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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Blk4ce on February 14, 2014, 06:04:54 PM
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A rookie question. You roll a practitioner. Usually you have two spots for the highest skills. Which two do you put from Conviction, Lore, Discipline. (I'm asking both for advice and your personal preference)
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Depends on the style of the practitioner.
If you're focused on Evocation, Discipline and Conviction are usually up top; generally, Discipline is more useful to have higher--it's both your control and targeting roll, and having Conviction higher leaves you wide open to take Backlash or Fallout.
If you're focused on Thaumaturdy, Discipline and Lore should be up top. Conviction can take a back seat here because it has less impact on ritual style casting.
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If you have the refresh for lots of specializations/focus items then lore can do the role of both so for higher refresh its the better focus.
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Mr. Death pretty much nailed it. If you're playing an evocation-heavy wizard (think of a Warden) then you generally want Conviction or Discipline to be maxed. However, the type of evoker dictates which skill you focus on. A Harry Dresden style evoker ("river of fire that turns the vamp and everything behind him to ash") would focus on Conviction over Discipline, using foci to pump his control rolls. A Captain Luccio style evoker ("laser/needle of fire that neatly bisects the vamp") would focus on Discipline over Conviction, and use foci to increase their base power.
If you're going for the power-optimized one, Control (Discipline) wins out over Power (Conviction) pretty much all the time, because your control roll is also your attack roll, and 10-shift evocations don't mean anything if you can't hit anyone with them.
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So, that way, it would be more powerful to use both higher Discipline AND Discipline foci.
On the downside, you relinquish the extra consequence in submerged.
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I like Lore and discipline.
Discipline because I tend to make rotes that are higher shifts of power and I take a bit of extra stress(because my conviction is lower) but they are always controlled. I can then extend those powerful spells in the next exchange if I need at almost no risk. Although, the rotes tend to be a bit more powerful because I like to put an exchange of duration into them.
Lore because I get more rotes and I can round out the wizard with enchanted items and foci. Foci to push my control a bit higher and enchanted items for emergency block and armour and skill replacement items for everything else: sprinting, social stuff...even discipline if I want an auto-control for a non-rote spell. It gives your character lots of utility.
In General:
I look at a wizard a bit differently than the "harry Dresden/Luccio" comparison. I don't divide my wizards into control/power. Instead I divide them into offense/defense. A defensive wizard will have high defensive control and a bit of boost in defensive power with lots of enchanted items and rotes that buff or protect the group, while an offensive wizard will have lots of offensive control. Enchanted items would be used almost exclusively as self-defence(probably).
The extra mild consequence is nice...but I don't have lots of experience whether it's a must-have. I don't believe so.
Edit: I should note that I've made LOTS of wizards but have only been able to play with a couple of them to really put those preferences to the test. So far, though, what I have played has been good.
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I prefer Lore and Discipline as well.
Lore is responsible for rituals, rote spells and anything having to do with enchanted items, and I like to get the most out of that.
Discipline, because if you do any offensive evocation, you are going to need to beat your opponents defense roll, and you don't do that with a low skill value.
I also don't really see a value of having conviction higher than discipline. For one, you won't be able to control all the power you could theoretically draw in, so if you use your conviction to its full potential, you are going to need to take backlash almost all the time. And again, if this is something offensive, you might have a mighty powerful spell, but it isn't going to hit, so you wasted it anyway.
But I do tend to even out the lack of conviction with specializations or focus items. Though come to think of it now, those points are probably better spend on control as well.
From a narrative perspective, I like it as well. A wizard to me is basically represented by two components, knowledge and the power to impose his will on the world. To me, that's represented by Lore and Discipline. I understand why conviction is part of the mix as well, but it isn't a priority for me.
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Well, whether having high Conviction is worth it is somewhat dependent on whether you interpret the rules to mean that taking backlash counts toward the targeting roll or not.
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I always saw backlash as a separate attack...since you can take it as physical or mental.
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I tend to simplify things, gathering it all in one.
Also, what if it's not an offensive spell, but a block or a veil?
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And now for the power gaming route. Apologies in advance, I hate doing this but if we're talking optimisation this is probably the best you can get for a straight up spellslinger.
High Conviction/Low Discipline can be workable, but not as a straight out of the box Wizard. Focused Practitioners, on the other hand, are perfectly capable of using it because they can afford a couple of other powers on top of their Channelling.
Basically, you take Channelling [-2] (Element), Blood Drinker [-1], Feeding Dependency [+1], Inhuman Toughness [-2], Supernatural Recovery [-4], the Catch [+2] (Something) and Refinement*3 [-3] (Focus Items*6).
Skills wise you go:
+5 - Conviction
+4 - Discipline, Endurance
+3 - Lore, Fists
This gives you 0000(00) Physical stress.
Focus Items go half and half into Offensive/Defensive Power, which lets you cast spells within your element at +9 power for 1 stress. It doesn't matter if you fail the control roll, since you've got plenty of stress boxes to soak up the backlash, and your recovery power lets you get rid of those pesky consequences you seem to rack up while mercilessly slaughtering things. If worst comes to worst and you look like you're going down (or are just running out of mental stress to use), just kill a mook with your bare hands and let Blood Drinker get you a free scene's worth of recovery. That stacked on top of SupRec gives you a powerhouse of a FP that can also tank a hit if he needs to.
You could even swap out a Focus Item Slot for 2 Enchanted Items Slots, which would gives you a defensive shield for those moments when you're too busy wrecking things to notice the vampire that's about to eat your face.
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Man that gives me a new perspective. What about the high discipline way?
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It is definitely the most powergamed spellcaster I've seen, but it might be hard to even get off the ground - one simple ruling shuts it down cold: I figure most GMs considers spellcasting-related stress (indeed most if not all self-inflicted stress) to be catch-satisfying. I sure as heck would. Thus no extra stress boxes for backlash (It'll still work for the rest of course) and no regenerating Backlash-caused Consequences. Of course, you can "spare" some of it for the backlash, since whatever your enemy does to you probably can be regenerated and such, so you'll still keep going longer than if you didn't have recovery!
This is based on self-inflicted stress bypassing armor IIRC, though flipping through the physical book I can't find that note...
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My character started as a focused practitioner, and later developed into a full wizard.
As she was focused on divination, I started with as high lore as I could, and then had low conviction but better discipline. She did things through thaumaturgy, and prefers to take her time doing the rituals so she doesn't risk backlash.
Now when we are at refresh 11 (I think), she has Lore: 5, Discipline: 5, Conviction: 4, and investigation: 4 (she also has the power of psychometry). Add to that a focus item (+2) for complexity on Divination, a specialization on divination (from when she was a focused practitioner), and a refinement for complexity on divination, so she will hit a target complexity of 9 for her divinations without any other preparations.
So she is the person to go to if you want to find out where something is or what happened, or what might happen. She is very squishy in a stand-up fight though. Heck her most offensive-based rote-spell is a sleep spell (causing 6 shifts of fatigue on a target). Only offensive skill: Fists (1)
/Ulfgeir
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One simple ruling blow that out of the water though - I figure most GMs considers spellcasting -related stress (indeed most if not all self-inflicted stress) to be catch-satisfying. I sure as heck would.
This is based on self-inflicted stress bypassing armor IIRC, though flipping through the physical book I can't find that note...
You can't find that note because i don't think it exists.
Then 'self-inflicted' stress should be worked into your catch. If i am immune to fire, exposing myself to an open flame shouldn't act as a catch.
Toughness and recovery doesn't affect mental stress, so those powers will never off-set the stress caused by calling up power. It only works on physical backlash.
Where you get into problems is with custum powers like Stoicism that could, potentially off set mental stress.
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Where you get into problems is with custum powers like Stoicism that could, potentially off set mental stress.
Unfortunately, stoicism doesn't work with self-inflicted stress. There is, indeed a side note that says you could make a power like toughness that works for mental stress but it doesn't work for stress from spells (calling them at least, backlash might still be fair game).
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You can't find that note because i don't think it exists.
Then 'self-inflicted' stress should be worked into your catch. If i am immune to fire, exposing myself to an open flame shouldn't act as a catch.
Toughness and recovery doesn't affect mental stress, so those powers will never off-set the stress caused by calling up power. It only works on physical backlash.
Where you get into problems is with custum powers like Stoicism that could, potentially off set mental stress.
Huh... I was almost certain that there was a margin note regarding self-inflicted stuff bypassing armor, but I guess I must have imagined it... Apologies for using a faulty argument!
My ruling still stands - Even if I add one to the value of the catch, I'd require the catch to include backlash on top of whatever else it is. I might allow recovery to quicken the healing of backlash-caused consequences, but no shrugging off mid-fight nor using any extra stress boxes from toughness - that's as far as I would allow.
It feels a lot like when I saw someone here suggest taking consequences to meet the complexity during Preparation of a ritual, and then waiting until those consequences are gone before actually performing it, allowing those consequences to be used again to absorb backlash. It goes against what I see backlash (or in the ritual case, consequences-as-preparation) being.
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Our group just recently had this discussion.
Our consensus was this:
Recovery and toughness cost lots of refresh and if you replace those with refinements, you're a lot less likely to be failing control rolls in the first place and probably throwing a lot more powerful spells. Refres-wise, it's not game breaking and only represents a few extra shifts of power here or there. And it doesn't actually let you cast more spells since that is based on mental stress. Besides, a wizard with toghness should be able to take more punishment than one who doesn't.
For rituals, we agreed that you can't use recovery for complexity because those consequences should matter.
In the end it's up to the group.
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Cadd, as I said, there does exist that sidenote you mention, it's on page 250. Note, thought, that it says about armor not recovery.
But the catch is the catch. If the catch is holy, it can't be satisfied by you casting another element like water.
EDIT: I'll post my question again, what if you don't cast an attack but a block or a veil. Which skill matters there?
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PirateJack, I know that's the powergaming example, but I really don't think that counts as a "focused practitioner." A Focused Practitioner means they do one or two things, but they do them really well--not that they have a broad base of varied and disparate powers that don't fit into any template I'm familiar with.
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Cadd, as I said, there does exist that sidenote you mention, it's on page 250. Note, thought, that it says about armor not recovery.
...
EDIT: I'll post my question again, what if you don't cast an attack but a block or a veil. Which skill matters there?
Ah! Thank you! Great to know I didn't dream that up. I knew it was about armor and not recovery, but I extrapolate from that into my own ruling/interpretation that it also goes for other ways of dealing with/avoiding harm.
As for your question. Essentially, from what I can see (not a lot of experience trying out various setups), I think that as soon as you leave attacks aside a surplus of Control is a lot less powerful. Extra control on maneuvers and blocks (veils are "just" a block) doesn't really do anything. It's of course needed for targeting when maneuvering on someone else, but that's it. So for a defensive Wizard, I think a balance between Power and Control are more important; maybe even having a higher Power and eating up a bit of Backlash rather than taking the extra casting stress of having Power lower than Control.
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Power becomes more important with maneuvers and blocks because you defend against the POWER of the spell.
Even targeting maneuvers! The enemy defends against the Power of the Maneuver NOT the control roll!
I will find the rules for this in the book...
So, if you're going to do lots of blocking and maneuvering, you should boost your power a bit. Of course, you still have to control this or risk back-lash, so I still think discipline is important.
Performing maneuvers is a little trickier than
attacking and blocking. By default, pulling off
most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of power, but if
the target has an appropriate resisting skill rated
higher than Good (+3), that skill total determines
the required number of shifts.
So technically, the person doesn't defend, the difficulty is their skill or 3, whichever is higher. I always let the enemy defend.
If they fail by no shifts, the aspect is fragile, if they fail by more than 1 the aspect is sticky. (usually)
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So, if you're going to do lots of blocking and maneuvering, you should boost your control a bit.
Don't you mean boost power?
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Uh yeah, sorry...I'll edit.
In any case, this is why I like it - obviously, this is just my preference:
I make my rotes my hardest spells to cast since they are guaranteed. I almost never take a "1 mental stress" rote.
Example
Rote Maneuver Spell:
"off balance"
1. Power: 6 Control: 6 = 6 shift maneuver
2. Power: 7 control: 5 = 5 shift maneuver (unless you want to take backlash)
3. Power: 5 control: 7 = up to 7 shift maneuver without backlash. it takes your 3 box.
This is why I like discipline more. In the last example, I could have a 7 shift block: 4 for block/armour; 2 for full zone; 1 for duration.
So I could give my whole party 2 armour for two exchanges without needing to roll control. In a couple rounds, I could spend 1 mental stress to extend it 3 rounds(power 3) and it would be a guaranteed control roll.
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And now for the power gaming route. Apologies in advance, I hate doing this but if we're talking optimisation this is probably the best you can get for a straight up spellslinger.
It really isn't.
Even if you accept the dubious rulings that it is founded upon, it's both under-optimized and illegal. Under-optimized because of various minor issues, illegal because your focus bonuses can't exceed your Lore.
Recovery and toughness cost lots of refresh...
No they don't. 1 Refresh will buy you a fair bit of durability. You can even have Mythic Toughness for 1 Refresh if you just want to use it for backlash.
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Toughness for 1 Refresh if you just want to use it for backlash.
Good point, but Mythics are supposed to be GM approved, in most cases. Would that be a +5 rebate? I mean, the rebate for "research" seems moot.
But that would be a case where you'd pump up your Power a bit over control. But it's 3 shifts of back-lash that you're protecting yourself from, so you still have to be careful. In any case 1 point of refresh will give you 2 shifts of control or power if you take refinement....so I don't really find it game-breaking.
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Good point, but Mythics are supposed to be GM approved, in most cases.
Given that character creation as a whole is typically GM-supervised, and in Fate a matter for cooperation amongst the group as a whole (including determining which degrees of power the group is comfortable dealing with), I've never really seen the need for clauses such as that one.
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Given that character creation as a whole is typically GM-supervised, and in Fate a matter for cooperation amongst the group as a whole (including determining which degrees of power the group is comfortable dealing with), I've never really seen the need for clauses such as that one.
I think it's just a flag that "this power is really strong in its area" for newer groups.
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Unfortunately, its presence implies that powers without such a clause do not require approval, which runs rather contrary to some basic principles of the system (cooperative character creation, etc).
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I think the idea is to discourage PC Mythics without forbidding them outright. If everything needs approval but one thing is called out as especially needing approval, people will hesitate to approve it.
Would that be a +5 rebate? I mean, the rebate for "research" seems moot.
Could be +4 to +6 depending on how well known it is. Which is weird because how well known it is doesn't affect how useful it is...but that's the Catch for you.
But that would be a case where you'd pump up your Power a bit over control. But it's 3 shifts of back-lash that you're protecting yourself from, so you still have to be careful. In any case 1 point of refresh will give you 2 shifts of control or power if you take refinement....so I don't really find it game-breaking.
Dunno if I'd call it game-breaking. But wizards don't need any extra power, and spending 1 Refresh to pick up 4 points of Toughness (or 6 with an IoP) is already such a good deal that I'd rather not make it better.
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I wouldn't give a rebate on research if said research wasn't going to lead to any complications...ever...but that's just me.
In any case, I think I derailed the thread...sorry.
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We're at the 12 Refresh level in our game now, having started from 8 Refresh. Speaking for Duba:
5:Conviction, Discipline (because for some reason, monsters are drawn to areas with few defenders/high value).
4:Endurance, Lore
3:Performance, Craftsmanship, Contacts
2: Alertness, Athletics, Scholarship, Weapons
1: Resources, Empathy, Presence, Deceit, Guns
Evocation, Thaumaturgy, The Sight, Two levels of Refinement (Power and Control applies to Water and Earth each), Stunt: Inexhaustible Strength, Soulfire as an IoP (-1) equals 11 Refresh. Has Chloromancy as his Thaum theme.
Not a specialist but a dangerous generalist. Two Water rotes a la Warden Carlos, an Earth attack (lightning) and another for Maneuvers ("Malgravitas!"). Three guesses what the last one does.
He's as competent and dangerous as he can be without power-gaming it.
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"Without power-gaming it" is a funny phrase. I'm never sure exactly where the line between normal play and power-gaming is meant to be.
I wouldn't give a rebate on research if said research wasn't going to lead to any complications...ever...but that's just me.
In any case, I think I derailed the thread...sorry.
Well, "only against backlash" is clearly more severe than "silver, everybody knows" so it should give a bigger rebate. You need a research rebate for that to be so. But honestly, Catch math is always a bit wonky.
And yeah, this is a derail. As an apology, here's my default take on casting skills for evokers:
Do I plan on doing much Crafting or on pushing up against my focus cap?
If so, peak Lore and Great Discipline.
If not, peak - 1 Lore and peak Discipline.
Then put Conviction in highest remaining slot.
I like to have Conviction at an odd rating for the extra stress, but I usually find Discipline more useful day-to-day. It's good for mental defence as well as spellcasting. So which skill I prioritize depends on the cap.
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I'll rephrase: for a wizard he's rather conventional and boring. ;D