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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Hogeyhead on February 29, 2016, 12:52:56 AM
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So I have several always on enchanted items, however I've been looking, and it seems that that rule has (possibly) been removed. I'm sure this is old hat, and has been asked before, however if you will indulge me and tell me if I am or am not allowed to have always on items I would greatly appreciate it.
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You are not allowed to have always-on items. That was a Beta version rule that was changed before the release--you've just informed everyone here that you probably pirated the book you referenced, or someone did :P
I would absolutely NOT house-rule this back into the game.
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I don't have the physical book, my friend does. However it seems the PDF he had was old or pirated, I will need to speak to him about it. In any case I always thought the inconsistency was on the side of the physical book, since it was an old copy. It seems that was not the case.
Thank you for extending the benefit of the doubt so graciously.
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Well, in my experience the ratio of people with legit Beta test books versus people who pirated them is quite high. Sorry to offend. Welcome to the forum, and hope you enjoy your Dresden gaming!
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You are not allowed to have always-on items. That was a Beta version rule that was changed before the release--you've just informed everyone here that you probably pirated the book you referenced, or someone did :P
No worries Hogeyhead, I still have a (legitimate) beta but have always been too lazy to upgrade to the updated version.
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The amount of times the Beta has caused confusion based questions is staggering.
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Always On items are easily abuse-able, but in certain cases they're what makes the most sense(eg. Harry's armored coat).
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That's just an enchanted item used to
block defend. No reason for it to have to be an always on item.
EDITED block to say defend. Forgot how much of a difference there was in those two words in this game.
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While Harry's coat is narratively an "always on" item, so it would make sense to make it work that way, I'm really agreeing with the final book on not allowing any items to be always on, it's just way to powerful. Throw in an extra slot for frequency, along with a specialization, and you're not really likely to run out of uses in a session; worst case there's always to "extra uses for 1 stress" rule. Looking at the books, Harry doesn't rely on the coat all the time. It usually protects him from surprise hits, and the rest he brings up a shield for.
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Sigh. My sword for melee defense... I would need so many uses to account for one session, for some sessions.
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put duration in an armour item, so it lasts a few rounds after it's triggered
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That's just an enchanted item used to block defend. No reason for it to have to be an always on item.
EDITED block to say defend. Forgot how much of a difference there was in those two words in this game.
Harry's coat is equivalent to a reactive Armor:1-3 or 4 as the series goes on. It by no means replaces his defense roll (which is what a Block would do). There is no such thing as a "defense" item; you build Block items that can be used instead of a defense roll.
put duration in an armour item, so it lasts a few rounds after it's triggered
I don't allow this, personally. "Reactive" items burn up one use on a failed defense but have no duration. If you want duration on that Block/Armor, I require a full action to activate.
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I don't allow this, personally. "Reactive" items burn up one use on a failed defense but have no duration. If you want duration on that Block/Armor, I require a full action to activate.
My thoughts exactly.
Though this whole "always on" thing, especially for armor stuff has me confused quite a bit. The game offers mundane gear with weapon and armor rating and doesn't require you to take a stunt for that. Yet something like Harry's coat, which could be seen as a fancy way of doing a kevlar vest, needs some amount of refresh.
Going by that, the only logical step for a wizard would be to wear mundane armor of some kind and some enchanted block together, for maximum protection. Yet, this would run counter what we see in the book, where Harry just relies on his coat. And why wouldn't he? It's a hell of a lot cooler for a wizard to do, yet mechanically, an armor:2 kevlar vest would be cheaper than an armor:2 enchanted coat. And it is always on.
This feels like something that needs fixing. Especially since the values for mundane armor and weapons are kind of random and don't hinge on anything. A wizard is limited by his skills. A mundane is only limited by the GM saying "no" at a more or less arbitrary point.
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Yet something like Harry's coat, which could be seen as a fancy way of doing a kevlar vest, needs some amount of refresh.
Not necessarily. You can use the kevlar vest rules for Harry's jacket. Wouldn't even be a houserule.
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Not necessarily. You can use the kevlar vest rules for Harry's jacket. Wouldn't even be a houserule.
Yeah...this...
(http://1.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com/50/27/0d41808f60af8871fa122b3b0f37ab1b.gif)
EDIT: Though, it was brought to my attention that there is a distinct advantage to being able to walk into a place in an enchanted hoodie versus a kevlar vest. I'm maybe thinking you still have to spend a single EI slot on one of these items, but that instead of traditional math you can just have an magic item that functions exactly like a mundane one.
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There are probably places you can walk into with the vest where the hoodie would be inappropriate, though.
My inclination would be to say that the hoodie is harder to get than the vest, and not as protective as similarly hard-to-get mundane armour.
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Not necessarily. You can use the kevlar vest rules for Harry's jacket. Wouldn't even be a houserule.
Sure, that was where I was going with this. It kind of seems like a houserule though, as magical effects have specific rules attached to them, so I would be inclined to use those first, at least when I'm fairly new to the game.
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I don't see what Duration is an issue. Mundane Armour 2 is a resource 4 or 5 purchase? Always on armour.
An Armour 2 item that lasts for 2 exchanges is the same cost (Power 5). And it's affected by a threshold. And adding duration is part of the game.
I suppose there could see balance issues if you allow full blocks with duration, given that crafting can give ridiculous numbers. Block 8; for 3 exchanges could give a wizard a huge advantage or, even, make them unassailable and you can probably get that in a Chest Deep game. Although, there's precedence in the book where Harry creates a crystal, when broken, that protects Molly and Thomas for the whole scene. But getting that kind of Power out of an item at Chest deep will, probably, take most of your foci. In a submerged game, I think block 8 is less of an issue to overcome.
But, then again, this is coming from a guy who has taken crafting foci out of his games, so massive, impenetrable blocks is less of an issue.
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I don't see what Duration is an issue. Mundane Armour 2 is a resource 4 or 5 purchase? Always on armour.
An Armour 2 item that lasts for 2 exchanges is the same cost (Power 5). And it's affected by a threshold. And adding duration is part of the game.
I suppose there could see balance issues if you allow full blocks with duration, given that crafting can give ridiculous numbers. Block 8; for 3 exchanges could give a wizard a huge advantage or, even, make them unassailable and you can probably get that in a Chest Deep game. Although, there's precedence in the book where Harry creates a crystal, when broken, that protects Molly and Thomas for the whole scene. But getting that kind of Power out of an item at Chest deep will, probably, take most of your foci. In a submerged game, I think block 8 is less of an issue to overcome.
But, then again, this is coming from a guy who has taken crafting foci out of his games, so massive, impenetrable blocks is less of an issue.
Hm, reasonable points.
As far as the Crystal item--I consider that more as justification for that group to be able to justify Conceding the conflict while staying on the island, since they were completely removed from combat by activating it. Probably would build it as a Maneuver that you tag for effect.
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Okay! So two questions. 1: I have a lore of 5 and a specialization in item power. Could I make a sword that gave me +3 to weaponry (or whatever) and then use 3 shifts for duration making it last 4 full turn thingys (whatever they are called in this system I can never remember). Then spend another enchanted item slot to make the item usable for four rounds, three times per session?
Question 2: Lets say I have My Lore at 5 and my specialization in item power, and I craft all my items. Great. Now what happens if I then use a minor milestone to switch my Lore to 4? I assume if the reverse happened my items wouldn't automatically get stronger (say I did it in a session that lasted 2-3 hours in game and the previous session lead directly in, and the next followed directly), so if I lose a point of lore do my items automatically weaken?
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The advantage of the enchanted items is you can take them places you couldn't bring a flak jacket -- plus, Harry's coat covers him from neck to ankles, while a bullet proof fest only covers the chest, stomach and back.
Hell, I've had players whose armor items were things like necklaces, even.
They can also be much, much more powerful than mundane protection. A heavy-duty bomb suit is probably Armor:3, 4 at the most, and it's bulky, obvious and unwieldy.
A wizard or crafter with enough specializations and Lore could be just as protected wearing a windbreaker.
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Okay! So two questions. 1: I have a lore of 5 and a specialization in item power. Could I make a sword that gave me +3 to weaponry (or whatever) and then use 3 shifts for duration making it last 4 full turn thingys (whatever they are called in this system I can never remember). Then spend another enchanted item slot to make the item usable for four rounds, three times per session?
Question 2: Lets say I have My Lore at 5 and my specialization in item power, and I craft all my items. Great. Now what happens if I then use a minor milestone to switch my Lore to 4? I assume if the reverse happened my items wouldn't automatically get stronger (say I did it in a session that lasted 2-3 hours in game and the previous session lead directly in, and the next followed directly), so if I lose a point of lore do my items automatically weaken?
Q1
enchanted items do not give you a bonus to a skill. They replace a skill check.
So your weapons roll would be the power of your enchanted item. (no dice roll). So a power 5 weapons skill replacement would be an accuracy 5 attack with whatever weapon you're using. It's good for a single roll, then it goes away.
Q2.
Each session, you are assumed to 'refresh' your items. so the items value would change to reflect your New Lore skill. That said, a GM might allow any unused slots to stay at their former values (for better or worse)
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Q1
enchanted items do not give you a bonus to a skill. They replace a skill check.
So your weapons roll would be the power of your enchanted item. (no dice roll). So a power 5 weapons skill replacement would be an accuracy 5 attack with whatever weapon you're using. It's good for a single roll, then it goes away.
Not that I don't believe you, I do (unfortunately), however could someone confirm this? You do not get a bonus to a skill roll (it would have been nice if that was more explicit in the book, oh well). What about armor? That's an object, so does the magic not stack with the existing armor, or could you say have an armor of 1 and a magic bonus of +2 and get three? Or would the magic just make it 2 negating the items inherent protection for a superior (magic) armor rating. I would just like to be sure about these points before I bring it up at the next session.
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Okay! So two questions. 1: I have a lore of 5 and a specialization in item power. Could I make a sword that gave me +3 to weaponry (or whatever) and then use 3 shifts for duration making it last 4 full turn thingys (whatever they are called in this system I can never remember). Then spend another enchanted item slot to make the item usable for four rounds, three times per session?
Given your example here, I don't think the rules really support duration separate from uses. While there isn't anything in the rules that prohibits duration, allowing it seems to allow a crafter to double dip . . . as your example above shows. You create a multiplicative effect turning what should be around 18-20 shifts of effect into 36 shifts of effect (3 shifts for 4 exchanges 3 times), and no stress spent.
I think duration is meant to be modeled by uses. A person can always narrate the effect as something continuous though despite its mechanical application. Even Harry's duster has limits. When it runs out of uses, maybe the duster's limits were exceeded or things sneaked through an open fold.
Question 2: Lets say I have My Lore at 5 and my specialization in item power, and I craft all my items. Great. Now what happens if I then use a minor milestone to switch my Lore to 4? I assume if the reverse happened my items wouldn't automatically get stronger (say I did it in a session that lasted 2-3 hours in game and the previous session lead directly in, and the next followed directly), so if I lose a point of lore do my items automatically weaken?
That would be up to the GM. Narrative justification could be arranged to allow for the increased or decreased effect. Or, because it affects something static, the GM could ask that your skill change be delayed until your character has the time to work on his/her items.
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Not that I don't believe you, I do (unfortunately), however could someone confirm this? You do not get a bonus to a skill roll (it would have been nice if that was more explicit in the book, oh well). What about armor? That's an object, so does the magic not stack with the existing armor, or could you say have an armor of 1 and a magic bonus of +2 and get three? Or would the magic just make it 2 negating the items inherent protection for a superior (magic) armor rating. I would just like to be sure about these points before I bring it up at the next session.
Armor doesn't stack with other sources of armor, regardless of the combination of Toughness, mundane armor, or magic Armor.
And yes, I can confirm Taran is right about skill replacement spells--they replace your skill for a roll, not add a bonus. This may be THE most mistaken part of the rules, no thanks to Evil Hat's bad potion examples. So-called "skill replacement spells" are just applying the fact that you can use Thaumaturgy to create a spell whose Power substitutes for a skill roll. Substitute being the key word there.
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I got beat by a few people but since my post is done...
For armour, you don't stack the bonuses. You just take the highest value. I think there's an exception to that rule with one of the Endurance stunts that lets you have armour against blunt attacks. That's the only case I know of being able to stack armour.
Skill replacement...man...
I'm not sure where it specifically says you don't get bonuses. There's been a few threads where the developers said as much, I think. The non-beta book probably clarifies it. You definitely can not add bonuses to skills.
The exception would be creating an aspect. You could have a 6 shift item create 2 aspects which you can tag. Which, RAW, is acceptable but many GM's ban it or restrict it. The reason is at higher levels, you can have an enchanted item give you 4 aspects which you can tag willy nilly. Gaining 4 aspects for a single action is powerful. Not just the +2 tags, but also the re-rolls and the narrative power it can extend.
I think, in one game I'm playing, we ruled that you could create multiple aspects but you could only tag them one/turn for given roll...or something.
Given your example here, I don't think the rules really support duration separate from uses. While there isn't anything in the rules that prohibits duration, allowing it seems to allow a crafter to double dip . . . as your example above shows. You create a multiplicative effect turning what should be around 18-20 shifts of effect into 36 shifts of effect (3 shifts for 4 exchanges 3 times), and no stress spent.
The other thing to remember is that thaumatugry is meant to achieve a specific result/goal. Like making a curse, or answering a question with a divination, there's no need for duration...it either succeeds or it doesn't. It's the same for a weapons attack spell. Once you attack, the spell works (you hit) or it doesn't (you miss). But then it ends. So duration doesn't come into play. You can't make your weapons skill +10 for 5 exchanges with a single spell.
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Alright guys thanks a lot. Actually I originally thought that enchanted items din't provide bonuses based on what I had read, but I was overruled by my GM, who read the same (physical) book differently I suppose. This clarifies everything about enchanted items. Just one question about armor while we're on the subject. Does the armor bonus from inhuman (or otherwise) toughness stack with actual armor, or is it like the magic items?
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I'm not sure where it specifically says you don't get bonuses.
It doesn't specifically say you can't get bonuses anywhere because it shouldn't have to. Thaumaturgy outlines how a spell is built and can replace a skill--there is no provision for how to make a spell to give a bonus to a skill, whereas the mechanics are in place to replace it for a roll--the Contest rules. The only place where bonuses to skills w/ magic is discussed is in the potion examples, which are god-awful and shouldn't be referenced, period. If you want to get several rolls in a row replaced, then you have to add the replacement for each roll up--for instance, if you wanted three Fight replacement rolls at Great (+4) you wouldn't need just 4 power +2 shifts for more duration, you'd need 4 power x 3 rolls = 12 shifts.
I think we 'discovered' this a couple months ago, but this is the only way you can get multiple replaced skill rolls with one spell.
The non-beta book probably clarifies it.
It does not, unfortunately.
Does the armor bonus from inhuman (or otherwise) toughness stack with actual armor, or is it like the magic items?
Not per the RAW, no. Armor doesn't stack with other armor, excepting the one blunt damage stunt.
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It doesn't specifically say you can't get bonuses anywhere because it shouldn't have to. Thaumaturgy outlines how a spell is built and can replace a skill--there is no provision for how to make a spell to give a bonus to a skill, whereas the mechanics are in place to replace it for a roll--the Contest rules. The only place where bonuses to skills w/ magic is discussed is in the potion examples, which are god-awful and shouldn't be referenced, period. If you want to get several rolls in a row replaced, then you have to add the replacement for each roll up--for instance, if you wanted three Fight replacement rolls at Great (+4) you wouldn't need just 4 power +2 shifts for more duration, you'd need 4 power x 3 rolls = 12 shifts.
Wait. Does this mean that veils created by potions only last one round? Or that what if I want a veil at say 4 for say 4 rounds I would need 16 shifts of power? I think the rules specify otherwise. A veil replaces a roll of stealth... Or does this mean that the 1shift duration thing only applies to evocation? If so what about anchored wards? I would appreciate clarification.
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Wait I've re-read your post and I realize I misunderstood.
Lets say then that I have a magic item that replaces my initiative x frequency per session. Does each frequency last a scene (say an entire fight) or a round? So if x is 4 and the fight lasts 5 rounds on the fifth round the item would be used up.
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Wait I've re-read your post and I realize I misunderstood.
Lets say then that I have a magic item that replaces my initiative x frequency per session. Does each frequency last a scene (say an entire fight) or a round? So if x is 4 and the fight lasts 5 rounds on the fifth round the item would be used up.
Hm, well, this is an interesting question. Technically, Initiative isn't a roll. And it's referenced once per conflict, in a way, when you set up init the first time. I dunno, I could see you going either way on this, allowing one 'use' to last a combat or allowing it to last one use per exchange...
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Whatever ruling you'd make for a thaumaturgical initiative-replacing spell ought to apply to the item as well.
Personally, I'd have it last a scene.
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Same with the veil, except they can be handled as evocations or as thaumaturgy. It all depends on how you build the item with this one. If you build it to act as an evocation block vs. attacks using a veil, then it lasts for the length of one action. If you build it as a thaumaturgic block vs. discovery, then it would last for a scene or until the GM declares it pierced. But each must obey the rules of its respective power: evocation or thaumaturgy.
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Wait. Does this mean that veils created by potions only last one round? Or that what if I want a veil at say 4 for say 4 rounds I would need 16 shifts of power? I think the rules specify otherwise. A veil replaces a roll of stealth... Or does this mean that the 1shift duration thing only applies to evocation? If so what about anchored wards? I would appreciate clarification.
This can work as a stealth skill replacement. This works nice if you only have single task to complete: sneak by the guards. They get an alertness and it has to beat the Power of your item. If you succeed, you get by - end of task/conflict. If there are multiple rolls, a block on perception/veil is best. If it's in a drawn out conflict, it should probably have duration and last 1 exchange/shift. If you are outside of a conflict, veils can last as long as they are narrative appropriate (since 'exchanges' don't really apply out of combat. So it could last for several minutes, a whole scene, etc...and be useful against multiple alertness rolls. There's a comment in the margins on the evocation 'veils' section of Your story where Billy suggests evo veils should last a scene.
Wait I've re-read your post and I realize I misunderstood.
Lets say then that I have a magic item that replaces my initiative x frequency per session. Does each frequency last a scene (say an entire fight) or a round? So if x is 4 and the fight lasts 5 rounds on the fifth round the item would be used up.
Initiative is only applicable for the first round before the fight starts. I'd make it an alertness skill replacement or make it an 'alertness' related aspect.
The skill replacement can be used from anything to noticing an ambush, initiative, spotting something important. But it only lasts for one use of the skill roll.
A maneuver would give you an aspect. You can use it to boost your initiative by 2, reroll your initiative, maybe even give you a temporary minor power (like the initiative boost from inhuman speed) but that last thing depends on the generosity of your GM.
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Whatever ruling you'd make for a thaumaturgical initiative-replacing spell ought to apply to the item as well.
Personally, I'd have it last a scene.
The problem is that my Gm has ruled that thalmaturgy is incapable of self buffing for balance reasons, and the fact that Dresden never does it in the books...
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I wouldn't say he never does it. He, often, doesn't actually have TIME to do it, though.
The little Chicago ritual was, in a sense, a self-buff. It was information gathering, which gives you aspect which you can tag for a variety of things.
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The problem is that my Gm has ruled that thalmaturgy is incapable of self buffing for balance reasons, and the fact that Dresden never does it in the books...
Dresden isn't a good example of what's possible with Thaumaturgy.
He also does self-buff in the books, notably the Bear Buckle Booster he used in Fool Moon. It let him temporarily shake off jumping out of a van moving at thirty miles an hour onto asphalt--that's pretty buffy.
You can decide it's difficult--it generally is--but "no self-buffing" is silly. By the RAW it is part of Biomancy, at minimum, and the Paranet Papers expands on that more by suggesting you can self-buff with evocation. "Balance" is achieved when the GM does their job and adjudicates Thaumaturgy reasonably. It's not like you can spend 24/7 in your lab working on these spells, constantly keep buffing spells in place around your person w/o an Enchanted Item, necessarily afford all the ingredients you need, etc.
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Dresden isn't a good example of what's possible with Thaumaturgy.
He also does self-buff in the books, notably the Bear Buckle Booster he used in Fool Moon. It let him temporarily shake off jumping out of a van moving at thirty miles an hour onto asphalt--that's pretty buffy.
Minor correction -- he used a potion for that. The belt buckle is in Blood Rites, just before the scuffle with the Black Court.
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The problem is that my Gm has ruled that thalmaturgy is incapable of self buffing for balance reasons, and the fact that Dresden never does it in the books...
You're out of luck, then. Enchanted items are a form of thaumaturgy.
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Well items are fine, just not rituals, however we used the rules on those wrong (the rule where every roll replacement requires full shifts, not just +1 per use like duration in evocation). I'm going to bring it up when I see him tonight.
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for the sword example you could do +3 to the weapon to get the bonus added on there are examples in the book for that
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for the sword example you could do +3 to the weapon to get the bonus added on there are examples in the book for that
Yeah...those examples are wrong. Ignore the entire Spellcasting Examples section of the book if you plan on using the RAW for magic, because they don't follow any of the rules set up in the previous chapters. You would either create a ritual that granted you multiple aspects, or you'd do a "skill replacement" spell for a 1-roll "simple contest."
A skill replacement spell doesn't give you a bonus to a skill. Whatever the complexity of the spell is "replaces" your skill for a single roll. If you wanted multiple replaced rolls you'd need to multiply the complexity.
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so magic items don't add to a skill they replace it, but the ant red court venom potion actually says
"Effect: Grants a bonus to resisting the addictive saliva of a Red Court vampire equal to the potion’s strength in shifts. "
so is the example wrong or can potions add to a skill?
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A lot of the samples don't follow their own rules. Some of them are cool but they are rarely persistent. For the potion you mention it would be better to either do a full replacement or a maneuver potion that gives you an aspect to tag on your roll.