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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Hick Jr on August 10, 2013, 05:51:10 AM

Title: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Hick Jr on August 10, 2013, 05:51:10 AM
Exactly how are people modeling Intellectus, beyond a Supernatural Sense? The particular character i'm writing has it regarding biology and anatomy, even of supernatural life-forms. I was thinking of a Martial Artist-esque thing where he can make Declarations regarding people's bodies, or something like the Doctor stunt. Besides those, i'd appreciate some input on where I should go with this.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 10, 2013, 06:26:21 AM
I think those options all sound good. Declarations, a bonus to knowledge rolls, a Supernatural Sense...any of those could work.

Though now that I think about it, Intellectus is supposed to be a big deal. Maybe take all three options together, then.

Actually, combining those options might make for a decent Intellectus custom Power.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Hick Jr on August 10, 2013, 06:55:41 AM
Hmm. Good idea. Something like this?

INTELLECTUS [-?]
Description:In one specific sphere of knowledge or influence, you are all-knowing. Any and all information within that sphere is available to you at all times.
Skills Affected:Lore
Effects:
All-Knowing: You can make assessments and declarations regarding your sphere of influence using your Lore+1.
In addition, you automatically succeed as if you had rolled a +4 on any knowledge roll regarding your sphere of influence.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Todjaeger on August 10, 2013, 07:31:36 AM
The first question which comes to mind is what actually has Intellectus?

From the novels, certain ancient genus loci might develop a limited Intellectus confined to knowledge and awareness within the confines of their location.  Otherwise certain powerful entities, specifically some at the top of the scale of the supernatural heavyweights (archangels, Mother Summer & Mother Winter...) have it.

The reason I bring that up, is that seems to suggest that Intellectus is really more a plot level device, as opposed to a supernatural power.  I certainly wouldn't let a player develop or have Intellectus, though I might allow them to bind themselves to an entity which has a limited form of it.

Cold Days spoiler below:
(click to show/hide)
 

One of the things which should be appearing in the upcoming Paranet Papers are rules for creating golems or constructs like the Wardhounds.  Based off the hints I've gotten so far, I'm working on adapting them to allow for the creation of a "Jarvis"-like programmed intelligence which could be built into a Ward.

-Cheers 
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Hick Jr on August 10, 2013, 08:20:45 AM
The character in question is the person currently bearing the mantle of one of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Specifically, Pestilence. Because of their Biblical origin, i'm currently writing the DV Horsemen as demi-angelic beings, with Pestilence specifically being the Angel of Life. He's the embodiment of nasty things like bacterium and vermin because both of those outnumber every other type of life by over a billion to one. So, in essence, the character is bound to a larger supernatural entity in the same way that Harry is bound to Demonreach.

Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 10, 2013, 09:12:43 PM
Harry has intellectus, so obviously it's a PC-appropriate ability.

Especially since it's really not that powerful when it's that limited. I'd much rather have Evocation than complete knowledge of Demonreach's geography.

Hmm. Good idea. Something like this?

INTELLECTUS [-?]
Description:In one specific sphere of knowledge or influence, you are all-knowing. Any and all information within that sphere is available to you at all times.
Skills Affected:Lore
Effects:
All-Knowing: You can make assessments and declarations regarding your sphere of influence using your Lore+1.
In addition, you automatically succeed as if you had rolled a +4 on any knowledge roll regarding your sphere of influence.

It's a start.

I'm not sure I'd want to link to knowledge skills like that, though. And I think it might deserve a little more oomph.

I'll post my take later today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Todjaeger on August 11, 2013, 03:50:58 AM
Harry has intellectus, so obviously it's a PC-appropriate ability.

Especially since it's really not that powerful when it's that limited. I'd much rather have Evocation than complete knowledge of Demonreach's geography.

It's a start.

I'm not sure I'd want to link to knowledge skills like that, though. And I think it might deserve a little more oomph.

I'll post my take later today or tomorrow.

Actually Harry doesn't have Intellectus

Another Cold Days spoiler
(click to show/hide)

Lastly, when Harry casts the sanctum invocation in Turn Coat and asks Morgan questions about some of the after effects since he's know getting all sorts of useful (albeit minor) information about the island and Morgan first mentions the possibility of Intellectus, Morgan makes a comment to the effect that the genus loci must be absolutely ancient to have developed Intellectus.  Again implying that it isn't Harry that has it, but the entity itself.

-Cheers
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: narphoenix on August 11, 2013, 04:07:50 AM
Harry has intellectus, so obviously it's a PC-appropriate ability.

Especially since it's really not that powerful when it's that limited. I'd much rather have Evocation than complete knowledge of Demonreach's geography.

It's a start.

I'm not sure I'd want to link to knowledge skills like that, though. And I think it might deserve a little more oomph.

I'll post my take later today or tomorrow.

Harry's Intellectus specifically is, I think, best modeled by the Demense power.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 11, 2013, 06:29:09 AM
I don't think Demesne fits too well. Demesne lets you warp the physical structure of your domain to create Aspects or to attack. Harry can't really change the shape of Demonreach much.

Though he did pull one neat trick in Turn Coat, IIRC. Moving a bunch of water around to destabilize an area or something. That could have been a Demesne roll, or an application of Thaumaturgy, or a social roll to manipulate the guardian spirit. Or maybe something else.

Actually Harry doesn't have Intellectus...

Sure he does. But it only applies to the geographical details of Demonreach, not to stuff like the prison beneath it. And he gets it from the guardian spirit, which he can be cut off from by a circle.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: narphoenix on August 11, 2013, 12:14:40 PM
Quote from: Your Story
Home Turf. You have an immense amount of control over the features of your demesne; the “local reality” bends to your will. You automatically succeed at any declarations about
the physical form of your demesne, and in combat you can roll Discipline to place scene d aspects in the demesne. You can even roll your Discipline as a physical attack against intruders, using the nature of the Nevernever
to harm opponents.

The "automatic declaration success" could easily be narratively justified as Intellectus. He does attack, as you pointed out, which Demense lets you do. Shoe fits.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 11, 2013, 10:02:14 PM
No it doesn't.

That trick wasn't an attack. Might have been a maneuver and a tag.

And Harry can't casually turn Demonreach into a mountain made of solid gold, which he could do if he had Demesne. He can't beat people to death in personal combat using Demonreach's dirt and trees and stuff as his weapon, either.

You might be able to hack Demesne to get around those issues, but I don't see much point.

Demesne's mechanics don't offer anything especially interesting to work with. And depending on how you read them they might offer you an infinite supply of free tags. So it'd be easier to hack Martial Artist, or to start from scratch.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: narphoenix on August 11, 2013, 11:02:58 PM
If you can annihilate an entire army with a thought, it's pretty safe to say that you're attacking. And Harry doesn't need to turn Demonreach into solid gold to manuever/attack. He can just say "Ooh look. A nail on the ground. Goodbye, Fix."
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 12, 2013, 05:51:00 AM
Wiping out armies doesn't necessarily require an attack. In fact, I'd expect maneuvers to be used for that sort of thing more often.

And regardless of what Harry needs to do, he clearly can't control Demonreach as effectively as he could with Demesne.

That aside, I promised a take on Intellectus. It's loosely based on Hick Jr's. Here goes:

INTELLECTUS [-varies]
Description: In one specific sphere, you are all-knowing. Any and all information within that sphere is available to you at all times; when you think of a question, you immediately know the answer.
Musts: You must select a sphere of knowledge when you take this Power. Your choice affects the cost of this Power. Something mostly-useless, like the geography of one island that the game occasionally visits, gives a cost of 1 Refresh. Something that's on the narrow side for a stunt, like how to hurt someone, gives a cost of 2 Refresh. Something that's on the broad side for a stunt, like human biology and anatomy, gives a cost of 3 Refresh. Something broad, like earth and stone, gives a cost of 4 Refresh. Extremely broad spheres, like everything ever written down, can give higher costs.
Skills Affected: None
Effects:
All-Knowing. When determining your knowledge or awareness of things within your sphere, you receive the following benefits. Your skills are treated as though they were at your skill cap. You always roll +4. You suffer no penalty when attempting to know or notice things that have been hidden, even if there's no mundane way for anyone to discover those things in your situation. You never need a library, and you can perform research just by asking yourself mental questions. If you don't immediately know or notice something it's just because you didn't ask yourself the right question.
Knowing Every Detail. You may make Declarations related to your sphere with your skill cap +2. These Declarations are not associated with any skill, and absolutely every fact or detail within your sphere is fair game.

I'm pretty happy with Knowing Every Detail, but I'm not thrilled with the Power as a whole. Seems too wordy, and rather clunky.

Maybe I should just make All-Knowing into difficulty-ignoring auto-success.

Opinions and suggestions would be appreciated. And if someone can do better, I encourage them to do so.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Hick Jr on August 12, 2013, 06:20:16 AM
I might treat "auto-success, treat as if +4 was rolled and it super succeeds" as a -1 upgrade.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Quantus on August 12, 2013, 03:13:08 PM
FWIW there do exist other, more targeted/limited instances of Intellectus int he books.  Specifically, Shagnasty is supposed to have a sort of Intellectus when it comes to torture:

Quote
Q:  How and why did the skinwalker take Thomas?
A:  Thomas was distracted by Binder’s minions and the skinwalker saw the opportunity.  It knew that Thomas is important to Harry, but not necessarily that Thomas is Harry’s brother.  The skinwalker exists in more than one dimension at a time and it has its own kind of intellectus when it comes to evil – it knows what will hurt you and scare you, even though it may not really know why.  It took Thomas because he knew it would hurt and scare Harry.  How it tortured Thomas wasn’t part of any direction it was given to turn Thomas back into a monster, it was done because the skinwalker knew what would hurt Thomas and torment him, more than just physically.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 12, 2013, 09:10:54 PM
I might treat "auto-success, treat as if +4 was rolled and it super succeeds" as a -1 upgrade.

Not sure what you mean by that.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Hick Jr on August 12, 2013, 09:17:26 PM
Quote
Maybe I should just make All-Knowing into difficulty-ignoring auto-success.

That could be a -1 Refresh upgrade within the power.


Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Troy on August 13, 2013, 08:35:01 PM




Out of curiosity: What's Intellectus?
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: PirateJack on August 13, 2013, 09:22:21 PM
Read Turn Coat and you'll find out.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: UmbraLux on August 13, 2013, 09:55:16 PM
Out of curiosity: What's Intellectus?
It's discussed on YS292 in the Places of Power section.  In brief, it's the ability to simply know everything about a place. 
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Hick Jr on August 13, 2013, 11:24:45 PM
I'm going to type out the whole thing. I'm not incredibly sure about the legality of this, so if this could get me hauled off i'd appreciate a heads-up.

From Turn Coat (it's sort of spoilery)

(click to show/hide)

Actual unlimited intellectus is something a player really shouldn't have. The power we're working on is for limited intellectus- Harry's, for example, does not extend past Demonreach. The character that I intend to use this on has intellectus regarding biology and anatomy. The limitation of it is that you need to ask the right questions to get good answers- sort of like the GIGO principle.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 14, 2013, 12:57:22 AM
Anyone have any further thoughts on Intellectus mechanics?

I'm not really happy with either my take or Hick's.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Hick Jr on August 14, 2013, 01:06:12 AM
The description of Intellectus on pg 292 of Your Story reccomends just reducing the difficulty to zero. Also, it's rooted in the Lore skill, but I like the idea of it just being the skill cap.

Some crossover with the Inexplicable Knowledge power might be warranted.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: Quantus on August 14, 2013, 12:50:43 PM
Well, it really all depends on what the PC's sphere of influence is going to be, I think.  We have two examples of confirmed Intellectus from the novels:  Harry on Demonreach, and Shagnasty causing fear and pain.  Shaggy's is essentially just knowing the best way to do it without knowing why, and so Inexplicable Knowledge seems to cover it fairly well, but that is the only one I think you can model purely on Knowledge.  Harry's style is a much bigger powerup, limited only by the geographic location.  He has used it for widespread knowledge, but not perfect knowledge (had difficulty telling different people apart and was able to get overloaded when enough people were all fighting on the island at the same time), but it also increased his movement to the point were he outdistanced Wampires, and gave him perfect aim with some fireball spells.  Now we're talking about a serious boost to combat effectiveness, so the balance of it can be somewhat fragile.

In the case of this Anatomy/biology Intellectus, you'd need to keep in mind that it is a very limited scope but mobile ability, which makes it nearly the opposite of Harry's style of intellectus.  I would say auto-successes on knowledge would work fine, but you'll want to establish boundaries very clearly.  The PC could tell instantly that somebody is poisoned for example, and be able to tell exactly what its doing to the body and how fast and stuff, but would he be able to tell you that there is a rare herb that only grows on the highest slopes of the Andes that will cure it?  Probably not, even if he could easily draw you out the complex molecule that would accomplish it and tell you exactly how it would interact with the infected cells.  In combat, Id say his attacks could do more damage by virtue of knowing precisely where to strike, and he could probably pull out some cool and unusual effects with acupressure type stuff, but just because he knows exactly were to strike to do the most damage doesnt make him any better at actually placing the bullet there if he still sucks with guns, for example.
Title: Re: Modeling intellectus?
Post by: vultur on August 15, 2013, 02:53:36 AM
If you can annihilate an entire army with a thought, it's pretty safe to say that you're attacking. And Harry doesn't need to turn Demonreach into solid gold to manuever/attack. He can just say "Ooh look. A nail on the ground. Goodbye, Fix."

When did Harry annihilate an army with a thought using intellectus (or anything else)?

He asked the island spirit to withdraw the water from the trees on the island, causing their branches to break and drop the spider critters... but it wasn't THAT impressive.

Also, I don't think that's exactly an application of intellectus, or of Harry's powers at all (beyond being able to talk to the spirit in the first place). I think that was actually the Demonreach spirit's action, Harry just asked him to do it.