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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Cadd on July 21, 2013, 11:18:36 PM

Title: Pure illusion power?
Post by: Cadd on July 21, 2013, 11:18:36 PM
Looking through the Custom Power master list, I couldn't actually find a power that lets you produce pure illusory images.

What I'm after here doesn't really fit into my reading of Glamours, which is why I ask.
It's not a matter of making something that exists look like something else (Seemings) nor is it make something "real-ish" out of ectoplasm (True Seemings), but pure sensory trickery, maybe even only visual or audio-visual.

(click to show/hide)
How would you price the ability to create that kind of illusions? It wouldn't let you veil anything, though you could of course create a "shell" of illusion to hide you behind. Is it worth similar to Glamour (so -2), since you trade Veiling for a greater freedom in what kind of illusions you could make?

The character this is for is an Emissary of Power for Cerberus that has grown fond of psychological warfare. He currently has Incite Emotion (Fear; At range, Lasting emotion) and was thinking about something like this to enhance the intimidation factor (a pack of angry dogs or 3-4 gunmen looking down their sights at someone tend to make them stop and reconsider) and also be able to create confusion.
Title: Re: Pure illusion power?
Post by: Haru on July 21, 2013, 11:31:59 PM
Quote from: Cadd on July 21, 2013, 11:18:36 PM
It wouldn't let you veil anything, though you could of course create a "shell" of illusion to hide you behind.
If it walks like a duck...
The thing is, what does it do if not shield you from sight? Are you looking for a power that is able to create something like half translucent images of things? Mirages more than illusions, sort of?
I could see a power like that be a -1 power, but only if it allows you to create maneuvers.

However, that's sort of tricky. An attack in Fate is not always an attack as such. If you put the image of a clown over yourself against someone that is seriously afraid of clowns, that could certainly be an attack, and if the power doesn't allow it, then I feel it is sort of weird.

I think I would stick with Glamours and just rewrite it a bit. You can only create images, sounds, maybe smells and tastes, but nothing tangible. 2 refresh sounds fine to me there, and you can use it to do pretty much anything you like.

Or you can always go for channeling (Illusions).
Title: Re: Pure illusion power?
Post by: Cadd on July 22, 2013, 12:42:45 AM
The part about veils vs illusion covering is really a minor part of the equation, but I'd definitely separate what this would be able to do from what Veils (from the Glamour power, not spellcasting) can do. This wouldn't really be able to make people not notice you walking around. It could of course obscure identity, but not make you invisible.

Like the example described, what I want the power to be able to do is create the sound and look of something that just isn't there. Such as copying oneself 3 or 4 times, to make it difficult to hit the right one, or creating the image of a menacing thug for backup, or making it look like there's a fence blocking the alleyway. All of these cases, what is perceived simply isn't there, it's just illusion.

I think using the spellcasting rules for this (the Channeling option) is making it needlessly complicated. I'm leaning more towards a re-write of glamours myself. I'll see what I can put together tomorrow, when I'm not falling asleep at the computer :p
Title: Re: Pure illusion power?
Post by: Haru on July 22, 2013, 12:54:46 AM
Quote from: Cadd on July 22, 2013, 12:42:45 AM
Like the example described, what I want the power to be able to do is create the sound and look of something that just isn't there. Such as copying oneself 3 or 4 times, to make it difficult to hit the right one, or creating the image of a menacing thug for backup, or making it look like there's a fence blocking the alleyway. All of these cases, what is perceived simply isn't there, it's just illusion.
Copying yourself to be harder to hit is definitely a block, that's quite simple.

The thug could be a maneuver to tag on an intimidation attack. Or an intimidation attack itself, using the power.

The fence could be many things, too. Easiest, it is a block. Just because it isn't real doesn't mean someone would not be stopped by it, or redirect his course, because he just doesn't have time to test it out while fleeing. Insubstantial or not, the fence blocks his escape. Or it can be done as a maneuver and help you on the pursuit.

It helps if you think about the things you want to do in terms of their impact on the story, not in terms of what a character would be physically doing. I could put up a block using intimidate, and all I am doing is sitting at my desk, raising an eyebrow. But I am attempting to intimidate my opponent so he can't do anything. Keeping someone from doing something in mechanical terms is a block, so that's what I'm doing. Of course, the same gesture can be an attack to make my opponent afraid of me in a social conflict.

The power could merely be a way o substitute deceit for a variety of skills in a variety of situations. Then again, that's what Glamours does as well. A bit less so, maybe, but since you are taking out veils, that should equal things out well and good.
Title: Re: Pure illusion power?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 22, 2013, 01:44:05 AM
Incite Effect could do it.
Title: Re: Pure illusion power?
Post by: bobjob on July 22, 2013, 02:00:19 AM
Quote from: Haru on July 22, 2013, 12:54:46 AM
Copying yourself to be harder to hit is definitely a block, that's quite simple.

The thug could be a maneuver to tag on an intimidation attack. Or an intimidation attack itself, using the power.

The fence could be many things, too. Easiest, it is a block. Just because it isn't real doesn't mean someone would not be stopped by it, or redirect his course, because he just doesn't have time to test it out while fleeing. Insubstantial or not, the fence blocks his escape. Or it can be done as a maneuver and help you on the pursuit.

It helps if you think about the things you want to do in terms of their impact on the story, not in terms of what a character would be physically doing. I could put up a block using intimidate, and all I am doing is sitting at my desk, raising an eyebrow. But I am attempting to intimidate my opponent so he can't do anything. Keeping someone from doing something in mechanical terms is a block, so that's what I'm doing. Of course, the same gesture can be an attack to make my opponent afraid of me in a social conflict.

The power could merely be a way o substitute deceit for a variety of skills in a variety of situations. Then again, that's what Glamours does as well. A bit less so, maybe, but since you are taking out veils, that should equal things out well and good.

I would adjudicate this as a block using spirit magic or any applicable evothaum. All it is mechanically is a block vs attack. It doesn't matter mechanically whether it's Harry's dome shield or illusory copies of yourself. The effect is still the same.
Title: Re: Pure illusion power?
Post by: blackstaff67 on July 22, 2013, 03:03:56 AM
Seconded.  I'd apply Occam's Razor and simply call it an application of Spirit element.
Title: Re: Pure illusion power?
Post by: Hick Jr on July 22, 2013, 03:11:02 AM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on July 22, 2013, 01:44:05 AM
Incite Effect could do it.
Ninja'd. Incite Effect is probably what you're looking for.
Title: Re: Pure illusion power?
Post by: Cadd on July 22, 2013, 11:59:59 AM
Thank you all! Incite Effect is probably just what I'm looking for, since he already has the book version of Incite Emotion, with At Range and Lasting upgrades, so translating this to Incite Effect would be something like:
Am I reading Incite Effect correctly?

Or maybe just drop the Incite Effect: Fear part, and just achieve the same scare-tactic with the illusions?


Regarding illusions as application of Spirit Evocation - of course that's possible, but actual spellcasting is simply not fitting for the character concept, which is why I was looking at retooling Glamours instead.
Title: Re: Pure illusion power?
Post by: bobjob on July 22, 2013, 03:11:54 PM
Then I third or fourth Incite Effect. I used it for anNPC who was not Fey but could create illusions that damaged people's minds (the son of a trickster god). Works very well.
Title: Re: Pure illusion power?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 22, 2013, 06:27:15 PM
Quote from: Cadd on July 22, 2013, 11:59:59 AM
Thank you all! Incite Effect is probably just what I'm looking for, since he already has the book version of Incite Emotion, with At Range and Lasting upgrades, so translating this to Incite Effect would be something like:
  • Incite Effect (Fear, skill used: Intimidation)
    • At Range
    • Incite Mental Effect
    • Incite Additional Effect: Illusions (Skill used: Intimidation or Deceit, depending on if scaring or creating confusion)
Am I reading Incite Effect correctly?

Pretty much. Technically you're only supposed to use one skill per effect, but it really doesn't matter.

Quote from: Cadd on July 22, 2013, 11:59:59 AM
Or maybe just drop the Incite Effect: Fear part, and just achieve the same scare-tactic with the illusions?

That could also work.

The point at which an effect becomes broad enough that you should have to purchase Incite Additional Effect to cover all of it is up to the GM.

So whether "illusions that can terrify people" is a valid element is up to the GM. I'd allow it, but I can see someone else rejecting it on the grounds that it's better than plain old Incite Fear.
Title: Re: Pure illusion power?
Post by: Mr. Death on July 23, 2013, 02:28:07 PM
Quote from: Cadd on July 21, 2013, 11:18:36 PM
(click to show/hide)
How would you price the ability to create that kind of illusions? It wouldn't let you veil anything, though you could of course create a "shell" of illusion to hide you behind. Is it worth similar to Glamour (so -2), since you trade Veiling for a greater freedom in what kind of illusions you could make?
Point of fact, here--if that's your inspiration, it does include several veils, one around the caster, and another around the motorcycle that gets "thrown". I honestly don't see why glamours and/or spirit evocation wouldn't work for this, and it seems simplest to just use those.
Title: Re: Pure illusion power?
Post by: Cadd on July 23, 2013, 03:45:42 PM
Yes, that scene does include the use of veils. That was however not what I pointed to for examples of what I player wants to do.
Spirit Evocation could do it, it's what is being used in that scene, but as I said in my last post, spellcasting just doesn't jive with the character concept.

The reason I'm not just immediately going with Glamours is that my reading of the power in YS simply does not allow for what the player wants. I read Glamours to be able to do two things:

The player wants to create illusions completely independently of actual physical objects, like the evocation illusions, just without using the spellcasting rules.
Title: Re: Pure illusion power?
Post by: Mr. Death on July 23, 2013, 06:42:55 PM
Even if it's not "really" spellcasting, you could still use the spellcasting rules for it.

That said, I personally read Glamours as broader--I have a PC in one of my games that uses it for illusions (you could easily read the "cause someone or something to appear to be other than what it is" as "cause nothing to appear to be something"). It serves the same purpose as a veil--blocking/confusing perception--so I don't see it as being more than the power's intended to be.
Title: Re: Pure illusion power?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 23, 2013, 09:25:16 PM
It's possible to use spellcasting Powers for abilities other than actual spellcasting, but there are some challenges involved. The main one is that spellcasting Powers use foci, which aren't appropriate for most non-spellcasters.

So it's usually easier just to use some other Power.