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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Sanctaphrax on October 07, 2013, 08:17:40 PM
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Just looking at the PbP forum, it seems like a lot of people like to play with really powerful PCs. We've got plenty of Submerged games and a fair number of above-Submerged games, with not many games in the lower canon power levels and nothing at all below Feet In The Water.
I would have expected people to play at a wide variety of levels, but at least around here there's a definite preference for high-level play.
What's up with that?
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To quote Hick:
POWAH!! LIMITLESS POWAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!!!
That. It's fun being able to roll attacks off of a base 17.
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I like Feet in the water because I feel it gives room to improve and evolve. At the same time, I see the appeal of More Refresh because of the pace that a PbP game moves. It could be a Months and months in Real time to get even a single extra refresh.
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To quote Hick:
POWAH!! LIMITLESS POWAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!!!
Well, yes. I'll admit that i'm unusually megalomanical, for a swarm of bees.
But my mindset is that higher Refresh allows for a character that's much more fleshed out in what they can do, story-wise. Take Ozmadiel, my character in The Semi-Divine Comedy, which I think is the highest Refresh game ever run on this board, or most any board. I absolutely couldn't play a Submerged version of him. The character concept is too sharply limited by how much Refresh I can play with. I'd be trying to fit the sun/moon duality in with the spellcasting and a few social stunts, and it'd end up as hideous mishmash that wasn't good at anything in particular.
If I had to make him as a Submerged character, it would be Sponsored Magic/Building Blocks, done. And that's boring. That doesn't mechanically portray what he's capable of at all, to me. Because i've got about 25 Refresh to play with, that means I can do the whole Variable Abilities Sun/Moon Duality thing.
TL;DR: To me, higher refresh makes for more versatility both story wise and mechanics wise, and versatility is da bomb.
All that being said, Taran has a point. I like the occasional low power game, where i'll take one power and do cool stuff with it. One of my character concepts is just an assassin with Numerical Prodigy and a bow IoP who makes a living just by being Hawkeye. It works completely at Chest Deep, and it's really fun to play.
At the same time, I see the appeal of More Refresh because of the pace that a PbP game moves. It could be a Months and months in Real time to get even a single extra refresh.
*grumble* I think Taran is some kind of magical talisman. Every PbP he's in moves with the speed and urgency of an incontinent leopard.
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As the rulebook itself says, it's only at 8 or 9 refresh that characters can really progress beyond the basic available templates--that's where characters stop being "standard issue White Court Vampire" and start being, "Julio Malvora, vampire, matador, dancer." You have more room to maneuver, powers-wise, so you can build the character you really want.
Also, yes, rolling from absurd numbers is one of my group's favorite things (though in their case, it's usually because they're invoking or tagging a crapton of things. I once had a player roll a fire spell from 19 by blowing fate points on all of their aspects aside from the trouble--it was a very complicated situation).
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But my mindset is that higher Refresh allows for a character that's much more fleshed out in what they can do, story-wise. Take Ozmadiel, my character in The Semi-Divine Comedy, which I think is the highest Refresh game ever run on this board, or most any board. I absolutely couldn't play a Submerged version of him. The character concept is too sharply limited by how much Refresh I can play with. I'd be trying to fit the sun/moon duality in with the spellcasting and a few social stunts, and it'd end up as hideous mishmash that wasn't good at anything in particular.
For me, that's the point of playing a low refresh character. You don't try to play a character that's going to be exactly what you want. You play a character that's going to BECOME exactly what you want. I like playing low refresh games where the character is completely Green and makes lots of mistakes. I never feel he has to be optimized - in fact, I feel he should have holes in his abilities.
*grumble* I think Taran is some kind of magical talisman. Every PbP he's in moves with the speed and urgency of an incontinent leopard.
Ha, ha. I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. Do my games move fast? If so, my point still stands. Even in fast games it still takes a long time to earn Refresh in PbP.
I wonder if my magical talisman is cursed. A bunch of games I've been in fizzled before they reached any kind of conclusion.
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I see the appeal in both types of games, although in my experience DF playstyle changes somewhat at around Chest Deep. At this point, templates and rules that are not available at lower Refresh are suddenly viable, and plots tend to change as well. My lower Refresh games have been a lot more gritty, with the PCs mostly being underdogs that slip through the cracks. When Wizards, Vampires and Fey knights are on the table, they suddenly represent someone of influence in the supernatural world.
Currently, I'm more inclined to play higher refresh games, mostly because my last games were all Chest Deep or lower.
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For me, that's the point of playing a low refresh character. You don't try to play a character that's going to be exactly what you want. You play a character that's going to BECOME exactly what you want. I like playing low refresh games where the character is completely Green and makes lots of mistakes. I never feel he has to be optimized - in fact, I feel he should have holes in his abilities.
Yes! Precisely. For high-refresh games, I start at the end with the concept- "What do I want him to be able to do?" For low refresh games, I start at "This is his baseline thing, now what can he do with it?" The above Numerical Prodigy example is perfect, because I thought "What can a character with this Power do? Be a bloody excellent sniper, for one." and then it fleshes itself out from there.
Ha, ha. I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. Do my games move fast? If so, my point still stands. Even in fast games it still takes a long time to earn Refresh in PbP.
I wonder if my magical talisman is cursed. A bunch of games I've been in fizzled before they reached any kind of conclusion.
I'm pretty sure Montreal Mayhem updates at least twice a day, Rising Tides is off to a roaring start, and the Apollon Project is moving along again.
This is why i'm mad you didn't join TSDC. You're an excellent player and an excellent GM, along with some kind of magical power that keeps the games running on time. I can handle a mild curse.
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We started out at Chest-deep, as we didn't feel that the region of the US we were in justified it or attracted such critters. We've been playing almost every month, on average once a month for a year and have only NOW reached Fully-submerged. While the power's nice, the trip from Chest-deep was entertaining and interesting as we all wondered in just what direction we were going to take our characters.
That said, we're all glad we didn't start at lower levels or the spillover fire from Chicago would've eaten us alive.
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Huh. Not the answers I expected.
Maybe I'm just odd, but...I don't really see the appeal of large numbers. An accuracy 10 attack against defence 7 is identical to an accuracy 5 attack against defence 2, mathematically speaking. So what's the point?
And I've never had trouble making concepts "fit" into a power level either. Maybe because I don't easily get attached to characters...throwing out a concept and replacing it with another has never been a problem for me.
But I can see why, if the concept you have in mind is a powerful one, you'd be more inclined to start high in PbP. It really does move slowly, and people tend to be flaky online.
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I like big nums and I cannot lie!
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Maybe I'm just odd, but...I don't really see the appeal of large numbers. An accuracy 10 attack against defence 7 is identical to an accuracy 5 attack against defence 2, mathematically speaking. So what's the point?
Well... everyone likes to be an epic badass, don't they? 8)
Sure, these are the same mathematically. But they are VERY different, narratively! ;D
That Accuracy 5 shot was an impressive knife thrown from 25 feet, hitting the ghoul who was about to grab the child. The Accuracy 10 shot was thrown from 50 feet -- through a doorway that was being slammed shut! -- pinning the ghoul's hand to the wall. :-X
Or something, maybe my difficulties are off... :P
Point is, the high-numbers games allow for much more badassery, which is often fun.
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I'm pretty sure Montreal Mayhem updates at least twice a day, Rising Tides is off to a roaring start, and the Apollon Project is moving along again.
My secret is logging in as five different people and playing the game by myself ;)
Seriously, though, I do a lot of OOC chat. Most times I figure I might be unintentionally annoying people...but maybe it keeps things moving. It's probably more likely I'm getting lucky and ending up with a good group, overall.
This is why i'm mad you didn't join TSDC. You're an excellent player and an excellent GM, along with some kind of magical power that keeps the games running on time. I can handle a mild curse.
Thanks for the kind words. I'm pretty self-conscious as a GM so it's nice to hear that kind of feedback.
Edit: I also use Haru as a sounding board for a lot of ideas - so that definitely helps!
I actually don't remember when Semi-Divine Comedy was recruiting. I thought this game had been going on for a long, long time.
Well... everyone likes to be an epic badass, don't they? 8)
Sure, these are the same mathematically. But they are VERY different, narratively! ;D
That Accuracy 5 shot was an impressive knife thrown from 25 feet, hitting the ghoul who was about to grab the child. The Accuracy 10 shot was thrown from 50 feet -- through a doorway that was being slammed shut! -- pinning the ghoul's hand to the wall. :-X
Or something, maybe my difficulties are off... :P
Point is, the high-numbers games allow for much more badassery, which is often fun.
Yeah, at a certain point, the Ladder is kind of meaningless.
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Yeah, at a certain point, the Ladder is kind of meaningless.
Like when you have an at-will Stunt for levitating... ;)
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My secret is logging in as five different people and playing the game by myself ;)
Fiend! Why haven't I already thought of that?
I actually don't remember when Semi-Divine Comedy was recruiting. I thought this game had been going on for a long, long time.
It's probably still recruting. I'm fairly certain at least one guy flaked out. If you want to join, just post in the OOC thread and start bouncing concepts off of us. It's a 25 Refresh game, with an extra 5 refresh just for "waste" stuff like Marked by Power and Mana Static.
Yeah, at a certain point, the Ladder is kind of meaningless.
I had to come up with a ladder extension. It's buried in the OOC thread for EtA somewhere, and i'm pretty sure Sanctaphrax, who I now suspect of being an AI, reposted it.
Like when you have an at-will Stunt for levitating... ;)
*chorus of groans*
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I actually had a thread to try to gather the ladder adjectives. Sanctaphrax will find it, though.
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Hick Jr proposed the following ladder:
+18-Heroic
+17-Godlike
+16-Flawless
+15-Stylish
+14-Awesome
+13-Marvelous
+12-Crazy
+11-Superlative
+10-Ludicrous
+9-Amazing
A-hem.
This was at least partially inspired by Devil May Cry.
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Not to completely derail this thread, but I'd just redo the whole ladder from scratch. Things like Legendary and Epic should be up there with Heroic and Godlike. I'd also put Godlike as the highest difficulty.
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I was actually originally drawn to higher power games because it allows you to do stuff on the scale of what's happening in the recent books.
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Not to completely derail this thread, but I'd just redo the whole ladder from scratch. Things like Legendary and Epic should be up there with Heroic and Godlike. I'd also put Godlike as the highest difficulty.
I get asked why Heroic is above Godlike a lot. The answer is simple. Heroes impress me a lot more than gods. Harry is more impressive than Odin, to me.
A complete redo would probably require a little too much relearning for most of us. I'd be willing to take a crack at it, because it's basically just ten minutes with a thesaurus, but still.
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Looks like Hick beat me to posting the ladder.
Since it seems relevant: if you know who started a thread, you can find that thread by clicking on the Show Posts link in their profile and opening up the Topics section. Here's your Topics page. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;sa=topics;u=41935) You'll notice that the ladder thread is clearly displayed there.
The search function might be rubbish, but the forum has some other functions that can substitute for it quite well.
I was actually originally drawn to higher power games because it allows you to do stuff on the scale of what's happening in the recent books.
That's more what I was expecting people to say. The books have gotten pretty out of hand, power-wise.
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That's more what I was expecting people to say. The books have gotten pretty out of hand, power-wise.
What do you mean by that?
Also, for my part, I prefer high-power games because more power means more options, and more options makes for a better story, at least in the context of a RPG. A co-operative RPG, to boot.
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The books have gone from supernatural detective stuff (which was already pretty high-level by DFRPG standards) to preventing multiple apocalypses and killing gods. And Harry has acquired all kinds of upgrades along the way.
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His Refresh sort of doubled after becoming Winter Knight.
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The books have gone from supernatural detective stuff (which was already pretty high-level by DFRPG standards) to preventing multiple apocalypses and killing gods. And Harry has acquired all kinds of upgrades along the way.
I see.
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For me, that's the point of playing a low refresh character. You don't try to play a character that's going to be exactly what you want. You play a character that's going to BECOME exactly what you want.
I'm okay with starting with a lower refresh and a character who will grow into what I want him to be, as long as the growth happens at a decent pace. If you're using the pace of receiving refresh points that the rules suggest, it's pretty slow, especially in a group like ours that only plays for about 3 hours every two weeks. If we ever want to get a chance to be more powerful, we have to either start higher, or advance faster.
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I try to focus more on the concept than the actual mechanics. For example-
Concept- Half-Demon Ouranomancer (space control for those not versed in latin roots or greek myth) who uses a sword to focus his abilities.
Build at Chest Deep:
Incite Effect (Ouranomancy, with Weapons)(Range, Physical, Area) [-4]
IoP: Space Sword [+2]
Spatial Control: Adds Potent, Selective, and Defensive trappings to Incite Effect. [-3]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
The Catch [+3] is holy objects.
Build at Snorkeling (13 Refresh):
Incite Effect (Ouranomancy, with Weapons)(Range, Physical, Area, Potent, Selective, Defensive) [-7]
IoP: Space Sword [+2]
Warpcutter: As All Creatures are Equal Before God. [-3]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
The Catch [+3] is holy objects.
Numerical Prodigy [-3]
Build at In A Submarine:
Incite Effect (Ouranomancy/Chronomancy, with Weapons)(Range, Physical, Potent, Defensive, Area, Selective, Persistent) [-8]
IoP: Space Sword [+2]
Warpcutter: As All Creatures are Equal Before God. [-3]
Teleportation (Rapid) [-3]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
The Catch [+3] is holy objects.
Precognition [-2]
Numerical Prodigy [-3]
I'd be happy to play any of those. I keep at least ten concepts like that ("half-demon ouranomancer, empathomancer, half-metal elemental, emissary of Pestilence, astromancer dragon scion", etc) just floating around in a word doc on my computer in case i happen to need speedy inspiration.
Edit: It's possible I wasn't clear, so i'll try to make my point here- All of the above builds are capable of basically the same thing (ouranomancy, which is the concept), but their only real difference is how it's done or how mechanically powerful it is. The enjoyment for me comes out of playing a powerful concept, not a powerful build.
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People have mentioned most of the point/counterpoint to this.
I agree that large numbers are the same as small numbers. - Sanctaphrax
I also agree that you need 2 to 5 more refresh than a basic character to customize it properly with stunts or powers ( to go beyond the template). - Mr. Death
Both points are valid.
I think the issue is less being uber - and more "Will I ever get there if I don't start there?"
I see a point in growing a character. It is one of my favorite things to do. However, I see stagnation as a problem if you are too low power. You never grow...you want to do the fun stuff from the start. If growth is fast or at least steady. This is less of an issue.
So for a one shot game or a PbP game...I'd favor high level. In a game that gets played regularly with room to grow. I'd favor low power.
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People have mentioned most of the point/counterpoint to this.
I agree that large numbers are the same as small numbers. - Sanctaphrax
I also agree that you need 2 to 5 more refresh than a basic character to customize it properly with stunts or powers ( to go beyond the template). - Mr. Death
Both points are valid.
I think the issue is less being uber - and more "Will I ever get there if I don't start there?"
I see a point in growing a character. It is one of my favorite things to do. However, I see stagnation as a problem if you are too low power. You never grow...you want to do the fun stuff from the start. If growth is fast or at least steady. This is less of an issue.
So for a one shot game or a PbP game...I'd favor high level. In a game that gets played regularly with room to grow. I'd favor low power.
I think this is the point I was trying to get across. Silverblaze just said it better.
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Oh, hey, Silverblaze. Long time no see.
What have you been up to?
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Lots of work. Being responsible sucks.
Fair bit less gaming as a result. Less gaming = less need for gaming forums.
Played a pretty long DFRPG game as detailed in another thread.
Seriously, that game got nutty high powered.