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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: potestas on January 14, 2014, 12:22:51 AM
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What would such thaumaturgical (SP) effect look like if you were to grant yourself or another inhuman strength or claws? You would want it to last at least a day, if its permanent its going to cost, but if its only for a day. How much for the ability the time for it to last that sort of thing. Granted why give yourself strength or claw when you can make it rain fire, but you never know, Raith was immune to direct magic, enhanced punching ability would have certainly made things easier for harry that day. Any ideas or has some already been posted?
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A discussion happened recently here:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,40144.msg1972112.html#msg1972112
Starting on that post and going for a page or so.
Here is what some people might say:
Duration: 5 shifts
- To go from 1 scene(15 minutes) to 1 day
Transforming: 9 shifts
- Enough shifts to take a person out +1 (so a stress track of 4 would be 5 shifts + 4 shifts in the event of a perfect +4 defense roll)
Cost of Powers: 3-4/refresh attained
- I'm not sure about this. I think it's enough shifts to create a maneuver (3 shifts) per power granted. refresh cost of the power
So getting Inhuman strength for 1 day would be 17 shifts. You could tag it to gain access to the power for free once for a scene. You'd have to spend 2 fp's (1 fp/refresh) to use it for any other scenes that same day.
I'm unclear as to whether multiple powers with the same ritual would only be an additional 3 for each gained power, or if you'd need to also add duration for each power.(3 for the power +5 for duration=12 shifts for each power granted).
Edit: Corrected a broad-sweeping generalization.
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why should you need to spend fp if the power is temporary and can be dispelled. Kind of hefty cost then
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I think the consensus is...
Pretty sure there's no consensus. My method would differ greatly from the one you propose there.
why should you need to spend fp if the power is temporary and can be dispelled.
Because that's the rules. Says so in the book.
The good news is, you might be able to use aspect tags as Fate Points. Or you might not be able to. Opinions vary.
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Because that's the rules. Says so in the book.
Where does it say that?
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Sidebar of page 92 and note in the margin of page 283.
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I need a way to balance it. Some of what I read suggests pieces of the power. Each power actually provides several concrete benefits. I f I need to hit someone hard maybe that would be the aspect of the power the ritual provides for a time. If I need to move boulders for a time a different ritual. Much more limited similar costs and it really doesn't matter if you have a the ability to lift a large boulder for a month since when is the next time your going to need that. ( can you imagine Harrys door sign, no parties, no love potions, oh you have a boulder that needs to be moved...right on that)
The reason I am concerned is there are great many nasty's that simply shrug off magic. And unless I want everyone to run around with soul fire or any of the homegrown abilities Ive seen that automatically bypass weaknesses A wizard has to have a way around it with magic as that is his bread and butter. Thus ritual that grant powers.
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Sidebar of page 92 and note in the margin of page 283.
the sidebar is for entities granting power, not rituals.
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The margin note refers you to the sidebar when discussing power-granting rituals.
A wizard has to have a way around it with magic as that is his bread and butter.
Not so. It's okay for wizards to have weaknesses.
Though, it bears mentioning that indirect magic attacks like launching solid objects at people might bypass some forms of magic immunity. And even if a baddie is totally immune to all forms of magic, a wizard can maneuver. Or just pick up a gun.
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Pretty sure there's no consensus. My method would differ greatly from the one you propose there.
Well, from a lot of what people have posted recently, and from a lot of what I've read on these boards in general, this was the general consensus that I got. I should probably re-word my previous statement.
Buuuut...that said, what would your method be, out of curiosity.
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I'd probably just pick a number that seemed reasonable based on the circumstances. Not all Powers of a given Refresh cost would have the same complexity.
I'd think about how many shifts it would take to get a roughly-equal effect with a different method, and use that as a guide.
So far I haven't seen any formula that makes me want to change that policy.
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The margin note refers you to the sidebar when discussing power-granting rituals.
Not so. It's okay for wizards to have weaknesses.
Though, it bears mentioning that indirect magic attacks like launching solid objects at people might bypass some forms of magic immunity. And even if a baddie is totally immune to all forms of magic, a wizard can maneuver. Or just pick up a gun.
yes I've seen it done that way too, my toon has used earth magic to pull steel rebar's from the concrete and direct them into fey. I thought that was a nice touch.
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My way would basically look like what Taran wrote, only without the added duration. I would just focus on the time it is actually used, which is the duration of 1 scene, which is (roughly) 15 minutes.
I would, however require you to either spend fate points or spend tags in the form of valuable aspects. Want flight? Get an ingredient for your ritual that will reasonably grant you the ability to fly. The feather of a gryphon, the heart of a wind elemental, that kind of thing. It should be hard. Hard enough to make other options more viable. In my opinion, you either take powers you want permanently, or you have to work for them. Taking new powers any other scene, just because you have thaumaturgy is an abuse of the temporary powers rule, I feel. If you want to be able to switch out powers, make that part of your concept and build, don't expect a free meal.
I need a way to balance it. Some of what I read suggests pieces of the power. Each power actually provides several concrete benefits. I f I need to hit someone hard maybe that would be the aspect of the power the ritual provides for a time. If I need to move boulders for a time a different ritual. Much more limited similar costs and it really doesn't matter if you have a the ability to lift a large boulder for a month since when is the next time your going to need that. ( can you imagine Harrys door sign, no parties, no love potions, oh you have a boulder that needs to be moved...right on that)
That's sort of what enchanted items or better yet potions are supposed to do. You can create enchanted items with thaumaturgy rituals stored in them, supposed to act as skill replacement rolls. That can be pretty much any skill and any application you like, as long as you choose them when you make the enchanted item. You could also create an enchanted item that grants you a "supercharged muscles" aspect (or more, if you can put enough power into it), that you can tag on a subsequent fists roll. It will basically give you the same (or a better) effect than strength powers would give you, and it is well within the realms of what is already possible.
If you have something that you'll rarely use, but that you still need, keep some potion slots open. Potions are basically one-use enchanted items, and if you keep potion slots open, you can later declare them with a successful Lore roll.
The reason I am concerned is there are great many nasty's that simply shrug off magic. And unless I want everyone to run around with soul fire or any of the homegrown abilities Ive seen that automatically bypass weaknesses A wizard has to have a way around it with magic as that is his bread and butter. Thus ritual that grant powers.
Well, any wizard can still use mortal gear, especially weapons. Harry does so on a regular basis. And there is nothing wrong with magic NOT being the solution. Don't get me wrong, if you want to buff up on a strength power to defeat a powerful nasty that is immune to magic, that's totally fine. I'm just saying that it is going to be a long way around to gather ingredients and such. And since you are usually not alone in the group, another character might have a better way of dealing with the problem, so it would be his time to shine. I know, if you are playing a wizard, you want to solve everything with magic. Hammer, nail and all that. But that's not the only way to go.
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the sidebar is for entities granting power, not rituals.
And the sidebar on 283 clarifies how to add powers and refers back to the temporary powers rule on 92.
This is in the RAW. It doesn't set a shift cost for how to do it, but it specifically says that this is how it works. Magic doesn't let you get free powers. It lets you do various effects and can be a justification for temporary powers.
But I think the crux of the issue here is this: Remember that DFRPG is a group game. You character may not always have the answer, but that's so that another character can. Monsters with magic immunity exist to make wizards use a different solution other than magic, or let other characters shine in the fight.
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the sidebar is for entities granting power, not rituals.
While the argument has been thoroughly made that those rules apply anyway, I'd actually contest that the sidebar is general as written.
In rare circumstances, it might be appropriate
for a character to temporarily take on
supernatural powers. Usually, this happens
when a supernatural entity imbues someone
with power for a short time in order to
take on a threat or fulfill some part of its
agendas.
...
Regardless of the circumstances, temporary
powers should be dealt with in a
similar fashion to mid-session upgrades,
but with less cost—the player has to spend
fate points equal to the power’s usual cost,
but not permanent refresh.
My bolding for emphasis. These rules are simply the rules for taking on temporary powers, no matter the source. The most common source would be when powerful "benefactors" imbues a character temporarily, but that's only one possibility.
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While the argument has been thoroughly made that those rules apply anyway, I'd actually contest that the sidebar is general as written.
My bolding for emphasis. These rules are simply the rules for taking on temporary powers, no matter the source. The most common source would be when powerful "benefactors" imbues a character temporarily, but that's only one possibility.
Okay, seriously guys. Stop ignoring the YS283 sidebar. If you don't have the correct version of the book, stop using the preorder one and buy it. The 283 sidebar specifically says that those rules apply to rituals. Done. It's RAW.
The cost of a ritual can be argued, the school of magic, the limitations, the optimality, whether or not the ritual has the be cast the immediate scene before or can be "banked". There are lots, lots of things up to interpretation on this. But that bit is stated explicitly.
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(@InFerrumVeritas: I take it you quoted my post as support for your statement, because you and me are arguing the same thing here; otherwise my post was a lot less clear than I thought it was...)
I wanted to point out that the sidebar is actually clear and general enough to be applied to stuff like rituals even if the YS283 margin note didn't exist. The most important part of the YS92 sidebar is really the "Regardless of the circumstances" sentence.
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(@InFerrumVeritas: I take it you quoted my post as support for your statement, because you and me are arguing the same thing here; otherwise my post was a lot less clear than I thought it was...)
I wanted to point out that the sidebar is actually clear and general enough to be applied to stuff like rituals even if the YS283 margin note didn't exist. The most important part of the YS92 sidebar is really the "Regardless of the circumstances" sentence.
Oh, yes. We are in agreement. I just wanted to remove the ambiguity of your statement because a significant amount of argument has been made that this is something which is ambiguous and it is not.
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Okay, seriously guys. Stop ignoring the YS283 sidebar. If you don't have the correct version of the book, stop using the preorder one and buy it. The 283 sidebar specifically says that those rules apply to rituals. Done. It's RAW.
The cost of a ritual can be argued, the school of magic, the limitations, the optimality, whether or not the ritual has the be cast the immediate scene before or can be "banked". There are lots, lots of things up to interpretation on this. But that bit is stated explicitly.
my copy has big line though it so the question becomes: what's the best way to do it and not worry about fate points. cause I am doing it, so now we need good ways to do it? I've posted a few any other ideas.
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I've already suggested ways: Free tags.
So you've got to build multiple aspects or multiple tags into your rituals. This would make your rituals incredibly complex.
Lets say the base complexity (based on my formula is) is 9 + (Aspect + duration)*Frequency.
1 power for 1 day, then would be complexity 17, but you'd only get 1 free use for the day.
More times/day would be +8 shifts/tag
Each aspect would have to have its own duration. So you could have 5 aspects, each with a duration of 1 week which you could tag once each. They'd still last 1 week so, if you use up all the tags, you'd have to spend the FP's on them(as long as you pay 4 shifts to make them sticky).
This ritual would have a complexity of 59. (3X5) for 5 aspects: 15 + (7X5) for 1 week duration for each aspect + base of 9 = 59
lowering the duration to 1 day would be a complexity of 49.
To make it cheaper, you could have
An after noon: +7
1 aspect last 1 day +8
1 aspect last 1 week + 9
Base complexity: 9
That would be 3 free fragile tags for a total of: 33 shifts of complexity.
I'm not sure if that seems too high/low or seems fair. Just a suggestion.
Edit: And just to add to the chorus of voices, I'd like to point out a significant fact in the game:
OW pg. 92
Classic Werewolves
Description: As for werewolves.
What We Know: A classic werewolf is a person
who uses magic to transform himself into a
wolf; the magic reshapes the human body to a
lupine body.
Unfortunately, classic werewolves have to
learn how to do everything in wolf-form—
they’re still a human mind in a wolf body and
lack lupine instincts and experience.
The game didn't give were-wolves -2 Ritual: transformation. They used Magic as a narrative justification for spending refresh on shape-shifting powers, with a refresh cost of -7!
So I find it hard to believe that, just because someone has Thaumaturgy, they can use it to take 7 refresh worth of powers for free that a Shapeshifting character (with the justification of being able to use magic to shapeshift) had to spend a boat-load of refresh on. And, to boot, the shapeshifter only gets that one trick while the thaumaturgist can do much, much more like create wards, landmines, divinations etc...
If you want to be a wizard who shape-shifts, then really, you should take shape shifting powers.
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not sure how a tag would work to grant a power.
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The tag is there to provide the value of one FP, as you have to pay 1FP/refresh worth of powers granted. The use of tags to pay that is whats meant by "(or tags...)" in the margin note on thaum-granted powers. What grants the powers is the ritual itself, but the player still needs to pay for it - hence the aspect to tag.
There's further (or really previous) discussion with the designers about paying with tags that led to the addition of that margin note, but somone not on a phone will have to dig it up ;)
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I left a link that lead to a link...that lead to another link. Here it is
Fred's comments are relevant:
"A tag is a free invoke.
A tag therefore can do anything an invoke can.
An invoke can invoke for effect." (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24061.msg1022205.html#msg1022205)
Edit: there's a more detailed thread where Fred is talking about using Thaum to get temporary powers and basically says, "yes, buy them". But there's more about using aspects and tagging them in that same thread...I have no idea where to find it.
*searching...searching*
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Double-post:
FOUND IT.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17367.0.html
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that probably is the easiest solution, or maybe a magic item a one shot deal or once per session type thing. I just think wizards should be able to do more. I think I will never get passed my D&D wizard, I made most of his great spells he was an unholy terror by the time we were done leveling him he was a one man party, spell for everything. Of course that was D&D before 4th edition killed it by making it into a video game on paper
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I think the 'one man party' is exactly why you have to pay FP's to gain temporary powers.
that probably is the easiest solution, or maybe a magic item a one shot deal or once per session type thing.
An enchanted item won't get you the complexity you need for a power, probably. Although, you could use an IoP, get a rebate and have an "enchanted item" that gives you strength or some other power for a relatively low price.
I like using potions and enchanted items to cover all my bases. Let's say your Lore is 4 and you have a crafting specialty to boost enchanted items to 5 or 6.
That's an <<insert skill>> item for any situation/solution.
Need to leap over a high fences (or dodge an attack)? athletics: 6 (biomancy)
Need to rip a door off it's hinges? Might 6 (biomancy)
Need to have "just the right come-back" as a social defense? Rapport: 6 (divination)
Need to break into that warehouse?: Burglary to become a gas and go through the crack in the door.
You can either have these at the ready(if you know what you're getting in to) or have them in potion form.
For combat:
Guns or Fists or weapons(for attacking things immune to magic)
Block or Athletics for defense
There's a character in a submerged game I'm running who's a crafter and he's got an enchanted (weapon:9) sword usable by anyone 5X/day. Give that to someone who has a good weapon skill and see what happens or make a Skill replacement item that gives you a Weapons attack of + "X" and you could use it yourself.
Wizards are pretty flexible - and can still do a lot of indirect damage - even without buying powers.
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I don't like the idea of using tags to gain temporary Powers. I think it's too easy, and that by letting people casually acquire 1-Refresh Powers it can easily unbalance the game. If you want a read a long-ass argument about that and other things, look here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35855.0.html).
I just think wizards should be able to do more. I think I will never get passed my D&D wizard, I made most of his great spells he was an unholy terror by the time we were done leveling him he was a one man party, spell for everything.
In other words, you want the game to be broken in your favour.
Wizards absolutely should not be able to do more. D&D3 wizards became all-powerful because WotC screwed up. If you can make a similarly powerful wizard in DFRPG, it's because Evil Hat screwed up.
In theory, wizards are no more useful to the party than anyone else. This is true in both D&D and DFRPG. In DFRPG it's sometimes also true in practice, in D&D3 it really isn't.
Of course that was D&D before 4th edition killed it by making it into a video game on paper
Please. If you must drag D&D edition wars into this forum, come up with some better attacks. "A video game on paper" is such a lazy and meaningless insult.
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that probably is the easiest solution, or maybe a magic item a one shot deal or once per session type thing.
That would again be a bargain. You can get 4 enchanted items for 1 point of refresh. If that equals 4 points of temporary powers, you could, again, go mad with power here.
I just think wizards should be able to do more. I think I will never get passed my D&D wizard, I made most of his great spells he was an unholy terror by the time we were done leveling him he was a one man party, spell for everything. Of course that was D&D before 4th edition killed it by making it into a video game on paper
That might be the core issue. Fate isn't D&D. Characters aren't really balanced around powers, they are balanced around narrative impact. Granted, it is still a bit lopsided, and especially wizards can still do a lot, if you have a clever player, but it isn't as bad as some other games I've come across.
Or to put it into the words of a guy on another board:
"I blame WotC for brainwashing us into thinking that +2 damage per attack is acceptable for a fighter, while wizards can get away with stopping time and gating in solars."
Also, aren't there usually other people at the table? I for one love for my character to be a hero in a scene, to show of his skills and what makes him special. But at the same time, I wouldn't want to be the center of every scene. It's what I like to call the Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw) problem.
Another great thing about Fate and what it taught me is that there doesn't have to be a lock-key type solution to everything. Just because there is a big strong monster, doesn't mean the solution has to be to be big and strong. If the village is terrorized by a monster, one solution would be to slay the monster. A strong fighter or a wizard with some powerful attack spells might so the trick. But that's not the only story you can tell. You could go in with a socialite and save the day. Not by talking the monster down (though even that might work), but by motivating the villagers, coordinating them, getting them ready to fight the monster themselves. It is going to be a vastly different story than the one the monster hunter would be telling, but in the end, the monster would be defeated. At no point was it necessary for the socialite to pick up any strength or similar powers to fight the monster.
Using tags to justify temporary powers doesn't have to be a casual thing. But if there is a good story around it, or a well thought out explanation, I'm all for it. Even for stunts (minus the ritual then). I think that allowing something will most of the time work better than prohibiting it. But then again, if someone is using this to take temporary powers all the time, I would require them to take a permanent power to do so. After all, that's what their character is now all about. And if the explanation isn't reasonable, I will still veto it. A gunfighter using a resources roll to get a hold of a rifle with a "scope" stunt? Sure. A half-pixie exotic dancer? Not so much.
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To clarify: If you went with the minimum complexity (based on my example) there'd be no way to fit a power into an enchanted item. An enchanted item could allow an aspect to tag (or tag for effect) but not to gain a power.
@sanctaphrax. I was kind of thinking that 12-14 complexity wouldn't be a simple ritual. Not an "every second scene" kind of thing. And that's for a singular power. Obviously, at higher refresh, that kind of complexity would be easier to reach and declarations easier to obtain because of higher skills.
The narrative of the ritual and the difficulty for obtaining the things you need for it (ie: declarations) are entirely up to the GM so I can see where, if a GM is doesn't rein things in, it could get out of hand.
Maybe 1 aspect/refresh (instead of 1 aspect/power). That would require multiple aspects tagged for any given power and a higher overall complexity.
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It's already "supposed" (if you want to allow it) to be one aspect per refresh, as the tags are to give "virtual fate points", and the fp cost of temp powers are 1 fp per refresh, not per power.
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@sanctaphrax. I was kind of thinking that 12-14 complexity wouldn't be a simple ritual. Not an "every second scene" kind of thing. And that's for a singular power. Obviously, at higher refresh, that kind of complexity would be easier to reach and declarations easier to obtain because of higher skills.
Um. Daniel Thresh (to take an example) does 12 shift biomancy like you sneeze. Even if you knock him down to Submerged, he still does 10 shifts in a breath. 12-14 shifts is barely a speed bump to someone who's a dedicated Thaumaturgist. Actually, scratch that, they're barely a deterrent if you are evenly split between Evocation and Thaumaturgy at Submerged (theoretical Thresh who has one refinement in Thaumaturgy and only half his foci in Thaumaturgy still throws 9 shifts in biomancy around).
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He's also 18 refresh.
But that was my point. At a certain level, complex rituals become trivial. But that goes for thaumaturgy in general.
Doing a 10-15 shift ward should be complicated but it's not at that level.
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He's also 18 refresh.
First, he's 15 refresh. Second, even if you knock him down to 10 Refresh (as I described), he still makes that ritual look easy peasy.
But that was my point. At a certain level, complex rituals become trivial. But that goes for thaumaturgy in general.
Doing a 10-15 shift ward should be complicated but it's not at that level.
Btw, regarding pbp. a ward on the door would be useful... Sorry, i digress.
But it should not be simple when you're at Submerged.
(Also, Thresh has a 12 shift Ward around the entire compound with a 10 shift I'm-going-to-maul-you landmine)
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But it should not be simple when you're at Submerged.
Dude, you just said he could pull off a 9 shift biomancy at submerged. Put his focus on wards and he could pull off the same thing. (and that's split between evo and thaum).
I'm not sure what kind of point I'm trying to make anymore. :P
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Dude, you just said he could pull off a 9 shift biomancy at submerged. Put his focus on wards and he could pull off the same thing. (and that's split between evo and thaum).
I'm not sure what kind of point I'm trying to make anymore. :P
9 shift biomancy if he's evenly split. I could boost him up to 11 like I breathe just by moving focus slots around. That's a declaration or two away. Hell, using the standard declaration procedures, Submerged!Thresh throws that together in less than five minutes and can push himself a little to cast it in three exchanges. And be expected to succeed.
My point is, 12 shifts is too easy for a ritual to grant powers.
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Actually, with the new info that it's one aspect/refresh, the complexity is higher. It's complexity 12 for a 1 refresh power and complexity 15 for 2 refresh power. That's for 1 power that lasts one scene. There's still the debate of "how much time" a ritual like that should take(which is part of the problem).
And granted, the ritual is easy but only if you pump all your foci into that one specialty - which leads to other draw-backs.
Here's another question(to everyone): Would the complexity be less if you had to spend FP's on it?
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Actually, with the new info that it's one aspect/refresh, the complexity is higher. It's complexity 12 for a 1 refresh power and complexity 15 for 2 refresh power. That's for 1 power that lasts one scene. There's still the debate of "how much time" a ritual like that should take(which is part of the problem).
And granted, the ritual is easy but only if you pump all your foci into that one specialty - which leads to other draw-backs.
Except for the fact that doing rituals to grant powers makes you a swiss army weapon, which would negate the drawbacks.
Here's another question(to everyone): Would the complexity be less if you had to spend FP's on it?
Well, yes. Or you can build complexity with them, it's the same thing.
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If you're willing to spend the fate points you don't need the aspects (as you don't need the tags), so a fp spent there knocks 3 off the total complexity.
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That would again be a bargain. You can get 4 enchanted items for 1 point of refresh. If that equals 4 points of temporary powers, you could, again, go mad with power here.
That might be the core issue. Fate isn't D&D. Characters aren't really balanced around powers, they are balanced around narrative impact. Granted, it is still a bit lopsided, and especially wizards can still do a lot, if you have a clever player, but it isn't as bad as some other games I've come across.
Or to put it into the words of a guy on another board:
"I blame WotC for brainwashing us into thinking that +2 damage per attack is acceptable for a fighter, while wizards can get away with stopping time and gating in solars."
Also, aren't there usually other people at the table? I for one love for my character to be a hero in a scene, to show of his skills and what makes him special. But at the same time, I wouldn't want to be the center of every scene. It's what I like to call the Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw) problem.
Another great thing about Fate and what it taught me is that there doesn't have to be a lock-key type solution to everything. Just because there is a big strong monster, doesn't mean the solution has to be to be big and strong. If the village is terrorized by a monster, one solution would be to slay the monster. A strong fighter or a wizard with some powerful attack spells might so the trick. But that's not the only story you can tell. You could go in with a socialite and save the day. Not by talking the monster down (though even that might work), but by motivating the villagers, coordinating them, getting them ready to fight the monster themselves. It is going to be a vastly different story than the one the monster hunter would be telling, but in the end, the monster would be defeated. At no point was it necessary for the socialite to pick up any strength or similar powers to fight the monster.
Using tags to justify temporary powers doesn't have to be a casual thing. But if there is a good story around it, or a well thought out explanation, I'm all for it. Even for stunts (minus the ritual then). I think that allowing something will most of the time work better than prohibiting it. But then again, if someone is using this to take temporary powers all the time, I would require them to take a permanent power to do so. After all, that's what their character is now all about. And if the explanation isn't reasonable, I will still veto it. A gunfighter using a resources roll to get a hold of a rifle with a "scope" stunt? Sure. A half-pixie exotic dancer? Not so much.
OMG that was great...thank you.
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I don't like the idea of using tags to gain temporary Powers. I think it's too easy, and that by letting people casually acquire 1-Refresh Powers it can easily unbalance the game. If you want a read a long-ass argument about that and other things, look here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35855.0.html).
In other words, you want the game to be broken in your favour.
Wizards absolutely should not be able to do more. D&D3 wizards became all-powerful because WotC screwed up. If you can make a similarly powerful wizard in DFRPG, it's because Evil Hat screwed up.
In theory, wizards are no more useful to the party than anyone else. This is true in both D&D and DFRPG. In DFRPG it's sometimes also true in practice, in D&D3 it really isn't.
Please. If you must drag D&D edition wars into this forum, come up with some better attacks. "A video game on paper" is such a lazy and meaningless insult.
Well it was just such an attempt and look a year or so later we were blessed with the MMO neverwinter. so its not so much a lazy and meaningless insult as a prediction a lot of people made the came true.
I understand they shouldn't be more powerful for game balance but I have never been able to get around the simple fact, that if magic were indeed real they/it would always overshadow everything else. So when I run my games I run with wizards and magic being the pinnacle of the game. I want my players to play wizards. If you want to play say a police girl with a gun and the ability to throw big men down that's fine, but the foes we will be playing against wont be big men that you can just throw down.
The Dresden files are about a wizard who has a bunch of hangers on that help him, but when the story is done it was the wizard who did the heavy lifting. Otherwise it wouldn't be called the Dresden Files, it might be called say SGT Murphy's chronicles. The roleplaying game allows for all types of characters to be made, but it is called the Dresden files because wizards are meant to be at the center of it. So I simply want to make sure the wizards are wizard enough for my game. Many people on these boards think the wizards are strong enough, I am not one of them. I have indeed been infected by the WOTC bug but I don't mind I think they should be mortals with the power of gods. That is my take on them. I have never understood why anyone would think that a man with a piece of metal with a pointy end could ever stand up to a man who controls the fundamental forces of the universe. It's not realistic fantasy.
Enough rant, I have enjoyed the many ideas as I am still learning the game. I am still trying to understand how to use such a flexible system. That in part may be my problem I am simply not familiar enough with the rules. Which is why I have been posting a lot of questions and at home running a lot of test situations to see how best to use the rules.
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One of the main problems with D&D 3.5 was that playing a non-spellcasting class was a monumentally poor decision. Wizards in that system can literally do anything. I really wish I was joking. The addition of a wizard to an adventuring party renders the rest of that adventuring party superfluous. The fighter? Summon a creature that does his job better and you don't need to feed it. The rogue? the open lock spell existed. Or you could just disintegrate the door.
Sanctaphrax is right- in theory, the wizard is just another party member. In practice, the wizard can do pretty much anything. the DFRPG is quite a bit better about it-Wizards in this game have a lot of weaknesses that 3.5 wizards don't, but it's still really easy to break a wizard without even trying.
All that being said, powerful wizards are not a bad thing. Being the most powerful member of your party is not a bad thing. Being the most powerful member and completely overshadowing everyone else? Is. To use your "man with a pointy piece of metal" metaphor, there are plenty of things he can do that a wizard can't. What if the party is challenged to a duel under the Accords, and Skill is chosen? The swordsman is abruptly the best member of the party to deal with this, and the wizard is pretty much useless in this situation. Your argument seems to be that the wizard can say "I summon an ancient spirit of battle into myself, giving myself the Mimic Form ability, which I use to get Fantastic Weapons. Oh, and I conjure a pointier piece of metal."
And that's sort of not okay.
TL;DR: My personal stance on this is that temporary tags can grant Refresh on a 1:1 ratio, but only for one scene. However, if you use them to effectively have powers that you aren't buying or try to D&D 3.5 it up, that's not so cool. To use a weird metaphor, every scene is a lock, and every member of the party is a key. Not every key fits every lock. The wizard shouldn't get to be a skeleton key just because he has Thaumaturgy.
EDIT: Clarity.
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One comment on the earlier discussion about the "difficulty" levels of thaumaturgy. Counting shifts has little to do with difficulty. Shifts beyond a relatively low number are accounted for by declarations - basically convincing the group that a given aspect sounds good and rolling a die (or paying a fate point but the die roll costs nothing). Any difficulty is purely in the group convincing part. ;) Shift's are not even a good representation of time consumed since declarations are often about something done in the past.
Regarding thaumaturgy being used to create a justification for powers, I'm ok with a permanent spell. However, an invoke (or tag) is still needed for each scene it's used in unless you spent refresh on it. Two reasons for that: one those are the rules (see the sidebar referenced earlier in the thread); and two is keeping the archetypes relatively balanced. Or at least no more unbalanced than they are in the text.
There are, of course, as many different ways to approach the issue as there are groups.
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Well it was just such an attempt and look a year or so later we were blessed with the MMO neverwinter. so its not so much a lazy and meaningless insult as a prediction a lot of people made the came true.
Plenty of other games have video game versions too, you know. Shadowrun, Vampire, D&D3, Magic, chess, solitaire...it doesn't say anything meaningful about the game itself.
I understand they shouldn't be more powerful for game balance but I have never been able to get around the simple fact, that if magic were indeed real they/it would always overshadow everything else.
What?
How the hell do you know what magic would be like if it were real?
There's really no way to guess something like that. You could go by what people actually believe magic can do, but...real magic would be kind of lame even if it actually worked.
So when I run my games I run with wizards and magic being the pinnacle of the game. I want my players to play wizards. If you want to play say a police girl with a gun and the ability to throw big men down that's fine, but the foes we will be playing against wont be big men that you can just throw down.
Then give the wizards more skill points and extra Refresh.
Skills and Refresh are the measure of power in this game. Two characters who are equal in those traits will be equal power-wise, if everything works as planned.
The Dresden files are about a wizard who has a bunch of hangers on that help him, but when the story is done it was the wizard who did the heavy lifting.
Harry's the main character, but he's nowhere near the strongest character. He's just in the right place at the right time.
In particular, I'd like to note that the Knights of the Cross make him look pretty weak until he departs from the Wizard Template. And even after that, they do some stuff he simply can't match.
I have never understood why anyone would think that a man with a piece of metal with a pointy end could ever stand up to a man who controls the fundamental forces of the universe. It's not realistic fantasy.
Realistic fantasy? What does that even mean?
Magic has no realistic power level. A magic system can top out at bending spoons, or it can give its weakest users the ability to destroy galaxies. Both are equally plausible.
If you want to make a game about how wizards are better than everyone else, play a high-powered game where all of the PCs cast spells.
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If you want to make a game about how wizards are better than everyone else, play a high-powered game where all of the PCs cast spells.
Like SDC. Actually, scratch that. The "weakest" character there still uses some magic, but probably not to the extent you're hoping for (and he still kicks tons of ass, by the by, usually without spells). The "strongest" character frequently doesn't use magic at all. Yes, the wizard in the group is badass, but not only a) is she middle of the road compared to the others but b) it really REALLY doesn't matter.
FATE is not about how wizards are better than everyone else. FATE is about telling a story. A story with a godlike protagonist who kills everyone is /boring/. And if all the protagonist have to do the same things or else some will get overshadowed, then FATE isn't doing its job. I mean, it's supposed to be a fun, cooperative game where everyone is equally participating.