Since a veil is a spell, doesn't it have duration built into it?
Because if that's the case, the veil would stay up when the attacker is attacking, just like any other block made with spellcasting powers, right?
Basically, a veil is going to prevent a conflict from ever forming, if it is kept up. I would go for a different kind of mechanic until it becomes a conflict.
Veils during a conflict can simply be resolved as blocks. It might be a bit weird to "block" a gunshot with a veil, but it's also weird to "see" someone with a gunshot. That's just the level of abstraction the system is working at.
3. Attack skill modified by alertness makes sense. BUT I wouldn't make the shifts added by alertness add into extra damage. Just use it for figuring out if the veil is down or not.
ex. You want to throw a rock with weapons value 0. You lean back to toss the rock and roll (effective 5 aim). The mage has to roll discipline to keep the veil up against those shifts since the act of throwing it would disrupt the veil unless he could control it. The reasoning is because you cant underhand toss a rock and expect to do any damage so you really have to wind up and chuck it. Whole body moving for the chuck could disrupt the veil.
Veils are sometimes spells and sometimes not spells. And Stealth rolls are pretty much never spells.
Regardless of the reason people don't know where you are...attacking them is going to give them some clues. And that's a good thing, because being hidden is really powerful.
That's also why I don't want to give automatic ambushes to hidden folks. It's too strong. And anyway, if there's a fight on their guard is probably up even if they can't see you.
If it's not a spell, then it's just an ordinary block or maneuver, not matter how many weird powers or declarations or whatever are involved. If it is a spell, it runs out at some point.
Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by 'being hidden.' What mechanics are you referring to that allow characters to 'hide' besides spellcasting and the stealth skill?
Hidden folks do not have automatic ambushes. You have to roll to set up an ambush with the stealth skill, and that is going to be opposed by whomever you're trying to hide from. But some people could repeatedly ambush during a fight if they have a way to hide themselves even during combat, such as spending enough fate points or have an appropriate stunt/power.
A GM doesn't have to allow this, and can certainly houserule that this type of behavior isn't allowed, but as far as I know it's just part of the system.
Spells create blocks maneuvers. So it's almost irrelevant whether the veil comes from a spell or not.
A veil is specifically a block on Perception - regardless whether or not it's created by a glamour, spell or stealth.
The difference between a spell and a glamour/stealth is that, regardless of duration, once you overcome a spell block, it goes away. This is not necessarily so with a glamour.
This is a matter of interpretation. They say a veil replaces your stealth....but a veil does not necessarily give you the "AMBUSH" trapping of stealth.
Your GM may still adjudicate that you have to make a Stealth skill check for an ambush, even if your veil is of epic calibre....
Some people just let the veil determine the quality of an ambush.
A spell made block has a built in time limit, due to persistence. A block made 'with' glamour isn't made by the power, it's made a skill roll. After it's been overcome, the block is gone, but the narrative power of the glamour is still present.I can't argue with the glamour. I find it a bit hazy, mechanically. I use them like any other skill block. I allow a block created by a skill to stay as long as its narratively appropriate.
Someone using glamour would still need to make skill rolls to make a new block versus perception, but they wouldn't need a narrative reason to explain why this is possible, unlike someone with just a stealth skill, because they can rely on their spent refresh to cover that.
I don't understand. A trapping is part of the skill. How you can replace the skill without also replacing all of the trappings?
Also, how is a veil not a skill roll or spell?
Yes, everything is simple enough until it becomes a conflict. This thread is about what happens once the conflict starts.I was trying to answer that, apologies if it wasn't clear. We are in agreement that veils in conflict can complicate things. My solution is to not start a conflict until all veils are resolved or break a conflict if a veil becomes predominant. That way the two never meet and don't make any problems.
So you'd let people know where their veiled opponents are, even if they can't see them?Well, sort of. I don't have a problem with the players knowing, and I can veto any directed action that the character wouldn't have enough knowledge to do (though they might get lucky by spending a fate point). But zone attacks, for example, are seldom a problem and that's usually the solution people come up with to deal with a veiled foe.
I'm sorry, I've been arguing while under some misconceptions about the rules. I assumed that ambushes were 'free' whenever someone successfully managed not to be noticed by other characters, rather than being a trapping of a specific skill. I also assumed that evocation allowed skill replacement on the fly, which is definitely not in YS.
I also don't let people do very much while under a veil. You can cower there for as long as you like, but you won't be able to do anything either. If nobody can do anything we are at a stalemate and I would break the scene to solve it another way. Probably hold a short contest and give an ambush like bonus to the victor.
1. I don't think alertness should modify your attack. It should RESTRICT. You should never get a bonus to attack someone who's invisible.
3. How I like to treat a veil is similar to a Grapple, where narratively appropriate actions break the veil. Just because someone behind a glamour shoots you, doesn't necessarily make you visible.
I like the idea of chipping away at a veil though. What if you could have a successful attack lower the total of a veil (making it easier for everyone to see you). Kind of like a ward.
Example: veil strength 5.
I roll a weapons of 7 restricted by alertness = 6
I can choose to do damage 1 shift + weapon damage
or I can take that shift and have it lower the veil to 4. Narratively, the person is trailing blood, or something similar making it easier to spot them. You'd need to spend another action to re-veil yourself, if you wanted to get it back to 5.
With a spell, if someone spots you, it ruins the spell so everyone can see you...which I find strange, but that seems to be the rules.
I was trying to answer that, apologies if it wasn't clear. We are in agreement that veils in conflict can complicate things. My solution is to not start a conflict until all veils are resolved or break a conflict if a veil becomes predominant. That way the two never meet and don't make any problems.
I also don't let people do very much while under a veil. You can cower there for as long as you like, but you won't be able to do anything either.
Under the rules I proposed, it would never be easier to hit an invisible person. You only use Alertness to modify if they replace their defence roll with the block, which they won't do unless it's better. And modifying can only add 1.
With a grapple, "narratively appropriate actions" basically means any actions taken by the grappled person. Because narrating is easy.
Similarly, people could pretty much always justify their actions while veiled as not revealing their position. And that's a problem, since veils are powerful enough already.
That would make veils really really powerful.Allowing a veil to stick around after someone attacks makes it more powerful but not moreso than a regular block.
Presumably they tell people where you are. And once people know where you are, it's easy for them to track your movements.
So what if someone decides to attack someone who can't see them? Say two groups of soldiers are fighting. One member of one group is hidden in a sniper post, and one member of the other group is wearing an invisibility cloak enchanted item that provides a veil. Nobody sees through the stealth attempts before the shooting starts.
I usually hate to add complication, but it may be necessary to differential the types of veils. Per the novels veils (and all illusions really) can be either mental (ie. dont notice me) or physical (ie I dont reflect light for your eyes to pick up). The first kind is far more binary, you are either Aware of the veiled person or not, and once you gain awareness things play out normally. By contrast the more physical "brute force" veils block each sense individually, but just because you are aware does not mean you can circumvent. For example: I can know that an invisible person is present in the room, and even maybe know exactly where they are via footprints or something, but they still have an advantage when it comes to punching me in the face because I cannot see the fist itself coming. If, however, I am a very talented boxer, say, I might be more able to guess based on the shifts of weight, etc. in the footprints. How many of the senses the veil covers will affect it too, and differently based on the sensory nature of the detector.
What if comes down to is if Awareness alone will invalidate teh stealth entirely, or if it can add continuing benefits
It's easier if you're getting a +1 to your weapons value when you'd normally get a +0 if they were visible. And just because they're using their veil to dodge, doesn't mean they're harder to hit: Maybe their dodge is better but they just rolled poorly.
You adjudicate grapple differently than I do, so I guess it's not a good example. I don't necessarily let successful attacks break a grapple.
You've misunderstood and have what I'm saying backwards. In the analogy, the veiled people are the grapplers, not the grapplees. So it's the people trying to find the veiled target who need the narrative justification, not the other way around.
Allowing a veil to stick around after someone attacks makes it more powerful but not moreso than a regular block.
Yeah, that's kind of the assumption I make but then glamours should work the same way.
Here's a suggestion that might be simpler.
If you are veiled, no-one can shoot you except with zone-wide attacks because they don't know you are there and can't target you.
Once you attack, you can be targeted. You can use the veil to dodge(take your dodge or veil, whichever is higher). If you used the veil to defend, it goes away - whether the attack hits or not. You've given away your position, but your hiddenness was enough to dodge(or almost dodge) that last attack.
It makes them marginally useful but not overpowered in a combat situation. Being veiled can save your skin...but only once. They're mostly for out-of-combat situations.
For attacking while veiled, instead of tracking a hiddeness factor, just give people free chances to spot you when you attack.
Options:
1. a)Once one person spots you, the veil is gone (easiest)
b)Once one person spots you, the veil no longer applies to that person, but still applies to everyone else who failed to spot you.(bookkeeping)
2. a) Every time you attack, everyone gets a chance to spot you for free
b) If they fail to spot you at the beginning of the combat, they get no more free alertness checks. They either have to spend an action or invoke an aspect to spot try to spot you for free.
I think it works well for the cloak of invisibility guy but maybe not the sniper. You need to spot a sniper before you can target him at all, even when he's shooting...but that just may be a distance thing. A good sniper is going to be at least 3 zones away, so you'd need another sniper to hit him(or a speed power)...but that's why snipers constantly change positions.
I wonder if number of zones should be a factor? I remember playing Battlefeild and having a sniper picking people off. You're hiding behind cover waiting for shots, trying to spot the muzzle-flash. You can't just shoot him because you don't even know what zone he's in.
Double post: regarding speed powers.
What if, when you attack, you have to make a reflexive stealth roll based on a static difficulty (let's say the highest enemy's alertness). If you fail, you become visible.
Or, if you're using a hiddenness factor, succeeding the stealth roll means your hiddenness doesn't drop.
- It makes stealth important, even when using magic or glamours and prevents high shift veils from getting over-powered
- It lets speed powers lower the difficulty based on the stealth trapping.
Inhuman speed would drop the difficulty be 2 shifts
Superhuman by 4
Mythic drops it to 0
Faster creatures stay hidden more easily.
Just a suggestion you may want to incorporate into whatever method you choose.
Regarding Ambushes: you could just limit it to the stealth skill. Allow veils to add an aspect "veiled" to the final ambush roll to boost the difficulty to spot it.
Once everyone is aware, you can no longer ambush.
I usually hate to add complication, but it may be necessary to differential the types of veils.
Random question before I get to responding: does anyone apply the "2 extra shifts for transparency" thing to Glamours veils? And how many of you actually remember to do that with Evocation veils?no 2 shifts for glamours.
Suppose someone's defence roll is a 3 and their veil strength is 4. I have Weapons 3 and Alertness 4. I attack, rolling a +0.
If they weren't veiled, I'd hit them with no extra shifts. Since they are...I also hit them with no extra shifts. This is the worst case scenario for the veil-haver, I think.
Really? I think my interpretation is a pretty literal reading of the book. Not seeing much room for interpretation there.
Well, that depends somewhat on how you handle ambushes and hidden information and stuff. But my main problem with persistent veils is that lasting veils are not very hard to get. I don't want Glamours to give your entire team a Superb shield all the time.
I also hate to add complication. And I think treating all veils the same way, with a bit of Aspect stuff to smooth the edges, ought to work well enough.
Going with simple. Let's get back to basics
Veils are blocks on perception. As soon as you have reason to believe that someone is invisible and start attacking them, you are no longer using perception. The veil is now a block vs attacks with the veil being the narrative fluff for why you miss.
With that in mind, how are blocks vs attacks adjudicated in combat?
Spell blocks, need duration. Any skill block, only lasts one exchange.
If someone is veiled and no-one notices them, it's the veil vs alertness/investigate. These types of actions tend to last an entire scene. Glamours are just 'up' and you roll your stealth as a reaction to alertness checks.
As soon as you do something to bring attention to yourself, the conflict(and the mechanics) have changed slightly. People are attacking you and your veil is now blocking attacks. Combat time is measured in exchanges and so are your spells. Your glamour would require you to maintain it every exchange(with an action) if you wanted it to be a block on attacks.
In the conflict where this was an issue, the character, Martin, would have had to spend an action every round to maintain his glamour (and the block on attacks) while everyone else did their thing. Pretty easy to adjudicate: he's maintaining a block and everyone else is acting normally...but they're invisible and therefore harder to hit. No real need for special rules. Assuming you let glamours veil multiple people in a combat...which it may not. Greater Glamours may be able to do this. Spells definitely can, but it costs 2 extra shifts. At the moment the conflict changes, give them one exchange of duration on whatever effect they have and let them persist if they like.
If you actually wanted to re-hide(disengage from combat), you might need to create a maneuver and tag for effect(or something). So people would have to look for you again. But you couldn't just attack without revealing yourself again.
It's not a concrete mechanic...just food for thought...but it solves the problem with persistent veils.
Random question before I get to responding: does anyone apply the "2 extra shifts for transparency" thing to Glamours veils?
Well, that depends somewhat on how you handle ambushes and hidden information and stuff. But my main problem with persistent veils is that lasting veils are not very hard to get. I don't want Glamours to give your entire team a Superb shield all the time.
And then of course there are thaumaturgical veils, which are even scarier.
I use the 2 shifts for regular veils, although, I've never seen those translucent veils actually hinder anyone. What do you need to spot if you're invisible? It almost never comes up. If it came down to it, I'd have it apply as a block to attack someone in an ambush.
You could say it only modifies IF the person chooses to use the veil to defend...
When you attack or maneuver against someone who's hidden, they can apply their hidden value as a block against your attack. If they do, your Alertness modifies whatever skill you used.
I think it's actually hard to break a grapple unless you devote an action to get free or actually attack the person grappling you in a way that makes narrative sense to escape. I think most people adjudicate it as easy and let pretty much any action break the grapple. (but I digress)
Making ambushing strictly the domain of stealth will alleviate that problem.
Veils are blocks on perception. As soon as you have reason to believe that someone is invisible and start attacking them, you are no longer using perception. The veil is now a block vs attacks with the veil being the narrative fluff for why you miss.
In the conflict where this was an issue, the character, Martin, would have had to spend an action every round to maintain his glamour (and the block on attacks) while everyone else did their thing. Pretty easy to adjudicate: he's maintaining a block and everyone else is acting normally...but they're invisible and therefore harder to hit. No real need for special rules.
One of my players has a pixie with glamours, so this does come up often. What I usually do is treat the veil as a maneuver when used offensively -- i.e., if the pixie veils a cop, the cop can tag that maneuver to boost his attack (or tag for effect to get a mini-ambush effect).
^^^ This makes the most sense. Treating a veil like any other block balances all of your in conflict concerns.
As far as modifying rolls against veils, if anything, I would only allow Investigation to compliment an attack roll. Alertness is passive awareness and shouldn't allow you to aim better. Investigation is active awareness and could.
I don't think that is practical. Glamours can "draw a veil over something (not particularly large—maybe the size of a
small, tight group of people)". IMO that means you can veil your PC group if you're all moving close together & coordinated, but not in a fight where people are moving around independently.
Not really. Thaum veils are "not usually mobile", so not practical for combat unless you are setting up and having the enemies come to you.
You can just veil each person individually.
They're not usually mobile. Which means that sometimes, they are mobile.
Fortunately, the GM has a lot of room for interpretation there and can keep things in check.
As for the original question: I don't really think you can be both hidden and actively involved in a fight. Once you attack or maneuver (well, except purely "self-targeted" maneuvers, IMO) you're revealed.That is certainly true for some types of veils, but there are several examples of others out there, traditional invisibility being the first one off-hand.
Moving is a penalty to Stealth (unless you have Speed powers). Veils are "magical Stealth rolls" so same for them, IMO.
A note for the thread in general: this isn't just about veils. These rules should also cover normal stealth.I'll comment on that but I think stealth is less problematic, in general. See below
Given that the book says you can break a grapple with "an attack, a spell, even a threatening look" I think the easy adjudication is the 'RAW' one.
I do like that idea. But I don't think it solves the problem on its own. If every time you attack while veiled you get to roll Stealth for an ambush attempt, veils are the deadliest weapons around.AMBUSH
With the Stealth skill, you can set up an ambush
by rolling to hide as per the Hiding trapping,
below. Given time to prepare, you might even
create aspects on the scene to set up the ambush.
When you decide to strike, the victim gets one
last Alertness roll to see if he notices something
at the last moment. You have the option
of keeping your hiding roll or rerolling your
Stealth in response to this last Alertness roll.
So do you think people should know where their hidden opponents are?I like the idea of people taking a shot in the dark and getting a lucky hit. But, what I was trying to say before was, if you're taking a lucky shot, it's because - for whatever reason - you know someone is hidden. Mechanically, it's no longer a block on perception (because they're not trying to find you), it's a block on attacks (because they're trying to attack you).
Also, how would that work with non-veil Stealth?Regarding Stealth:
That would be really weird flavourwise. You're invisible...but when violence happens, your invisibility suddenly disappears or starts fluctuating in strength wildly as the veil-er rolls high or low.I don't think it is weird. It's a hell of a lot harder to maintain someone's cloak if they've given themselves away. Combat is chaotic and the people you're cloaking are doing lots of random actions that are bringing attention to themselves and you have to constantly re-adjust in reaction for what they're doing. Your invisibility is going to be more tenuous. In any case, it averages out to your skill. I mean, you could argue against that...but invisibility doesn't exist, so we can't really say 'this is how it works', we can only say, 'this is how it should work'.
Why should people shooting near you reduce the duration of your veil?
So do you tell people where their hidden opponents are?In an ideal situation - if you come up with a solid way of doing this, I'd like to see the following situation:
Moving is a penalty to Stealth (unless you have Speed powers). Veils are "magical Stealth rolls" so same for them, IMO.
Skulking
Skulking is the art of moving while trying to
remain unnoticed. It uses many of the same
rules as Hiding, above, but it adds in difficulty
factors based on how fast you are moving and
the terrain. A slow crawl isn’t much harder, but
running is tough. Bare concrete isn’t much of an
issue, but a scattering of dried leaves and twigs
So do you tell people where their hidden opponents are?It's usually the players that are stealthed once the fight actually starts (usually by way of said pixie hopping on someone's shoulder and glamouring them up). I don't actually ambush them all that often -- but when I do, it's just for the first round, then nobody's bothering to hide.
Then why would that limitation be in both power descriptions? I don't think it's supposed to work that way.
As for the original question: I don't really think you can be both hidden and actively involved in a fight. Once you attack or maneuver (well, except purely "self-targeted" maneuvers, IMO) you're revealed.
Moving is a penalty to Stealth (unless you have Speed powers). Veils are "magical Stealth rolls" so same for them, IMO.
I kind of take this whole thing as implying that it starts out a fight. No-one knows there are opponents yet so their guard is down. Once you know there is someone present, you can't really ambush.
I like the idea of people taking a shot in the dark and getting a lucky hit. But, what I was trying to say before was, if you're taking a lucky shot, it's because - for whatever reason - you know someone is hidden. Mechanically, it's no longer a block on perception (because they're not trying to find you), it's a block on attacks (because they're trying to attack you).
If they want to FIND you, they should need to succeed on some kind of perception, I think.
Regarding Stealth:
Any skill, if it has narrative justification can block attacks. A weapons block could block other weapons, but probably not missile weapons since you can't normally parry missile with melee.
I don't think it is weird. It's a hell of a lot harder to maintain someone's cloak if they've given themselves away.
And it doesn't reduce the duration of a cloak - it's just changing the story of the cloak. Out of combat, you don't keep time in exchanges - it just lasts until you run into something that has a chance to reveal your position. It either helps you past that challenge or it doesn't. Will it see you through the scene? It's the same way that a social block could last 10 minutes while a combat block only lasts 6 seconds. It's because the conflict is moving at a different speed.
Look at it this way: If a veil lasts one scene. In one scene, you might just be trying to get through a room. Maybe it lasts 1 minute. In another scene, you might be trying navigate underground tunnels - that could take you 15minutes.
Why does the veil only last 1 minute in one situation and 15 minutes in another? It's because FATE doesn't really keep clear track of time. It's the conflict that dictates the time. Like the same reason why a social block might be 15 minutes while a combat block is only 6 seconds.
In combat, blocks only last one exchange, so why shouldn't a veil?
In an ideal situation - if you come up with a solid way of doing this, I'd like to see the following situation:
GM: someone shoots at you
PLAYER: I want to shoot back, where are they
GM: Make an alertness
PLAYER: I fail
GM: you don't know where they are.
Player: (option 1) I spend the turn looking for them
(option 2) I shoot blindly
GM: (option 2) What zone do you target?
Player: zone 3.
GM: you miss.
- so did the player miss because the cloak was too strong or did he miss because he chose the wrong zone? I think that this is important. It also makes speed powers very useful. An attacker with Mythic speed can melee, then move 3 zones for free. The chances of knowing what zone they're in are very low.
I try to keep this as simple as possible. A veil can cover sight, smell, sound, etc--all of those are simply factored into the total strength of the veil. An Epic veil would cover those all better than a Fair veil. If you want to say "You suck at veils, and can't cover scent," and then the werewolf you're hiding from smells you? Compels. Glamours vs Magic is a narrative question of origin and mechanical difference of establishing the veil, not affecting mechanical use after the fact other than spell duration.
A "pierced" veil doesn't necessarily drop the veil, per RAW, but means someone knows something isn't right in that spot. A smudgy spot in the air, a flutter of motion, a hunt of the veiled person's shampoo. Etc. Means the veil isn't effective anymore against that person, and they could point it out to others. But means if you can get "out of sight" again, you might trick them again and force a reroll.
If out of a conflict, then it's a simple Alertness/Investigation roll vs the Veil. If that fails, the veiled person goes about their business, and it also sets the person up for a possible Stealth Ambush (they get a second chance Alertness roll beforehand).
If you attack from a veil w/o Ambush, that means they know where you are. Unless you get a chance to get out of sight and spend an action going stealthy again, then the veil is effectively gone whether you're still magically invisible or not.
If you attack from a veil w/ Ambush, that means they don't know where you are, necessarily. However, they know someone is there somewhere. Veil converts to a simple combat Block.
Veil yourself in a conflict? Everyone just saw you vanish. You can make that a Block or a Maneuver. Take an action to get hidden (maneuver and tag for effect) to go back into Stealth-mode.
How does Speed play a role? You can hit someone and zip away out of "sight" w/ free supplemental zone movements to retain the Stealth-mode.
So you'd just flatly disallow in-combat ambushes, no matter how well hidden the attacker is?Once they know there's an attacker. I'd allow a mid-combat ambush if that attacker has yet to do an action that reveals he's there.
Suppose you shot me, so I wanna punch you. You have a 4-shift veil and you might be in my zone, in the next zone, or two zones away. My Alertness/Investigation is 0 but my Fists is 5, so I have a good chance of hitting you but next to no chance of finding you with Alertness/Investigation.If you're using fists:
Do I have to decide which zone I'm attacking before rolling? Do I roll Fists, and if I succeed I find you and then we see whether you're in my zone? And if you're one zone away, can I retroactively include a supplemental move? What if that takes my roll below your veil?
So you'd recommend handling it as a regular block?
I don't think that works very well with hiding, which logically shouldn't end after a turn if not maintained. Hiding and sniping is a time-honoured and effective strategy, after all.It should if you jump out of the bushes and punch someone. Sitting under cover with a rifle is different. I think zones should matter...and maybe ranged attacks
"Maintaining someone's cloak" isn't really a thing, though. Once you've cast your veil, the veil is there. You no longer have to do anything to maintain it, and you don't have any control over how it's used.It is in combat. if I cast a veil with a spell in the middle of combat, it only lasts 1 exchange. Does it say they last a whole combat somewhere?
How are you getting a scene-long veil? I'm not aware of any effect that does that.It's in the parenthesis on the page where it talks about veils...maybe the spirit magic section?
Regardless, the problem is that the veil already has a different set duration. It's okay if a social block lasts longer than a combat one, because the social block and the combat block are completely different things within the story. But the veil is the same veil regardless. And I don't see any logical reason for it to be affected by combat occurring nearby. It's not like violence emits magic-destroying radiation.Well, it does if you're making yourself an obvious target....it SHOULD be hard to maintain stealth in any fashion.
Pretty sure this is too strong. It makes veils an insurmountable advantage over low-perception-skill people, and there are a lot of supposedly dangerous people with unimpressive perception skills.Yeah...but this is exactly how snipers work and, as you say, it's a time-honoured tradition.
If we could find that, we could increase the difficulty to include attacking. Then speed powers could alleviate this. Example:
(these numbers are rough...you'd want to come up with something better)
Cloak of invisibility: Power 5 veil
Sprinting: - 2 to stealth
Noisy Aspect or block on Stealth: (crunchy leaves) -2
Noisy actions: running into a flank; shouting/talking etc... -4
Attacking: -6
***EDIT: for every zone away from victim: +1 (up to the maximum shifts of the veil)
So, if you have a power 5 veil and you attack, you automatically get spotted (unless someone rolls a terrible alertness). If you have mythic speed, you stay hidden.
You could tag aspects to boost that. 'soft carpets' would decrease the penalty by 2, for instance.
Thinking about it, I kind of like this. No extra rolling and incurring penalties is already a part of the game (it just doesn't often get used often)
Pretty sure this is too strong. It makes veils an insurmountable advantage over low-perception-skill people, and there are a lot of supposedly dangerous people with unimpressive perception skills.A lot of those dangerous people have access to other means of tracking than pure sight -- as Harry says, anyone with The Sight can pierce any veil, making them largely useless against wizards.
I think either could work, but I like Alertness better since it's the "combat awareness" skill. Investigation tends to be slower.
So you'd just flatly disallow in-combat ambushes, no matter how well hidden the attacker is?
Suppose you shot me, so I wanna punch you. You have a 4-shift veil and you might be in my zone, in the next zone, or two zones away. My Alertness/Investigation is 0 but my Fists is 5, so I have a good chance of hitting you but next to no chance of finding you with Alertness/Investigation.
Do I have to decide which zone I'm attacking before rolling? Do I roll Fists, and if I succeed I find you and then we see whether you're in my zone? And if you're one zone away, can I retroactively include a supplemental move? What if that takes my roll below your veil?
And how does this interact with zone attacks?
I don't think that works very well with hiding, which logically shouldn't end after a turn if not maintained. Hiding and sniping is a time-honoured and effective strategy, after all.
"Maintaining someone's cloak" isn't really a thing, though. Once you've cast your veil, the veil is there. You no longer have to do anything to maintain it, and you don't have any control over how it's used.
A sniper in a good hiding spot can take quite a few shots without revealing their position.
So you'd just flatly disallow in-combat ambushes, no matter how well hidden the attacker is?
But the veil is the same veil regardless. And I don't see any logical reason for it to be affected by combat occurring nearby. It's not like violence emits magic-destroying radiation.
I think this is workable. I'm going to write up an example and post it to see what you think...
Before I put up my main idea, I have a question:
Should actions such as sprinting, moving, attacking etc.. create a penalty to cloaking or should it give a bonus to perception.
Once they know there's an attacker. I'd allow a mid-combat ambush if that attacker has yet to do an action that reveals he's there.
I hold the belief, that you can't ambush someone if they know you're around. Ambush implies unpreparedness and surprise. You could try a hidden strike, but all kinds of things could reveal you before it lands if your opponent is on guard. That would make it harder to dodge a hidden strike, but not impossible. This could be reflected in a restriction of the dodge skill by a perception skill.
If you're using fists:
1. pick the zone you're attacking, so you might need to move suplementally to get there.
If you choose the wrong zone, you just miss
2. Attack.
If they are in that zone, you have to overcome the veil.
If they hit, they do damage and the target is revealed.
It is in combat. if I cast a veil with a spell in the middle of combat, it only lasts 1 exchange. Does it say they last a whole combat somewhere?
...
It's in the parenthesis on the page where it talks about veils...maybe the spirit magic section?
Well, it does if you're making yourself an obvious target....it SHOULD be hard to maintain stealth in any fashion.
I think this is workable. I'm going to write up an example and post it to see what you think...
Should actions such as sprinting, moving, attacking etc.. create a penalty to cloaking or should it give a bonus to perception.
With more thought I would probably have perception skills restricting attacks against a "hidden" opponent and not modifying or complimenting them. I agree with Taran that having a high perception skill should not make it easier to hit a hidden opponent than it is to hit someone who is clearly visible. However, having low perception should make it harder.
Regarding hiding and mundane skills.
Disappearing mid-combat by non-magical means is a tricky proposition and should probably require ample justification or a stunt. The same for staying hidden after attacking someone from hiding.
-I can't stay hidden after a melee attack without some very strong justification.
-If I'm a zone or three away, I may need to take a supplemental to duck behind something, but the zone I'm in will be known. My Stealth roll would be the defense against the attack. Regardless of speed powers I don't think I can hide while changing zones without tagging/invoking an appropriate aspect whether I use a supplemental action to do it or not.
-If I'm sniper rifle far away, they would know which direction I attacked from, but maybe not which zone I'm in. At this point an Investigation roll would be required to suss out my location. Speed powers here could make finding me extremely difficult. This difficulty might be set by my Stealth skill, plus 1 for the number of zones I could be in, and 1 for each level of speed powers I have. Once my location is known, I would need justification to become hidden again and probably a Stealth roll. You would roll Investigation, subtract that from the total difficulty, and then it would take teh remainder in exchanges to find my location. For each attack I make, while you are trying to locate me, one, maybe two, exchange(s) would be removed from the remaining time to find me.
A lot of those dangerous people have access to other means of tracking than pure sight -- as Harry says, anyone with The Sight can pierce any veil, making them largely useless against wizards.
But yeah, being invisible is a huge advantage in a fight. That only makes sense.
Yeah, but that's not "default", IMO. If the situation allows (you have cover and are a reasonable distance away), you could do that with an invoke for effect.
Sure, but that's not necessarily FATE logic. The mechanics are modeling the narrative at least as much as the actual nuts-and-bolts of the magic.
I don't think any new rules are needed.
This is already how this works, IMO. It's not well explained in the book but the marginal notes on the Speed powers talk about it a bit. Every condition that would make it harder to be stealthy is worth -2 (the example is moving fast [-2] over noisy leaves [-2]).
EDIT:
Penalty to the Stealth roll (or veil strength), IMO. If you already have a veil up I'd say it just "counts" as 2 weaker that exchange.
I don't think any new rules are needed.
What if they know there's an attacker, but they don't know about you specifically?
Like in the scene that started this: they knew they were in a fight, but not that the PCs were hiding invisibly and that their apparent selves were illusionary.
(click to show/hide)
I think it's too standard a situation to leave to invokes.
New rules are definitely needed. I'm pretty experienced with this system, and I actually don't know what happens when someone casts a veil in a fight.
You might allow a simultaneous ambush giving more than one person the ambush against a single target, but I'd consider modifying each person's Stealth roll with Presence somehow. I'm not sure of the best way to do it, but coordinating an ambush between characters should be tricky.
If
the victim succeeds(alertness), he can defend normally (but
not take a normal action in the first exchange).
If the victim’s roll fails, he can only defend at an
effective skill level of Mediocre.
I think that's too complicated. I think the basic -2 per condition making it harder is OK (and I'd say melee attacks, and most ranged attacks, make stealth completely impossible).I feel it's a bit complicated too, but it's a good exercise. As far as melee attacks and stealth being impossible, I'm sure that the Skinwalker did exactly that against Harry.
But what if I use a melee attack on a hidden opponent who isn't in the same zone with me? Naturally, your attack won't succeed, but not all will be lost. First you learned that your opponent wasn't in the same zone as you. Second, you gain the option to take that attack and turn it into a maneuver placing an aspect upon yourself related to seeking or searching for use on your next turn.I like this. And that's because I like guessing zones for veils. You should add that the 'wild attack' should be enough shifts (at least 3, usually) to create a maneuver.
I don't like this, personally. It means only one person can attack and only one person can ambush. It specifically says you can create aspects to make an ambush better and, imo, co-ordinating between characters is exactly what an ambush is.
So, taking this from YS. By your reading, There can only be one victim and one ambushee. What happens if everyone fails their alertness? It says that they may not take a normal action and they defend at mediocre. Does each attacker have to target a different opponent? Or does the first shot ruin everyone else's chances?
I read it that the full first exchange is an ambush. Everyone who fails, defends at mediocre and even the people that succeed don't get to act. (And I didn't realize the people who succeeded weren't able to act until I re-read it just now)
Otherwise, it would only ever be the person with the highest initiative who could do any ambushing.
I don't really interpret initiative as 'first john goes, then Judy, then Alex.' I think combat is a bit more chaotic than that. Lots is going on in an exchange. So just because John shoots first in the initiative, it doesn't mean that everyone will instantly realize what's happening and ruin things for Judy and Alex. It takes a second or two to get your bearings, and by then, half your party could be dead.
I think everyone who fails to notice the ambush will roll at mediocre for the Whole first exchange(not just the first attack). After that, though, Ambushing is way harder.
I like this. And that's because I like guessing zones for veils. You should add that the 'wild attack' should be enough shifts (at least 3, usually) to create a maneuver.
@ Theogony_IX:
- Regarding Long distance: It sounds complicated
- How does speed powers play a role? or should it? Obviously, moving zones makes it trickier for them to locate your zone.
I have another thought. There's been lots of ideas thrown out on this thread already...I hope someone is keeping track...
Why? It seems pretty straightforward to me; it's just a maneuver and tag for effect.
As far as melee attacks and stealth being impossible, I'm sure that the Skinwalker did exactly that against Harry.
As far as melee attacks and stealth being impossible, I'm sure that the Skinwalker did exactly that against Harry.
Not really. I just re-read the Skinwalker vs Alphas/Harry fight early in TC, and even though the Skinwalker was veiled, Harry can tell where it is... not its shape, but he can track its movements.,That still isnt impossible, it's just not perfect. Also iirc it made a lot of use of it in the attack on Chateau Wraith as well.
Not really. I just re-read the Skinwalker vs Alphas/Harry fight early in TC, and even though the Skinwalker was veiled, Harry can tell where it is... not its shape, but he can track its movements.,