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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Taran on April 07, 2015, 12:13:50 AM

Title: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 07, 2015, 12:13:50 AM
Healing wounds and medical treatment is dealt with, pretty much, narratively in DFRPG.

You need 'an excuse to start the healing process' and, after that, consequences go away based on their severity and the amount of time that lapses (hours, days, weeks - or scenes, sessions, scenarios, milestones).

The doctor stunt lets you treat someone and give them 'an excuse to start the healing process' - but it doesn't actually heal wounds.

For the same refresh, you could take a recovery power or, for no refresh, you can take Wizard's Constitution.

I'd like to figure out a fair way to allow 'mundane' treatment affect consequences.  This thread is to brain-storm ways.



First off, I don't think it should be as powerful as a recovery power - or even equal to a recovery power - especially since you'll be able to use it on other people.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking of a tiered stunt - or a stunt in conjunction with a skill roll with a difficulty based on the consequence.

I'm thinking that, instead of curing a consequence, maybe it down-grades it?  I'm not sure if that makes it more powerful.  Used in conjunction with a recovery power, it could be very useful. 

Should it even stack with recovery?  Or would you take the better of the two?

Something like this:

minor consequence: Example: treating minor bleeding; helping someone recover from being dazed; shooting them with a pain-killer:   as a full action, with a roll of 'x' you can totally cure a minor consequence on a person.  You can do this 1/scene/person.  The roll can be resisted or blocked by someone actively trying to prevent you from providing first aid.

Moderate consequence:  Example: minor surgery; resetting a bone; lots of stitches:  requires one scene and a roll of 'x' and reasonably calm surroundings. Down-grade a consequence to a mild.  The new consequence must indicate that it's already a wound that has been mended and cannot, therefore, be removed with regular medical treatment.  Only a recovery power or time can help.

Severe consequence: requires a scene, a roll of 'x' and medical facilities.  Downgrades to a moderate.  Down-graded consequence can't be fixed via mundane methods.

Extreme:  Example: reconstructive surgery.  Provides an excuse to heal or re-name an extreme.  (maybe let's you do so a bit sooner than usual?



I'm just trying to get the juices flowing...feel free to comment, critique or add whatever.


EDIT:

What about something like this:  it down-grades the consequence, but if you do something to risk aggravating the wound before it would fully healed, you have to make a scholarship vs (the attack?) or have it revert back to the more severe consequence....or something to that effect.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: sdfds68 on April 07, 2015, 12:42:40 AM
How about, instead of a full downgrade, a successful Scholarship roll + Doctor stunt reduces the time of recovery somewhat, but not as much as it would by reducing the severity of the consequence?

For example, a moderate would be reduced from lasting until the end of the next session to three or four scenes. Still significantly longer than a mild consequence, but much better than going without medical attention.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Haru on April 07, 2015, 12:43:20 AM
As you might know, I'm not a big fan of healing in Fate. It's easily adjusted for any given game by speeding up the general recovery rate, if it becomes an issue. In the Dresden Files especially, healing goes a bit against the feeling of the novels for me. It's a few days of getting your ass kicked until you finally get a good kick in yourself, followed by a long period of rest and recuperation. Healing kind of takes things out of that rhythm for me. Not to mention that I personally don't think healing scenes like this are all that interesting (unless they can be combined with something else, as Harry sometimes does).

That being said, I certainly see the benefit. However, I feel like downgrading a consequence is kind of powerful.

A consequence does 2 things: It gives an opponent an advantage against you and it lowers your ability to get hit in a conflict. I think the second part is part of the core pacing design that should not be messed with on this level, reasons above. The first part could work pretty well. So instead of downgrading a consequence, a successful roll against the consequence would allow you to "blank" the consequence. It would still be there and it would need to heal, but for a scene it can't be used (invoked or compelled) against the character in any way.
That's practically what I think happens when Butters patches Harry up and puts him on painkillers. Other things, like Thomas drugging Harry with sleeping pills, could be a way to induce a refresh and push the healing meter one tick further.

I'm not a fan of the doctor stunt myself. I usually allow people to treat wounds in first aid, as I consider fate characters competent like that. Instead, a doctor stunt could give a +2 on the above roll, for example.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 07, 2015, 05:44:50 AM
Brainstorming...

There are three levels of medical treatment possible.

The first, with difficulty 3 for moderate consequences and 5 for severe consequences, renames the consequence and starts healing. BROKEN LEG becomes LEG IN A CAST, EVISCERATED becomes STOMACHFUL OF STITCHES, and so on.

The second, with difficulty 6 for moderate consequences and 8 for severe consequences, speeds Recovery. Each consequence has two possible durations, one with this level of treatment and one without.

The third, with difficulty 8 for moderate consequences and 12 for severe consequences, suppresses the consequence. The slot is still full, but the consequence is gone. It can't be invoked or compelled, and the effects of earlier invokes/compels are generally ended.

Mild consequences are too minor to bother with this way. Extreme consequences are too unique to put standard rules on.

In order to do any of this, you need a medical facility and "Medical Treatment" trapping on the skill you're using. Doctor expands Scholarship's existing medical trapping into that, other stunts might add it to another skill.

It isn't possible to do this with thaumaturgy unless you have a Medical Treatment trapping on one of your skills.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Lawgiver on April 07, 2015, 02:36:17 PM
Didn't sped a ton of time working this out but I think the basic seed is there:

Broken legs in a cast don’t let you run like normal. Broken arms in casts don’t let you lift and such like normal. A belly full of stitches is still vulnerable to a solid blow. There are signs of a person’s debilitation due to physical injury. I’m sure we can think of similar ‘signs’ for mental and even social damage. Prosecuting a ‘wound’ (whether physical, mental or social) can still affect the character – if the opponent knows to do it.  I would suggest leaving the consequence in place as is (that broken leg is still broken). Just allow the treatment to temporarily mitigate some of the negatives.

Treat a consequence as though it were one less for the purpose of dice rolls (a -6 Severe is treated as a -4 Moderate after treatment), but it’s still there until the proper time elapses. Opponents can still invoke/tag it for use if they know it’s there (obviously the guy that did it would but others might not). Some sign might show – limping, bloody bandages dangling out a shirt sleeve, the PC flinches or cringes in the presence of open flame bigger than a match, etc. The opponent can do an Assessment to figure it out and then prosecute the consequence.

If they manage to do stress/damage at all to the affected area (doesn’t even have to be deliberate, they could get lucky too – and it would have to be pretty precise – two stress to the shoulder won’t damage that wounded leg any further), the dice roll mitigation is lost (cast shattered, stitches pulled out, character has PTSD flashbacks, whatever) and the character reverts to full handicap at the appropriate level until further treatment can be received.

If the stressed area has not yet had time to decline to the next lower level, more damage now can (and maybe should?) bump it up to the next higher level – thus Moderate becomes Severe (simple fracture becomes compound, etc.). If it has had time to recover at least one level (Severe down to Moderate) and it’s damaged again, then it rises right back up to the appropriate level based on the ‘injury’ and recovery has to start over – and at better treatment than applied originally must be used to let it begin.

If the stress/damage to that already wounded area is enough to take the character out (a ‘knockout punch’ or equivalent) then it increases on the scale to the next higher consequence (severe becomes extreme) and the character would need even more intensive medical treatment to justify beginning recovery. If it was already an extreme consequence, well… double the healing time? Saddle the character with a second horrid aspect to haunt them? Perhaps make the debilitation permanent? Your call...

(Note: For those with a more ‘grimdark’ game style it might mean death (bleed out, suicide, etc., just sayin’)
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 07, 2015, 04:07:45 PM
Treat a consequence as though it were one less for the purpose of dice rolls (a -6 Severe is treated as a -4 Moderate after treatment), but it’s still there until the proper time elapses.

...

If they manage to do stress/damage at all to the affected area...

What do you mean? Consequences don't affect dice rolls, and this game doesn't have hit locations.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Theogony_IX on April 07, 2015, 04:21:01 PM
I think Haru's point is on the right track in affecting the aspect applied by the consequence and not necessarily the recovery time.  A doctor can't make your bone mend faster, he or she can only make sure it mends well and make you more comfortable while it does.  The same is true for other physical injuries.

Also, a stunt that applies a broad effect allows a +1 bonus.  Being able to affect any physical injury is pretty broad, so the magnitude should only be around +1.  With that in mind, what if any tagged consequence that has been treated only provides a +1 bonus or short-lived effect rather than a +2 or lasting effect?

Another way to handle invokes for effect would be an opportunity to oppose the effect with an Endurance roll that you might not have gotten otherwise (the difficulty being the severity of the consequence invoked).  Changing the name of the consequence aspect would be a good way to keep track of what's been treated and what hasn't.

This begs the question, whether a hospital would provide the same effect.  I think there is some wiggle room there.  You can give your PCs something special in only allowing this to apply to their medicine, or you can apply it to all medical treatment.  If you want to keep it for your PCs or certain NPCs then the justification would be that these individuals know you're doing some rough activity and prepare your wounds for it, while a hospital does the minimum required for bed rest.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 07, 2015, 05:04:10 PM
Quote from: Haru
As you might know, I'm not a big fan of healing in Fate. It's easily adjusted for any given game by speeding up the general recovery rate, if it becomes an issue.

I don't necessarily want to speed up healing...I just want to have some kind of mechanical advantage for actually seeking medical help: whether that's going to the hospital, psychologist, paramedic, first aid.

I like the idea of getting rid of the ability to tag/invoke the consequence.  tags only happen in the scene the consequence is created (usually) - although, I'd allow someone to tag a consequence in a later scene if they hadn't already tagged it.

Invoking consequences with Fp's almost never comes up.

Quote from: Theogony
Also, a stunt that applies a broad effect allows a +1 bonus.  Being able to affect any physical injury is pretty broad, so the magnitude should only be around +1.  With that in mind, what if any tagged consequence that has been treated only provides a +1 bonus or short-lived effect rather than a +2 or lasting effect?

This is a good idea - and it's simple.  There's already a stunt that does this.  You could even include times when enemies tag for a re-roll and lock down one of the dice.  It doesn't really affect 'invokes for effect' but if you re-name the consequence, there'll be less leeway on what you can 'effect'.

Didn't sped a ton of time working this out but I think the basic seed is there:

Broken legs in a cast don’t let you run like normal. Broken arms in casts don’t let you lift and such like normal. A belly full of stitches is still vulnerable to a solid blow. There are signs of a person’s debilitation due to physical injury. I’m sure we can think of similar ‘signs’ for mental and even social damage. Prosecuting a ‘wound’ (whether physical, mental or social) can still affect the character – if the opponent knows to do it.  I would suggest leaving the consequence in place as is (that broken leg is still broken). Just allow the treatment to temporarily mitigate some of the negatives.

Treat a consequence as though it were one less for the purpose of dice rolls (a -6 Severe is treated as a -4 Moderate after treatment), but it’s still there until the proper time elapses. Opponents can still invoke/tag it for use if they know it’s there (obviously the guy that did it would but others might not). Some sign might show – limping, bloody bandages dangling out a shirt sleeve, the PC flinches or cringes in the presence of open flame bigger than a match, etc. The opponent can do an Assessment to figure it out and then prosecute the consequence.

If they manage to do stress/damage at all to the affected area (doesn’t even have to be deliberate, they could get lucky too – and it would have to be pretty precise – two stress to the shoulder won’t damage that wounded leg any further), the dice roll mitigation is lost (cast shattered, stitches pulled out, character has PTSD flashbacks, whatever) and the character reverts to full handicap at the appropriate level until further treatment can be received.

If the stressed area has not yet had time to decline to the next lower level, more damage now can (and maybe should?) bump it up to the next higher level – thus Moderate becomes Severe (simple fracture becomes compound, etc.). If it has had time to recover at least one level (Severe down to Moderate) and it’s damaged again, then it rises right back up to the appropriate level based on the ‘injury’ and recovery has to start over – and at better treatment than applied originally must be used to let it begin.

If the stress/damage to that already wounded area is enough to take the character out (a ‘knockout punch’ or equivalent) then it increases on the scale to the next higher consequence (severe becomes extreme) and the character would need even more intensive medical treatment to justify beginning recovery. If it was already an extreme consequence, well… double the healing time? Saddle the character with a second horrid aspect to haunt them? Perhaps make the debilitation permanent? Your call...

(Note: For those with a more ‘grimdark’ game style it might mean death (bleed out, suicide, etc., just sayin’)


I don't quite understand where you're going.  That said, I like the idea of having a treated wound getting worse.  I'm just not sure how best to do it without piles of bookkeeping.  If you use the method mentioned above, you could revert a consequence back to being tagged for a regular +2.

Brainstorming...

There are three levels of medical treatment possible.

The first, with difficulty 3 for moderate consequences and 5 for severe consequences, renames the consequence and starts healing. BROKEN LEG becomes LEG IN A CAST, EVISCERATED becomes STOMACHFUL OF STITCHES, and so on.

The second, with difficulty 6 for moderate consequences and 8 for severe consequences, speeds Recovery. Each consequence has two possible durations, one with this level of treatment and one without.

The third, with difficulty 8 for moderate consequences and 12 for severe consequences, suppresses the consequence. The slot is still full, but the consequence is gone. It can't be invoked or compelled, and the effects of earlier invokes/compels are generally ended.

This  kind of also touches on sdfds68's comment.

Would you create a longer recovery period from the books (when you don't get medical treatment)
Or shorten the current recovery period (if you do get medical treatment). 

The former would mitigate some of the pacing issues Haru has problems with.

Mild consequences are too minor to bother with this way. Extreme consequences are too unique to put standard rules on.

I think you should be able to mitigate the effects of a mild consequence.  In fact, they seem the easiest to do.  Even if  you don't heal it, you could always replace "fatigued" with "hopped up on adrenaline"  or something.  It also seems the most useful since, as I said, most consequences don't get invoked in later scenes - they just fill slots preventing you from soaking damage.  being able to prevent(or limit) a tag on a mild consequence seems like it would be useful but not game breaking if it didn't actually cure the consequence.

I agree with the Extreme, though.

In order to do any of this, you need a medical facility and "Medical Treatment" trapping on the skill you're using. Doctor expands Scholarship's existing medical trapping into that, other stunts might add it to another skill.

It isn't possible to do this with thaumaturgy unless you have a Medical Treatment trapping on one of your skills.

I especially like the thaumaturgy rule...it's basically a skill replacement ritual but you still need to have medical knowledge.  But scholarship automatically has that.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Lawgiver on April 07, 2015, 05:09:12 PM
What do you mean? Consequences don't affect dice rolls, and this game doesn't have hit locations.
What is the -6 of a Severe consequence apply to if not a dice roll at some point? If you're going to negotiate a barrier (like a fence or wall) that -6 goes against some appropriate skill/ability (like maybe Athletics). If you're at Good+3 that -6 puts you at -3 out the gate and it will take at least +3 on the dice to succeed.

With aid, that -6 Severe could get treated as a -4 so, in the above example,  your Good+3 is only at Poor-1 (pain has been reduced, range of motion improved, etc.) and the dice roll to succeed is a lot less onerous.

The character doesn't heal faster... he/she just doesn't suffer the full range of the negatives while recovering because of the treatment. If reinjured in that area the full range of the negatives are again applied (perhaps even increased if sufficiently nasty).

Harry's been through much of the same any # of times, an injury has him acting at reduced capacity (sometimes on the edge of complete debilitation). Treatment (stitches, painkillers, mental techniques, whatever) have restored a degree of competency he'd be without otherwise. But he's also been reinjured (another blow to the head after he's already concussed) and suffered further and sometimes worse debilitation as a result.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 07, 2015, 05:16:08 PM
What is the -6 of a Severe consequence apply to if not a dice roll at some point? If you're going to negotiate a barrier (like a fence or wall) that -6 goes against some appropriate skill/ability (like maybe Athletics). If you're at Good+3 that -6 puts you at -3 out the gate and it will take at least +3 on the dice to succeed.

With aid, that -6 Severe could get treated as a -4 so, in the above example,  your Good+3 is only at Poor-1 (pain has been reduced, range of motion improved, etc.) and the dice roll to succeed is a lot less onerous.

That's not what the -6 applies to.  The severe soaks up 6 stress from an attack.  After that, it works like an ordinary aspect.  So it could be invoked for effect to prevent you from climbing a fence, but it doesn't actually give you a numerical penalty to any skill rolls.

Or the effect could be to get a-6 to a roll - but it's still the realm of a compel.  So if that's how you want to negotiate the compel, you can do it that way.  But if you pay a FP to do that, the person gets a FP for their trouble.

The character doesn't heal faster... he/she just doesn't suffer the full range of the negatives while recovering because of the treatment. If reinjured in that area the full range of the negatives are again applied (perhaps even increased if sufficiently nasty).

Harry's been through much of the same any # of times, an injury has him acting at reduced capacity (sometimes on the edge of complete debilitation). Treatment (stitches, painkillers, mental techniques, whatever) have restored a degree of competency he'd be without otherwise. But he's also been reinjured (another blow to the head after he's already concussed) and suffered further and sometimes worse debilitation as a result.

Yeah...but these have been compels.

But you've made me think of an excellent way of doing this!

Medical treatment creates a maneuver aspect that sticks with the character.  They can tag the aspect to pay off a compel on an invoke of a consequence.  The quality of the maneuver must = the consequence.  Extra shifts(like every three shifts) could go towards extra tags
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Lawgiver on April 07, 2015, 05:27:30 PM
Or the effect could be to get a-6 to a roll - but it's still the realm of a compel.  So if that's how you want to negotiate the compel, you can do it that way.  But if you pay a FP to do that, the person gets a FP for their trouble.
I think this is more where I was trying to go. Sorry for muddy explanation(s). I'm not concerned if they get a FP, that's part of the game play anyway... and they're likely to need it if the bad guy is exploiting an injury for gain.

But you've made me think of an excellent way of doing this!

Medical treatment creates a maneuver aspect that sticks with the character.  They can tag the aspect to pay off a compel on an invoke of a consequence.  The quality of the maneuver must = the consequence.  Extra shifts(like every three shifts) could go towards extra tags
Actually that looks good; simple... almost elegant. I'll look into using that to see how it works out. Keep us posted on your own outcome(s).

And... you're welcome and...thank you?  ???

(I think I just got slapped with the Law of Unintended Consequences...)
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 07, 2015, 05:34:43 PM
Invoking consequences with Fp's almost never comes up.

As long as you're houseruling, you could remove the rule which gives you the FP that other people spend on invoking your Aspects against you. It's a terrible rule anyway, which serves only to prevent people from invoking each other's Aspects.

This is a good idea - and it's simple.

I don't think so. Tags have to be used almost immediately, so you'll never get treatment for that broken leg before the tag is gone one way or another.

Would you create a longer recovery period from the books (when you don't get medical treatment)
Or shorten the current recovery period (if you do get medical treatment).

Not sure. Maybe a bit of each.

I think you should be able to mitigate the effects of a mild consequence.  In fact, they seem the easiest to do.

By the time you get to the hospital or whatever, that mild consequence will be gone.

I think this is more where I was trying to go. Sorry for muddy explanation(s). I'm not concerned if they get a FP, that's part of the game play anyway... and they're likely to need it if the bad guy is exploiting an injury for gain.

Even if the Aspect is compelled, the numerical rating of the consequence doesn't affect anything. You can give a -13 penalty for a mild consequence, if you want, or a -1 for a severe.

Medical treatment creates a maneuver aspect that sticks with the character.  They can tag the aspect to pay off a compel on an invoke of a consequence.  The quality of the maneuver must = the consequence.  Extra shifts(like every three shifts) could go towards extra tags

Eh, I don't like the idea of adding yet more Aspects to everyone's sheet. And in the best-case scenario this rule would make nothing happen, which is kinda boring. But I guess it would work.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: PirateJack on April 07, 2015, 05:51:55 PM
I like the idea of making the consequence only give +1 when invoked/tagged.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: sdfds68 on April 07, 2015, 08:27:40 PM
Medical treatment creates a maneuver aspect that sticks with the character.  They can tag the aspect to pay off a compel on an invoke of a consequence.  The quality of the maneuver must = the consequence.  Extra shifts(like every three shifts) could go towards extra tags

That does seem like a solution in keeping the theme of DFRPG, but I feel like if a good alternative to wizards con and recovery powers isn't put into effect beyond maneuver aspects, we'll just wind up seeing more people putting those into their builds.

How about first aid specifically, just a Scholarship roll with no stunt required, provides maneuvers like the ones discussed, but a character with a stunt related healing is capable of doing something outright better, as long as they have some kind of operating theater and tools? That would make the Stunt worthwhile, and could actually fit in with the stunt rules as is by providing a new trapping for Scholarship.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Theogony_IX on April 07, 2015, 10:51:12 PM
This is a good idea - and it's simple.
I don't think so. Tags have to be used almost immediately, so you'll never get treatment for that broken leg before the tag is gone one way or another.

Okay, so theoretically it makes sense, but maybe it doesn't make practical sense.  How about opening up one shift of stress in a filled consequence slot?  After medical treatment, each treated consequence slot can soak up a single point of stress, but not more.  If a person fills that one shift, it's as if the consequence were brand new.  This means a free tag for whomever caused you to fill it, a new recovery process initiation, and a reset of the time needed to recover.  In other words, you popped your stitches, or misaligned your set bone . . . go back to the doctor.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 08, 2015, 01:14:56 AM
Assessments let you use the tag in later scenes:  investigation, burglary, scholarship, contacts. 

So it's well within the rules to have the tags last.  It also represents how a tended wound can be unravelled:  you hit a guy in the cast, he uses his free tag to pay off the compel and now the consequence is taggable like usual. 

Not married to it but I'm just sayin'....
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 08, 2015, 04:45:57 AM
Okay, so theoretically it makes sense, but maybe it doesn't make practical sense.  How about opening up one shift of stress in a filled consequence slot?  After medical treatment, each treated consequence slot can soak up a single point of stress, but not more.  If a person fills that one shift, it's as if the consequence were brand new.  This means a free tag for whomever caused you to fill it, a new recovery process initiation, and a reset of the time needed to recover.  In other words, you popped your stitches, or misaligned your set bone . . . go back to the doctor.

Flavourful, but probably finicky to play with.

I see two ways to expand your original idea. One is to make it apply to normal invocations too, which is easy and sensible but probably not very impactful. People can just invoke other Aspects. And the other is to let consequences be tagged repeatedly, like once per fight. That'd make them a lot worse to have, but maybe that's a good thing?

Assessments let you use the tag in later scenes:  investigation, burglary, scholarship, contacts. 

So it's well within the rules to have the tags last.

True, but I don't think there's much to be gained from extending that rule to consequences. Generally, people are gonna use the tag immediately anyway.

This is about what Theogony was proposing, in case it's not clear. Obviously under your proposal the tags on the medical Aspects would have to last.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: sdfds68 on April 08, 2015, 05:30:05 PM
And the other is to let consequences be tagged repeatedly, like once per fight. That'd make them a lot worse to have, but maybe that's a good thing?

It could be, since they don't seem to matter as much as they should, but it would also result in a push towards always having a medical expert in the party or everybody getting relevant powers to compensate. It'd be kind of DnD-ish. "No cleric? We're doomed!"

Also, would that change be to physical consequences, or to all consequences?
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Theogony_IX on April 08, 2015, 10:28:27 PM
Flavourful, but probably finicky to play with.

Can you explain what you mean a bit?
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 09, 2015, 12:05:03 AM
Can you explain what you mean a bit?

Each 1-shift semi-consequence is another thing that the players have to keep track of. It adds another detail to the character sheet and another thing to consider when doing damage math.

It could be, since they don't seem to matter as much as they should, but it would also result in a push towards always having a medical expert in the party or everybody getting relevant powers to compensate. It'd be kind of DnD-ish. "No cleric? We're doomed!"

Also, would that change be to physical consequences, or to all consequences?

I was thinking all.

And I don't think every party would need a doctor, as long as they had access to a hospital. Having your own doctor would be helpful for avoiding awkward questions, and maybe medical bills if you play in the US, but not necessary for healing.

The downside to this, I think, is that it takes away the freedom to decide how important you want a consequence to be. The nice thing about the current system is that while you can decide to Compel that broken leg if you think it would be interesting, you can also ignore it if it would just be a distraction.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: sdfds68 on April 09, 2015, 02:04:23 AM
The downside to this, I think, is that it takes away the freedom to decide how important you want a consequence to be. The nice thing about the current system is that while you can decide to Compel that broken leg if you think it would be interesting, you can also ignore it if it would just be a distraction.

Then maybe the solution isn't mechanical. Maybe it's behavioral. Maybe just creating examples of consequences in play for games with different themes would be a better solution than changing the rules.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 09, 2015, 02:27:27 AM
- I like the +1 for tagged aspects.  It's less boring than a maneuver and it still gives opponents an advantage.  Renaming the consequence keeps bookkeeping easy.

It shouldn't get too complicated.  Recovery isn't that complicated.

- I like the idea of having something done with mild consequences.  Something you can do mid-combat to alleviate a minor consequence because that's something that can be done fast.  Moderate and severe you need lots of time and quiet and a facility of some kind.

Minor consequences are the kind of thing a field medic can fix in a jiff.  An exchange or two - or maybe make it "1 minute" on the time chart.  Then extra shifts can be put towards making it quicker, so a good medic could do it in mid-combat.


****

More ideas:

- If you want to do some kind of stress box recovery, you could just tag an extra 1 stress box at the end your stress track for each consequence tended.  So, yes, you have 3 extra stress boxes(which sounds powerful) - but you also have your mild, moderate and severe consequence filled. 

Maybe say they only last 'x' number of scenes (maybe depending on how many shifts you get).  Or they last until they are filled or the consequence gets healed(whichever comes first).   If you did the latter, they wouldn't interfere with recovery too much.  If you have recovery, you get your consequences back quicker but lose the extra boxes sooner.

Edit:  I'd say you can only tend a wound once.  So once you use up your extra stress box, it goes away, and tending the same wound doesn't give you any other benefit.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 09, 2015, 01:58:36 PM
Double-post:

More ideas:

- If you want to do some kind of stress box recovery, you could just tag an extra 1 stress box at the end your stress track for each consequence tended.  So, yes, you have 3 extra stress boxes(which sounds powerful) - but you also have your mild, moderate and severe consequence filled. 

Maybe say they only last 'x' number of scenes (maybe depending on how many shifts you get).  Or they last until they are filled or the consequence gets healed(whichever comes first).   If you did the latter, they wouldn't interfere with recovery too much.  If you have recovery, you get your consequences back quicker but lose the extra boxes sooner.

Edit:  I'd say you can only tend a wound once.  So once you use up your extra stress box, it goes away, and tending the same wound doesn't give you any other benefit.

Thinking about it, adding boxes at the end of your stress track lets you take massive hits...which doesn't make sense to me.  Instead, maybe it just soaks a point of stress.  Example:

Bob was in a fight where he took a Moderate and severe consequence.  He went to the doctor and got those injuries tended.  This gives a reason for healing.

At the end of the next scene, his moderate is going to heal because enough time has passed but, during this scene, he gets into another fight.

This is his stress track:
**[M:0] = tended monderate consequence; [S:0] = tended severe consequence

Phys:  000 [m: 0] [S:0]*

He gets hit with a 6 shift hit.

If he takes the full brunt of the attack, he has to take a mild + extreme or be taken out.

He can, instead, soak up a single point of stress with the [m:0] or the [s:0]

If he does this, he resets the healing time on the wound.  So, if he fills in the  [M:X] box, his moderate won't heal at the end of the scene - he'll have to start the healing process over again.  He can't benefit from an extra box anymore either.  IF he had taken 7 stress, he could use up both temporary boxes to soak 2 stress.

His stress track now looks like this:

00X [M:X][S:0]  mild consequence 'winded'

The [M:0] is removed from your character sheet at the end of the scene, so your stress track will look this:

Phys:  000 [S:0]

Temporary boxes go away as soon as the consequence is healed.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Theogony_IX on April 09, 2015, 04:48:14 PM
You could use the end of the stress track if you want, or you could just draw a circle to be filled next to the original consequence box.
-Both boxes open, unused consequence.
-Both boxes filled, untreated consequence.
-Main box filled only, treated consequence.

I'd let the second box be filled as many times as they want.  With only soaking up a single point of stress, and allowing a free tag for the opponent, and resetting the recovery time, I don't think it would break the game.  I think there's enough drawback there to balance the benefit.  Besides, if your players are constantly cycling through medical treatment, that gives the bad guys a pattern to follow and strike at your player's through.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: sdfds68 on April 09, 2015, 05:04:46 PM
Doesn't having a series of consequences that never heal defeat the purpose of consequences in the first place? You're supposed to get them, and then get rid of them, not use them as armor.

I'm really not on board with making consequences able to soak up stress. I think that instead of altering consequences themselves, it would be more effective to start treating them differently in game.

If consequences need to matter, it might be a good idea to suggest a rate of compels per session on consequences, which changes based on how serious or how over the top the game is. The rate wouldn't be a hard rule, but rather a guideline to making the game play more in tune with the damage that racks up on characters.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 09, 2015, 05:21:51 PM
Doesn't having a series of consequences that never heal defeat the purpose of consequences in the first place? You're supposed to get them, and then get rid of them, not use them as armor.

I'm really not on board with making consequences able to soak up stress. I think that instead of altering consequences themselves, it would be more effective to start treating them differently in game.

If consequences need to matter, it might be a good idea to suggest a rate of compels per session on consequences, which changes based on how serious or how over the top the game is. The rate wouldn't be a hard rule, but rather a guideline to making the game play more in tune with the damage that racks up on characters.

It is raw that consequences soak up stress. 

Using the extra boxes from medical treatment would be optional.  If you don't want to reset the healing process, then don't use the box.  If you do that, game play is not effected at all - you just use the current rules as written. 

If you choose to use the extra stress box, you suffer the down-side.  But that down side might just save you from taking an extreme or getting taken out. 

The extra box might not help at all and it wouldn't be worth filling in.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Haru on April 09, 2015, 05:31:24 PM
Well, if you go for stress boxes, why not fractal the consequences while we're at it? It would lead to an easier way to deal with it overall.

All numbers are mostly placeholders, I'm not sure if this might be too easy or if it should be increased at some points. But here's the idea:

Each consequence has a stress track equal to its value.
mild: OO
moderate: OOOO
severe: OOOOOO

(excluding extreme, because that's special circumstances stuff)

These stress tracks don't add to your own, they are there to represent the healing state of the consequence. Every scene, you can cross off 1 box. You have to start with the lowest one on your sheet. That means if you have a mild consequence, you have to tick off a box there first, before you can cross off any on the big ones.

Healing can be done once per scene in addition to this. Roll an appropriate skill against the target number. The target is the added up values of the consequences you've got. So if you have a mild and a moderate consequence your healer would need to roll against a target number of 6. That means if someone is critically injured, you will have to take them somewhere that allows you to invoke a lot of aspects, if you want to be successful, which fits rather nicely.
Heal 1 additional box if you are successful +1 more for each 2 shifts over the target number.

Now we probably need a frequency limit on this or people will just do this end to end until the patient is clear of any consequences. I would say we can use the time increments table (YS315) for that. It would start on a different level depending on the most severe consequence:
mild: a few hour
moderate: an afternoon
severe: a day

Every subsequent attempt to heal takes one shift more on the time increment. The next attempt at healing a severe would take a few days then. Which will kind of lead us towards rehab times after a while.

The consequences would still be digital, you can either take it or not, you won't be able to take half a consequence because that's what's healed. Neither would you need less time to heal the consequence if it didn't soak its full value.

Recovery powers would simply reduce the number of stress boxes on each consequence accordingly.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 09, 2015, 07:20:38 PM
Well, if you go for stress boxes, why not fractal the consequences while we're at it? It would lead to an easier way to deal with it overall.

Maybe I'm not fully understanding your explanation, but this seems way more complicated.  That said....

Each consequence has a stress track equal to its value.
mild: OO
moderate: OOOO
severe: OOOOOO


These stress tracks don't add to your own, they are there to represent the healing state of the consequence. Every scene, you can cross off 1 box. You have to start with the lowest one on your sheet. That means if you have a mild consequence, you have to tick off a box there first, before you can cross off any on the big ones.

It's a bit weird, since wounds heal simultaneously and a successful roll against one consequence should only affect that one.  But I guess you're doing it as an 'overall health'.

Healing can be done once per scene in addition to this. Roll an appropriate skill against the target number. The target is the added up values of the consequences you've got. So if you have a mild and a moderate consequence your healer would need to roll against a target number of 6. That means if someone is critically injured, you will have to take them somewhere that allows you to invoke a lot of aspects, if you want to be successful, which fits rather nicely.
Heal 1 additional box if you are successful +1 more for each 2 shifts over the target number.

Now we probably need a frequency limit on this or people will just do this end to end until the patient is clear of any consequences. I would say we can use the time increments table (YS315) for that. It would start on a different level depending on the most severe consequence:
mild: a few hour
moderate: an afternoon
severe: a day

Every subsequent attempt to heal takes one shift more on the time increment. The next attempt at healing a severe would take a few days then. Which will kind of lead us towards rehab times after a while.
I don't think there's a need to limit it like that.  If you can only heal 1/scene, then limit it to 1 roll/scene.  Although, I think it makes sense to limit it to 1 roll/consequence.

Edit:  I see your point...there could be many, many scenes in one day.  I still think you should only be able to tend a wound once.

Recovery powers would simply reduce the number of stress boxes on each consequence accordingly.
I guess it would be one box off each consequence/level of recovery.


It feels too involved, in my mind, having to keep track of more stress boxes between scenes.  It's way more complicated than I had in mind, personally.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 10, 2015, 03:01:00 AM
Then maybe the solution isn't mechanical. Maybe it's behavioral. Maybe just creating examples of consequences in play for games with different themes would be a better solution than changing the rules.

I don't think that has anything to do with medical treatment. Are you trying to solve some other issue?

For what it's worth, I think the way consequences work in play is fine. But some deeper healing rules would be nice.

- I like the idea of having something done with mild consequences.  Something you can do mid-combat to alleviate a minor consequence because that's something that can be done fast.  Moderate and severe you need lots of time and quiet and a facility of some kind.

Minor consequences are the kind of thing a field medic can fix in a jiff.  An exchange or two - or maybe make it "1 minute" on the time chart.  Then extra shifts can be put towards making it quicker, so a good medic could do it in mid-combat.

Under the current rules, a medic can do a maneuver that basically cancels out the consequence tag. I think that's enough.

Worth bearing in mind that many mild consequences aren't treatable; there's really nothing medicine can do if you get your wind knocked out. You need a few minutes, not first aid.

- If you want to do some kind of stress box recovery, you could just tag an extra 1 stress box at the end your stress track for each consequence tended.  So, yes, you have 3 extra stress boxes(which sounds powerful) - but you also have your mild, moderate and severe consequence filled.

I don't think this is a good idea. It's fiddly and it might make it optimal to inflict mild consequences on yourself in order to have them healed for extra stress boxes.

Instead, maybe it just soaks a point of stress.  Example:

...

This sounds almost exactly like what Theogony was suggesting. And my issue with it is basically the same; it's fiddly.

Also, I'm not sure I like how it works alongside Recovery.

With only soaking up a single point of stress, and allowing a free tag for the opponent, and resetting the recovery time, I don't think it would break the game.

I don't think it would either, for what it's worth. I don't really like the idea, but that doesn't mean it's unbalanced.

Well, if you go for stress boxes, why not fractal the consequences while we're at it? It would lead to an easier way to deal with it overall.

All numbers are mostly placeholders, I'm not sure if this might be too easy or if it should be increased at some points. But here's the idea:

...

This is even fiddlier, so I'm not a fan. I'd rather have something simple.

Also, if you stick with these numbers, it's likely to make consequence recovery substantially faster. And even if you change the numbers, it'll change the way in which the recovery time is determined. Which could be a problem, since I'm pretty sure this system can be gamed.

I guess it would be one box off each consequence/level of recovery.

2 boxes, if you wanted to keep Recovery working the way it does now.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: sdfds68 on April 10, 2015, 05:08:50 AM
I don't think that has anything to do with medical treatment. Are you trying to solve some other issue?

For what it's worth, I think the way consequences work in play is fine. But some deeper healing rules would be nice.

Changing the Consequences can result in different healing mechanics entirely. So instead of treating consequences as almost purely stress affecting things, maybe players and GMs should be treating each consequence as a sort of mini-story, starting with how they acquired and ending with how they get dropped. The best part of this is that could fit in fine with the original rules for Consequences getting healed, as the table could decide whether to actively pursue healing for a character, or to just wait it out.

So instead of PC Bob taking a mild and moderate during a chase scene and just waiting for them to go away, or even just heading to some specific location to get treatment (followed by more waiting or more stress), it could work a little more like this.

If a consequence on one particular character is a problem for the party (main combatant can't fight, main talker can't be seen in public, main caster is talking gibberish all the time instead of casting), the party can choose to single out that consequence and work it off more quickly.

So instead of waiting like normal, Bob buys some in game time to heal up with skills/tags/Party help/A fate point, and uses [whatever time period the GM declares realistic] in game to work with somebody with the Doctor stunt to try and un-mess up his arm.

While any number of mechanics could be used during that time to represent healing, what could work best here is to establish some timeframe for the number of rolls allowed and a number of shifts necessary to overcome the consequence. But some of the other suggestions made so far could also work, such as the each consequence providing a point of armor until it's really gone or providing extra boxes to take stress, as could a GM just deciding that nothing needs to be done here; it's up to the other characters to buy in game time to make up for the real life wait for a Consequence to go away.

The point isn't the specifics of how a Consequence is dealt with, it's how the idea of healing is treated as gameplay element. I think in FATE systems, dropping a Consequence requires not some special point by point 'how we get rid of this thing' treatment, but rather an acknowledgement and concerted effort by the players through established rules or possibly simple rules variations to overcome that particular part of the plot. Or, in books, movies and TV shows injuries work as the plot and themes demand, and FATE should emulate that rather than simulation of real injury.

During that time the Bad Guys are still doing things, so there's an ongoing contest (like, say the Cat and Mouse contest from YS pg 195)for the other PCs to deal with in keeping the Bad Guys resources tied up while Bob is trying to get back to functionality. That way, although Bob is gonna get back to main plot with a clear track more quickly than normal, there's a trade off for getting Bob healed as alternative to playing on with an injured Bob. Namely, the party becomes a sort of shield against further harm for Bob and the things that would compel Bob to get back out there so that Bob and his doctor can get rid of that really annoying aspect. Individual PCs could also skip out on helping out with the contest and go help Bob instead, if that's necessary.

Also, Tarans' idea for tags that could be used to pay off Consequence compels could fit in perfectly as an lower effort narrative mechanism for medical treatment. This way, should a Consequence become a problem for the players, they can slap a band aid on it, or focus on treating it like any other in game problem and just work together on fixing it.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 10, 2015, 01:33:12 PM
I don't think this is a good idea. It's fiddly and it might make it optimal to inflict mild consequences on yourself in order to have them healed for extra stress boxes.

You say this because I think you are misunderstanding.  It is ALWAYS better to have a mild available, since that soaks 2 stress.  A treated mild consequence can only soak 1 stress.  It doesn't add a box at the end of your track.  As sdfds68 says, it's more like armour.  Armour that only works for a single hit.  With the added down-side that you have to re-start the healing process. (but you could take or leave the last part).


This sounds almost exactly like what Theogony was suggesting. And my issue with it is basically the same; it's fiddly.

Also, I'm not sure I like how it works alongside Recovery.


I'm not sure it's fiddly.  Especially since you don't seem to like the more straight-forward - less fiddly solutions, such as re-naming an aspect and only allowing a +1 on the tag.   And it doesn't affect recovery powers at all.  Recovery powers work exactly the same.  The box lasts until you heal the consequence and you heal consequences faster with recovery.  If you mean that it'll make recovery powers less useful (because you have to reset the healing process), then I guess that is an issue - but you can take that part out.  I'd added it for flavour because we were talking about how tended injuries could get re-injured - or you can leave it in since using the extra boxes is completely optional.

Depending on what level of recovery you have, you may never need to be tended.  A severe recovers at the end of a scene If you have mythic.  At most, you might get your severe tended if you have inhuman recovery.

In any case, I'd do it like this:

mild:
- doesn't require a check to start healing process
- difficulty 2 to get 1 temporary 'armour'

Moderate:
- requires a check of 2 to start healing process (journeyman level: someone able to re-set a bone, put on a sling, do stiches)
- requires a 4 to get the armour

Severe:
 - requires a check of 3 or 4 -probably depends on the consequence...(professional/veteran status: a doctor or someone who can do surgery or deal with mass trauma)
 - requires a 6 to get the extra armour


So, if you go to a hospital, you get the basic recovery.  But if someone does really well, they've mended you up so well that the injury is less of an issue for you.

Without an injury, you can soak up 6 stress (with a severe)
With a severe and hospital care you can't soak up anything - but you are healing
With a severe and extremely good care you can soak up 1 stress and you are healing

It doesn't prevent tags or invokes or anything.

Honestly, I can't think of anything else.  I'm out of ideas for now.

@sdfds68:
I think your solution already happens, unless I'm misunderstanding you.  As is, you can't do anything about consequences except wait for them to heal, therefore the group is forced to refocus their efforts on alternative solutions for things until their group is healed up.

Other options are to do things like say:  I need more gear.  I want to acquire x,y,z.  These things are hard to get and will take a 2 weeks to come in.
GM-hand-wavy-ness:  A 2 weeks pass, everyone is healed and you have your gear.

But that's a bit boring (boring until the party finds out about all the stuff the Bad Guys did in that time).  As you pointed out, there's more fun ways to 'make time pass'.

But it still doesn't make the doctor in the party any more useful for having that stunt.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: sdfds68 on April 11, 2015, 05:46:01 AM
But it still doesn't make the doctor in the party any more useful for having that stunt.
It is that what this is about? I thought this thread was the problems Consequences inherently cause in slowing down the action.

Buffing the Doctor stunt is easy. Just let them dose everybody to gills with meth and morphine for free bonuses, and call it a trapping.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 11, 2015, 02:30:26 PM
It is that what this is about? I thought this thread was the problems Consequences inherently cause in slowing down the action.

Buffing the Doctor stunt is easy. Just let them dose everybody to gills with meth and morphine for free bonuses, and call it a trapping.

No it's not specifically about the doctor stunt.

For your convenience, here is my opening post

(click to show/hide)

  It's the fact that there is no mechanical benefit to getting medical treatment.  Because of this, the doctor stunt is useless.  You're better off having doctor as an aspect and saving the refresh for something else.

Only supernatural powers affect healing and I find that annoying.  Medical treatment is purely narrative.  (As you've pointed out already) I think there should be some kind of mechanical advantage to actually going to a hospital.  It's too hand wavey in my mind.

As I said in my first post, many people get around the 'I need an excuse for healing' by taking wizards constitution and, in fact, it's a better use of your refresh than taking the doctor stunt unless you are pure mortal.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Remi on April 11, 2015, 11:23:50 PM
As I said in my first post, many people get around the 'I need an excuse for healing' by taking wizards constitution and, in fact, it's a better use of your refresh than taking the doctor stunt unless you are pure mortal.

Taking the Doctor stunt allows you to start the healing process for moderate and severe (in a hospital) consequences afflicted on any number of mortals. I assume that most GMs won't allow someone with Doctor to treat themselves for anything but mild consequences, so you'd never take it to treat yourself.

Inhuman Recovery and Wizard's Constitution only work on the character who takes the power, not on anyone else. That's the real difference here. If your campaign has no pure PC mortals who need medical treatment, then yes, the Doctor stunt is useless. But if the PCs in your campaign are mostly Pure Mortals, then it means that one character can "heal" all the others. If that character took Inhuman Recovery or Wizard's Con, he couldn't help the others heal in any useful way.

Remember, Pure Mortals get two free refresh for the inconvenience of not having access to special powers. Is it "worth" it to play a character like Murphy, who's an expert at a lot of mundane things, instead of a powerful wizard like Harry or a White Court Vampire like Thomas?

What we're talking about here is character concept. If your concept is a Pure Mortal, you don't have the option of taking those powers. All it really means is that players of Pure Mortal characters will have to depend on NPC doctors if no else wants to spend refresh on Doctor.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 13, 2015, 01:56:09 PM
But it's not about the doctor stunt but I'd allow someone to treat themselves - you see it all the time in the movies.  I've also heard stories of military field medics splinting their own broken bones, then continue marching.   It probably doesn't happen often, but it's 'heroic' enough, that I'd allow it.  It would just be a situation where you'd actually have to roll. - and the difficulty might be high.

In the game I'm running, where there's lots of wilderness and no easy access to hospitals, I can see the doctor stunt being very useful.  It's not really like that in a modern city game.  "I go to the hospital" has its own draw-backs sometimes (uncomfortable questions, time taken away from chasing the bad guy etc...) but overall, it's pretty easy and doesn't add much.  I feel going to the hospital should have more of an effect on the injury. 

'In game reason to heal' doesn't really fit what medical treatment does.  Having someone tend injuries does quicken the healing time, prevent infection etc...

That said, it's not a one-time thing.  With serious enough injuries, you usually have to go in multiple times, have dressings replaced etc..

I wonder if that's a better way to go about it.  Maybe you need to have injuries tended multiple times(depending on the severity of the consequence) to allow them to heal quickly....it could be a lesser form of inhuman recovery.

I've also come around to thinking that you can't really tend minor consequences.  They're the kind of thing that a doctor might dress and say, 'suck it up, it'll get better soon'.

Anyways, please don't try to convince me that I don't need a rule for medical treatment...since the whole purpose of the thread is to brain-storm rules for medical treatment.  I'm just trying to find different options for people's games.  Some may not be ideal and some may work, depending on the group.  I'd love to find something I could use in my own games.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Remi on April 13, 2015, 08:12:00 PM
I've also come around to thinking that you can't really tend minor consequences.  They're the kind of thing that a doctor might dress and say, 'suck it up, it'll get better soon'.

The book appears to be inconsistent on this. The rules for Scholarship on p. 141 say that you need First Aid from Scholarship to start recovery, but on page 204 it describes mild consequences this way:

Quote
Think of things that are bad enough to make you say “Walk it off/rub some dirt in it!” (Examples: Bruised Hand, Nasty Shiner, Winded, Flustered, Distracted.)

None of those examples requires any attention from a doctor, other than for them to poke you, take an X-ray and say, "Why are you burdening the health care system? It ain't broke. Take some ibuprofen."

Anyways, please don't try to convince me that I don't need a rule for medical treatment...since the whole purpose of the thread is to brain-storm rules for medical treatment.  I'm just trying to find different options for people's games.  Some may not be ideal and some may work, depending on the group.  I'd love to find something I could use in my own games.

The rules about medical treatment are written to model modern medicine as practiced in cities like Chicago. That typically requires doctors and hospitals. If your setting is in a place like Afghanistan where characters have field medic training and equipment and drugs to go with it, then you have your rationale. It won't "heal" them in any real sense, but it will patch them up and inure them to pain to allow them to get through the next couple of days (which is what's always happening to Harry when he goes to Butters for all his aches and pains).

But if they try to do that for the next three scenarios without getting any real rest, they may well die of a stroke, a pulmonary embolism, sepsis, exhaustion or develop a nasty morphine addiction. Harry always seems to take a year between novels to recuperate from the damage inflicted on him over the span of a few days. If your characters aren't given that kind of time to heal in-game perhaps your scenarios should be spread out over more game time.

I know you want rules, but the first rule in any RPG should be, "Toss out any rules that get in the way of telling your story." If the characters need to heal faster than the rules say, change the rules. Your scenarios should be about the player characters in the campaign, and the rules should be subservient to the development of those characters.

Thus, you might get more concrete suggestions if you shared the specific details about the characters in the campaign.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 13, 2015, 10:32:06 PM
Quote
None of those examples requires any attention from a doctor, other than for them to poke you, take an X-ray and say, "Why are you burdening the health care system? It ain't broke. Take some ibuprofen."

Yeah, that's what I meant.

It could be any setting.  I run one in a modern day setting, I play in one that happens in different locations all over the world but my character is part fomor so can't go to a hospital but that's irrelevant because she has recovery, I play one that's set in WWII and we're working for the underground, I run another in 1700's wild west.

So, getting the healing process started is more or less easy depending on the setting.  But, let's take the part-fomor.

She doesn't need medical treatment.  That said, I think it would make sense that, if she got medical treatment for her wounds, they would heal quicker/more efficiently/better.

I don't see why the two methods have to be mutually exclusive.  Why can't something with recovery benefit from a hospital stay?
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: sdfds68 on April 13, 2015, 10:39:53 PM
The idea with the medical aspects and the tags paying off compels good. Like, it could fit right into almost anyones' game without being noticed as a house rule.

Everything else seems to be about getting characters from one fight to next more quickly. But it just feels like to me that there's no real point to that. Instead focusing on player action to increase the number of fight scenes, it would be easier to cut on the amount of time needed to heal anything, and maybe skip the 'reason to heal' bit.

So instead of me suggesting whatever comes off the top of my head, I'm going to try and remake the entire system of consequences and healing. And I think I'm going to do it multiple times, for different types of games at different narrative paces. Be back in a bit.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 14, 2015, 05:29:05 PM
I'd like to point out that some of the methods presented don't affect recovery time at all.  The armour method simply offsets the consequence by 1 shift.

This isn't really about getting a character into a fight quicker.

So instead of me suggesting whatever comes off the top of my head, I'm going to try and remake the entire system of consequences and healing. And I think I'm going to do it multiple times, for different types of games at different narrative paces. Be back in a bit.

I look forward to it!
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Lawgiver on April 14, 2015, 05:50:59 PM
Before we go much further here, I think we might need to make sure we’re all on the same page about what constitutes the various levels of consequences. From YS, P 204 we have:

Mild: Last for one scene after recovery starts. Think of things that are bad enough to make you say, “Walk it off/rub some dirt in it!”
Examples given as Aspects: BRUISED HAND, NASTY SHINER, WINDED, FLUSTERED, DISTRACTED

These are very small ‘problems’; almost ephemeral. BRUISED HAND may mean something as simple as accidentally smacking it on a door frame up to whacking your thumb with a hammer. It hurts for a few moments and might be DISTRACTING but within a minute or so, you’re good to go. WINDED? Take a minute to catch your breath. FLUSTERED? Take a minute to calm down and focus. I wouldn’t think most of these things would be relevant much longer than two or three exchanges (depending on how long your group tends to take for an exchange to occur), let alone an entire scene. They really don’t even need any medical care whatsoever, just a minute or so to ‘deal with’ – then they’re non-issues. I think the “after recovery starts” wording is a bit… misleading? How can recovery be delayed, really? (some insight for us lost cubs might help)

Moderate: Lasts until the end of the next session after recovery starts. Think of things that are bad enough to make you say, “Man, you really should go take care of that/get some rest.” Examples given as Aspects: BELLY SLASH, BAD FIRST DEGREE BURN, TWISTED ANKLE, EXHAUSTED, DRUNK. These are, indeed, more severe than “Mild”. They last a little longer and one of them, BELLY SLASH might, in fact, require some attention. BURN might or might not. It’s first degree -- pretty mild as burns go. Sunburns are an example. They’re superficial. Almost never have blisters. Almost never any risk of infection. They can be ‘painful’ (more likely just uncomfortable) for a few days, but they’re hardly ‘game breaking’ regarding physical activity or mental concentration. Just put some aloe and a band-aid on it and you’re pretty much good. Twisted ankle -- how bad? If it’s bad enough to qualify for Moderate, then I’d say (at least with my group) it would be 50/50 whether or not they’re going to bother with “medical attention”; wrap it up tight and keep truckin’. EXHAUSTED and DRUNK just need time. Medical attention won’t do squat (unless you count handing out stimulants). For those two, again, I think the “until the next session after recovery starts” can be misleading. If I end a session with scenario complete and I have a player whose character has, say, EXHAUSTED, as an aspect  – and the next scenario is designed to be a week later – why on earth is that person still EXHAUSTED all through that entire session? I’d do the hand-wavy thing and give them the recovery – they’ve had a week of sleep to get over it. Same with DRUNK. I don’t know of anyone who can do a one-night drinking spree and stay trashed for a week…

Severe: Last for the next scenario (or two to three sessions, whichever is longer) after recovery starts. Think of things that are bad enough to make you say, “Man, you really need to go to the ER/Get serious help.” Examples given as Aspects: BROKEN LEG, Bad SECOND-DEGREE BURNS (see this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn#By_depth   for descriptions of what such burns can be like), CRIPPLING SHAME, TRAUMA-INDUCED PHOBIA. Ok, now we’re talking ‘consequences’. Now we’re talking the realm of need for professional attention.

With the possible exception of BELLY SLASH in Moderate, I personally see little to no need/justification for involvement of real medical attention until we get to this level. And once we’re at this level the character is going to be severely hampered or even sidelined for an extended period of time (weeks if not months).

Until we get to the Severe level, we’re talking adjudicating context which means the door is open to all kinds of ‘fixes’ that I don’t think can be quantified in a simple house-rule; each case is likely to be different and not fit ‘the mold’ of that particular rule. I think chasing this Chimera is mostly a waste of time.

Sorry.

Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 14, 2015, 07:36:04 PM
Regarding time and recovery:

Quote from: ys: 220
In certain cases,
it’d be more appropriate to measure recovery
with in-game time, like days or weeks—see
page 314 in Running the Game for more details
on that.

Quote from: ys: 315
In terms of story time, recovering from a mild
consequence takes about an hour. Recovering
from a moderate consequence takes anywhere
from a day to a week. Recovering from a severe
consequence takes several weeks to a couple of
months

So yes, you are correct that some consequences won't last beyond the frame-work of the story if the Gm says "two weeks have passed".  Also, since consequences can be broadly interpreted, they may not always require a hospital visit but I disagree that you don't have to worry about it until you reach the severe level.  It would depend on the moderate consequence but a 'festering gash' might be a moderate that requires a doctor to prescribe antibiotics.  It's not much of a wound but it won't go away without attention.  Consequences aren't limited to the examples in the book and they can have as little or as much weight as the group/gm/player puts on them.

But when they do decide that medical attention is warranted, it might be nice to have something to play with other than, 'you start healing'.

Quote
Until we get to the Severe level, we’re talking adjudicating context which means the door is open to all kinds of ‘fixes’ that I don’t think can be quantified in a simple house-rule; each case is likely to be different and not fit ‘the mold’ of that particular rule. I think chasing this Chimera is mostly a waste of time.

Sorry.

But if you think it's a waste of time, feel free to stop derailing the thread.  I feel like I'm getting more, 'this is a stupid idea' than actual practical ideas.

I've played the game since it first came out and, I think the only time I've ever seen "going to the hospital" become an issue is when the GM wants to remove NPC's from the game.  "Joe is hurt.  he can't help you - he's at the hospital for a couple of days."

Honestly, I think if you're going to pace the game based on consequences:  "you can't go after Bad Guy because your intestines are falling out.  You need to spend 2 weeks recovering.  In the mean-time Bad guy's plans are going to go forward".

That feels like it's a compel.

Harry has(had) Wizard's Constitution.  He doesn't need 'an excuse to start the healing process' - he never actually needs to visit a hospital - and, yet, Butters patches him up.  Obviously because it has some kind of effect.  Is it purely narrative?  Is it just to break up the pace of the novel?  Give him a chance to recover his stress track?  Catch his breath?  It could be but I don't like that.  If I was playing Butters as a character,  I would want all those procedures to actually help Harry's character otherwise I've wasted a stunt.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Theogony_IX on April 14, 2015, 08:02:11 PM
I honestly think the idea you currently have is pretty solid.  (though I may be biased)  Right now it just needs to be tested.  If I were running a game right now, I would be testing it.  Maybe some others would be willing to try it out in there games for a bit and report back.  More data is better when evaluating.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 14, 2015, 09:43:07 PM
I honestly think the idea you currently have is pretty solid.  (though I may be biased)  Right now it just needs to be tested.  If I were running a game right now, I would be testing it.  Maybe some others would be willing to try it out in there games for a bit and report back.  More data is better when evaluating.

I'm running a game I could use it in.  Are you talking about the armour method?
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Theogony_IX on April 14, 2015, 10:40:07 PM
I'm running a game I could use it in.  Are you talking about the armour method?

If by armour, you mean the option for a filled consequence to soak up 1 stress after being tended, then yes.  Even if the method isn't perfect, it won't ruin your game, and you can adjust things if they aren't working right, or even go back to the RAW if you need to.  IMO, trying out new rules to make the game more fun is a big part of how the GM has fun too.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 14, 2015, 11:30:53 PM
Lawgiver, sdfds68, you should probably read this exchange (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,44745.msg2142581.html#msg2142581). Because if your posts are any indication, you've completely misunderstood what this thread is about.

You say this because I think you are misunderstanding.  It is ALWAYS better to have a mild available, since that soaks 2 stress.  A treated mild consequence can only soak 1 stress.  It doesn't add a box at the end of your track.  As sdfds68 says, it's more like armour.  Armour that only works for a single hit.  With the added down-side that you have to re-start the healing process. (but you could take or leave the last part).

That was in response to "- If you want to do some kind of stress box recovery, you could just tag an extra 1 stress box at the end your stress track for each consequence tended.  So, yes, you have 3 extra stress boxes(which sounds powerful) - but you also have your mild, moderate and severe consequence filled."

Especially since you don't seem to like the more straight-forward - less fiddly solutions, such as re-naming an aspect and only allowing a +1 on the tag.

I like renaming aspects, actually. And I don't dislike only allowing a +1 on the tag, I'm just pointing out that it can't possibly matter unless you change how consequence tags work.

And it doesn't affect recovery powers at all.  Recovery powers work exactly the same.

That's basically the problem.

mild:
- doesn't require a check to start healing process
- difficulty 2 to get 1 temporary 'armour'

Moderate:
- requires a check of 2 to start healing process (journeyman level: someone able to re-set a bone, put on a sling, do stiches)
- requires a 4 to get the armour

Severe:
 - requires a check of 3 or 4 -probably depends on the consequence...(professional/veteran status: a doctor or someone who can do surgery or deal with mass trauma)
 - requires a 6 to get the extra armour

Having thought about it a bit more, I think it might be better not to use set difficulties. Varying difficulties based on GM discretion would make rolls more important/interesting, and binary distinctions like "has Doctor or healing Power? Y/N" would be simpler.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: sdfds68 on April 15, 2015, 02:44:59 AM
After creating three variations on the original consequence system, rereading this thread, reading a lot of other threads and reading YS, I think I managed to wind up back where I started in this thread.

Allow characters with the Doctor stunt to take time off of consequences. It's simple, doesn't affect anything but consequence recovery, gives Doctor a reason to exist and can be regulated in game through roll difficulty. Come up with some time reductions, playtest 'em and adjust as necessary.

If asked I'll put up the variations I wrote, but honestly they're crap. Most of what I said in the first one boils down to 'get rid of Wizard's Constitution' and the others are for fate games with an entirely different tone and assumptions about what player characters are capable of.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 15, 2015, 04:33:16 AM
thinking out loud:

What if we keep the time limits the same but What if consequences heal on their own - naturally.

At the end of the scene in which you got hurt, you make an endurance roll = to the consequence.**
You could do this multiple ways - I'm not sure what would be best:
      1 roll/ consequence you want to tend (but then you have to track each consequence separately - but you kind of do that already anyways...)
      1 roll with a set difficulty base on total consequences?


If you fail, you can't start the healing process and you can't roll again until the next prescribed amount of time passes:
Mild: after next scene
Moderate: after next session
etc...

If you fail again, you have to continue to wait.

I'll stop here before I continue:  This doesn't change the existing rules except to allow pure mortals to heal on their own.  If they keep failing, they'd never start healing - but how it stands in the rules, you don't heal without medical treatment anyways.  Mostly it's giving pure mortals a leg up.

You could even choose to include some kind of bad side-effect if you fail badly, like a worsening of a consequence.


If you choose to visit a doctor, you may immediately make an endurance roll and tag the aspect created by the doctor who tended you.
- Maybe give you additional bonuses based on the quality of the doctors skill roll?  +1 every 3 shifts?
- I'm not sure what the difficulty of the scholarship roll should be.  Maybe consequence minus 2?  Maybe it depends on the consequence?

You can get a bonus to the endurance roll based on how long you spend at the hospital (start at one scene and get a +1 for the length of time you spend on the time chart.)  So, with enough time at a hospital or being tended, you will start the healing process automatically.

Recovery Powers:
Recovery gives you a bonus to your endurance roll based on the level you take.  So, you're more likely to start healing automatically.
Maybe 2, 4, 6?
Once you start recovering, you also recover faster - as written in the power.
Also, since recovering reduces the time consequences heal, you also get to roll endurance more often.

Visiting a hospital will speed up or guarantee the healing process because you can stack your recovery bonus with the bonus granted from mundane medical treatment.  It also gives you a second chance to roll if you fail.

Wizards constitution should probably give some kind of bonus to start healing+2?  No risk of having wounds get worse, if that's something you choose to include?


**A GM may adjudicate that certain consequences don't require a roll and start healing on their own.

Example: Bob the Pure mortal and Tom the Supernatural Healer.  Both with an endurance of +2

At the end of a scene, they both have a severe consequence.

They both roll against a difficulty of 6.
Bob has a total of +2, so must roll a +4 on the dice
Tom has a total of +6.

- Assuming they both succeed, Tom heals his severe at the beginning of the next session, while bob heals his at the end of the scenario.
- Assuming they both fail, Tom gets to roll another time after the next session.  If he succeeds, he heals the severe at the end of the session, as normal.  Bob doesn't get to try another roll until the end of the scenario.  If Tom had mythic recovery, he could re-roll every scene and heal that severe by the end of the current scene in which he succeeded.
- Of course, it's likely, Tom will succeed immediately and Bob will fail

After Bob fails, he decides he doesn't want to wait until the end of the scenario or a month in game time.  He chooses to Tom spend a scene at the hospital, or has a fellow PC tend him. he can roll 2(endurance)+2(for the tag).  If he doesn't llike his odds, he can spend the afternoon getting treated, increasing his odds by +4.

If Tom fails and decides he doesn't want to have a minimum of 2 full sessions with a severe(instead of 1 session), he joins Bob and gets to re-roll, adding the +2 tag to his +6.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Remi on April 15, 2015, 05:21:08 AM
Harry has(had) Wizard's Constitution.  He doesn't need 'an excuse to start the healing process' - he never actually needs to visit a hospital - and, yet, Butters patches him up.  Obviously because it has some kind of effect.  Is it purely narrative?  Is it just to break up the pace of the novel?  Give him a chance to recover his stress track?  Catch his breath?  It could be but I don't like that.  If I was playing Butters as a character,  I would want all those procedures to actually help Harry's character otherwise I've wasted a stunt.

You're trying to reduce the novels to numerical computations, whereas I think the game designers' intent is to make our games play like the novels.

There is no game mechanical reason for Butters to do what he does, because the novel is not a game. Butters patches up Harry because Harry needs to relate to regular people. We need to see that Harry is human. This becomes more obvious later in the series when Harry begins to seriously fear that he's losing his humanity to the powers that threaten to take over his soul.

The medical treatment is also about character development, and Butters can give Harry some insight into wizardly biology that Harry can't get by himself. The treatment defines the relationship between Harry and Butters, draws Butters into the web of complexity that's Harry's life.

The novels are about these people, not the mechanics of the battles. In later novels Butters' investment in Harry becomes a pivotal element in his life and the others around him. If Harry never visited Butters for treatment a major plot point would never happen, because Butters would be completely useless to Harry. Butters, being mundane, is also responsible for keeping Harry grounded in the mortal world and not getting completely lost in the faerie world.

When we play these games it is tempting to reduce human beings to mere stats and power lists. But novels that read like the transcription of a computer game are not interesting. I find the most successful play sessions are those that unfold without us ever having to roll dice or consult the rule book -- when the action unfolds organically out of the tensions between characters and the story that the GM has created for them to interact with.

The Fate system is set up to give the players a lot of control over the direction of the scenario. Players can spend fate points and make declarations to make things go the way they want to. The mechanics can be manipulated so that players themselves can usually decide when they're going to succeed or fail at something.

If making your players sit around waiting to heal is a waste of time in your game -- that is, your characters have no need to interact with a doctor character like Butters -- then just toss the rule.

You use the phrase "narrative reasons" like that's a bad thing. In my mind, the narrative -- the story -- is the only thing. The stats and the dice rolling are there to spice things up, add some randomness and take some of the arbitrariness that can develop if GMs can just dictate every outcome.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 15, 2015, 06:08:49 AM
Remi, save it. You're not contributing anything to the thread.

If you want to talk about your gaming philosophy and how other people should adopt it, you can start a new thread for that. But you aren't actually addressing what Taran is saying, and you're wasting your time here.

This isn't a moderator order. I'm not going to ban you if you ignore me. But you really should listen.

thinking out loud:

What if we keep the time limits the same but What if consequences heal on their own - naturally.

...

Eh. I don't really see the point of all that rolling. It doesn't seem to make medical treatment more interesting or meaningful, and I don't think it opens up much design space for magical healing.

If asked I'll put up the variations I wrote, but honestly they're crap. Most of what I said in the first one boils down to 'get rid of Wizard's Constitution' and the others are for fate games with an entirely different tone and assumptions about what player characters are capable of.

Don't put up the variants if they're terrible, but I'm curious; what other games are the other variants for?
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 15, 2015, 12:58:53 PM
Eh. I don't really see the point of all that rolling. It doesn't seem to make medical treatment more interesting or meaningful, and I don't think it opens up much design space for magical healing.

Yeah, I agree, and there's other things I don't like about it but I think there's a seed there.  What I see in that method is that healing just happens.  Recovery and medical treatment speed it up.  Medical treatment even helps Recovery along.

For magical healing, scholarship skill replacement would work.  Boosting complexity to compensate for 'time spent at the hospital' to boost the healing roll could allow it to happen quicker.

It doesn't work well with Wizard's constitution, though.  Some wounds should be so difficult to heal naturally that it's near impossible except with Recovery/wizards con.  But the way I had the numbers, someone with high endurance might always start healing but someone with Wizards con and low endurance might not.

Quote
You're trying to reduce the novels to numerical computations, whereas I think the game designers' intent is to make our games play like the novels.


No, that's not what I'm doing at all.  But since it's a game based on the book, some things get turned into mechanics: there are stat blocks for all the characters because some things in the novels need to be transferred over. 

The doctoring of Harry's physical wounds is just a symbolic gesture to a different kind of healing that's taking place.  That's what happens in the novel.  I get all that.

GMing that scene may be useful for all kinds of things - giving people a chance to rest, allowing characters to Role Play, maybe it's a good point for a milestone, maybe it gives a justification for a skill swap or an increase in a skill - maybe Butters(the character) increases his empathy.

But, in the game, If I'm playing Butters (the character), using the Doctor stunt on Harry is pointless. I've taken the stunt purely to fill the theme of the character.  I'd be better off having 'doctor' as an aspect.

Really,  Butters is just giving Dresden a narrative justification to heal a mental consequence.  maybe one he took casting.  Butters doesn't have 'psychologist' on his character sheet, and he shouldn't need it - or maybe he should.  I suppose it depends on whether or not the GM feels the consequence needs proper justification. 

I don't think narrative is a bad thing.  I'm getting insulted that people think I think that - have you seen me play?  It just doesn't happen to be purpose of this thread. 

Consider this a cerebral exercise.  You don't have to use anything that gets developed and you don't have to participate.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Theogony_IX on April 15, 2015, 04:55:17 PM
It doesn't work well with Wizard's constitution, though.  Some wounds should be so difficult to heal naturally that it's near impossible except with Recovery/wizards con.  But the way I had the numbers, someone with high endurance might always start healing but someone with Wizards con and low endurance might not.

There are also wounds that even if healed on there own, heal better with a doctor.  Broken bones are a prime example.  You can break a bone and let it heal on its own, but it might heal crooked.  Moderate flesh wounds that could use stitches can heal on their own, but there is also a chance they get infected and worsen instead.

I think your best bet is to find a benefit from medical treatment rather than change the way a wound heals.  I think it would only create complicated things to keep track of that could easily be lost track of.

Using your last idea though, and something that Sancta mentioned earlier:  You could change the way consequence aspects function.  The first tag is a free +2, reroll, or effect just like normal.  However, until a wound is tended, anyone who knows about the consequence and aspect can tag it against you for a +1, reroll with one locked down, or a Discipline opposed effect.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 15, 2015, 06:20:20 PM
Well, using an assessment action, you could assess the fact that someone has a consequence.  That would give you a free tag.  It's the same as introducing any aspect that is on the scene.

In that sense, Consequences can be invoked in new scenes without needing FP's.  It requires an action and an appropriate roll: alertness, scholarship, empathy all seem like appropriate skills.  It's not really different from introducing any other aspect through a maneuver or assessment, so I don't know if it would play any part in making up rules.  If the person is actively trying to conceal the wound, it might be opposed.  I'd say the harsher the wound, the more difficult it would be to hide and, therefore, easier to assess.

That said, it's much more beneficial to do a maneuver and tag it for a +2 than it is to assess a tended consequence and only get a +1.  So, I'm not sure how often anyone would do that, unless you make that assessment incredibly easy.  I've rarely seen anyone assess a consequence on an NPC.  Maybe never. 

On the other hand, it may be way easier to assess a wound than, say, trip or flank etc...

Quote
I think your best bet is to find a benefit from medical treatment rather than change the way a wound heals.

Well, that's what I was trying to do with the last method I presented.  The benefit was allowing the healing process to start earlier and to give people a second chance to start it.  Which is pretty much how it already works except I also made it work in conjunction with a recovery power and tied it to a roll.  I'm not defending it...just explaining what I was trying to do.

Quote
You can break a bone and let it heal on its own, but it might heal crooked.  Moderate flesh wounds that could use stitches can heal on their own, but there is also a chance they get infected and worsen instead.

You might be able to do that with a compel...but I do like the idea of consequences worsening.  Recovery might make it even harder...bones mending super fast before they have a chance to be set.  You could always narrate it that the bones re-set themselves magically if you have a recovery power.

I'm not sure there's a smooth way to do it.  A compel could have you re-name the injury into something worse, or have the healing process start over if you don't give it a chance to rest - or if you're slogging through a sewer with an open cut cause some kind of complication.  I mean, that's kind of what consequences are supposed to do.

Renaming a consequence when you get it mended would alleviate some of the narrative power on a consequence, so I like that.  It's hard to say your wound gets infected if it's been wrapped and sterilized, blah, blah, blah...  but even then, a compel is a compel:  "your bandage comes undone in the sewer and now its infected, introduction of complication x,y,z."   Renaming the consequence can take some of the narrative justification away from your enemy.  I do like reducing the tag to a +1, though since that reinforces it mechanically.  But, as Sanctaphrax says, tags don't happen much after the scene in which the consequence is created, so it'll rarely come up.  Which brings me back to my first point in the post.


What we agree on so far:

Medical treatment renames a consequence.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Theogony_IX on April 15, 2015, 07:00:44 PM
Well, using an assessment action, you could assess the fact that someone has a consequence.  That would give you a free tag.  It's the same as introducing any aspect that is on the scene.

In that sense, Consequences can be invoked in new scenes without needing FP's.  It requires an action and an appropriate roll: alertness, scholarship, empathy all seem like appropriate skills.  It's not really different from introducing any other aspect through a maneuver or assessment, so I don't know if it would play any part in making up rules.  If the person is actively trying to conceal the wound, it might be opposed.  I'd say the harsher the wound, the more difficult it would be to hide and, therefore, easier to assess.

That said, it's much more beneficial to do a maneuver and tag it for a +2 than it is to assess a tended consequence and only get a +1.  So, I'm not sure how often anyone would do that, unless you make that assessment incredibly easy.  I've rarely seen anyone assess a consequence on an NPC.  Maybe never. 

On the other hand, it may be way easier to assess a wound than, say, trip or flank etc...

Ah, I forgot a part of my thought.  It would be a free tag for the reduced bonus once per scene until the wound is tended.

Additionally, an assessment would only be necessary if you don't know the wound is there.  If you caused the wound, then you know it's there.  You can tag it for the reduced bonus once per scene for free until its tended.  If you were there and in a reasonable position to notice a person becoming wounded, then you know about it and won't need to make an assessment.  Someone could even spend a fatepoint or make a Contacts declaration to have been told about the wound.  The benefit to this over placing any other aspect is that it's free each scene rather only once and done requiring fate points after.

EDIT:  If an opponent is applying enough pressure, this could add up to quite a big bonus from an injury.  It makes having a character with the doctor stunt rather valuable.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 15, 2015, 07:17:00 PM
Ah, I forgot a part of my thought.  It would be a free tag for the reduced bonus once per scene until the wound is tended.
For anyone?  That would certainly make medical treatment useful.  How would it work with recovery?

Additionally, an assessment would only be necessary if you don't know the wound is there.  If you caused the wound, then you know it's there.  You can tag it for the reduced bonus once per scene for free until its tended.  If you were there and in a reasonable position to notice a person becoming wounded, then you know about it and won't need to make an assessment.  Someone could even spend a fatepoint or make a Contacts declaration to have been told about the wound.  The benefit to this over placing any other aspect is that it's free each scene rather only once and done requiring fate points after.

Whoever creates/discovers the aspect can tag it - they can choose to pass the tag to someone else, but don't have to.  Also, you can make assessments with a contacts roll - you don't need to spend a FP because you used contacts to discover it.  But you only get the tag once, unless you're talking about the house-rule.

You need to make an assessment or declaration for any tag - although, it might be so easy that it doesn't require a roll.  To assess/declare "shadowy corners" requires a roll - whether or not it's already on the scene and fairly obvious.  I'm not sure I'd allow people to get free tags without rolling, spending an action or a fp.  buuuuut....that said, see below:

when I started playing the game, I assumed that, if I created an aspect, I could tag it once/scene as long as it existed.  I got this from the description of Addictive Saliva, so I assumed that's how the rules for long-term aspects worked across the board.

I dropped that interpretation because no-one else seemed to use it...not really because anyone convinced me otherwise.

EDIT:  If an opponent is applying enough pressure, this could add up to quite a big bonus from an injury.  It makes having a character with the doctor stunt rather valuable.

So, if you go by the free tag/scene interpretation, it does make it more valuable.  But who gets the tag?  Anyone?  the person who created it?
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Theogony_IX on April 15, 2015, 07:32:08 PM
Yeah, these would be house rules for consequence-specific aspects.  Other aspects would work as they normally do.

Only someone who could reasonably know about the consequence would get the per scene free tag.  Anyone else would need to make a declaration to be told about it, or roll an assessment to discover it.

NPC 1 inflicts the consequence.  He gets a full free tag until the end of the scene.  Every scene after he gets one reduced bonus free tag until the wound is tended.
NPC 2 was standing right next to NPC 1 when the consequence was inflicted.  She probably shouldn't get a reduced bonus free tag that scene, but for every scene after that she would until the wound is tended.
NPC 3 was in a different zone and not paying attention when the consequence was inflicted.  He would need to make an assessment or declaration.  The difficulty would be very easy since he's friends with NPC 1 and NPC 2.
NPC 4 was out getting lunch and is not associated with the other NPCs.  She would need to make an assessment as if it were any other aspect to get any tags at all, and the first would likely be a full bonus tag.


Just kinda thinking as we go here.


EDIT:  If it's based solely on starting the healing process, it would seem to give an inadvertent benefit to recovery powers since they start the healing process automatically.  However, if it's specific to tending wounds and not related to beginning the healing process this benefit would be avoided.  This would make getting a wound tended important for those with recovery powers too, but not as important since they heal fast anyway.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 15, 2015, 07:42:06 PM
I think anyone who creates a consequence should get a free tag every scene anyways.

- It's already a rule for addictive saliva
- It makes sense for White Court Thralls who have Lasting Emotion:  they create a mental consequence related to lust(or whatever) and then they tag it in new scenes to compel victims to come back for more.  Since they don't have the FP's to spend, free tags make the most sense and allows WCV's to have access to a steady supply of food.  The books reinforce this kind of mental control over their victims.
- We're looking to revamp consequences anyways, so it seems reasonable.
- medical treatment should help fight addiction anyways.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: sdfds68 on April 15, 2015, 10:33:19 PM
Don't put up the variants if they're terrible, but I'm curious; what other games are the other variants for?

The second one would better with Atomic Robo or other fate core stuff, since it simplifies healing and works best with a tightly bound system of skills and stunts. DFRPG would probably work poorly with it because of detailed variation in both stunts and powers, and the level of flexibility those refresh costers give in character building in comparison to what I've seen in the other fate core rule books.

The third could, with some work, be worked into the gadget and stunt system of Spirit of the Century. I'd need to do some rewriting, but it'd be fine with SOTCs easygoing setting and stress tracks.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Remi on April 15, 2015, 11:02:19 PM
There are also wounds that even if healed on there own, heal better with a doctor.  Broken bones are a prime example.  You can break a bone and let it heal on its own, but it might heal crooked.  Moderate flesh wounds that could use stitches can heal on their own, but there is also a chance they get infected and worsen instead.

This suggests a different approach to explaining why the Doctor stunt is useful. The rules say that medical treatment is needed to start the healing process for consequences, but stops there.

In real life, wounds represented by severe consequences will eventually cripple or kill you if left untreated. A broken bone that isn't set properly will leave you in agonizing pain and can potentially splinter further. If it breaks the skin you can develop sepsis. Even something as simple as a sprained ankle can cause more serious injury if an unbound ankle gives way at an inopportune time and you wind up tearing your ACL as well.

So, instead of looking at what extra benefit going to the doctor provides, you might consider what harm not going to the doctor will cause: consequences could go up a level without proper treatment (moderate to severe and severe to extreme) if you continue to stress yourself.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Theogony_IX on April 16, 2015, 12:34:40 AM
So, instead of looking at what extra benefit going to the doctor provides, you might consider what harm not going to the doctor will cause: consequences could go up a level without proper treatment (moderate to severe and severe to extreme) if you continue to stress yourself.

That's an interesting take on it.  Just running with that idea a bit here:

I know DFRPG doesn't really like to inflict penalties, but you might give a -1 penalty to all rolls if a moderate or severe injury isn't tended by a doctor by the second scene following the injury.  Then you could up that by 1 for every 2 scenes after that until the injury heals.

Having this penalty apply to injuries whether you've begun the healing process or not is how the doctor stunt/mundane medicine shines.  The difference is that without Wizard's Consitution or a Recovery Power the wound could remain forever and the penalties eventually prevent you from doing anything.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 16, 2015, 02:25:05 AM
Okay, so how about...

Quote
All consequences heal on their own.

If a consequence hasn't been attended to, it can be tagged once per scene for free.

Tending to a consequence requires a stunt-aided skill roll, Thaumaturgy with a stunt, or an actual healing Power. The GM sets the difficulty based on the available medical equipment, the nature of the consequence, the available time, and their own whims.

If the roll succeeds, rename the consequence slightly and it can't be tagged every scene anymore. If the roll succeeds strongly and there's magic involved, rename the consequence completely and most invokes and Compels become inappropriate.

Going to the hospital reliably gets you a successful roll, though it can take a while. If the GM cares to roll for the hospital, their policy is to take as much extra time as they need to.

Consequences sometimes worsen as the result of a Compel. Some people have Recovery and a HEALS WRONG Aspect that gives them stuff like fused bones.

Inhuman Recovery automatically tends to moderate and mild consequences. Supernatural Recovery automatically tends to non-extreme consequences. Mythic Recovery automatically tends to all consequences.

Wizard's Constitution doesn't affect healing, just ageing.

Actual healing Powers can remove consequences outright, but a limited number of times per session. So it's really a lot like buying extra consequences with stunts, except not for yourself.

I think there's potential there.

PS: If we're meddling with Recovery, we might want to move some power from the Inhuman level to the Mythic level. Because Recovery is really quite front-loaded. Not sure what the best way to do it is, though.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Cadd on April 16, 2015, 10:33:19 AM
PS: If we're meddling with Recovery, we might want to move some power from the Inhuman level to the Mythic level. Because Recovery is really quite front-loaded. Not sure what the best way to do it is, though.
Maybe do something with the Shrug It Off, It's Nothing and Ha! You Call That Hit? trappings? Would it be too much of a nerf to just bump those up one tier each? So Inhuman can't clear consequence mid-combat, Supernatural can do it once and Mythic can do it twice? A downside is of course that Inhuman becomes much more passive as there's no active choice at all...
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 16, 2015, 09:38:35 PM
It wouldn't be a huge nerf, but it also wouldn't do anything to address the problem. The problem isn't that Recovery is too good, it's that most of the goodness is at the Inhuman level and little of it is at the Mythic level.

Maybe we could make it so that Inhuman can't clear milds, Supernatural is unchanged, and Mythic can clear milds endlessly. That sounds really powerful, but taking a -1 penalty to your roll and giving away a tag is actually a pretty high cost to pay for armour 2.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Cadd on April 16, 2015, 09:59:57 PM
That's sort of what I was after, to actually remove the mid-combat clearing entirely from Inhuman.
You're probably correct actually that while it looks broken to let Mythic clear endlessly, it's probably not that big a deal. I haven't seen enough play with Mythic anything to really have a feel for it :p
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 16, 2015, 10:25:36 PM
I think Mythic should heal moderate consequences in combat...but maybe that's too powerful.

Inhuman = one mild
Super = two mild
Mythic = 1 mild +1 moderate.

Or maybe you just say,
Inhuman can heal 2 stress worth of consequences  - rounded to the nearest consequence (which is a mild)
Supernatural can heal 4 stress (so 2 mild or 1 moderate)
Mythic can heal 6 stress (3 mild; 1 moderate/1 mild; 1 severe)
per scene.

So, even though the numbers are the same, Mythic has waaay more flexibility.  Those powers get rid of those consequences by the beginning of the next scene anyways.

I've kind of lost track of where we are regarding the thread.  I'm going to have to re-read from a page back.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 19, 2015, 06:22:28 PM
I like that idea. It's an apparently-small change, but taking a temporary severe is much better than taking three temporary milds. It's one tag and supplemental action penalty instead of three.

As for what you missed, I made a proposal that I think has potential.

Quote
All consequences heal on their own.

If a consequence hasn't been attended to, it can be tagged once per scene for free.

Tending to a consequence requires a stunt-aided skill roll, Thaumaturgy with a stunt, or an actual healing Power. The GM sets the difficulty based on the available medical equipment, the nature of the consequence, the available time, and their own whims.

If the roll succeeds, rename the consequence slightly and it can't be tagged every scene anymore. If the roll succeeds strongly and there's magic involved, rename the consequence completely and most invokes and Compels become inappropriate.

Going to the hospital reliably gets you a successful roll, though it can take a while. If the GM cares to roll for the hospital, their policy is to take as much extra time as they need to.

Consequences sometimes worsen as the result of a Compel. Some people have Recovery and a HEALS WRONG Aspect that gives them stuff like fused bones.

Inhuman Recovery automatically tends to moderate and mild consequences. Supernatural Recovery automatically tends to non-extreme consequences. Mythic Recovery automatically tends to all consequences.

Wizard's Constitution doesn't affect healing, just ageing.

Actual healing Powers can remove consequences outright, but a limited number of times per session. So it's really a lot like buying extra consequences with stunts, except not for yourself.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Theogony_IX on April 20, 2015, 06:58:48 PM
Sanctaphrax's suggestion seems pretty solid as well.

Inhuman Recovery automatically tends to moderate and mild consequences. Supernatural Recovery automatically tends to non-extreme consequences. Mythic Recovery automatically tends to all consequences.

But I want to point out that this part provides an additional advantage to recovery powers that will need to be watched in testing the idea.  It may make having a recovery power an auto-choice if the group doesn't have a doctor/healer simply if the disadvantage of the new consequence rules turns out be feel especially intense however appropriate.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on April 20, 2015, 09:37:47 PM
Quote
All consequences heal on their own.

If a consequence hasn't been attended to, it can be tagged once per scene for free.

Tending to a consequence requires a stunt-aided skill roll, Thaumaturgy with a stunt, or an actual healing Power. The GM sets the difficulty based on the available medical equipment, the nature of the consequence, the available time, and their own whims.

If the roll succeeds, rename the consequence slightly and it can't be tagged every scene anymore. If the roll succeeds strongly and there's magic involved, rename the consequence completely and most invokes and Compels become inappropriate.

Going to the hospital reliably gets you a successful roll, though it can take a while. If the GM cares to roll for the hospital, their policy is to take as much extra time as they need to.

This seems all good.  Getting a free tag every scene on a consequence is well worth going to the hospital to fix.  Can you try to hide the wound if you can't tend it?  would that prevent the free tag?

Quote
Consequences sometimes worsen as the result of a Compel. Some people have Recovery and a HEALS WRONG Aspect that gives them stuff like fused bones.

This seems weird.  I'm not sure how to adjudicate that.  Does it become a permanent aspect change?  Is it any worse than having a regular consequence?  Does medical help fix it?  If you have recovery, but don't set your bones, can they still heal wrong?  If it's permanent, can it still be tagged for free until fixed?

Quote
Inhuman Recovery automatically tends to moderate and mild consequences. Supernatural Recovery automatically tends to non-extreme consequences. Mythic Recovery automatically tends to all consequences.

I like recovery as-is.  Maybe with the change I suggested, it'd give Mythic a bit more Oomph.  As I mentioned above, you could have a situation where something heals wrong, even if it heals quick.  On the other hand, it already does what you're suggesting (except for extreme), so it's not a big change.

Quote
Wizard's Constitution doesn't affect healing, just ageing.
I'm fine with this.

Quote
Actual healing Powers can remove consequences outright, but a limited number of times per session. So it's really a lot like buying extra consequences with stunts, except not for yourself.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Could you give an example?
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 21, 2015, 01:11:32 AM
But I want to point out that this part provides an additional advantage to recovery powers that will need to be watched in testing the idea.  It may make having a recovery power an auto-choice if the group doesn't have a doctor/healer simply if the disadvantage of the new consequence rules turns out be feel especially intense however appropriate.

It does make Recovery a little better, but it only affects consequences that are reduced to mild level by your Recovery anyway (except for Mythic Recovery affecting extremes, but extremes are super rare). So it probably won't affect the game too much.

Can you try to hide the wound if you can't tend it?  would that prevent the free tag?

You can definitely hide wounds, but it might not prevent tagging. An opponent can still get an advantage from you being weakened even if they don't know about it, after all.

This seems weird.  I'm not sure how to adjudicate that.  Does it become a permanent aspect change?  Is it any worse than having a regular consequence?  Does medical help fix it?  If you have recovery, but don't set your bones, can they still heal wrong?  If it's permanent, can it still be tagged for free until fixed?

It's a Compel, so it's open-ended. But I was thinking the default would be something like...

"I'm Compelling the FILTHY HOVEL Aspect of your home. If you accept, your moderate NICKED ARM consequence becomes a severe INFECTED WOUND consequence."

or

"I'm Compelling your HEALS WRONG Aspect. If you accept, your severe BROKEN LEG consequence becomes a moderate FUSED KNEE consequence and heals as though you didn't have Mythic Recovery."

On the other hand, it already does what you're suggesting (except for extreme), so it's not a big change.

That's not quite true. Someone with Inhuman Recovery who takes a moderate consequence in this scene will carry it through next scene. If it's not tended to automatically, it'll be taggable in that next scene.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Could you give an example?

Faith Healing [-2]
You may use Conviction to tend to mental and physical consequences of any severity. Once per session, when you succeed by at least 3 while tending to a mild or moderate consequence, you may erase that consequence completely instead of renaming it completely.
More Healing [-1]. You may erase a consequence an additional time per session. You may take this upgrade multiple times.

Not sure if that writeup is ready for prime time, but it should serve as an example.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 04, 2015, 01:45:06 AM
So, part of the point of this thread was to create a solid foundation for the creation of healing Powers. I'm gonna take a crack at a power based off this (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,44745.0.html) and this (http://dfrpg-resources.wikispaces.com/Healing).

HEALING [-1]
Description: You possess the magical ability to heal others. Perhaps you can help people recover from psychological trauma with your musical genius, or perhaps you can knit flesh and bone back together through sheer faith.
Note: This power uses one skill and applies to one stress track. Choose which skill and which stress track when you take this power. Any combination is permissible as long as the group is not offended by it.
Skills Affected: Pick one.
Effects:
Heal. You may use your chosen skill to treat consequences of your chosen stress track. If you beat the difficulty to treat by 3 or more, you may heal the consequence completely. If you do so, the consequence Aspect is removed. However, the consequence slot doesn't become usable again until the normal recovery time has passed. This power may or may not affect extreme consequences; GMs should handle such issues on a case by case basis.
Widened Healing [-1]. You may use your chosen skill to heal consequences from any stress track.
Powerful Healing [-1]. When you heal a consequence completely with this Power, you may free up the consequence slot so that the healed character may fill it with a new consequence. You may only do this for four shifts of consequences per session, but you may purchase this option multiple times to add four additional shifts per purchase.
Sacrificial Healing [-1]. Instead of rolling to heal a consequence, you may transfer it from someone else to yourself. If you do, your new consequence is automatically treated but is not affected by Recovery Powers. Depending on how this Power is flavoured, transferred consequences may or may not be renamed.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on May 04, 2015, 01:57:22 AM
Suggestions:

Quote
Heal. You may use your chosen skill to treat consequences of your chosen stress track. If you beat the difficulty to treat by 3 or more, you may heal the consequence completely. If you do so, the consequence Aspect is removed. However, the consequence slot doesn't become usable again until the normal recovery time has passed. This power may or may not affect extreme consequences; GMs should handle such issues on a case by case basis.

Heal:  succeeding by the exact shift should treat the wound, so that people don't get the free tag every scene and rename the consequence to reflect that it's been tended.

Beating it by 3 shifts removes it, as you said.

Also,
1.  How long does it take?  One exchange?  Can it be done in combat?

2. how often can I do this?  If I fail, can I just keep retrying until I succeed?  If I'm not under any time pressure, can I just stack maneuvers until I succeed?  If everyone is injured can I just do it on everyone?  What kinds of limitations are there?  Can a big failure cause things to mend poorly or would that be a compel?


Quote
Widened Healing [-1]. You may use your chosen skill to heal consequences from any stress track.
I think it you should just get to choose one other type of stress track.  So you'd need to buy this power twice if you want to heal all three stress tracks.  That said...how does one magically heal social stress?  So maybe it's irrelevant.

Quote
Powerful Healing [-1]. When you heal a consequence completely with this Power, you may free up the consequence slot so that the healed character may fill it with a new consequence. You may only do this for four shifts of consequences per session, but you may purchase this option multiple times to add four additional shifts per purchase.

I don't understand this.  Maybe it's the wording.  4 shifts?  Like 2 minors or a moderate?  Buying the power twice means you could heal up to any combination of consequences as long as their total value don't exceed 8?
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 05, 2015, 03:03:39 AM
Heal:  succeeding by the exact shift should treat the wound, so that people don't get the free tag every scene and rename the consequence to reflect that it's been tended.

Yep. I meant that to come across in the Power writeup, but apparently it wasn't clear. I should probably reword it, or write the healing rules in a way that makes it clearer through context.

Also,
1.  How long does it take?  One exchange?  Can it be done in combat?

2. how often can I do this?  If I fail, can I just keep retrying until I succeed?  If I'm not under any time pressure, can I just stack maneuvers until I succeed?  If everyone is injured can I just do it on everyone?  What kinds of limitations are there?  Can a big failure cause things to mend poorly or would that be a compel?

I was thinking it would use the default wound-treatment rules here...whatever those are.

The idea is that it's exactly like normal medical treatment, except you use a different skill and no tools. Plus you get an extra bonus if you succeed with style.

I guess I should post the Healing Power together with the rules it would work under.

I think it you should just get to choose one other type of stress track.  So you'd need to buy this power twice if you want to heal all three stress tracks.  That said...how does one magically heal social stress?  So maybe it's irrelevant.

You have a point. Healing social stress magically is weird. And anyway, I like the way that in DFRPG social combat between mortals and gods is actually more or less fair.

So yeah, in the next draft I'll remove the option to heal social consequences. Some social consequences are mental-esque enough that they probably should be treatable with this, but whatever. Gotta sacrifice something.

I don't understand this.  Maybe it's the wording.  4 shifts?  Like 2 minors or a moderate?  Buying the power twice means you could heal up to any combination of consequences as long as their total value don't exceed 8?

That's the idea. Any suggestions for making it clearer?
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on May 05, 2015, 04:23:18 AM
Quote
That's the idea. Any suggestions for making it clearer?

Not at this exact moment because it's late and my brain is fried.  but...

Would you consider taking these rules for a spin in Enduring the Apocalypse?

Medical treatment won't really come into play since everyone has recovery - so no free tags every scene.  But having recovery heal a number of shifts of consequences instead of 1,2,3 milds.

...you know, I also just used the term "shifts of consequences" so maybe the phrasing of the power is fine.  Maybe just include an example to clarify.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 06, 2015, 02:24:21 AM
Sure, we can give it a try. I'll post a note in the OoC thread to that effect.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on May 27, 2015, 03:29:12 AM
I'm just having a discussion about magical healing and had an idea.

Much of the magical healing ideas are based on consequence.  This many shifts of complexity is = to the severity of the consequence <<insert formula>>

What if you made it like this:

Base complexity (or difficulty of check if you're using a power)
Lets you heal a consequence at its normal rate.
Then, you have to add complexity (or shifts of success) to decrease the time it takes to heal.

For a ritual, the quickest you could heal a consequence would be the amount of time it takes to do the ritual. "A scene".

A power might be quicker but you can't get as many shifts from a straight skill roll.

example:
Severe consequence takes 3 weeks to heal

Quote from: your story
In terms of story time, recovering from a mild
consequence takes about an hour. Recovering
from a moderate consequence takes anywhere
from a day to a week. Recovering from a severe
consequence takes several weeks to a couple of
months.

Base complexity to start the healing process is 6 (since that's the mundane roll for healing and the base complexity listed under biomancy

Quote
The main advantage of healing magic in
the game is in providing justification to begin
the recovery process (page 220) without any
other effort. Use the shift value of the consequence
(which you can stack together for
multiple consequences) as the spell complexity.

funny enough, it specifically says biomancy CAN'T reduce healing time.)

Now, in 3 weeks your severe will finally go away (at the end of the scenario)
Add 8 shifts and that severe will go away by the end of the ritual (15 minutes)
Total complexity = 14

Or, if that's too easy, you have to stack the consequences. 
Severe to moderate=6+3(month to a few days)=9
+reducing a moderate to a minor = 4+4(a few days to an hour)=8
+reducing a minor to nothing = 2+2 (an hour to 15minute/one scene)=4
Total complexity to heal a severe in one ritual =21
A power that can be done in combat would have to add another 4 shifts.

If you have a recovery power, use that as your base recovery time.  So it doesn't change the consequence slot...you still have a severe, you're just changing how much time it takes to heal.

It's not perfect but it's Just food for thought.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Theogony_IX on May 27, 2015, 07:00:33 PM
funny enough, it specifically says biomancy CAN'T reduce healing time.)

I saw that too, then the book goes and shows the Reiki Healing Spell pages later.  Yeah . . .

Anyway, your math for that heal a Severe completely isn't much different than the math I came up using the Paranet Papers rules for the transformation spells.  It gives a person recovery powers with the house rule developed in this thread to affect higher levels of consequences.  See below:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Haru on May 27, 2015, 07:26:19 PM
I just thought that healing a wound and freeing a consequence don't really have to be the same thing. You can already heal a wound without removing the consequence by renaming it. You could free the consequence without removing the wound as well, having it stick around as a regular aspect rather than a consequence. Not really sure where to go with that, but maybe that's something to work with to fit both the no magical healing bit and the desire for more consequences to use. Then again, you could always just allow more consequences then.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on May 27, 2015, 07:48:18 PM
Well, by YS, both medical healing and magical healing are the same.  The difficulty for starting healing is equal to the consequence and neither can actually increase healing time.

The only thing that lets you do it is spending refresh on recovery powers or taking a temporary power.

If you're going to allow magical healing to reduce recovery time then, by default, you should allow mundane healing to do the same.

So, what if you took that complexity for a ritual and applied it to mundane medical treatment?

Maybe with an extended test(using multiple rolls) where each roll is a set amount of time and the less rolls you use the quicker your wounds heal

or a single test.

The base difficulty is the quality of the wound and shifts of success reduce the healing time based on the time chart.  Rituals will, in general be quicker because of how you build up complexity but a hospital stay can give you access to lots of aspects, declarations and high quality skill rolls.

Although, I suppose, there should be a cap on what mundane healing can do or a minimum to which you can drop specific severities of consequences.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on May 27, 2015, 07:52:13 PM
double-post:

Quote
Since you're removing a consequence and not inflicting one, you need to provide the power that would normally come from the consequence yourself.

3 + 2x2(inhuman recovery) + 2(mild) = 9;
3 + 2x4(supernatural recovery) + 4(moderate) = 15;
3 + 2x6(mythic recovery) + 6(severe) = 21.

this means  you get those recovery powers for one scene.  Which means you only get the 'quick healing' for that scene and not the extended recovery that is so useful.  So, to get the extended recovery from, say, supernatural recovery, you'd need to put duration in order to have it last beyond the next scene?
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Theogony_IX on May 27, 2015, 08:13:57 PM
double-post:

this means  you get those recovery powers for one scene.  Which means you only get the 'quick healing' for that scene and not the extended recovery that is so useful.  So, to get the extended recovery from, say, supernatural recovery, you'd need to put duration in order to have it last beyond the next scene?

Yeah, the book states that the duration starts from "a few minutes," and you add duration at 1 shift per step up the time ladder from there.  That is if you are actually wanting to grant those powers though.  My examples were just a framework to model a healing spell and not meant to actually confer those powers.  If someone actually wanted to confer those powers, I would require the consequence to come from the target like it says in the book (i.e. the target's metabolism isn't designed to heal the body so swiftly and so internal damage is inflicted.  Consequence aspect = "Temporary Diabetes").  EDIT: But that's weird with a recovery power anyway. lol
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 15, 2015, 02:57:25 AM
Alright, here's a set of house rules intended to make medical treatment more important and magical healing more possible.

Feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Consequences

All consequences start healing immediately, with no medical treatment required. But if a consequence hasn't been treated, once per scene the GM can Compel it without giving the character a Fate Point. The GM may also have an NPC tag the consequence instead of Compelling it.

Any character can treat a mild physical consequence with a Scholarship roll, a first aid kit, and a few minutes. Treating more significant consequences requires a stunt or power, more time, and better equipment. The difficulty of the roll is up to the GM, but it generally starts around the amount of stress the consequence absorbed and then is increased or decreased based on the available time and equipment.

Treating mental and social consequences uses the same rules, except equipment isn't required and Empathy is the skill used.

Once a consequence is successfully treated, rename it slightly and it can't be tagged every scene anymore.

Going to the hospital reliably gets you a successful roll, though it can take a while. If the GM cares to roll for the hospital, their policy is to take as much extra time as they need to. Similarly, friends, therapists, churches and support groups can provide reliable but slow care for mental and social consequences.

The ability to treat serious consequences on a stress track with a skill is worth about half a stunt. A single stunt can let you treat all consequences with a skill, or let you treat consequences on a single stress track and grant some other bonus as well. A character who can treat serious consequences is by default able to handle similar problems like diseases.

Example Stunts

Priestly Counsel (Conviction): You may use Conviction to treat mental and social consequences. When doing so for a Christian character, add 1 to your Conviction.
Doctor (Scholarship): You may use Scholarship to treat any physical consequence. In addition, pick a field of medicine. Add 2 to your Scholarship when dealing with that field.
Inspirational Music (Performance): You may use Performance to treat mental consequences. In addition, you get +1 to Performance when trying to make people feel uplifted or inspired.

Magical Healing

Thaumaturgy with a complexity equal to the difficulty of the treatment roll can treat a consequence. However, a character without a stunt letting them treat consequences doesn't understand the human body/mind well enough to do this barring exceptional circumstances.

When using thaumaturgy to treat a consequence, you may add to the ritual's complexity in order to rename the consequence more significantly. A CHEST WOUND could become a MAGICALLY HEALED CHEST. It would still occupy the same consequence slot, though.

Plus, there's a Healing Power.

(click to show/hide)

Recovery

Wizard's Constitution has nothing to do with recovery.

Inhuman Recovery automatically treats your mild and moderate physical consequences. Plus it accelerates healing as in Your Story.

Supernatural Recovery automatically treats your non-extreme physical consequences. Plus it accelerates healing as in Your Story, except you may clear moderate physical consequences with It's Nothing. You may use It's Nothing on up to 4 shifts of consequences per scene (that is, a moderate or two milds).
.
Mythic Recovery automatically treats your physical consequences. Plus it accelerates healing as in Your Story, except you may clear moderate and severe physical consequences with Ha! You Call That A Hit?. You may use Ha! You Call That A Hit? on up to 6 shifts of consequences per scene (that is, a severe or a moderate and a mild or three milds).
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on June 15, 2015, 03:11:26 AM
I think that's all fine.

Question regarding the free tag.  Let's say they have an untreated mental moderate consequence.

How do people tag it.  Usually, these kinds of consequences come up as you RP - you discover it, then you tag it.

I guess my question is how would you present a 'non-obvious' consequence to PC's so that they can tag it?

I asked this before, but it's worth asking again:  can you use an alternate skill to 'cover up' the wound temporarily so it can't be tagged?  Such as using a disguise to cover up an arm cast...  What would the difficulty be?  The same as the treatment check?
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 15, 2015, 03:19:21 AM
I could just tell them OoC.

Or I could not tell them at all. The GM owns the consequence tag/Compel, so I can just use it myself or leave it unused.

Or I could add +2 to one of their rolls. Basically invoking it for them.

Dunno which approach is best.

Disguising a consequence would be a good maneuver, but in most cases I don't think it'd prevent tagging/Compelling. A broken arm is still a problem even if nobody knows about it. And invokes are usually OoC.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 20, 2015, 08:46:32 PM
Does nobody else have anything to say?
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Theogony_IX on June 22, 2015, 09:37:28 PM
I'm curious about your refresh cost for Powerful Healing.  Is it only 2 refresh because you have to roll 3 greater than the difficulty and that's fairly difficult for higher consequences?

Also, can a person with the Healing power take more time to treat the consequence per the Time Chart if they fail the roll?  If they do fail the roll, are there any consequences, and when can they try again?
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Taran on June 22, 2015, 10:25:37 PM
Quote
Also, can a person with the Healing power take more time to treat the consequence per the Time Chart if they fail the roll?

You can, in most situations, just take extra time to bring your result up.  Each step on the time-chart is another shift towards the difficulty.

I'm also curious if you can try again...like, if you fail, and don't want to spend the extra time...
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 23, 2015, 12:29:27 AM
I'm curious about your refresh cost for Powerful Healing.  Is it only 2 refresh because you have to roll 3 greater than the difficulty and that's fairly difficult for higher consequences?

Healing costs 1 Refresh because it's quite similar to a stunt letting you treat consequences.

The Powerful Healing upgrade gives 4 consequence shifts/Refresh because two mild consequences with some kind of usage restriction is a standard stunt effect.

Also, can a person with the Healing power take more time to treat the consequence per the Time Chart if they fail the roll?  If they do fail the roll, are there any consequences, and when can they try again?

They can take extra time, since they use the regular treatment rules. For the same reason, nothing happens when they fail.

I think taking extra time is probably the best way to represent trying again. Keeps rolls meaningful.
Title: Re: Medical Treatment
Post by: Theogony_IX on June 23, 2015, 05:10:37 PM
Seems pretty solid to me.  I might bring it up in my game for a test run.