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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Cadd on January 30, 2014, 02:42:40 PM
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In designing Enchanted Items for my Junior Warden, I've been thinking about skill-replacement effects. Searching the forum, I haven't managed to figure them out to my satisfaction, but I tend to not get along very well with forum search engines... Is it correct that the complexity is just "desired shift value of effect"? If I want to lift something like I have Superb (+5) Might it's a Complexity 5 ritual?
Enchanted Items can store Thaum Effects (though Strength=Complexity means it's usually the fairly small stuff). This means they can do skill replacements, right?
So what happens if I make a sword an Enchanted Item, but I don't really need it to hit harder, I really need it to hit - my actual Weapons skill... leaves something to be desired ;) My base Item Strength is Great (+4), significantly higher than my Average (+1) Weapons.
If I store an effect to replace my Weapons skill for one attack with the sword, will that mean I just treat the attack as if the attack roll had resulted in a Great (+4) attack; or do I activate the item and then roll as if my Weapons was Great?
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Activate the potion , no rolls are necessary.. if it is strong enough for the effect you want otherwise it fails.
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You are correct. The complexity equals the skill you're replacing.
For a weapons skill of Great +4, that would be the full result of your attack. So your enemy would dodge against 4.
With potions you can boost that with FP's and declarations...not sure about enchanted items, though.
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You might be better off making an item that creates a type of Spirit Sword and using Discipline to attack. Bottom line, regardless of how you justify it, I'd have to say that you're going to have to make a weapon that isn't going to be wielded in the classic sense of using the Weapons skill. As a GM m'self, you'd have a bit of trouble justifying it, given that you already have all these nifty spells and potions going for you.
Now, a potion that artificially gives you a higher Weapons skill might be what you're looking for...
dammit, ninja'd!
That said, I'd love to see the ingredients for that potion.
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I use them with my potions , my gm says fate points are spent better on story stuff, of course a raw statistical boost never hurts trying to hurt.
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A skill replacement acts like the result of a roll, not a skill itself. That means you don't roll on top of the skill replacement, you take it as it is.
Depending on how often you are going to need your sword to hit, might I suggest a different strategy, though? One point of refresh (without crafting specializations) will buy you 7 uses of the sword between milestones (or less uses with more power). If you want or need more, you could just take a stunt for the same price, that lets you wield the sword with your Performance/Craft skill, justified by saying that it is because it is a magic item. Assuming it is the character from the other thread.
Or you could do both. The stunt for general fighting purposes and one or two enchantments on the weapon that can hit pretty hard and without the risk of failure on roll.
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The wizard I'm making (a warden of the rush-teenagers-through-training generation, he's around 20) is built a little quirky. This will certainly make him "less effective", but I think that the way he's not optimized will be interesting.
So a couple of relevant details:
- He's an evocator; the only thaumaturgy that comes decently easy for him is Crafting. He does occasionally do Potions, but mostly he prefers to tinker with storing magic in items.
- He considers Foci to be a crutch, unhealthy to rely upon and only to be used for things you need to do but risk blowing up yourself or someone innocent if you try without them. This means he's not going to use foci for his main element (Air). Fire is an element he's been forced to study during Warden training, and was repeatedly reprimanded for his poor control of: thus for that he use a focus item.
- He does not however look down on enchanting items to bring extra tricks to the field; that's being prepared for emergencies. The philosophical difference is really mostly that he sees Enchanted Items as "oh crap"-buttons while Foci are used all the time.
- He's also in (intermittent) training to become a goldsmith (it's been on hold a bit for his warden training, but he's juggling it now that he's actually been given the cloak). A lot of his items are either jewelry, or "common-metal" items adorned/inlayed with precious metals.
- He's not using a staff as a focus item (see above, regarding his stance on foci), but as the newbie wardens don't get swords, he feels he needs a good "symbol of authority" in addition to the cloak - besides, people expect a wizard to have a staff.
- If he's gonna carry a staff, he might as well put it to magical use!
My first though was to store a regular evocation attack into it (like Harry's force rings) but that felt off - a bit too much like it was a focus item after all. So then I though maybe a kinetic strike from actually hitting with the staff; makes it a bit more different - but I can't really fit Weapons at a high enough rank that it makes sense, and a Weapon:4 or 5 strike is pretty meaningless if it basically never connects!
That got me thinking that maybe he could every now and then (i.e. the once or twice per session) instead hit surer with the staff, instead of harder.
I haven't quite got the narrative done yet for the kind of spell that would be "stored", I wanted to figure out if it was feasible first.
Whatever effect I choose for the staff, I don't expect to sink more than maybe 2 slots into it; he's gonna have more items than just the staff and I'm not putting any extra refresh toward enchanted items yet. He has a refinement to show his evocation prowess, and a stunt I'm reluctant to swap out; that along with the base Wizard package puts him at -9 for a Submerged game.
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If the staff is just supposed to be a symbol of authority, maybe that's exactly what it does. Smack one end on the ground along with an effort of will, and the staff starts to glow, or the earth below rumbles or sparks fly out or any number of things that, for the right crowd, can establish an air of authority. That would be a simple presence maneuver replacement spell. And I think with an enchanted item, you could even have a bit of wiggle room to choose the effect on casting rather than on creating the item, but you'll have to take that up with your GM.
Though the whole concept confuses me a bit at the moment.
What I would associate with a goldsmith is an eye for beauty and detail, the job is about finesse more than strength, a tiny amount of force aimed precisely where it has to be, in order to form the gold into a piece of jewelery. And he has a lot of different tools, because without them, he simply can not form the metal to begin with.
Translating that mind- and skill-set to an evocator would make him someone who used magic more like Luccio than Dresden, pin point laser rather than gout of flame. And he'd use lots and lots of tools to bring his magic into the desired form, namely focus items.
Don't get me wrong, your character can still work as he is, this just felt like too big a discrepancy, that I felt like pointing it out. If you've got a good explanation of why he would have no problem using tools in one aspect of his life, but totally rejects them in another part of his life, that's absolutely fine. Maybe he uses his enchanted items as tools, in a sense? A lot of his enchanted items could be maneuvers that you can tag on a subsequent evocation, which would sort of give you the tool aspect for his magic.
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Thank you for pointing out that "hole", because I hadn't really made the connection to high amount of tool use for goldsmithing to use of foci in magic. The reason he eschews foci are really two-fold, one out-of-story and one in-story.
The out-of-story reason is that the talented evocators we see don't really seem to use foci a lot. Neither Luccio nor Morgan utilizes them much in the books, and Harry says repeatedly that he uses foci for evocation because he's not good at it. My character is a lot more like Luccio's precision strikes in his natural element.
In-story, he simply never needed foci for Air evocation, wind and lightning both follow his will fairly effortlessly; it's really only Fire that is such a problem. (Mechanically, I've set his Discipline lower than might be expected, but instead he has control bonuses for Air and Spirit, this way Fire is drastically less controlled without his focus)
To him, the magic is the tool; the result is like the jewelry he makes: beautiful and what he aimed for. Using foci is a bit too much "using one tool to be able to use another tool". He also dislikes being dependent on objects to control his magic, objects that can be lost. I'll have to think it over though, because you're right - there is a discrepancy there, so it needs to be sorted out...
For the staff - you're probably right that I'm making it a bit bigger than needed; a presence or intimidation maneuver is probably right for it, solidifying it as something that make others take him seriously.
Addendum: After thinking a bit about it, I've come to the following conclusion:
In goldsmithing, he uses his tools, to shape the raw materials (precious metals) into his desired result (jewelry).
In his arcane life, he uses his tools (magic), to shape the raw materials (current reality) into his desired result (the final effect of the magic).
Hubris? Oh not at all! ;)
The fact that fire is so difficult for him, and that he has to use tools there, shines a spotlight on the flaws in his logic in disdaining foci; so far this just makes him dislike both fire magic and foci more, but as he matures a bit he might come around to re-evaluate his stance.
Does this seem a bit more consistent? It's sort of moving the out-of-game inconsistency into the psyche of the character instead, setting up future development.
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Thank you for pointing out that "hole", because I hadn't really made the connection to high amount of tool use for goldsmithing to use of foci in magic. The reason he eschews foci are really two-fold, one out-of-story and one in-story.
The out-of-story reason is that the talented evocators we see don't really seem to use foci a lot. Neither Luccio nor Morgan utilizes them much in the books, and Harry says repeatedly that he uses foci for evocation because he's not good at it. My character is a lot more like Luccio's precision strikes in his natural element.
In-story, he simply never needed foci for Air evocation, wind and lightning both follow his will fairly effortlessly; it's really only Fire that is such a problem. (Mechanically, I've set his Discipline lower than might be expected, but instead he has control bonuses for Air and Spirit, this way Fire is drastically less controlled without his focus)
To him, the magic is the tool; the result is like the jewelry he makes: beautiful and what he aimed for. Using foci is a bit too much "using one tool to be able to use another tool". He also dislikes being dependent on objects to control his magic, objects that can be lost. I'll have to think it over though, because you're right - there is a discrepancy there, so it needs to be sorted out...
For the staff - you're probably right that I'm making it a bit bigger than needed; a presence or intimidation maneuver is probably right for it, solidifying it as something that make others take him seriously.
Addendum: After thinking a bit about it, I've come to the following conclusion:
In goldsmithing, he uses his tools, to shape the raw materials (precious metals) into his desired result (jewelry).
In his arcane life, he uses his tools (magic), to shape the raw materials (current reality) into his desired result (the final effect of the magic).
Hubris? Oh not at all! ;)
The fact that fire is so difficult for him, and that he has to use tools there, shines a spotlight on the flaws in his logic in disdaining foci; so far this just makes him dislike both fire magic and foci more, but as he matures a bit he might come around to re-evaluate his stance.
Does this seem a bit more consistent? It's sort of moving the out-of-game inconsistency into the psyche of the character instead, setting up future development.
I like all of this. It's very thorough and well oiled.
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The out-of-story reason is that the talented evocators we see don't really seem to use foci a lot. Neither Luccio nor Morgan utilizes them much in the books, and Harry says repeatedly that he uses foci for evocation because he's not good at it. My character is a lot more like Luccio's precision strikes in his natural element.
Perhaps, to emulate this aspect of the books, specializations and foci could be made to not stack. Someone like Harry might have Power specializations and control foci, someone like Luccio might rely entirely on specializations.
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That's a very good explanation. If you look at it like that, it makes perfect sense. I like it.
The out-of-story reason is that the talented evocators we see don't really seem to use foci a lot. Neither Luccio nor Morgan utilizes them much in the books, and Harry says repeatedly that he uses foci for evocation because he's not good at it. My character is a lot more like Luccio's precision strikes in his natural element.
That might well be, because we see them from outside only. If you described Harry from outside when he triggers his kinetic rings, for example, you wouldn't read nothing about the ring, just that he raises his hand and suddenly the walls crumble. It could be the same with Luccio and Morgan when it comes to focus items.
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Perhaps, to emulate this aspect of the books, specializations and foci could be made to not stack. Someone like Harry might have Power specializations and control foci, someone like Luccio might rely entirely on specializations.
That's an interesting thought. The only issue I see is that the Specialization Pyramid will eventually conflict with focus use, but that's a way down the line and might not be so much of a problem. If you're that good/powerful you'll have a bit internalized of your "weak" side as well.
That might well be, because we see them from outside only. If you described Harry from outside when he triggers his kinetic rings, for example, you wouldn't read nothing about the ring, just that he raises his hand and suddenly the walls crumble. It could be the same with Luccio and Morgan when it comes to focus items.
Um, sure, it's possible; but rereading the part in Dead Beat which really is the only spot we see Morgan and Luccio fight I don't see the narrative supporting that. Coupled with Harry's talk of him using his rod, staff, sword-cane and bracelet because he's bad at control it really feels like the good evocators don't use foci. Harry does not use a lot of foci for thaumaturgy, which is his self-proclaimed* strong suit. There's really only the summoning circle and Little Chicago that fits the bill as Focus Item - most his thaumaturgy is done without those.
*Bob seems to agree, from his comments on Little Chicago...
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Uh, Luccio /definitely/ uses foci. Harry several times talks about her blasting rod/staff.
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She has a staff in Turn Coat, but when does she employ it in fighting? In Dead Beat neither she nor Morgan has anything else in their hands than their Wardens Swords...
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Thank you for pointing out that "hole", because I hadn't really made the connection to high amount of tool use for goldsmithing to use of foci in magic. The reason he eschews foci are really two-fold, one out-of-story and one in-story.
The out-of-story reason is that the talented evocators we see don't really seem to use foci a lot. Neither Luccio nor Morgan utilizes them much in the books, and Harry says repeatedly that he uses foci for evocation because he's not good at it. My character is a lot more like Luccio's precision strikes in his natural element.
In-story, he simply never needed foci for Air evocation, wind and lightning both follow his will fairly effortlessly; it's really only Fire that is such a problem. (Mechanically, I've set his Discipline lower than might be expected, but instead he has control bonuses for Air and Spirit, this way Fire is drastically less controlled without his focus)
To him, the magic is the tool; the result is like the jewelry he makes: beautiful and what he aimed for. Using foci is a bit too much "using one tool to be able to use another tool". He also dislikes being dependent on objects to control his magic, objects that can be lost. I'll have to think it over though, because you're right - there is a discrepancy there, so it needs to be sorted out...
For the staff - you're probably right that I'm making it a bit bigger than needed; a presence or intimidation maneuver is probably right for it, solidifying it as something that make others take him seriously.
Addendum: After thinking a bit about it, I've come to the following conclusion:
In goldsmithing, he uses his tools, to shape the raw materials (precious metals) into his desired result (jewelry).
In his arcane life, he uses his tools (magic), to shape the raw materials (current reality) into his desired result (the final effect of the magic).
Hubris? Oh not at all! ;)
The fact that fire is so difficult for him, and that he has to use tools there, shines a spotlight on the flaws in his logic in disdaining foci; so far this just makes him dislike both fire magic and foci more, but as he matures a bit he might come around to re-evaluate his stance.
Does this seem a bit more consistent? It's sort of moving the out-of-game inconsistency into the psyche of the character instead, setting up future development.
Have you considered instead of trappings and stunts, to take a theme for your Thaumaturgy? Perhaps Geomancer or the like (Aurumancer, anyone?). That can certainly justify your goldsmithing abilities while staying in character, just as my own PC uses his Chloromancy to make fine woodwind musical instruments.
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Interesting concept, and might very well be a future specialization for him; but as it stands he uses mundane tools and skills for his goldsmithing (spent a couple years in schooling for it, and is still in a part-time apprenticeship to a non-magical but in-the-know goldsmith).
It'll be absolutely awesome when he figures out his talent for electricity and lightning can translate over into magnetism and manipulating metals and earth :p
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I'll just revive this thread, as it's for an enchanted item, and based on a Potion in the book.
I kind of want to do something like the Silver Bear belt buckle Harry uses in Blood Rites. As I remember it, it's actually pretty similar (at least in theme) to the Stimulant "super-coffee" potion from Fool Moon, only with fewer compels ;)
I figured I'd just grab the Stimulant potion, re-flavor it a touch, and use it as an enchanted item instead. Only... Am I the only one who thinks that potion looks a bit strong for only 4 shifts?
It suppresses 4 shifts of consequences (they're still there but can't be "interacted" with), and also reduces casting stress by one, but not below 1 (basically giving you a +1 Power modification stacking with Specializations and Foci).
I just can't see what the math is supposed to be here - I can definitely see the suppressing as a 4 shift effect (1 shift of effect for each shift of consequence suppressed), but essentially adding +1 to your Conviction for spellcasting purposes should "cost" a few shifts of effect aswell right?
Anyway - for an item that stores away a minor amount of life force to be used in a pinch, would you go for an effect along the lines of the Stimulant potion, or rather something like placing an Aspect or two for free tags representing that "boost of energy"?
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You can't seem to see the math because frankly, it's not there. The example spells, items, and often characters in the books frequently go beyond (or around, or through) what would otherwise be inconvenient rules preventing them from achieving the effect they desire.
The result is that you get evocation spells applying aspects to a zone (or even everyone in a zone) or initiating grapples, potions giving armour vs casting stress, and other things that the rules simply don't allow.
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Yeah, there are several examples that are wonky, which is sort of why I when here to ask around ;)
However, both of those functions are interesting. Temporarily boosting your Power seems a little off in regards to other effects, as there are very few "+X bonus to action Y" effects in the rest of the magic system, but suppressing consequences seem like a pretty nifty effect and feels completely ok. Should that perhaps be allowed at a 1:1 ratio?
Would an item that "banks" a tiny amount of life force (like the rings store back kinetic energy) be best handled as something like the above, or as aspects to be tagged?
I want the effect to be a once-per-session* pick-me-up, sort of second wind effect. Suppressing some amount of consequences and add an aspect to be tagged, maybe?
*Actually, really more like a once-per-story, but I don't really know how to do that by the rules except just choose to not use it more than that...
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Enchanted Items can't actually give you '+X to action Y' effects (again, despite what the printed examples might suggest). What they can do is replace the roll entirely with the strength of the enchantment.
(ex. you could have a strength:10 potion which allows you to take an Athletics sprint action as if you had rolls a total of 10, and fluff that potion as temporarily transforming the imbiber into the wind itself; good for getting to relative safety when ambushed by a nasty toad-demon)
Temporarily boosting your powers is also permitted within the rules by way of the Temporary Powers mechanics.
An invoke-for-effect of an appropriate aspect might be able to temporarily suppress the ability of another aspect to be invoked or compelled. That's the most direct RAW mechanism by which I could see a spell completely suppressing a Consequence for whatever duration. I'd talk it over with the group, though, because while it's not quite as powerful as actually healing the consequence (the slot is still occupied, and the spell will probably wear off before the consequence heals on its own unless there's a Recovery power involved) it is still quite powerful, and a savvy player could easily get quite a lot of 'bang for their buck' if it's allowed to apply to larger Consequences with no additional cost.
On the less reaching side of things, simply having a spell that applies an aspect (or, for a ritual or enchanted item, possibly more than one aspect) related to exceptional health, vitality, life force, etc, and then using the resulting tag(s) and subsequent conventional invokes to counteract any invokes (basically just going point-for-point) and argue (/negotiate) the narrative (in)appropriateness of Compels related to a Consequence.
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So, just looking at spell effects - what could be a good complexity for suppressing a decently narrow type of consequence? Similar to what we see a few times in the books - Lash helping him block pain (in PG I think?), and his not feeling pain or fatigue in CD.
Nothing as wide as "Physical consequences", but more narrow like "Pain-related" or "Fatigue/Exhaustion"? Is 1 shift / stress-value of consequences to cheap? 2 shifts? That would make it a 4 shift effect to suppress a Mild and an 8 shift to suppress a Moderate.
Unrelated to suppressing - I had an idea about the kind of Enchanted Item I want to make. It is definitely not within the RAW, and not even the wonky examples, but I want input on how it could be made to not be gamebreaking.
A Power 3 item can create one frail aspect on the user, usable once per session.
What do you think about an item that gives one frail life-force themed aspect per Milestone passed since its last use. Or only one aspect, but one tag/milestone. It would equal a Power 3 item if used each session, but would essentially "store" unspent uses.
Probably some kind of maximum number of aspects/tags, and if producing several different aspects (rather than one with several tags) they of course have to be predefined, including the order (if 2 aspects they are A and B; if 4 aspects then A, B, C and D; if only 1 then just A).
The benefit with multiple Aspects would probably be that they can be less "all purpose" - most could probably be used for Power boost in Evocation, but maybe only one or two could be spent on Control. Also several different aspects that could potentially be compelled - it can't be easy to keep your cool in that kind of energy rush!
I can't really find anything in the game except consequences that has a intended use-rate of less than once per session. I want the effect to be something along the power level of a Severe consequence, with a similar time frame for use - once per scenario if even that, and a real whollop of an effect then.
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So, just looking at spell effects - what could be a good complexity for suppressing a decently narrow type of consequence? Similar to what we see a few times in the books - Lash helping him block pain (in PG I think?), and his not feeling pain or fatigue in CD.
Nothing as wide as "Physical consequences", but more narrow like "Pain-related" or "Fatigue/Exhaustion"? Is 1 shift / stress-value of consequences to cheap? 2 shifts? That would make it a 4 shift effect to suppress a Mild and an 8 shift to suppress a Moderate.
I think this would be a simple (counter-)maneuver. So, I'd say, at least 3 shifts of power to create the maneuver. I'd say, at least 3 shifts for each consequence you want to "reverse-invoke". So you'd make a separate "pain-killing" maneuver to tag for each consequence. If someone wants to tag/invoke the consequence, they have to do a maneuver to beat the spell. This way, higher maneuvers matter.
I can't comment on the second part of your question...it seems wonky...
Edit: how about this: Use your enchanted items to have multiple uses/sessions. At milestones, you can trade out uses/session for power - but only uses that you haven't used, so that your item gradually gets stronger if you don't use it but you can use it less often. It's mostly just fluff since you're allowed to change your enchanted items around at milestones.
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I'm not entirely sure how you suggest the trading-in to work; are you suggesting something like the item gaining one shift of power per unspent use each milestone? So "just" a slower growth than my idea?
My idea is essentially a growth of 3 shifts of power (one frail aspect) per session/minor milestone, reset down to 0 upon use.
So I have it but don't use if for two sessions. In the third session I use it (getting three aspects) and I can't use it at all for the rest of that session. In the fourth session it has regained one "charge" and I use it again, this time only getting one aspect.
Also - items can't be changed each milestone, only each Significant and Major milestone.
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Please quote page...I couldn't find it under milestones.
I always figured you could switch out enchanted items when you had any "down time". Whether that was a milestone or no.
I'm not sure how to do that item. It sounds like a power.
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It's under Significant Milestone:
When a significant milestone occurs, your
character gets all of the following:
- One additional skill rank.
- One of the benefits of a minor milestone.
- Spellcasters may reconfigure their focus
and enchanted items and slots.
Personally, I wouldn't allow any significant reshuffling if there's a "mid-story" Significant milestone, but any proper downtime is enough no matter the last milestone before; I figure this is just aiming for something like that... I'm also curious that I can't find any info on when you can swap Rote spells, but that's beside the point.
Re: the item
Ah well, I guess I might have to shelve the idea for a while...
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I have the beta ed. of YS so it isn't listed.
I let Rotes change at any milestone, as long as it makes sense narratively. In fact, with enough down-time, even without a milestone, I'd allow a rote reshuffle. I kind of feel that down-time and milestones go hand in hand. When you have down-time it's because you just finished "doing stuff" and you ended the "doing stuff" with some kind of milestone.
In any case, don't shelf the idea. I'm sure someone else might have a good suggestion...it just happens that I don't :P
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My idea is essentially a growth of 3 shifts of power (one frail aspect) per session/minor milestone, reset down to 0 upon use.
So I have it but don't use if for two sessions. In the third session I use it (getting three aspects) and I can't use it at all for the rest of that session. In the fourth session it has regained one "charge" and I use it again, this time only getting one aspect.
I could see something that's sort of along these lines, albeit not exactly, if you go for a potion. A potion effect can be enhanced by invoking aspects, but it can't be above twice your lore. So if you have potion slots or actual potions left when your items recharge, you could houserule that you can pour old potion effects into new ones and use the +2 from the aspect to increase the new potions effect.
But that would pretty much be the limit of what I would allow. But I don't think I would allow even that. Enchanted items (as much as anything the character has or can do) are there to be used, not stored. Use them or lose them.
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Well, I want to use it - just like Harry uses the silver bear belt buckle in Blood Rites when he's about to fight the BCVs. I want something to be used once per scenario/story with a fairly big effect. Not a nuke, but not firecracker either.
Of course I can make an item with 1 use per session and whatever power I can scrunch up with adding slots and such and just use it only once per story, but at that point I'm really starting to feel that I actively cripple my character. The item feels like something my character would make (a sort of "rainy day" insurance), but I could get a lot more bang for my buck if I instead make something that has a narratively has a shorter recharge so I can actually use it most sessions.
Part of the "problem" here might be that my group (or in this case, just my GM and I as this particular idea is for a one-player game) tends to run stories a fair bit longer than the 2 or 3 sessions YS seems to go for. It's not uncommon for a story to be six or eight sessions long, and making an item that can be used (and useful) 2 out of 3 sessions but only using it once feels a lot less wasteful than using it once in 6 sessions when it could be (mechanically) used and useful in 4 of them.
So, to summarize:
It bugs me that I can make an item with a default "frequency of use" and take a minor hit to its strength to drastically increase its frequency (thereby decreasing the "opportunity cost" of using the item), but if I want to lower its intended frequency of use (increasing the opportunity cost), I can't actually get anything for that.
I'm looking for something that can be useful on the same timescale as a Severe consequence. That is clearly a higher opportunity cost than enchanted items has in the rules, both as written and (I think) as intended. Maybe enchanted items is not the way to go, mechanically - that's just where I was when I got the idea.
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So, to summarize:
It bugs me that I can make an item with a default "frequency of use" and take a minor hit to its strength to drastically increase its frequency (thereby decreasing the "opportunity cost" of using the item), but if I want to lower its intended frequency of use (increasing the opportunity cost), I can't actually get anything for that.
I'm looking for something that can be useful on the same timescale as a Severe consequence. That is clearly a higher opportunity cost than enchanted items has in the rules, both as written and (I think) as intended. Maybe enchanted items is not the way to go, mechanically - that's just where I was when I got the idea.
I recommend an adaptation of the Limitation rebate power developed on these boards.
My mind isn't working as well as it should at the moment, but that's where I would start with something like this.
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That...is actually a really good idea... Mechanically an IoP-ish item (with the custom version of the rebates rather than the RAW ones), with relevant powers and a large-ish rebate due to rarity of availability... It'll have to wait a bit for my little wizard, as he's strapped for refresh (as is to be expected), but it might very well fit the bill... Thanks! I simply needed to start looking outside the box where the idea started...
Now to start looking at what might be fitting to wrap up in it...
On enchanted items and frequency in general though - would the possibility of reversing the "trade Power for Uses" be very broken if allowed only once? That is - the item is normally say Power 5, 1 use/session; turn it into Power 6, use once every two sessions? As a one-off trade only? It'd act wonky with Frequency specialisations/foci, but for now let's assume that's non-existent.
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Solution!
Thaumaturgy!
Make an aspect with a duration of, say 1year. Every milestone, do another ritual to create another aspect.
Each aspect is fragile, so if it is used it goes away...but if you don't use it, you'll have an additional aspect to tag. Just specify that all aspects must be tagged at once or have the shifts build up for a more powerful maneuver.
Ithere'd be some possibilities for compels, like having piles of power building up around you and things being hexed etc...
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Also an interesting idea, definitely... Though that does feel a bit more power-gaming-y. Of course, there is the steady stream of complications it would create to make the story interesting...
On the idea of using Limitation - How much of a limitation would you say "Usable for one scene (maaaaybe-two-consecutive-if-it-makes-for-extra-fun-complications) per story" is:
Severe - A limitation is severe if it makes the attached Powers significantly less useful and reliable in almost every session.
Extreme - A limitation is extreme if getting to use the attached Powers is a special occasion.
I guess it sort of depends on how many sessions "a story" usually are.
Hang on - if I pick powers connected to it right, maybe it can even be fluid between stories depending on how long the story is!
Basically, since it's going to count as one of those two (50% rebate or 75% rebate), I can set the "final" price as -1 Refresh (at least to start with) and if it's a relatively short story, it might "only" count as a Severe limitation, thus that item contains 2 refresh worth of powers, while if it's a long story it'll be an Extreme limitation and thus contain 4 refresh worth!
The rationale for the difference is that during a longer story it will have had "more time to save back energy and life force".
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Also an interesting idea, definitely... Though that does feel a bit more power-gaming-y. Of course, there is the steady stream of complications it would create to make the story interesting...
It's not powergamy...here's why:
1. It's using existing rules
2. That's what thaumaturgy is for...and, I think, most wizards with thaumaturgy have an aspect or two they can tag in an emergency.
3. It's EXACTLY what you want it to do
4. It's a one-shot thing. Even if it's a 10 shift maneuver...that 10 shift maneuver took you 5 milestones to build. It caused some complications in the mean-time...
You could attune it to an item for extra fun...so if someone else gets it, they can tag it or just keep you from using it.
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"Powergamy" doesn't have an agreed-upon meaning, so nothing can really be it or not be it.
Solution!
Thaumaturgy!
Make an aspect with a duration of, say 1year. Every milestone, do another ritual to create another aspect.
Each aspect is fragile, so if it is used it goes away...but if you don't use it, you'll have an additional aspect to tag. Just specify that all aspects must be tagged at once or have the shifts build up for a more powerful maneuver.
I don't think this would work. Tags have to be used quickly, otherwise they disappear.
On the idea of using Limitation - How much of a limitation would you say "Usable for one scene (maaaaybe-two-consecutive-if-it-makes-for-extra-fun-complications) per story" is:
Severe - A limitation is severe if it makes the attached Powers significantly less useful and reliable in almost every session.
Extreme - A limitation is extreme if getting to use the attached Powers is a special occasion.
I guess it sort of depends on how many sessions "a story" usually are.
Hang on - if I pick powers connected to it right, maybe it can even be fluid between stories depending on how long the story is!
Basically, since it's going to count as one of those two (50% rebate or 75% rebate), I can set the "final" price as -1 Refresh (at least to start with) and if it's a relatively short story, it might "only" count as a Severe limitation, thus that item contains 2 refresh worth of powers, while if it's a long story it'll be an Extreme limitation and thus contain 4 refresh worth!
The rationale for the difference is that during a longer story it will have had "more time to save back energy and life force".
I'm a little dubious about the idea of a Power balanced over multiple sessions. DFRPG is mostly balanced session-by-session.
But if you really want to do it, a Limitation is probably a decent approach. And yes, the value would depend on the situation. And maybe even on the Powers attached...some Powers are situational enough that you wouldn't want to use them all that often. I'd normally call such a Limitation extreme, but it would definitely depend.
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I don't think this would work. Tags have to be used quickly, otherwise they disappear.
I don't agree. Skills like contacts, investigation and burglary are meant to create tags used for later. Besides, there's duration on thaumaturgy for a reason. Also, if he's going to go through all the trouble of inventing a power, why not just use a power that already exists and house-rule the tags lasting longer. It seems way easier. If you want it represented by refresh, call it a stunt and be done.
rituals can be as in-depth or "hand-wavy" as the GM likes. If adding power to the maneuver every milestone seems too powerful make it "every 3rd minor milestone, every 2nd significant and every Major Milestone." Or whatever. In this way, it's going to be as game breaking as the GM allows since the GM determines milestones.
I'm looking at it this way: a 10-shift maneuver useable once after 5 milestones is not overpowered when you consider most wizards can throw together a 10 shift maneuver with a few declarations and a fairly quick ritual.
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Assessments are one thing, rituals are another.
I'm away from my book right now, but if I recall correctly YS is quite clear. Ritual tags don't just hang around.
Check page 265, I think that's the relevant passage.
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Found it:
Maneuvers last one scene by default but those aspects can have duration put on them so they last longer - in fact it specifically uses an example to point out that aspects can be extended...I'll highlight.
system terms that already have a set duration—
maneuvers and stress don’t last beyond a scene,
and consequences remain until enough time has
passed that recovery is possible.
It is possible to set up spells that last a great
deal longer by adding complexity. You can choose
to move the spell’s duration up one step on the
time chart (page 315) starting from an appropriate
default and adding one to the complexity
for every step up you want to go. So a curse that
acts as a maneuver to put Bad Luck on a target
might start from “15 minutes” (about the length
of that particular scene), and you could make it
last all day by adding five shifts of complexity to
the spell. Duration can be applied to a spell in a
flexible sense—how long the energies will hang
around until triggered, how long a particular
effect will last, and so on.
In any case, I wasn't suggesting the aspect last for days. I was suggesting he have the aspect be available for days and only relevant when tagged. Once tagged/invoked, it'd last the scene, then go away.
So here's how I'd do it...then I'll stop arguing the point.
I'd let you start with your basic Lore cap(as if you did a ritual with a complexity under your Lore). 3 shifts to a maneuver, the rest to duration.
Every milestone, I'd get the player to do a couple of declarations to boost the complexity. Basically, reinforcing and making the spell more powerful and last longer.
Every declaration has to make sense for the spell as the wizard is building up and storing more energy. So, in the long run, it's going to be harder to justify making the spell more powerful.
You tag it for a one-shot use. So it'd be an aspect of "stored power" which could be tagged for whatever is appropriate. That aspect could be compelled.
I think it's well within the realm of thaum/ritual.
PS. Good call on the page number!
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It's not the Aspect duration that's the problem. It's the tag duration. You can't just have the tag floating around waiting to be used for all that time.
That's part of the standard rules for tags, which are ignored only by assessments.
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Where does it say that? You get the tag on any aspect you create. It's only on fragile aspects that you have to use the tag immediately.
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A fragile aspect just means the aspect itself goes away after tagging, the timeframe for a tag is the same. Page 106 says that tags should be used "almost immediately" after being brought into play, at latest the same scene. "Some assessments are an exception to this time limit".
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This is what I'm suggesting. The maneuver triggers at the right time, allowing a tag in the scene it triggers.
Because temporary aspects from maneuvers
are transient, these sorts of spells tend to be
very carefully timed or triggered so the aspect
or effect manifests when it’s needed (e.g., “I’ll
arrange it so he Can’t Think Straight right
at the moment he steps on stage”). For a more
lasting effect, it’s time to look at contests and
conflicts.
If the intent is to create a temporary aspect
that can be tagged more than once (remember
that normally you’d only get the benefit of the
tag once and have to invoke after that), simply
chain two or more maneuvers together in the
same spell, each inflicting the same aspect or a
similar variant. In other words, if you want to
take advantage of two tags against a target of
Good Conviction, you’ll need to set up two
maneuvers, for a minimum complexity of 6 (3
for each, as per above). As wizards are usually
low on fate points, this option allows you a little
more mileage without having to worry about
impacting your fate point budget.
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I'm not clear how one would 'time a maneuver carefully' to be 'available in an emergency' short of including some variation of Wards' contingent variables (which are rather strict).
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I would design it as a divination or attach it to one.
Edit: have your enchanted item be the trigger for the ritual. Useable 1/session, as normal. It becomes the catalyst and link for the ritual which is a bunch of saved up power (as I described earlier). Once you trigger, the enchanted item slot is useless until you do another ritual. (or it just defaults to a normal maneuver - once it recharges in the next session)
Or you could custom build a new power from scratch. I'm just making suggestions. I thought it might be easier and save you some refresh.
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Thansk for all the ideas an input everyone! I've decided for now to go with a regular aspect-granting enchanted item - reshuffling a little bit will get me a once per session item granting two aspects for a cost-to-effect ratio I'm ok with "holding back" uses of.
In the longer run I'm looking into designing a power (or choosing a mix of powers) to be held in an item using Limitation to reflect the recharge time of the item.
That'll give me some time to figure out more precisely what I want the "rush of stored lifeforce" to actually do. I'm currently thinking of a tweaked and "specialized recovery-version, but whatever I cook up I'll bring it back to the boards for review - you people have a lot better grasp of what's balanced and not than I have, and my GM is even newer to GMing than I am, so she's grateful for the additional viewpoints from here!
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I think you can already do what you want just by using the 'I happen to have the right kind of potion...' (roll lore) rule, as long as you have potion slots open.
So, for example: You need to life something heavy
In the game fiction layer, it looks like:
"Life force belt buckle activate! strength of a bear!" and you lift the thing.
In the rule layer:
(rolls lore) I happen to have a might replacement potion available. I use it and replace my might roll with the potions power.
So, the "I just happen to have a potion for that..." rule can also be used to represent someone who carries several enchanted objects. How many potion slots you have and how good you are at not screwing up lore rolls represents how much they change the story.