I guess I'd never really seen the "disrupt the natural order" part of this law before, which is a bit dense of me.
I have to agree that it has more to do with intention here. If there is a ghost already present no one could blame a magic practitioner for working with them but to call up a spirit and force them to stay seems to be what this law was more about. If having contact with the dead was out of line then the guy who spoke to the dead that Harry got his information from in Dead Beat (I don't remember his name and I don't have the books handy) would be in trouble all the time. He also calls the dead but they come if they are willing - I didn't get the impression that he forces them back to answer questions.
Although I don't know how to fit this law in with the Bob from the TV series other than to say the White council seems to allow the breaking of the laws under curtain curcumstances for themselves alone.
For the Laws that apply to Supernatural Beings, see the Unselee Accords.
This includes Wizards, Dark Wizards, Sorcerers - and even Warlocks.
Although I don't know how to fit this law in with the Bob from the TV series other than to say the White council seems to allow the breaking of the laws under curtain curcumstances for themselves alone.
Remember that the Laws apply on in regards to Mortals.
Bob is an Air Spirit from the NeverNever, residing in a skull. He was never Human.
Kristine was asking about Bob in the TV show who was the Spirit of a Wizard Sealed into a skull (presuably his own) only answers I have to this are.
1. TV reality is slightly diferent then Book or rpg reality.
2. This happened hundreds of years ago laws could have been diferent.
3. Could have been the Blackstaff that did it. (Every time something illegal happened it was the black staff. Yah that's it.)
TV canon is VERY different from the book reality, and the RPG is solidly based in the bookverse.
So an untrained Wizard could be a Sorcerer?From my understanding, Harry considered them to be slightly more powerful then 'minor talents'
Would the Alphas be considered Sorcerers because they have learned the one spell? or just minor talents?
Warlock means "oathbreaker" just tossing that out thereThat's the great thing about words, see. Their meaning keeps changing.
Quote from: cephis on Today at 12:32:54 PMThat's not really a far stretch, in a way, someone who has gone to the dark side has broken their oath to follow the Laws. Even if it's an unspoken oath. I can see how they might get from point A to point B.
Warlock means "oathbreaker" just tossing that out there
That's the great thing about words, see. Their meaning keeps changing.
In the Dresdenverse, Warlock is a "Shop term" for Sorcerer/Wizard/Witch and those "Have nots" of the Magical Community (the Lesser/Least powered) that have fallen to "the Dark Side".
If no one can confirm who you really are, then you have no existance - in any 'legal' sense. Both for the Mundane and the Supernatural Worlds.
The Fifth Law of Magic is: Never reach beyond the borders of life.
for the topic at hand - I think it would be advantageous for a "new born Practitioner" to be known by the White Council so they can be trained and if a practitioner slips up and fractures one of the laws then, of course, it is more of an advantage to be unknown. I wonder if Molly had not had any interaction with a wizard if she would have ever been caught. How many patients in jails or asylums (in the Dresdenverse) are accidental victims of practitioners who were never caught or who don't even know they did anything wrong..? Some game ideas there.
Other methods might also be used, like Soulgazing, to determine if the person is still 'redeemable' - but that in most cases by the time these perps were caught, it was already too late. "Earlier Detection and Aid" is what Dresden was talking about...This is not to say that anyone never gets away with breaking one of the Laws, heck even in real life, C.S.I. etc, don't always get the perpetrator.
Other methods might also be used, like Soulgazing, to determine if the person is still 'redeemable' - but that in most cases by the time these perps were caught, it was already too late.
If you watch things like Cold Case Files or The First 24 there seem to be quite a few cases that are never solved. If someone commits a crime and moves to another area and doesn't do it again then it is hard to figure out who did what. Of course in a game setting, if doing the wrong thing leaves a mark on the perp it could be seen but not necessarily connected to the victim.
I got the impression (possibly erronious) that the white Council did not give out fines or warnings, you were either guilty and executed or innocent and let go - possibly watched (or in the one-in-a-million chance that someone on the council wants to vouch for you - put under the Doom) So if you do something wrong you might as well run for your life.
Self defence is not forgivable either - your still guilty and executed...
Self defense is the only exception – or our dears, Harry and Molly, would not be alive today.
I got the impression (possibly erronious) that the white Council did not give out fines or warnings, you were either guilty and executed or innocent and let go - possibly watched (or in the one-in-a-million chance that someone on the council wants to vouch for you - put under the Doom) So if you do something wrong you might as well run for your life.
This was not how I saw it. The Wardens just showed up, and gave the speech: “These are the Laws. Don’t break them, ever. The penalty is death.” Notice how there is no offer to Aid them, or Train them.
Remember that we only have one example of someone “Outrunning the Law” – Elaine.
And she has become very much like Harry – by using her powers to help protect people.
I love the fact that Harry is helping Elaine to build a new network for all the Lesser Talents to use.
Allows them to report things that they have no hope of dealing with themselves: the information still gets back to a Council Member- and the reporting party never has to meet one of those scary Wardens.
That particular scene has caused some debate on the boards before. The concensus seemed, IIRC, to be that real distinction is that when Harry did his trick, he was simply giving power to what was already present (thanks to the Nightmare) with his own energies, whereas necromancers bring raise ghosts from slumber, and empower them with the energies drawn from death. The drawing on death, not life, seemed to give a very different feel to the magic in Dead Beat. Perhaps Harry managed to do his bit only because the bit that really required necromantic energies had already been done for him. Even then, not that the GP ghosts had to make bodies for themselves in order to harm the living whereas the spectres raised by Cowl could do so while remaining incorporeal.