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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Theogony_IX on September 03, 2014, 10:57:21 PM
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Hey, looking for a little feedback on this stunt I negotiated with one of my players:
Hobbleshot (Guns) - Use this stunt to perform an maneuver and place the aspect "Hobbled" on the target. If successful, you must pass the tag to another player, and the target of the maneuver suffers a -2 to their next action in the round of exchanges.
Should that be a -1 to the target's next action, or is the -2 okay?
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Penalties are weird in DFRPG. They almost never happen.
- The maneuver can be done without a stunt and you don't even have to pass the tag to someone else.
- bad things can be done with 'invoke for effects'. Without the use of a stunt.
So you could say, I use guns to put the aspect "hobbled" on the guy. I then invoke for effect. I want to say that because he's 'hobbled' and can't move very well, he has to use up a supplemental every exchange until he removes the aspect. (doing a supplemental would give him a -1 penalty to his main action).
So, all this you can do without a stunt.
What the stunt does, in effect, is let you 'invoke for effect' and still keep the free tag (which you have to pass to an ally.)
Maybe it would be easier to say that stunt gives you 2 free tags on the maneuver 'hobbled'?
That's a +2 effect in a specific situation.
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Maybe it would be easier to say that stunt gives you 2 free tags on the maneuver 'hobbled'?
That's a +2 effect in a specific situation.
I think that's how I would do it as well. Maybe with the additional caveat that the additional free tag has to be given to another player, and you almost exactly where you want to be.
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I like that idea. I think making it a straight numeric penalty really gimps the player's ability to tell a story with the stunt.
Hobbleshot (Guns) - Perform a maneuver placing two aspects on an opponent. Pass the tag for one to an ally. Tag or invoke the other only for an effect.
I'm leery of letting the tag for the second apply a +2 bonus to another Hobbleshot maneuver roll tempting a chain, so I worded it to only allow effects rather than roll bonuses.
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I wouldn't let both tags apply to the same roll. You can only use one aspect per roll anyways.
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I think the way I worded it shouldn't allow both tags to be used on the same roll. Being able to tag one only for an effect and having to pass the other to an ally should break them up.
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I wouldn't let both tags apply to the same roll. You can only use one aspect per roll anyways.
You can invoke as many aspects you want (and can afford) on one roll, but you can only use an aspect once for every roll.
I'd treat it as one aspect with two tags - one has to be passed on. The target can only have one Hobbleshot-caused aspect at a time.*
*This should prevent chaining, and feels more natural to me.
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I think the way I worded it shouldn't allow both tags to be used on the same roll. Being able to tag one only for an effect and having to pass the other to an ally should break them up.
My point is that, even though you have 2 tags on it, it's still the same aspect and you can't use the same aspect twice for a single roll - no matter how many tags you have or how many Fate Points you spend on it.
So, even if you left it as-is and let the same person have both tags, they would have to split those tags between two separate rolls.
If you want to force them to pass the tag, that's fine. I'm just saying that I don't think it's necessary.
You can invoke as many aspects you want (and can afford) on one roll, but you can only use an aspect once for every roll.
Ninja'd
I didn't mean to say that you could only use 1 aspect per roll(even though that's what I wrote). I meant to say that you can't use the same aspect twice for any given roll. (as I explained above)
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I'm happy with forcing a tag to be passed as part of the stunt. He wants the character to be a support build, so it was something he asked for when we negotiated the stunt. I can definitely make it one aspect though.
Hobbleshot (Guns) - When shooting to wound or disable, the aspect you place on the target may be tagged twice. You must pass one of these tags to an ally, and you may only use the second for an effect reflecting the hobbling nature of the maneuver. A target may only have one aspect placed in this manner at a time.
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I wouldn't limit the second tag to effect only. It's not like you can use the stunt more than once on any given target, he won't hobble much more with two bullets in the foot than with one.
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The thing I want to avoid by making it effect only is
Maneuver, pass tag
Use my tag for +2 to place another maneuver to pass the tag,
Use my tag for +2 to place another maneuver to pass the tag,
etc
etc
etc
And have him do nothing but churn out free tags because that's boring.
Should I not be concerned about that sort of thing?
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Well, you can only hobble someone once. So multiple 'hobbled' aspects won't really stack. So each enemy can only have 1 hobbled aspect and the spare free tag can only be tagged once.
He couldn't really use the +2 to hobble someone else. That doesn't really make sense.
If there's 5 enemies, he could hobble each of them and give all the tags to one person or spread the tags out to different people. But once again - 1 tag/enemy.
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Hmm, maybe I'm not fully understanding aspects placed by maneuvers. If it's a fragile aspect, once it's tagged isn't it removed? Wouldn't that allows another of the same aspect to be placed on the target?
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Yeah. but once it's tagged or invoked, it goes away. Or it might even go away before it's tagged. And the player can't control if the aspect is fragile or sticky. It all depends on the attack role and the defense roll. It's only fragile if the defense is equal to the attack. If the attack gets +1 shift, it's sticky.
And, if you tag it once and it goes away...there's no aspect left to tag. Meaning the second tag no longer works. You can't tag an aspect that's not there.
To be clear, maybe you should write, If he places a 'sticky' aspect on the character, he may get 2 free tags.
Edit: Also, if the enemy 'removes' the aspect, before the players ally uses the tag, if the player puts another 'hobbled' aspect on the enemy, the players ally does not have 2 tags - even though he never used the first tag. The first tag disappeared when the enemy removed the aspect.
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*Nods*, okay cool. That gives me a good idea of how to adjudicate this stunt.
Hobbleshot (Guns) - When shooting to wound or disable, any sticky aspect you place on the target may be tagged twice as long as you pass at least one of the tags to an ally.
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Hmm, maybe I'm not fully understanding aspects placed by maneuvers. If it's a fragile aspect, once it's tagged isn't it removed? Wouldn't that allows another of the same aspect to be placed on the target?
An aspect isn't fragile by itself, it only becomes fragile if you tie on the maneuver roll.
The fragile part should be represented in how the aspect is phrased. So if you aim for a "shot in the foot" aspect but you tie, you should change the aspect to something like "a jump to the left" or "bullet dance", to represent that it doesn't last too long. Those aspects last only a very short time, and should be used right away, or they go away. But once you are shot in the foot, you are shot in the foot, that's going to stay around, so making an aspect like that fragile seems off. Since it isn't a consequence, it won't exactly stay along after the conflict is over, maybe you just grazed him, and it was worse in the moment than it actually is. The fragile aspects above, however, can easily be justified to go away pretty quickly.
Then there's kind of a diminishing return on shooting someone in the foot, I think. It's going to hurt like hell when you do it the first time, maybe the second time, but after that, it kind of becomes silly.
Maybe something along the lines of "distracting shot" would make more sense. It would still be the same for the most part, but it doesn't involve actually hitting and hurting someone, since that's more the area of consequences.
Coming at it from another angle:
I've used a sort of bonus tags thing in the past, when a player had a spectacularly good roll. I would let him choose to take an additional tag for himself, or he could get 2 additional tags, but he would have to give both of them to other players. Since you want to go for a supporting roll anyway, maybe that's an option.
Distracting Shot (Guns): When providing covering fire or drawing someones attention, you may give up your free tag on the aspect and in return give 2 free tags to other players.
You wouldn't be able to use it yourself, you would maintain your supporting role, it doesn't mess with wounds/consequences. All in all, it may be a more elegant way to go.
Bonus points if another character who is regularly working with you takes a stunt that allows him +3 instead of +2 when invoking these aspects from you. That's going to make for a killer combo.
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That's a really elegant way of solving it! Strongly support-oriented, with a minimum of special rules.
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Yeah, I like that too. I'll take them both to my player and see which he prefers. Thanks for the help.