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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: fictionfan on October 05, 2015, 11:16:09 AM

Title: Wizard of the 4 fundamental forces.
Post by: fictionfan on October 05, 2015, 11:16:09 AM
For Harry Dresden the symbol of magic is a pentagram representing the 5 fundamental forces (fire, air, earth, water and spirt) contained by human will.  The thing is those forces are what alchemists used to think were fundamental.  However the latest in (more) fundamental forces in physics today are The Strong nuclear Force, The Electromagnetic Force, The Weak nuclear Force and gravity.  Suppose you had a wizard who was raised from a tradition of physics instead of alchemy.  What could you do with refinement in those forces?  Also what should the symbol look like?

Also I want to mention I have no intention of making this a techo wizard.  It still hexs.  In fact the hexs might be worst because they involve small disruptions in the fundamental forces around him caused by unformed intentions.  Harry only seems to cause disruptions in the Electromagnetic Force.
Title: Re: Wizard of the 4 fundamental forces.
Post by: fictionfan on October 05, 2015, 12:44:42 PM
A Thaumaturgy ritual of the Strong nuclear Force might turn lead into gold.  Can't think of any evocations.  Or at least I can't think of any evocations where the area of effect (explosion) is smaller then the range.  Blowing yourself up only seems good for a death curse.
Title: Re: Wizard of the 4 fundamental forces.
Post by: Haru on October 05, 2015, 01:37:06 PM
The problem with this is that for most people, this is stuff that they simply can't comprehend, and even if they do, it's on a purely intellectual level. Which is fine for doing science, but magic always has an emotional component, and that's very hard to generate with this set of "elements".

For example, you could try to envision gravity as a quantum entanglement of the 11 dimensions bound by a string of infinite universes in a Möbius strip to do your spells. Or you could envision it as things fall down, the ground is down, the ground is made of earth, therefore earth is my mnemonic device for gravity.

Because, like a lot of other stuff, that's all they are, things to help your brain shape a spell in a way you want it. If you have to think about moving around energy, it's going to be hard, because that's a hard concept to visualize. If you imagine "fire", that's a hell of a lot easier to do. And with the 4 elements, you've got the basics of what you might want to do covered, especially if you give them a more abstract component as well, like entropy and water.

Now that's not to say that your system can't work, but you'd have to make a strong case for why your wizard has an easier time using a system like that to shape his spells than pretty much anything easier. Especially if you start out as a young apprentice, you have no chance of grasping those concepts in the first place. But linking the elements to concepts is easy. Wind is moving air, we've all felt a strong headwind at least once, you can work with those experiences and funnel them into your spells. You don't have anything like that for physics magic based on what you proposed.

Now a few things I could still see work. Gravity would be one of them. Electricity would be another. I would split electromagnetic forces into electricity and magnetism, incidentally, because again, it's easier to grasp. After that, Light could be another thing. Sure, it's electromagnetic waves again, and you can use it for that, radiation, infrared, etc., but as a fundamental concept, it's easier to take light and stretch the wavelength than to come up with radio waves on the spot.

I would leave the atomic forces right out. That's way way above anything you can reasonably shape into a usable thought, I think.
Title: Re: Wizard of the 4 fundamental forces.
Post by: Taran on October 05, 2015, 02:17:34 PM
Quote
Also what should the symbol look like?

Instead of a pentagram, use this:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Wizard of the 4 fundamental forces.
Post by: Sanctaphrax on October 05, 2015, 03:14:01 PM
I think such a wizard would be really limited. Earth already covers gravity, electromagnetism, and more. And the nuclear forces seem kinda useless for anything other than disintegrating things, blowing them up, or soaking them in radioactivity.
Title: Re: Wizard of the 4 fundamental forces.
Post by: dragoonbuster on October 05, 2015, 04:34:18 PM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on October 05, 2015, 03:14:01 PM
I think such a wizard would be really limited. Earth already covers gravity, electromagnetism, and more. And the nuclear forces seem kinda useless for anything other than disintegrating things, blowing them up, or soaking them in radioactivity.

Electromagnetic waves could carry information long distances at the speed of light.

Magnetic fields could be amplified to the degree that they deflect anything through diamagnetization (not that Earth or Air doesn't already cover this).


But yeah, I'm with Haru and Sanctaphrax. Probably not the most useful paradigm. If you were to go along this route I like Haru's suggestions of Electricity, Magnetism, Gravity and maybe Light. I should also note that few people in the Dresdenverse seem to learn magic as an adult (if they haven't learned by then, they've probably lost their power like Charity), after the point where you'd even have a chance of grasping these concepts reasonably; most people are learning their evocation basics in their teens. Interesting thought experiment, though!
Title: Re: Wizard of the 4 fundamental forces.
Post by: Quantus on October 05, 2015, 05:57:01 PM
If it were me Id try to make a bridge concept between the Magic and Scientific pardigms you are mixing there. 


One way is to take your four fundamental forces and just assign them a helenic element equivalent  So Gravity=Earth, Eletromagnitism=Air, Strong and Weak are Fire and Water...Or something. 

But that doesnt fit too great, imo.  So another way to go about it might be to assign the four elements a Phase of Matter (Solid, Liquid, Gas, Plasma) and then explain your 'spell' effects using the four fundamental forces; most weak and strong will fall into Plasma flavor most of the time, for example, but various lasers and high energy radiation/beam attacks are well within possibility, and they dont have to have 'Fallout' issues depending on the radiation your' talking about.  X-ray or infrared vision would be on the table, and you could even go so far as to "hear" Radio transmissions under certain circumstances.  In the last Id go with either a short term spell, or an unusual psychology (like teh character in the TV show Alphas, for example).

If I were going that route, Id also probably rank each of the 4 fundamental forces on ease of use, so that they have an inherent scale.  So in this "school" of magic, Gravtational forces are the easiest to work with starting out (apprentice level), then you graduate to Eletromagnetic, and only masters can manipulate the Weak and Strong force.  The Weak and Strong force could then reasonably scale to the truly ridiculous levels of transforming one object or element to another up to and including large scale Fullmetal style Alchemy, or even completely annihilating something from existence.  Maybe a mastery of Weak Force lets you transform a Real World object back into primordial ectoplasm?  Maybe with Strong Force you can for all intents and purposes Create matter from nothing, limited only by size and energy source?

Also, Somebody that is unusually adept at manipulating Electromagnetic energy with any degree of subtlety should probably get a break on the Murphionic effects on radio and/or electronics, in the same way Water Mages have less issues with working over open water. 
Title: Re: Wizard of the 4 fundamental forces.
Post by: dragoonbuster on October 05, 2015, 07:40:02 PM
Quote from: Quantus on October 05, 2015, 05:57:01 PM
Maybe a mastery of Weak Force lets you transform a Real World object back into primordial ectoplasm?  Maybe with Strong Force you can for all intents and purposes Create matter from nothing, limited only by size and energy source?

Truly ridiculous energies involved here. To create matter from pure energy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_creation) you can't just create an electron--you have to create an electron/positron pair. This follows for all matter; you must create your matter's antimatter equivalent in the process...and you'd need to make sure your matter and antimatter stay separate, contain the antimatter, then convert the anti-matter back to pure energy, and dissipate that energy safely...And you'd have to put in a huge amount of energy to do that. Even the most powerful wizards would likely come close to killing themselves just to create tiny amounts of matter. And if you lose control once, the resulting matter-antimatter reaction would keep you from trying a second time.
Title: Re: Wizard of the 4 fundamental forces.
Post by: Quantus on October 05, 2015, 08:12:24 PM

Taking it a step further, because Im liking this idea.  Imagine you have (4) levels of practitioner in the School of Primordial Energy (Sounds better in it's native language, trust me).   

The first level is based on Gravity.  It's initiates focus on drills and exercises to expand their perceptions (ie "Feel The Universe").  In reality (still fictional) they are likely sensing energies far more complex than literal Gravitation, and are interpreting it through an Astrological model. 

They'd also spend a lot of time on various Mind Over Matter drills to enhance their physical capabilities with grvity-based kinetomancy, increased balance and agility through grvitations manipulation, etc. Gross grvity concentration like Harry is possible but 'heavy' and generally seen as a crass application.  They can become low-level Jedi ninja's, thereby.  Flight can be possible, but takes care and practice and luck to survive training. 

The Second level is the Electromagnetic Force, and this would be the Bread and Butter of the School. Here you get X-ray and/or thermal vision, holomancy and veils, Lasers and Microwaves and other High-energy Attacks, Radio-senses, Magnetic evocations, etc.

The third level and forth Levels will be the two levels of Mastery corresponding to the Weak and Strong Force.  These would be more esoteric in effect, so you would have to define some more clear cut effects that require one or the other.  Some example abilites like Decaying an object into primordial ectoplasm, complete restructuring of an object at the molecular level, or Creating an object from scratch could all work.  As a general guideline Id define Weak forces as capable of Transmutation Effects, while Strong Forces would be actual Creation Effects; thus as a further in-world limitation you could easily declare that Strong Force manipulation of that kind requires Soulfire. 



Quote from: dragoonbuster on October 05, 2015, 07:40:02 PM
Truly ridiculous energies involved here. To create matter from pure energy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_creation) you can't just create an electron--you have to create an electron/positron pair. This follows for all matter; you must create your matter's antimatter equivalent in the process...and you'd need to make sure your matter and antimatter stay separate, contain the antimatter, then convert the anti-matter back to pure energy, and dissipate that energy safely...And you'd have to put in a huge amount of energy to do that. Even the most powerful wizards would likely come close to killing themselves just to create tiny amounts of matter. And if you lose control once, the resulting matter-antimatter reaction would keep you from trying a second time.
Meh, I wave Magic at it in that case, for the same reasons I dont calculate the caloric requirements of Harry's Fire Magic, or ask about the natural mechanisms behind Force magic.  We are only a little sure that's how it works in Nature, and so I wouldnt restrict magic to that same sort of Hard-line Symmetry.  If that sort of balance were more of a world-theme, something like every Fire spell cause an equal Chilling effect, etc. then I might get behind the limitation more. 

But regardless, from both a game balance POV and DV universe explanation for the discrepancy, the Soulfire requirement stated above should address the issue.