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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: potestas on June 11, 2014, 10:44:54 PM
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if you have read any of my posts you will know I am not entirely happy with the fate rules, especially as it applys to wizards. in most games a moderatly powered wizard can use a lot more magic then a dresden wizard. Most of you will agree. I say most of you because even if you think you don't agree I have seen a lot of your home brewed powers and many of them enhance spell casting in some way. This implies that we are not entirely satisfied with the casting rules. The stress rules severly limit casting. I know this from reading a lot of posts. A lot of us simply allow the caster to "rest" before continuing. Since the rules are vague on what rest is many of us interpret them loosley.
A simply solution i am going to implement is to allow a wizard or caster to be able to cast any spell whose power does not exceed half his convictionat no cost. I am not sure if should inlcude focus items or refinements but as of right now its just conviction. This allows the wizard to cast a good deal of minor or moderate spells with little cost, to be used against mortals and lesser critters without them constantly have to "rest" to reset the stress. It will add more meaning to his spells as he has to reach deeper into his reserves to overcome greater obsticles.
I was rereading stormfront and it seemed to me when harry first overcame the frog demon he did so by tapping the power of the storm. The storm augmented his power to a far greater degree then the a simple +1 to the ladder that the rules state. He channelled the naturally occuring energy of the storm into at least a legendary effect as he put down the frog demon with one hit. If we are at all honest with ourselves the hit was probably far stronger then that. There is nothing in the rules that allows wizards to do this, at least not to the effect harry does in the book. The spell he used would seem to be a cross between evocation and thaumaturgy, he seemed to prepare it but the effects were much stronger then the time he had and what the rules would have allowed for. Does anyone have anything in mind to allow wizards to do such stunts that better mimics what harry did in the book?
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A simply solution i am going to implement is to allow a wizard or caster to be able to cast any spell whose power does not exceed half his convictionat no cost. I am not sure if should inlcude focus items or refinements but as of right now its just conviction. This allows the wizard to cast a good deal of minor or moderate spells with little cost, to be used against mortals and lesser critters without them constantly have to "rest" to reset the stress. It will add more meaning to his spells as he has to reach deeper into his reserves to overcome greater obsticles.
I'm not totally opposed to the idea, but I don't think it's a good idea to make mandatory anything that'd increase the minimum cost of the Wizard Template. It's already barely playable at Chest Deep, and with that perk it might not even be playable at Submerged.
So yeah, that should definitely be an optional upgrade Power and not part of the basic package.
Does anyone have anything in mind to allow wizards to do such stunts that better mimics what harry did in the book?
Invoke an Aspect. Or multiple Aspects.
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it doesn't have to add any cost to the wizard, its just part of the ability of wizards. Like exersize. A guy who can curl 90 lbs 10 times can certainly curl 45 pretty much all day. Hes just swinging his arms. Same with wizards. Also the more I think about it the more I am inclined to allow refinements to factor in. Example: conviction is 4 earth refinement is 2 total 6. Said wizard can use any effect of 3 or less without stress. said wizard with a discipline of 5 would still get off an earth attack of 4-12 without stress. More then enough to take down mortals and lesser criters even if it takes a shot or two. He can save his stress of blocks armor and or other stuff to affect the sceen. I like it.
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It does have to add a cost. Evocation is well worth 3 Refresh. With your addition, it would be worth more. And therefore it would have to cost more.
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Is it a "rest" per say that a wizard needs to get rid of mental stress? I thought it was based on scene end (roughly combat ending). Say you have a wizard at 5 conviction. That's a possible 6 spells in one scene (due to extra mild) and four spells per next scene. Then a third scene with a possible 6 spells (as mild consequences go away after the next scene). So three scenes 16 spells. As scenes can be 15 minutes onward a Dresden wizard wisely conserving power can throw out a good chunk of spells in day IMO. I've seen wizard players drop a 6-7 shift weapon spell plus 2 or 3 successes from discipline to hit on a ZONE. Being able to drop zone wide attacks at 10-12 shifts is pretty darn powerful and not repeatable by any other power. Maybe a smart wizard tries to maneuver the enemy into a cluster to nuke them. And carry a pistol. : P When I see players get their mental consequences from spell casting is when they start throwing out haymakers from buying shifts with stress when generating power.
Definitely should be a chunk of refresh to have an endlessly firing pew pew pew evocation spell. It could be balance breaking if said wizard can keep pew pewing with maxed out on mental consequences. Means a wizard that would never by drained dry of magic. And Harry's been drained dry many times.
If you have other wizards around or meatheads (physical powered supers) that's a lot of pain flying around.
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the point of the addition to the rules is to allow casters to cast more spells. So the rule for evocation -3 is everything the books says and includes the ability to toss around weak spells at no cost. I am using the addition to satisfy my desire to allow wizards/casters more spells at the same cost. I dont like their inability to cast spells without stress even small spells any apprentice wizard could do in time. such as a light spell.
The point of the exersize was to change the what -3 evocation does, in my game it will now allows any spell whose powe r is less then or equal to conviction + any refinement cast at no stress. so a conviction 6 wizard can now toss around 3 shifts of power with no stress. (he basically has a good attack whenever he needs it. toss in discipline and the good attack jumps nicely. basically he can save his heavy spell casting for blocks shields and manuvers etc. )He just does it. This gives caster s a way to cast weaker spells without adding stress and lets them have their full stress pool for large casts...iIE digging deeper to take out tougher enemies.
The main benefit is to make the caster more like wizards from books and games where casters are well casters not people who have to huff and puff just to make a candle ignite. I bring it up because based on all the additional rules people have created they recognize how stunted a dresden wizard is. Rather then do that admit that evocation as written is flawed in the sense you really cant create a wizard who can cast spells, just a few before hes done. Any spell no matter how weak tires the caster. Even if hes has years of practice lighting a candle he always gets tired. Thats why the analogy with exersize. if you can curl 100 lbs curling half that is nothing you can do it for a long while.
this is just an easier way to pump up spell casting without having to add a whole bunch of player made powers.
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Is it a "rest" per say that a wizard needs to get rid of mental stress? I thought it was based on scene end (roughly combat ending). Say you have a wizard at 5 conviction. That's a possible 6 spells in one scene (due to extra mild) and four spells per next scene. Then a third scene with a possible 6 spells (as mild consequences go away after the next scene). So three scenes 16 spells. As scenes can be 15 minutes onward a Dresden wizard wisely conserving power can throw out a good chunk of spells in day IMO. I've seen wizard players drop a 6-7 shift weapon spell plus 2 or 3 successes from discipline to hit on a ZONE. Being able to drop zone wide attacks at 10-12 shifts is pretty darn powerful and not repeatable by any other power. Maybe a smart wizard tries to maneuver the enemy into a cluster to nuke them. And carry a pistol. : P When I see players get their mental consequences from spell casting is when they start throwing out haymakers from buying shifts with stress when generating power.
Definitely should be a chunk of refresh to have an endlessly firing pew pew pew evocation spell. It could be balance breaking if said wizard can keep pew pewing with maxed out on mental consequences. Means a wizard that would never by drained dry of magic. And Harry's been drained dry many times.
If you have other wizards around or meatheads (physical powered supers) that's a lot of pain flying around.
the problem with the rest idea is combat is fluid, when can you actually say and then be "resting" in a fire fight. If you read the boards its pretty much up in the air. The reason ( i think) is people know the games rules, as is, make casting more then a few spells per fight impossible or at least really tough. so they "cheat" They do things in game like "i turned the corner, i am resting now before the bad guy comes around it" Your character caught his breath thats kind of what stress represents in this game and gosh you can go back to casting spells again. Its forced. Some Gamemasters are ok with it others no. But this stems from the poorly written rules that do not reflect what wizards in the dresden books can do or what wizards within urban fanasy can do. So rather then have a whole bunch of extra powers to fix this, i am suggesting a fix to the evocation ability as it is written. The cost stays the same, no reason to change it. My goal is to better reflect what urban fanasy wizards have demonstrated in the books ive read. And lest we forget, that is the reason we play a wizard in an urban fantasy game. we want to cast spells. Those are our tools and weapons, everyone else has an unlimited supply of their tools and weapons so should we.
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Over the door to the Academy in Star Fleet Battles is a sign: "Use your tractors, dammit!" You can get around the need for lots o' spells by using your other skills to make Declarations and assessments. And yea, the pistols and shotguns and enchanted items also get used.
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Also - there already is rules for no-stress evocation. Mundane Effects (such as specifically calling light) usually costs no stress.
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Hang on, let me get this straight. Do you actually think DFRPG spellcasters are underpowered? That they can't compete with non-spellcasting characters?
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Hang on, let me get this straight. Do you actually think DFRPG spellcasters are underpowered? That they can't compete with non-spellcasting characters?
I think he says that he doesn't like the fact that they can cast only 4 spells maximum without going into consequences. Maybe he means they are underpowered compared to spellcasters from other games?
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Hang on, let me get this straight. Do you actually think DFRPG spellcasters are underpowered? That they can't compete with non-spellcasting characters?
I think his beef is that the narrative focus of DFRPG combined with the way spells work leads to wonky behaviour on the part of players, arguing that in fact several scenes have already passed so as to justify clearing the stress, track, etc. which can slow down the game and make it break verisimilitude. If I got it right, he wants to make spellcasting overall weaker (halving the base power) but removing the stress cost, making it somewhat on par with mundane characters.
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I feel like this is a cake˛ solution.
One of the things the Dresden Verse is big on is choice, and if you have a limited resource you are paying your spells from, that's an excellent way to get that across when it comes to wizards. Either do the spell and make it count, or don't. Harry often opens with a big blast of fire, if necessary, and if that doesn't work, he either runs or he gets creative. If instead, you just spend all your available spells trying to get that one lucky hit, you don't really use them to their best potential.
If you want to extend the amount you can cast, there are already plenty of options. You can take Enchanted Items. 1 Point of Refresh can give you 8 additional spells if you put them all on 1 item to increase uses per session. Sure, they are not flexible, but spread them around and you're golden. Or take one or two points in frequency specialization, and it'll get you even more.
Or you can take breath weapon as a way to emulate your talent and/or training for combat magic. You can slug those out pretty much as much as you like, without them costing stress.
But with both those options, you still make a choice. You are spending your refresh, again a limited resource, that you could spend on other upgrades instead. If this is a way to get around having to take, for example, the "guns" skill, I feel like it is again cheating the choices the game forces you into. I think it's better to either get creative with the spells you do have, or concede to fight another day.
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Or, you can cheat.
Use thaumaturgy to set up multiple low-power spells on yourself - 4 to 6 shifts of power for an effect plus a couple of shifts for duration so it lasts longer than a scene. This gives you several interesting options;
1) Sticky Aspects like "Lucky" or "Magical Enhancement" taggable to enhance your rolls. Effectively, you use magic in advance to boost your abilites subtly when needed. Never underestimate the guy wearing two-dozen magically empowered good luck charms. :o
2) Attack or Defense effects stored in spell components. For example, a small rock (weapon 1) enchanted with the aspects "Heavy Impact", "Improbable Accuracy" and "Guided Missile". Just throw at an enemy and you get a weapon 1 Legendary (+8) attack by tagging its aspects. 8)
3) Sticky aspects like "Aura of Power", "Magical Reserves", "Mana Storage" and the like. Instead of using the aspect to boost any rolls (though you still can), you use the Evocation ability to redirect an existing spell's energy. All those magical aspects are thematically neutral existing spells so you can redirect that energy to fuel your evocation - without expending mental stress.
Of course, such preparation has its drawbacks. It takes time. It makes you shine like a beacon on arcane senses. It is easy to dispel. And your GM is guaranteed to send assassins after your ass. :P
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I'm with Belial, cheat.
I went for a one slot enchanted item, (on a lore 4 chest deep wizard) allowing him an "at will" two shift lightning attack. Pew, pew, pew. All day long.
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I don't know what your talking about Potestas. My post was not what a GM has to do. Though as a GM I don't like to have a starting fight in a game night wipe out the hierarchy of consequences at the outset unless I am setting up a mood of desperation (desperation is a common emotional tool in Dresden books) My comment about pacing was about what a player should do. A typical Dresden book has numerous scenes over a couple of days. I was pointing out when you have two to three scenes for a day (typical to a Dresden book) and your conserving energy you can still throw out a lot of spells. A smart player maybe takes a mild consequence to throw out more spells. Dresden books show Harry getting exhausted over many scenes. In fact one thing that characterizes Dresden is exhaustion after throwing out spells. What the original poster was proposing is balance breaking in my opinion. Good discipline rolls with a 2 to 3 shift weapon over and over and over with a ranged component plus 3 shift veils over and over and over again with 3 shift blocks or 1 shift armor over and over again with no stress cost is not a minor boost. And it defeats the purpose of willpower running out.
Between scenes a smart player does things to justify recovery. What if the player did an equivalent of the Reiki Hands biomancy ritual except with the mind? What about the potion in the book that refreshes the mental stress track. There are tools all over for a wizard to beef up/prepare.
Wizards are not just about throwing evocation out. The point of evocation is that its a crude blast of will that wears you out. That is the point. A smart wizard can use exchanges to make assessments, maneuvers, and use of skills to better manage the battlefield. In fact its wise battlefield management with a well placed attack that is queen of the battlefield. In my experience with a sizable party five to six exchange combat is typical. Six exchange fights are not going to tap out/exhaust a wizard unless his mental pool is getting hit. Throw in assessments and maneuvers a wizard can easily cast 4 spells and do a few maneuvers and acquit themselves well. A wizard is more that pew pew pew. Belials example I don't see as cheating (I am sure Belial was being ironic/sarcastic with cheating comment). Its smart playing. For longer battles with 10 to 15 exchanges you run into issues with other templates. Usually at that point the melee/speed/toughness/str are getting beat to crap with physical consequences mounting up.
Then there is the rest of the party. The wizards shine in the party of the game I am in because the melee guys do stuff like grapples to help wizards fire off their 1 stress spells with no chance of miss. They operate as living shields for the wizards. Dresden books have plenty of examples of companions force multiplying the damage Harry does.
I know on DFRPG resources there are excellent suggestions for powers and stunts that can give wizards more staying power: mental stoicism, mental resilience, and the endurance stunt that gives extra mild consequences for evocation.
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I was rereading stormfront and it seemed to me when harry first overcame the frog demon he did so by tapping the power of the storm. The storm augmented his power to a far greater degree then the a simple +1 to the ladder that the rules state. He channelled the naturally occuring energy of the storm into at least a legendary effect as he put down the frog demon with one hit. If we are at all honest with ourselves the hit was probably far stronger then that. There is nothing in the rules that allows wizards to do this, at least not to the effect harry does in the book. The spell he used would seem to be a cross between evocation and thaumaturgy, he seemed to prepare it but the effects were much stronger then the time he had and what the rules would have allowed for. Does anyone have anything in mind to allow wizards to do such stunts that better mimics what harry did in the book?
Let aspects pay for mental stress. Each aspect tagged is a+2 to power without it costing extra mental stress. Granted, you still have to control the Mighty Storm, but that's the risk of channeling so much power.
Regarding extra spells: Just let them refresh their stress tracks more often. That helps the non-spell casters as well.
Enchanted items make up a lot of a wizards power by adding extra spells.
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I had an idea similar to this once.
An alternate idea I had was to allow duration attack spells, but that's something entirely different.
Alternate ways is to just put more into Enchanted items. It's what Harry does.
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There already are attack spells with a duration. Look up "Orbius" in Our World.
*retreats before Sancta can turn up*
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There already are attack spells with a duration. Look up "Orbius" in Our World.
*retreats before Sancta can turn up*
Yeah, but my idea worked a little differently. I'll see if I can dig up the thread.
Found it:
So how's this for a proposal:
A caster can create a multiple-exchange attack by devoting one shift of effect to each additional exchange. For each exchange that the attack is active, the caster must roll Discipline to maintain the hold on the spell, involving fallout or backlash as normal if he fails to make the difficulty equal to the spell's Weapon rating, regardless of whether he is attacking with the spell that exchange. If the caster is attacking using the spell energy, the Discipline roll will serve as the targeting roll as well.
The caster may not cast any new spells while the first is active. If the caster attempts a separate action while the spell is active, either the Discipline roll or the main action roll must be made at a penalty of -1, similarly to the supplemental action rules. The caster may convert the spell energy into a Block or Maneuver, but any change to the spell's parameters--including converting it into a zone attack or a spray attack--forfeits the spell's remaining longevity.
Example: It is just not Harry's day (but when is it ever?), and some Red Court vampires have come to say hi. Harry decides that he can't make an effective spray attack with his Discipline skill given how many vampires are after him, and he doesn't want to risk frying himself with a zone attack, so he decides to try a multiple-exchange attack. He summons up a Weapon:4 fireball, and gives it three exchanges of longevity, and rolls very well, getting a solid 7 to control, putting a big flaming hole through the first vampire. After dodging a couple strikes, he throws it at a second vampire, rolling a 4 to successfully control the energy, and singes it. Harry decides it might be a good idea to get out of dodge, and decides to devote his next turn to doing so--he decides it's more important to get out of the zone, which has a border that will stop at least some of the vampires, so he decides to make his Athletics roll at normal, and roll his Discipline from the penalty. As a result, he makes it over the border, but only rolls a 2 on Discipline, and takes two shifts of backlash to maintain his hold on the spell. The barrier stops the vampires, though, so on his next turn, Harry decides to let'em have it: He converts the spell into a Weapon:2 zone attack, and manages an Epic roll, cooking nearly all the vampires he'd left behind.
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An interesting concept, and easily narrated as several unique spells while it's mechanically a single one.
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There already are attack spells with a duration. Look up "Orbius" in Our World.
*retreats before Sancta can turn up*
imma fite u
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What if Refinement was used to mitigate the cost of low level spells? You could have it cost Refresh and would even have to adhere to the pyramid the same way Power and Control do. Perhaps one slot of Refinement would allow a Power 1 Offensive Fire spell to be cast without stress for example. You could call it Spell Endurance.
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imma fite u
GAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
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What if Refinement was used to mitigate the cost of low level spells? You could have it cost Refresh and would even have to adhere to the pyramid the same way Power and Control do. Perhaps one slot of Refinement would allow a Power 1 Offensive Fire spell to be cast without stress for example. You could call it Spell Endurance.
Also you could limit it to Rote Spells only if that was too powerful. It would make Rotes more important which is nice.
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I wrote up some custom Rote powers that I haven't gotten a chance to playtest yet. I posted them on the board a month ago to make sure they were balanced.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,41157.msg2021770.html#msg2021770
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3) Sticky aspects like "Aura of Power", "Magical Reserves", "Mana Storage" and the like. Instead of using the aspect to boost any rolls (though you still can), you use the Evocation ability to redirect an existing spell's energy. All those magical aspects are thematically neutral existing spells so you can redirect that energy to fuel your evocation - without expending mental stress.
I don't think that should work. You can redirect evocations, but redirecting thaumaturgy to get stress-free evocations doesn't sound right.
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I don't think that should work. You can redirect evocations, but redirecting thaumaturgy to get stress-free evocations doesn't sound right.
If I understood it correctly, he meant using thaumaturgy to give aspects, then tagging them to redirect evocation. So still redirecting evocations, just without expending fate points.
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Redirecting Spell energy doesn't cost a fate point though...
The way I figure you can increase you number of effective spells per scene is either grabbing Breath Weapon/Ranged Natural Weaponry and narrate it as magical attacks; or enchanted items and again narrate it as something you do then and there rather than a stored effect. You'd probably want to refer to these items in character as "foci" and store your "signature" spells in them saving your actual evocations for your improvised stuff...
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You can redirect evocations, but redirecting thaumaturgy to get stress-free evocations doesn't sound right.
Maybe - but they don't have to be thaumaturgy either. Sticky aspects through evocation already last for the scene for 4 shifts. Just put a few more shifts into duration so they last multiple scenes and you got an evocation effect that could be later redirected, allowing you to essentially store up spells from multiple scenes for later use.
Of course, the best way is if you got Thaumaturgy at Evocation's speed/methods. You could make redirectable spells that last for several days.
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Refinement [–1]
Spell Tolerance
Specialization bonuses can also be spent on Spell Tolerance. You have to structure your Spell Tolerance bonuses for each ability on the same column with (OW pg.182) your Power and Control bonuses. Your Spell Tolerance bonus can never be greater than your Lore skill. Each point in Spell Tolerance allows you to cast a spell of a power level equal to your bonus from that element without stress.
For example: A wizard with a Lore of 2 spends two points of Refinement and takes +1 Power Fire, +1 Control Fire, +2 Tolerance Fire. He can cast any Fire spell at a power of 2 without suffering stress.
How does that sound? It requires the expenditure of Refresh to purchase it and for it to be restricted by a Lore Skill. Although maybe it should be restricted to half of Lore round up?
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A wizard with a single Refinement can get +1 Tolerance, +2 control for his element plus a +4 offensive control focus from his basic item slots. So he can go around firing Weapon 1 attacks, at +11 attack roll. He will never miss, and he'll be doing 6-stress hits against the best submerged defenses. And against Great rather than Fantastic defenses, you can expect 9-10 stress hits. And he'll have that at-will with effectively the expenditure of half a point of Refresh.
Far, far too cheap.
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The first purchase is too cheap, at least. Spell tolerance 1 is worth more than half a Refresh, but going from spell tolerance 3 to spell tolerance 5 might actually be overpriced under that model.
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The first purchase is too cheap, at least. Spell tolerance 1 is worth more than half a Refresh, but going from spell tolerance 3 to spell tolerance 5 might actually be overpriced under that model.
Yep. OK. It is too cheap. Gave it a shot.
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Seperate it from Refinement, then. Maybe a [-2] power for the first level, then [-1] for each subsequent level.
A wizard with a single Refinement can get +1 Tolerance, +2 control for his element plus a +4 offensive control focus from his basic item slots. So he can go around firing Weapon 1 attacks, at +11 attack roll. He will never miss, and he'll be doing 6-stress hits against the best submerged defenses. And against Great rather than Fantastic defenses, you can expect 9-10 stress hits. And he'll have that at-will with effectively the expenditure of half a point of Refresh.
Far, far too cheap.
A character can have Mythic Toughness against magic only with just one Refresh, which basically nullifies the build above. And in any case, DFRPG combat prioritizes quality over quantity when it comes to attacks. So if you added a hike for the first purchase alone then it'll work.
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Maybe a [-2] power for the first level, then [-1] for each subsequent level.
See breath weapon, incite emotion and variations thereof. For balance purposes, your at-will magic shouldn't cost any less than them for the same effect. And if it doesn't, why are you homebrewing instead of using existing mechanics?
Mythic Toughness against magic only with just one Refresh
When a spellcaster is putting pennies through your left eye with earth/air magic or icicles with variations of water/fire magic, your defenses against magic aren't going to help you. When a spellcaster is lobotomizing you with a pinpoint spirit attack, no amount of physical toughness is going to help.
going from spell tolerance 3 to spell tolerance 5 might actually be overpriced under that model.
Assume full caster at your EtA game level of refresh since we're talking +5 specializations;
[-3] Evocation
[-4] Soulfire
[-10] Refinement
Evo Specs: +1 control +2 tolerance for earth, +3 power +4 control +5 tolerance for spirit
Foci: +5 offensive spirit control, +5 offensive spirit power
Cost of "Tolerance" over his basic powerset: 2,5 refresh. Let's see what he can do with it;
1) Holy blasts that also degrade toughness at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will, courtesy of Soulfire.
2) Lobotomies at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will. Not quite instant mental evisceration but close.
3) Thrown objects at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will. For when you need to ignore magic immunity and don't want to lobotomize people.
3) Always-on veils of strength 5. Perma-invisibility against anyone without superb senses is fun.
4) Arbitrarily high bonuses. He makes a sticky aspect at 5 shifts with spirit magic, then uses the "extend spell" option of evocation on it so it lasts until tagged at later scenes.
5) Make any skill replacements he can justify via spirit so his minimum roll for just about anything is +5
6) Summon lesser spirits at will. Never underestimate the capability of several dozen single-refresh Little Folk to kill stuff.
7) Conjure objects at will. This one is courtesy of Soulfire.
Hey, I'd totally pay 2,5 refresh over my caster's normal costs for the above. It beats getting Breath Weapon for 2 refresh who is going to give me a Weapon 2 accuracy +6 physical ranged attack at best.
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Breath Weapon is weak. If you already have Evocation, it's extra weak. Tolerance should be better than it.
As for your example, I'm not terribly impressed. Sure, unlimited weapon 5 accuracy 15 attacks is nice. But if your opponent can survive a weapon 14 accuracy 15 attack he's probably going to shrug them off. And if he can't, the fight won't last long enough for the stress cost of spellcasting to matter.
The evothaum tricks are more impressive. Might be a good idea to limit Tolerance to evocation proper. But even there...2.5 Refresh is rather a lot. All to do things you could do already, slightly more often.
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Wizard is fighting someone with Mythic Speed, Mythic Toughness, Humongous Size, Supernatural Strength, a "Large, not Slow" stunt that reduces the to-hit penalty of Size, a "Mighty Blows" stunt that enables might to modify blunt/crushing attacks, IoP giant-sized platemail with bonuses to defense and armor and a bus-sized club. That's the basic Cloud Giant package at Defense +11, physical track of OOOOOOOOO(OOOOOO) armor 5, weapon 10 attacks at accuracy +9, excellent mobility at a 20-refresh total.
This guy actually has a good chance to beat the wizard by either running him out of power before he runs out of stress if he's defense-oriented, or tanking the wizard's first couple of blows then smashing him flat if he's offense oriented. But if you give the wizard unlimited magic, he will always lose due to the wizard's stacked aspects and perpetual undodgeable attacks.
Another example is 7-8 flying Little Folk attacking the wizard with bows and stuff, or 7-8 mortal gunmen smart enough not to be all bunched up. Without unlimited magic the wizard could still win but potentially suffer some damage/consequences. With unlimited magic, the wizard simply uses his big evocation for the strongest block he can manage, then extends it with smaller doses of power every so often so it never runs out then proceeds to killinate the little guys.
Because a 12-shift block or armor 6 indefinitely extended is counterproductive to balance.
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Wizard is fighting someone with Mythic Speed, Mythic Toughness, Humongous Size, Supernatural Strength, a "Large, not Slow" stunt that reduces the to-hit penalty of Size, a "Mighty Blows" stunt that enables might to modify blunt/crushing attacks, IoP giant-sized platemail with bonuses to defense and armor and a bus-sized club. That's the basic Cloud Giant package
If you[re talking about a D&D Cloud Giant, that's way too powerful, and they shouldn't have any Speed power likely, Inhuman at best. They do have a farily high movement speed, but Speed powers imply superhuman agility too, which giants don't have.
(They also don't need a size power above Hulking, they're like 20 feet tall. Still less massive than a T-rex which has Hulking Size.)
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Wizard is fighting someone with Mythic Speed, Mythic Toughness...
This guy actually has a good chance to beat the wizard by either running him out of power before he runs out of stress if he's defense-oriented, or tanking the wizard's first couple of blows then smashing him flat if he's offense oriented. But if you give the wizard unlimited magic, he will always lose due to the wizard's stacked aspects and perpetual undodgeable attacks.
I dunno about that. Weapon 5 attacks won't faze this guy much. I think the wizard might have better luck if they put their Refresh into a better alpha strike or some other combat-related thing.
Another example is 7-8 flying Little Folk attacking the wizard with bows and stuff, or 7-8 mortal gunmen smart enough not to be all bunched up. Without unlimited magic the wizard could still win but potentially suffer some damage/consequences. With unlimited magic, the wizard simply uses his big evocation for the strongest block he can manage, then extends it with smaller doses of power every so often so it never runs out then proceeds to killinate the little guys.
Because a 12-shift block or armor 6 indefinitely extended is counterproductive to balance.
Even without tolerance, a strong wizard can keep up a block longer than pretty much any fight is likely to last. The difference between forever and 12 exchanges won't matter often.
I mean, that's an impressive feat and tolerance is definitely strong in that situation, but I don't think it's game-breaking. And to the extent that it's problematic, the problems show up with the first purchase. Tolerance 2 is enough to shield yourself forever, after all.
So I stand by my belief that the costing problem is in the first purchase.
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If the wizard wants a strong defense spell though, they'd need two mental boxes filled (one to cast, one to extend) and would be left with even less power in a prolonged conflict. And without being able to keep defenses up from previous scenes, they could easily fall to an ambush or someone fast enough to act first and flatten them before their defense was up.
Those possibilities is something this ability would also negate. What would it cost in Refresh to still get a defense (and a big one) in an ambush, or to always have block 12 and armor 6 and veil 12 on?
@vultur:
The Cloud Giant example is Norse Jotunn. Those guys picked fights with gods and while they usually lost, they weren't pansies. Thus the ability to move like the wind, rip off vault doors with one hand and tank hits that might sink battleships. The DnD knockoff is only marginally stronger than an elephant and will die if you hit it with enough arrows. Plus, I wanted to be able to play a half-giant with human form if a 20-refresh game ever started thus this build. A full-up Cloud Giant would have also had Greater Glamours to represent nonviolent weather control and Cloudpath - a reflavored "Wings" ability to allow him to walk on air and some more powers/stunts put into magic resistance.
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When a spellcaster is putting pennies through your left eye with earth/air magic or icicles with variations of water/fire magic, your defenses against magic aren't going to help you.
RAW, the first still has to contend with Mythic Toughness/Immunity. Unless they compel you to have your Toughness/Immunity not apply, on the grounds that logically it shouldn't (which you can refuse). The second can be dealt with by Mythic Mental Toughness - so you'll lose 2 Refresh, in exchange for being very difficult for spellcasters to take you down.
When a spellcaster is lobotomizing you with a pinpoint spirit attack, no amount of physical toughness is going to help.
Assume full caster at your EtA game level of refresh since we're talking +5 specializations;
[-3] Evocation
[-4] Soulfire
[-10] Refinement
Evo Specs: +1 control +2 tolerance for earth, +3 power +4 control +5 tolerance for spirit
Foci: +5 offensive spirit control, +5 offensive spirit power
Cost of "Tolerance" over his basic powerset: 2,5 refresh. Let's see what he can do with it;
1) Holy blasts that also degrade toughness at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will, courtesy of Soulfire.
2) Lobotomies at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will. Not quite instant mental evisceration but close.
3) Thrown objects at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will. For when you need to ignore magic immunity and don't want to lobotomize people.
3) Always-on veils of strength 5. Perma-invisibility against anyone without superb senses is fun.
4) Arbitrarily high bonuses. He makes a sticky aspect at 5 shifts with spirit magic, then uses the "extend spell" option of evocation on it so it lasts until tagged at later scenes.
5) Make any skill replacements he can justify via spirit so his minimum roll for just about anything is +5
6) Summon lesser spirits at will. Never underestimate the capability of several dozen single-refresh Little Folk to kill stuff.
7) Conjure objects at will. This one is courtesy of Soulfire.
Hey, I'd totally pay 2,5 refresh over my caster's normal costs for the above. It beats getting Breath Weapon for 2 refresh who is going to give me a Weapon 2 accuracy +6 physical ranged attack at best.
As Sanctaphrax has pointed out, a few highly lethal alpha strikes are far preferable over unlimited low-power attacks, in the DFRPG system. Which is why spellcasters are so powerful - they can do the glass cannon thing better than any other template. This homebrew essentially trades off some of that damage capability in exchange for some endurance. It should be expensive, sure, but not to the extent you suggest.
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What would it cost in Refresh to still get a defense (and a big one) in an ambush, or to always have block 12 and armor 6 and veil 12 on?
Hm, I dunno. Maybe 3 Refresh, given how much effort and impracticality is involved. I mean, in order to get that working with tolerance 5 you'd need to spend 3 exchanges out of every 5 on renewing spells. You'd have to interrupt everything you do every 4 seconds or so. Would make it really hard to get stuff done.
PS: Bear in mind that you need to weaken a veil if you want to see through it.
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RAW, the first still has to contend with Mythic Toughness/Immunity.
Nope. "Immunity" and "Toughness" to magic only stops direct stress - it doesn't even stop other magical effects on you. Why would apply to a magical effect that is not cast on you at all such as the throwing of an object, which is a might effect cast on the object in order to throw it at you? The icicle thing is the same, except it splits the power into 1 shift to make the object needed, using the rest to throw. No compel you can resist there.
Besides, immunity or no there's nothing stopping the wizard from throwing you. Humanoids only weigh rank 3 mass. A rank 8 might effect would throw your magically immune self 5 zones - skywards. Enjoy your landing; falling damage in the DFRPG is 1 stress per foot fallen. If a zone is around 10 feet minimum...
EDIT:
For the cost of at-will magic, how about this;
Innate Magic [-1]
You can cast minor spells through your own innate, inexhaustible energy for one element. You can call a single shift of power and control it with your base Discipline. All the other rules of Evocation apply, except for Refinement (but see below)
[-1] Strong Innate Magic: Increase the number of shifts you can call by 1. Can be taken multiple times, to the limit of your Conviction.
[-1] Focused Innate Magic: Increase your Control bonus by 1. Can be taken multiple times, to the limit of your Discipline.
[-1] Extra Element: You get an extra Element for your Innate Magic. Focused/Strong bonuses apply to it normally. Can be taken multiple times, to the limit of your Lore.
[-1] Arcane Implement: You get 1 Refinement. It can only be used for Power foci and enchanted items. Can be taken multiple times. Rules for crafting apply to your items as normal.
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See breath weapon, incite emotion and variations thereof. For balance purposes, your at-will magic shouldn't cost any less than them for the same effect. And if it doesn't, why are you homebrewing instead of using existing mechanics?
When a spellcaster is putting pennies through your left eye with earth/air magic or icicles with variations of water/fire magic, your defenses against magic aren't going to help you. When a spellcaster is lobotomizing you with a pinpoint spirit attack, no amount of physical toughness is going to help.
Assume full caster at your EtA game level of refresh since we're talking +5 specializations;
[-3] Evocation
[-4] Soulfire
[-10] Refinement
Evo Specs: +1 control +2 tolerance for earth, +3 power +4 control +5 tolerance for spirit
Foci: +5 offensive spirit control, +5 offensive spirit power
Cost of "Tolerance" over his basic powerset: 2,5 refresh. Let's see what he can do with it;
1) Holy blasts that also degrade toughness at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will, courtesy of Soulfire.
2) Lobotomies at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will. Not quite instant mental evisceration but close.
3) Thrown objects at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will. For when you need to ignore magic immunity and don't want to lobotomize people.
3) Always-on veils of strength 5. Perma-invisibility against anyone without superb senses is fun.
4) Arbitrarily high bonuses. He makes a sticky aspect at 5 shifts with spirit magic, then uses the "extend spell" option of evocation on it so it lasts until tagged at later scenes.
5) Make any skill replacements he can justify via spirit so his minimum roll for just about anything is +5
6) Summon lesser spirits at will. Never underestimate the capability of several dozen single-refresh Little Folk to kill stuff.
7) Conjure objects at will. This one is courtesy of Soulfire.
Hey, I'd totally pay 2,5 refresh over my caster's normal costs for the above. It beats getting Breath Weapon for 2 refresh who is going to give me a Weapon 2 accuracy +6 physical ranged attack at best.
However, you can't buy that much specialisations, without being a wizard. Actually, this character can't buy specialisations at all.
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Untrue. Only the sorcerer template has such a limitation - the Refinement power itself doesn't. If you're a faerie sorceress with Evocation + Unseelie Magic for example, you could take enough Refinements to be able to kill Lords of the Outer Dark without being a wizard. Or if you're a warlock that simply never trained in Thaumaturgy because you didn't have any teachers, you can still take enough Refinements to outclass Harry Dresden in fire magic. And Scions, Changelings and Emissaries have no hard limits on what powers they can have beyond what their origin would allow flavor-wise.
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From what I've gathered, only the wizard template can get specialisations from refinement more than once. Unseelie magic doesn't give you Thaumaturgy [-3], so it's not eligible.
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Note that Victor Sells and Kravos probably had several levels of Refinement without being WC Wizards (at least Sells did). Perhaps the Sorcerer template is all a question of semantics: At this level, you're a sorcerer; higher up would qualify you to call yourself a wizard. Harry seemed to believe that without WC training you shouldn't rise above that level, but as others have pointed out, he may be an unreliable observer/narrator.
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Maybe, but gameplay-wise, to buy specialisations more than once, you have to already have evocation [-3], thaumaturgy [-3], the sight [-1]. Whether you are called WC wizard or not is just flavour.
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I don't think that's true. You just need evocation or Thaum to get specializations.
Add a new element to your Evocation familiarity
list. You also get one specialization for
that new element.
Or, gain two additional specialization
bonuses for Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy.
You have to structure your specialization
bonuses for each ability according to the same
“column” limits for skills
It doesn't say whether or not you're a Wizard. It just lists the two powers.
I thought The Sight was the big determiner of Wizardliness.
Although, I like that line of thinking...it kind of separates wizards from sorcerers.
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Page 81
Nearly every sorcerer also takes the
Sight [–1] (and would be considered “flying
blind” without it). Sorcerers with a dark past
(but hopefully on the path to reform) may need
to take a Lawbreaker stunt or two (page 182).
Sorcerers may take Refinement [–1] once per
spell-ability (once for Thaumaturgy, once for
Evocation), but may not take it multiple times
per ability—there’s only so far they can develop
without being full-on wizards. See “Building a
Practitioner” on page 77 for more information
So you can take it once for evocation and/or once for thaumturgy, if you are missing a part of the package.
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Nope. "Immunity" and "Toughness" to magic only stops direct stress - it doesn't even stop other magical effects on you. Why would apply to a magical effect that is not cast on you at all such as the throwing of an object, which is a might effect cast on the object in order to throw it at you? The icicle thing is the same, except it splits the power into 1 shift to make the object needed, using the rest to throw. No compel you can resist there.
Besides, immunity or no there's nothing stopping the wizard from throwing you. Humanoids only weigh rank 3 mass. A rank 8 might effect would throw your magically immune self 5 zones - skywards. Enjoy your landing; falling damage in the DFRPG is 1 stress per foot fallen. If a zone is around 10 feet minimum...
RAW, both those examples would count as magical attacks, even if that doesn't make sense fluff-wise. When it comes to combat, fluff and mechanics are seperate.
The second one might work, except there's at least the justification for a Aspect invocation that all magic just doesn't affect you. Which, RAW would also block workarounds like levitating the ground you're on, etc.
End of the day, DFRPG is a narrative, not a simulationist game.
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Page 81
So you can take it once for evocation and/or once for thaumturgy, if you are missing a part of the package.
You know, I never read the templates that closely as I always saw them as 'guide-lines'.
That's very interesting.
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You know, I never read the templates that closely as I always saw them as 'guide-lines'.
That's very interesting.
So do I, but I think that this point was put for balance reasons, so that characters like the one above wouldn't be used at lower refresh.
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@Blk4ce:
That's a specific limitation on sorcerers. You're a sorcerer if you got that template. If you don't have that template, then you don't have the limitation that goes with it. That doesn't mean you specifically need to be a wizard to take several refinements.
Examples from the books:
1) Russel Carson, YS p 388. Neither a sorcerer nor a wizard and he has 3 refinements.
2) Kravos' Ghost, OW p 63. Sorcerer ghost, 6 refinements.
3) Tessa, OW p 166. Denarian with only Evocation, 6 refinements.
4) Rosanna, OW p 222. Denarian with only Evocation, 3 refinements. Though she should have had Hellfire, too.
@Locnil:
Sorry, doesn't work like that. The type of the attack is always based on the flavor, not the mechanics. A spirit blast is magical force and won't affect a magic-immune demon. A magically thrown boulder is physical force and will. A sword is physical force and won't affect a physically-immune demon. A blessed sword is holy and will.
Harry Dresden has exploited this in fights in half a dozen books to hurt magically-immune foes, break circles and so on and so forth. He'd be dead a half-dozen times over if it couldn't be done.
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The Refinement limitation is part of the Sorcerer Template. If you're not a Sorcerer, you don't have to give a damn about it. And Belial's example isn't a Sorcerer.
Besides, immunity or no there's nothing stopping the wizard from throwing you. Humanoids only weigh rank 3 mass. A rank 8 might effect would throw your magically immune self 5 zones - skywards. Enjoy your landing; falling damage in the DFRPG is 1 stress per foot fallen. If a zone is around 10 feet minimum...
The falling rules are garbage and there are no rules for forced movement with evocation.
EDIT:
For the cost of at-will magic, how about this;
Innate Magic [-1]
You can cast minor spells through your own innate, inexhaustible energy for one element. You can call a single shift of power and control it with your base Discipline. All the other rules of Evocation apply, except for Refinement (but see below)
[-1] Strong Innate Magic: Increase the number of shifts you can call by 1. Can be taken multiple times, to the limit of your Conviction.
[-1] Focused Innate Magic: Increase your Control bonus by 1. Can be taken multiple times, to the limit of your Discipline.
[-1] Extra Element: You get an extra Element for your Innate Magic. Focused/Strong bonuses apply to it normally. Can be taken multiple times, to the limit of your Lore.
[-1] Arcane Implement: You get 1 Refinement. It can only be used for Power foci and enchanted items. Can be taken multiple times. Rules for crafting apply to your items as normal.
Is this intended to replace normal spellcasting completely?
Regardless, I think it shares the problem that the original implementation has: the first Refresh spent is so much more effective than the later points. 1 Refresh for unlimited weapon 1 long-range attacks with Discipline is pretty great, 1 Refresh for +1 weapon rating is significantly less good.
RAW, both those examples would count as magical attacks, even if that doesn't make sense fluff-wise.
RAW, it depends entirely on how the Catch is worded. There's no such thing as "standard" immunity to magic.
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@Locnil:
Sorry, doesn't work like that. The type of the attack is always based on the flavor, not the mechanics. A spirit blast is magical force and won't affect a magic-immune demon. A magically thrown boulder is physical force and will.
Mechanically, these are the same. They are both 'weapon x' evo attacks.
In order to get the "oomph" from 'creative narration', I'd require an invoke on an aspect or appropriate declaration For things like throwing boulders with magic in order to bypass their magic immunity. Otherwise, it's just cheesy.
I also wouldn't allow 'throwing' a magic immune creature in to a wall to bypass their immunity. Their immunity would let them get thrown in the first place.
But that's just me. Otherwise I feel it undervalues the refresh cost of that particular immunity.
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@Taran:
Yes, but whether an attack is magic or not would be part of the narrative, too. Though Lore and Alertness (and any other knowledge skill) allows for declarations without spending Fate Points or actions anyway so there isn't an issue if you do it your way.
@Sanctaphrax:
1 refresh doesn't add +1 weapon rating. It adds +1 shift of power. This will be usable in anything you do with it, like maneuvers, blocks, extra power for extending effects and so on and so forth.
As for the first refresh, it is weaker than guns and far, far weaker than the other suggested version.
2 refresh make it about on par with Breath Weapon - same damage/attack, longer-ranged but no useful maneuvers yet.
5 refresh and it becomes better than guns in damage and also provides maneuvers and blocks.
9 refresh and it allows Power 7 Control 7 evocation with unlimited uses.
18 refresh and it allows Power 12 Control 12 evocation with unlimited uses, assuming Fantastic skills.
I think it balances out fairly well at all refresh levels for what it does.
PS:
After we're done with adjusting the pricing, could you add it to the custom powers list?
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So is it intended to replace normal spellcasting or not?
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there are no rules for forced movement with evocation.
RAW, it depends entirely on how the Catch is worded. There's no such thing as "standard" immunity to magic.
I was about to bring this up as well.
Hmm, technically it would seem you are right - but it'll be fair game to read immunity to magic as not taking damage from magical attacks, and as Taran pointed out:
Mechanically, these are the same. They are both 'weapon x' evo attacks.
In order to get the "oomph" from 'creative narration', I'd require an invoke on an aspect or appropriate declaration For things like throwing boulders with magic in order to bypass their magic immunity. Otherwise, it's just cheesy.
I also wouldn't allow 'throwing' a magic immune creature in to a wall to bypass their immunity. Their immunity would let them get thrown in the first place.
But that's just me. Otherwise I feel it undervalues the refresh cost of that particular immunity.
This was more or less what I meant - if a spellcaster wanted to get around someone's magic immunity to damage them anyway, I'd rule they'd need to compel the magic-immune character for it, so as to narratively determine if workarounds work or if the immunity is too encompassing.
But I guess we're at the point where it's pretty much up to each individual GM how they want to run it anyway.
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I'd let you tag/Invoke for effect to skip someone's Immunity to magic if you could justify it well enough (i.e. a really good physical link, throwing/launching a physical object, letting physics do the work on your spells).
EDIT: maybe depending on how the immunity is worded? Mostly it's "Direct mortal magic", which is pretty limited and nearly useless if your opponent isn't a moron.
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Mechanically, these are the same. They are both 'weapon x' evo attacks.
In order to get the "oomph" from 'creative narration', I'd require an invoke on an aspect or appropriate declaration For things like throwing boulders with magic in order to bypass their magic immunity. Otherwise, it's just cheesy.
I also wouldn't allow 'throwing' a magic immune creature in to a wall to bypass their immunity. Their immunity would let them get thrown in the first place.
But that's just me. Otherwise I feel it undervalues the refresh cost of that particular immunity.
Mechanically speaking, hitting a Faerie with a bronze knife and a steel one are exactly the same. The material of the weapon is just flavor.
Mechanically speaking, hitting a Black Court Vampire with a Spirit attack and a Fire attack are exactly the same. In the context of an attack, the element of the evocation is just flavor.
The Catch is built in functionality -- it doesn't need a specific invoke to get around it. If the flavor of the attack matches the Catch, then it satisfies the Catch.
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Mechanically speaking, hitting a Faerie with a bronze knife and a steel one are exactly the same. The material of the weapon is just flavor.
Mechanically speaking, hitting a Black Court Vampire with a Spirit attack and a Fire attack are exactly the same. In the context of an attack, the element of the evocation is just flavor.
The Catch is built in functionality -- it doesn't need a specific invoke to get around it. If the flavor of the attack matches the Catch, then it satisfies the Catch.
I got as much.
That said, how would you model Lord Raith's, the Outsider's, and the Scarecrow's resistance/immunity to magic?
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That direct hits and maneuvers with magic don't touch them, but if you fling a tree at them with magic, it bypasses the immunity.
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Lord Raith's immunity would be;
[-3] Physical Immunity vs Magic (protects against physical stress/consequences)
[-3] Mental Immunity vs Magic (protects against mental stress/consequences)
[-6] Extended Immunity (your immunity also applies to non-stress effects, costs as much as the immunity affected)
Unfortunately for him, he had no resistance to magic on his Hunger stress track and having a son with Maggie LeFay gave her a permanent familial sympathetic link (mother to son, son to father). So her Death Curse bound his demon, preventing him from feeding.
That level of immunity isn't common, even among Outsiders. Even HWWB4, a full Walker, doesn't have it for example. Lord Raith had probably called upon the "Lord of Slowest Terror", an Old One, to grant it to him much as he called upon him to grant use of HWWBH as an assassin.
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Mechanically speaking, hitting a Faerie with a bronze knife and a steel one are exactly the same. The material of the weapon is just flavor.
Mechanically speaking, hitting a Black Court Vampire with a Spirit attack and a Fire attack are exactly the same. In the context of an attack, the element of the evocation is just flavor.
The Catch is built in functionality -- it doesn't need a specific invoke to get around it. If the flavor of the attack matches the Catch, then it satisfies the Catch.
I know that I wouldn't allow someone to say they had a random catch-busting sword/weapon at any given time without an appropriate declaration. So why is a wizard different?
It adds another layer of flexibility to spellcasters over everyone else that I don't like. A guy using a knife is either going to have a bronze knife he's not. If he doesn't have it on his character sheet, he's going to have to make a declaration to 'just happen to have a catch-busting weapon' so I see no reason why a wizard shouldn't have to make a similar declaration.
The other reason I like the declaration aspect is it allows me to compel.
"I declare that I have ball-bearings that I shoot at him"
Compel: Ball-bearings are weapon 4 at most. If you want weapon 9, you need to find a very, very, very big rock...or a tank to throw at him.
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"I Declare there is a ground beneath his feet, then I use Earthstomp to have the ground eat him."
There's a reason Morgan with his Earth magic got within striking distance of the Red King himself in the big fight with the Red Court (not counting the one in Chichen Itza). And by the time you can pull off 8+ shift evocations, you can always find large stuff to throw at an enemy. Cars, trucks, walls, small houses, bridges and so on and so forth.
From what we've seen in the books, Earth magic is the go-to for immunity negation, Fire is the go-to for blasting dark entities and spirits, Water is the go-to for not being affected by running water and stuff and Air and Spirit are the generalist schools.
PS:
A tank would be around weapon 12. Those things weigh 60 tons. Weapon 9 is a medium truck or a large wrecking ball.
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I know that I wouldn't allow someone to say they had a random catch-busting sword/weapon at any given time without an appropriate declaration. So why is a wizard different?
I don't see how it's random, given the ability to move stuff is part of the wizard powerset.
It adds another layer of flexibility to spellcasters over everyone else that I don't like. A guy using a knife is either going to have a bronze knife he's not. If he doesn't have it on his character sheet, he's going to have to make a declaration to 'just happen to have a catch-busting weapon' so I see no reason why a wizard shouldn't have to make a similar declaration.
There is no "just happen." You're right. A guy's either going to have a bronze knife or he's not. Just like a wizard is either going to have a type of spell that lets him shove rocks at people or he's not. You don't have to make a declaration for a power you already have.
Do you require a wizard make a declaration before his fire spell bypasses the stress track of a Black Court Vampire?
The other reason I like the declaration aspect is it allows me to compel.
You can compel whether they make a declaration or not.
"I declare that I have ball-bearings that I shoot at him"
Compel: Ball-bearings are weapon 4 at most. If you want weapon 9, you need to find a very, very, very big rock...or a tank to throw at him.
I don't really agree with this. Damage isn't just mass--it's force, too. You can bet that ball-bearings propelled with magic will be devastating. Harry outright says that the bone shards he's firing off at the Grendelkin are thrown harder than the Grendelkin's own attack of a giant rock earlier.
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So is it intended to replace normal spellcasting or not?
It doesn't have to, but it can. Spend only a couple of refresh and it's complementary to your primary casting. Spend a lot of refresh and it could replace Evocation altogether. It costs significantly more than Evocation for the same results but it doesn't need stress either.
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I don't really agree with this. Damage isn't just mass--it's force, too. You can bet that ball-bearings propelled with magic will be devastating. Harry outright says that the bone shards he's firing off at the Grendelkin are thrown harder than the Grendelkin's own attack of a giant rock earlier.
What is the highest weapon value of a gun in DFRPG? Because that's roughly what you're going to get with a small, bullet-sized item, regardless of the force, IMO. Although, I suppose meteors can do quite a bit of damage and they can be rather small.
You don't have to make a declaration for a power you already have.
You can have Supernatural strength and punch people using your fists skill and do lots of damage, just like a wizard can hit people with fire using their discipline skill. If you have Supernatural Strength and you want to throw a rock at someone, it has to be on the scene. It has nothing to do with having a power. It has everything with having the 'stuff' to throw. Yes, I paid for Supernatural Strength but it doesn't mean there's something handy for me to throw at someone.
I don't really agree with this.
I know. That's why I said it's how I do it.
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What is the highest weapon value of a gun in DFRPG? Because that's roughly what you're going to get with a small, bullet-sized item, regardless of the force, IMO. Although, I suppose meteors can do quite a bit of damage and they can be rather small.
Things mechanically propelled by gunpowder are a different story.
Put it this way: A knife is Weapon:1. A knife used by something with Mythic Strength is Weapon:7, despite still being the same small, knife-sized item. If that being with Mythic Strength throws ball bearings, are you still going to keep it at Weapon:4?
Also, it bears repeating that the Weapon rating of something doesn't necessarily correspond directly and literally to how much damage it can do. It's a representation of its general deadliness, and in this case, a Weapon:9 shot with ball-bearings might mean they're thrown not only at Mach 2, but with an incredible accuracy only possible with magic.
You can have Supernatural strength and punch people using your fists skill and do lots of damage, just like a wizard can hit people with fire using their discipline skill. If you have Supernatural Strength and you want to throw a rock at someone, it has to be on the scene. It has nothing to do with having a power. It has everything with having the 'stuff' to throw. Yes, I paid for Supernatural Strength but it doesn't mean there's something handy for me to throw at someone.
Having something specific to throw is one thing; but there can be and are settings where you don't have to declare that there's some loose object to throw because there's obviously going to be some loose object to throw. Barren plains devoid of any loose objects are pretty rare.
Besides, what I was talking about was less declaring that there's something to throw, and more about invoking that it would bypass the immunity. I was arguing that if a Wizard uses a force evocation to hurl a desk at something otherwise immune to magic, he shouldn't need to invoke further than that to get past that immunity.
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As for the first refresh, it is weaker than guns and far, far weaker than the other suggested version.
But it lets you switch your attack trapping to Discipline. That's major.
2 refresh make it about on par with Breath Weapon - same damage/attack, longer-ranged but no useful maneuvers yet.
You can also block forever, if you use this with normal spellcasting.
5 refresh and it becomes better than guns in damage and also provides maneuvers and blocks.
Eh. You can do so much better for 5 Refresh.
PS:
After we're done with adjusting the pricing, could you add it to the custom powers list?
Sure.
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That direct hits and maneuvers with magic don't touch them, but if you fling a tree at them with magic, it bypasses the immunity.
I'm not sure of that, actually. If it were that simple, Eb wouldn't have had any difficulty killing Lord Raith.
It worked in at least one case (SG spoilers) but that's described quite differently than what Lord Raith has. I think LR's might be broader.
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What is the highest weapon value of a gun in DFRPG? Because that's roughly what you're going to get with a small, bullet-sized item, regardless of the force, IMO. Although, I suppose meteors can do quite a bit of damage and they can be rather small.
At 30 kilometers/second, which is about middling for a meteor, an object has kinetic energy equal to the explosive energy of roughly 100 times its own mass in TNT.
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1) Eb had a problem with Lord Raith because Thaumaturgy needs a direct magical sympathetic link to the target. If the target can't be affected by direct magic, you are not going to tie any Thaumaturgy to him - at least not one targeting him in the physical or mental levels where his protection is. Eb could have thrown a meteor on the house Raith was in or make an earthquake swallow it and thus kill him indirectly but Raith was no fool; he would have never stayed long enough in the same location for a big ritual to hit him thus.
2) Attacking something with magic indirectly has happened several times. Against Lord Raith (keys), the Hecatean Hag's ritual (boulder), the Grendelkin (bones), the Genoskwa (ice), the Genoskwa and Asher (falling boulders). There may be other instances I'm forgetting ATM.
3) Throwing stuff with magic isn't the only indirect attack one can do. Morgan and his devoured-by-the-Earth spell is a good example. Yoshimo's animating a tree and having it tear several targets to pieces is another. Dresden's melting the stone beneath the ground and having it spring up as magma is a third. The gravity spell might work - especially if there's a ceiling above the bad guy's head. You'll notice that all of the above are basically Earth magic.
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I'm not sure of that, actually. If it were that simple, Eb wouldn't have had any difficulty killing Lord Raith.
It worked in at least one case (SG spoilers) but that's described quite differently than what Lord Raith has. I think LR's might be broader.
I'd refer you to the scene where Harry uses magic to whack Lord Raith in the face with a set of keys, but Belial beat me to it.
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Don't forget Harry's Ventas Servitas enhanced attack on the Loup Garou with his mother's silver pentacle. Anything that can act as a propellant works great for indirect attacks, so force effect spells should be perfect for the job.
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Don't forget Harry's Ventas Servitas enhanced attack on the Loup Garou with his mother's silver pentacle. Anything that can act as a propellant works great for indirect attacks, so force effect spells should be perfect for the job.
He used inherited silver. That's its Catch.
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He used inherited silver. That's its Catch.
True, but just hitting it with a pentacle isn't going to do much to a wolf-thing the size of a horse. It worked as well as it did because it satisfied the Loup Garou's Catch and had the force necessary to make it count.
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Ah, OK, I had forgotten the keys thing.
It just seems wrong to me that Eb couldn't kill him if it was that simple. Surely there was SOME time when Eb could find out where he was. And direct Thaumaturgy on LR wouldn't necessarily be required, Eb could probably use Nevernever Ways to get nearby and then show up in person and knock a building/hill/etc onto him with force evocations.
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Ah, OK, I had forgotten the keys thing.
It just seems wrong to me that Eb couldn't kill him if it was that simple. Surely there was SOME time when Eb could find out where he was. And direct Thaumaturgy on LR wouldn't necessarily be required, Eb could probably use Nevernever Ways to get nearby and then show up in person and knock a building/hill/etc onto him with force evocations.
Yeah, this is what keeps bugging me about it all.
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It's possible Eb was trying to avoid collateral damage on a Tunguska or Casaverde type scale or hadn't worked out the limitations of Lord Raith's magical defenses. Also possible that because it was a "personal reason" for wanting to take out LR, those in the know about his position might not back him up when the inevitable war started.
Based on the whole, "using magic to throw a normal object", Eb could have totally destroyed Lord Raith. There has to be something else to account for that we just don't know yet.
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Maybe it just didn't work out. History doesn't always follow the expected path.
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Possibly those other methods would've made it clear just who did it. If a White Council member assassinated the ruling head of another supernatural nation, there'd be war.
It's possible Eb was trying to avoid collateral damage on a Tunguska or Casaverde type scale or hadn't worked out the limitations of Lord Raith's magical defenses.
Probably the latter. Harry mentions more than a few times that wizards, especially older ones, have trouble thinking outside the box and assuming that magic is the be-all, end-all. Ergo, if Ebenezer threw his best curse at Lord Raith to make his head explode and it didn't work -- and, more importantly, he didn't know exactly why it didn't work -- he might well conclude that he's untouchable.
It's kind of like how a few villains think Harry's done for once they take away his foci -- and then he shoves the .357 in their face.
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Maybe it just didn't work out. History doesn't always follow the expected path.
This. Lord Raith has survived for centuries at the very least. Presumably this is because he has gotten very good at not dying. Remember that he was the leader of some of the most cunning creatures on the planet and was noted as being incredibly powerful. The Godfather's Kiss of Death is even credited as being inspired by him in the series. He's the White Court equivalent of the Merlin, with all of the power that implies.
Plus, we've only ever seen him when he had been prevented from feeding for 30 years. Given that Lara was able to survive having most of her body roasted/blasted off by a bunch of anti-personnel mines, I wouldn't put it past Lord Raith in his prime to be able to survive most indirect means of assassination. It's highly possible that Ebenezar tried and he just shrugged it off without realising that he couldn't feed any more.
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Possibly those other methods would've made it clear just who did it. If a White Council member assassinated the ruling head of another supernatural nation, there'd be war.
Which kind of raises an interesting question. There's no White Court equivalent of the Lords of Outer Night or the Black Court Elders. Now, they can be extremely powerful by controlling mortals. But back 2000 years ago before mortal technology amounted for much (they've got to be older than that since they speak Etruscan), before the Accords... what kept them around? A relatively small number of Wardens could have defeated them handily, since pre-mortal-tech, they lack any ranged attacks to compete with what wizards have. They're strong and fast and good at healing... but wizards could burn them down from a distance.
Pre-death-curse Lord Raith might have had an instant-death-touch, but he still had to touch you... which doesn't amount to much because something that strong could kill easily if it got to touching range anyway. And armor or even skin-covering robes would probably protect you from it. It doesn't really compete with the paralyzing will attacks of the Lords of Outer Night, which can be used at a distance... and there were 13 Lords of Outer Night and the Red King, and only one Lord Raith.
Lara's likely at the upper end of White Court power except for pre-death-curse Lord Raith, and while she has impressive physical abilities, they're not THAT awesome. Just knowing exactly where to put his feet (Demonreach intellectus) lets pre-WK Harry keep up with her, so I can't imagine her being much more than double human speed.
The White Court simply can't compete with high-end magic users. Against something like Eb's super death magic and force effects or Harry's massive fire attacks or pre-bodyswap Luccio's laser fire attacks...
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Well, avoiding direct confrontation is kind of their thing. So I expect they avoided direct confrontation.
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You're coming at it from the wrong direction, Vultur. The Wardens could easily wipe out the White Court now...in direct conflict. Most of the supernatural nations can, because the White Court doesn't do direct conflict very well. They thrive by latching onto those in power.
Now, who from history do we know about who had a lot of power and, incidentally, were centered in the area that once spoke Etruscan?
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Pre-death-curse Lord Raith might have had an instant-death-touch, but he still had to touch you... which doesn't amount to much because something that strong could kill easily if it got to touching range anyway. And armor or even skin-covering robes would probably protect you from it. It doesn't really compete with the paralyzing will attacks of the Lords of Outer Night, which can be used at a distance... and there were 13 Lords of Outer Night and the Red King, and only one Lord Raith.
You're forgetting the other powers he has. According to Thomas he was fast/strong to break peoples' necks with a single strike and could induce lust enough to overwhelm most womens' minds with little problem. So yeah, armour or robes could protect you from his Touch of Death, but could it stop him from ripping your head off your shoulders or shattering said armour into shrapnel?
Lara's likely at the upper end of White Court power except for pre-death-curse Lord Raith, and while she has impressive physical abilities, they're not THAT awesome. Just knowing exactly where to put his feet (Demonreach intellectus) lets pre-WK Harry keep up with her, so I can't imagine her being much more than double human speed.
She's fast, she's strong and she's very good with a gun. That is in no way what makes Lara Raith dangerous.
The White Court simply can't compete with high-end magic users. Against something like Eb's super death magic and force effects or Harry's massive fire attacks or pre-bodyswap Luccio's laser fire attacks...
Stand up fights are not the White Court's strong point. I seem to recall it being mentioned in White Night that any conflict that results in a fight is considered a conflict lost by the rest of the Court. They're the manipulators and mind benders of the setting, not the fighters. Look to the Black Court pre-Stoker for that.
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You're coming at it from the wrong direction, Vultur. The Wardens could easily wipe out the White Court now...in direct conflict. Most of the supernatural nations can, because the White Court doesn't do direct conflict very well. They thrive by latching onto those in power.
Now, who from history do we know about who had a lot of power and, incidentally, were centered in the area that once spoke Etruscan?
Well, sure, but most supernaturals know exactly what they are, and many of them are likely immune to manipulation, Sure, they can control mortals, but that was a lot less powerful in pre-tech days. Also, the Roman Empire is one thing, but for a lot of the Middle Ages things were pretty decentralized (outside of say China/Mongol Empire anyway). In the present day controlling a couple of leaders gives you access to a huge amount of power. In 600 AD not so much... especially if their power base was European/Mediterranean.
You're forgetting the other powers he has. According to Thomas he was fast/strong to break peoples' necks with a single strike and could induce lust enough to overwhelm most womens' minds with little problem. So yeah, armour or robes could protect you from his Touch of Death, but could it stop him from ripping your head off your shoulders or shattering said armour into shrapnel?
Sure. But any mook Black Court Vampire can do that. Incredible super-strength is really common in the Dresdenverse. I'm just saying that his super-special power actually isn't all that impressive, since being able to kill a regular human in one blow is pretty much de rigueur for the higher end physical-capability supernaturals. (And I'm not sure it would work on the more magical or inhuman beings.)
Stand up fights are not the White Court's strong point. I seem to recall it being mentioned in White Night that any conflict that results in a fight is considered a conflict lost by the rest of the Court. They're the manipulators and mind benders of the setting, not the fighters. Look to the Black Court pre-Stoker for that.
Yeah, all that is true. But -- before they could get access to modern weaponry -- what would protect them from someone (Black Court, Red Court, White Council...) simply kicking in the door at a big White Court meeting and wiping out most of the leadership. The uberghouls were pretty effective at that in WN, and I think a fairly small strike force of Wardens or powerful Black Court vampires could accomplish pretty much the same thing. So how have they lasted so long?
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You don't go to war just because you could win. You need compelling reason -- and in this case, the White Council needs compelling reason to kill not only the White Court, but all the mortals who are going to defend them.
The wizards are going to be hamstrung by their inability to kill the mortals with magic, which turns a Warden from someone who can level whole armies into just a guy with a sword who can be taken down by arrows as well as anyone else.
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Yeah, all that is true. But -- before they could get access to modern weaponry -- what would protect them from someone (Black Court, Red Court, White Council...) simply kicking in the door at a big White Court meeting and wiping out most of the leadership. The uberghouls were pretty effective at that in WN, and I think a fairly small strike force of Wardens or powerful Black Court vampires could accomplish pretty much the same thing. So how have they lasted so long?
Same as every other manipulative group in history. Secrecy. The White Court were never ambushed all at once because they very rarely all met in one place, and when they did it was kept secret from the rest of the world. On top of that, it's very difficult to tell whether a White Court vampire is even what it is unless they're actively using their powers. During Proven Guilty Madrigal Raith was able to hide the fact that he was a vampire almost entirely; Harry only stopped Murphy from touching him because of his instincts saying something was wrong. Madrigal Raith was pretty much the most useless WCV we've seen in the series as well.
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The wizards are going to be hamstrung by their inability to kill the mortals with magic
Uhuh.
1) Gather many wizards in Edinburg.
2) Put a couple hundred wizards into putting their reserves into a ritual for a few months. (i.e. offering consequences/declarations every so often)
3) Have the Merlin cast the 100.000 shift ritual into a generational "curse" on Humanity; a permanent ward against being fed upon by the White Court.
4) White Court starves out.
Magic has no upper limit in what it can do. With the increase in world population, there are thousands of Council-level talents out there. If the Council ever truly focused and used their full power... Of course, they are hamstrung by a largely decrepit, hidebound, largely incompetent leadership.
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You don't go to war just because you could win. You need compelling reason
Sure, but in the thousands of years they existed before they had access to mortal nukes and airplanes and things, somebody would probably have gotten in a fight with them.
It doesn't have to be the White Council -- but their options are probably the broadest, to the point that if they used them intelligently the White Court would be pretty helpless. The Black Court or the Red Court or Summer or Winter could have done it too.
It's just that the White Court seems so limited, balanced out by their ability to wield mortal power. But before that, what did they have?
There is that WoJ, though, that they could - though it's "very, very long odds" - end up defeating and controlling Mab. But I'm not sure how they would manage that. Maybe she's still human enough to be theoretically vulnerable to their emotion control?
-- and in this case, the White Council needs compelling reason to kill not only the White Court, but all the mortals who are going to defend them.
The wizards are going to be hamstrung by their inability to kill the mortals with magic, which turns a Warden from someone who can level whole armies into just a guy with a sword who can be taken down by arrows as well as anyone else.
Not necessarily. Not if you can imprison people with magic without harming them, which Elaine and Eb have both demonstrated. I would imagine that would probably be pretty standard Warden training, though maybe not for the Red Court War conscripts, given how they immobilize warlocks with magic and kill them with swords to get around the First Law.
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Uhuh.
1) Gather many wizards in Edinburg.
2) Put a couple hundred wizards into putting their reserves into a ritual for a few months. (i.e. offering consequences/declarations every so often)
3) Have the Merlin cast the 100.000 shift ritual into a generational "curse" on Humanity; a permanent ward against being fed upon by the White Court.
4) White Court starves out.
Magic has no upper limit in what it can do. With the increase in world population, there are thousands of Council-level talents out there. If the Council ever truly focused and used their full power... Of course, they are hamstrung by a largely decrepit, hidebound, largely incompetent leadership.
The first idea is frankly absurd in execution. Do you have any idea what sort of time and coordination something like that would take? We're talking weeks and weeks of it, while the Council does...nothing else? You think all of those wizards will consider the White Court that imminent of a threat that they're all going to drop everything for months just for the sake of wiping them out?
And you think there wouldn't be repercussions of that, to the tune of every other supernatural nation going, "Well, if they did that to the White Court, what's to stop them from doing the same to us? Let's wipe them out."
Again, I must ask, why would they do such a thing in the first place?
Sure, but in the thousands of years they existed before they had access to mortal nukes and airplanes and things, somebody would probably have gotten in a fight with them.
They'd still have access to mortal armies, and good old fashioned obfuscation and subterfuge. That's kind of what they do.
"The White Court did this!" "I thought it was a bunch of Romans. Where's your proof?" "Well, uh..." "Right, I'm not starting a war based on your hunch."
Not necessarily. Not if you can imprison people with magic without harming them, which Elaine and Eb have both demonstrated. I would imagine that would probably be pretty standard Warden training, though maybe not for the Red Court War conscripts, given how they immobilize warlocks with magic and kill them with swords to get around the First Law.
So, wholesale subjugation of whole groups of people at a time. I'm sure that's not going to make humans wary of wizards and turn on them.
Nothing happens in a vacuum. If the White Council throws all its efforts into wiping out another supernatural nation, the other supernatural nations are going to notice and act. And that's if they even have some provable reason to do it.
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Well, sure, but most supernaturals know exactly what they are, and many of them are likely immune to manipulation...
Nobody is immune to manipulation.
Yeah, all that is true. But -- before they could get access to modern weaponry -- what would protect them from someone (Black Court, Red Court, White Council...) simply kicking in the door at a big White Court meeting and wiping out most of the leadership. The uberghouls were pretty effective at that in WN, and I think a fairly small strike force of Wardens or powerful Black Court vampires could accomplish pretty much the same thing. So how have they lasted so long?
You're wondering why large and fractious organizations in pre-modern times didn't assemble an elite strike force to assassinate the leadership of a friendly-ish faction in an unprovoked illegal surprise attack on a meeting they probably don't know about which is taking place in a location they probably can't find, knowing that their organization is almost certainly being infiltrated and manipulated by their targets?
Uhuh.
1) Gather many wizards in Edinburg.
2) Put a couple hundred wizards into putting their reserves into a ritual for a few months. (i.e. offering consequences/declarations every so often)
3) Have the Merlin cast the 100.000 shift ritual into a generational "curse" on Humanity; a permanent ward against being fed upon by the White Court.
4) White Court starves out.
Probably wouldn't work, unfortunately. The GM would interfere. Game's no fun if you just let the players win.
The exact method of interference will vary by GM, of course. I personally would probably say there's at least one enthralled wizard who deliberately sabotages the spell, causing massive fallout/backlash. Unless the players find them and stop them, of course.
And halfway through the ritual preparation an interpersonal conflict between two wizards with severe personal disagreements turns bloody. Other wizards take sides.
Also, someone tells the white court about this in advance and they do something clever in response.
And then humanity dies out because wards don't move, and with the ward in place everyone is paralysed.
Okay, I'm kidding about that last one. But honestly, the rules foundation here is dubious.
More to the point, the game and the world are not the same.