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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Taran on May 15, 2013, 10:25:30 PM
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I understand that invoking an aspect can add +2 to controling a spell but can I use it to add to the Power of a spell?
Example:
Scene aspect: Large Campfire
Conviction =4
Discipline =4
Stress boxes 0000
I want to do a zone-wide explosion
I want to make it a weapon 4 attack.
Therefore my total Power is 6
I cast it and now my stress boxes look like this 00X0 (assuming I control it)
Could I have tagged the campfire (to increase the power of the spell)?
Basically I'd cast a Power 4 spell X000
but have to control 6 shifts of power
My impression has been that any aspect can boost power (not just consequences). This would allow you to boost spells beyond what you might normally be able to (without actually taking a consequence).
Now that I look at it, though, that gives a lot of advantage to spellcasters who have high discipline...
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With power in Evocation, technically speaking, can't you draw as much power as you feel like taking stress for by default? The invoke on control is there so that you can draw and take stress/consquences for big ass spells then control said big ass spells. At least how I've taken it.
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If you'd have asked not too long ago, I'd have said no.
But that was then.
Now I think that, as long as the aspect in question makes sense to boost that particular application of the spell, go for it. Or in your case, I'd probably allow you to invoke an appropriate aspect to make the spell cover a zone, without explicitely making it part of the spell.
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With power in Evocation, technically speaking, can't you draw as much power as you feel like taking stress for by default? The invoke on control is there so that you can draw and take stress/consquences for big ass spells then control said big ass spells. At least how I've taken it.
Well, you could, say do a 12 shift spell, for instance
Example 1: Using tags for control
With conviction 4 that would be a 4 box (for 7shifts)
Then a moderate (11 shifts)
Then a minor (13 shifts)
You could, then, spend all your tags to try to control all that power.
Example 2(using tags for power)
12 shift spell:
4box (7shifts of power)
Tag camp fire (9 shifts)
Invoke Wizard aspect (11 shifts)
Tag Summer Solstice(13 shifts).
In example 1, you took a minor and a moderate, but probably controlled the spell
In example 2, you didn't take any consequences, but now you have no more tags to control the 12 shift spell.
I'm not sure if you're allowed to do example 2. That's what I'm asking.
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There was a comment from the game designers a while back saying strongly implying that the intent was that you can do this.
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I understand that invoking an aspect can add +2 to controling a spell but can I use it to add to the Power of a spell?
By a strict reading of the book you can't add to evocation power by invoking aspects. The default only gives you two options: reroll or add to a roll result. (YS99)
That said, thaumaturgy is built on using aspects to power the spell. So if your group is looking for a way to add power to evokers, this is fair game.
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I'd allow it. There are enough instances in the books where storms and ley lines are used to add power to spells that I'd certainly allow them to be invoked for a power boost, and it's a short step from scene aspects to using personal aspects.
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Along those lines...
In addition to storms and leylines* how does emotion or pain fit into boosting the power (or control) of a spell? There are many times in the novels (I just finished reading Summer Knight) where Harry says that he draws on his pain and anger to fuel his magic, especially when needs to blast something when he's feeling righteous. I started thinking... How do you do that?
Would you Invoke your own Consequences? So a Mild Consequences give +2 to Power, a Moderate one gives +4, a Severe gives +6?
*In one of the scenarios put out by Evil Hat, the baddie uses leylines in his spell casting... they absorb Consequences from the stress of casting... So, you cast a spell at take 4 Mental Stress, you take that as a Consequences and defer it to the leyline. Storms or celestial alignments might do something similar.
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Would you Invoke your own Consequences? So a Mild Consequences give +2 to Power, a Moderate one gives +4, a Severe gives +6?
I dont think I would allow this, but I would probably allow +2 for each.
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Invoking any aspect (including consequences) always nets you a +2, no more and no less. The 2, 4, and 6 is how much stress you remove by taking different consequence levels.
I think what Harry is doing mechanically is invoking his consequences and other aspects that were placed on him to fuel his magic. Maybe he even placed some of them himself - I could see rolling his Conviction to place RIGHTEOUS FURY on himself, as an example.
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Along those lines...
Good one ;)
Emotions:
I can see a number of ways to go about this. Either make a declaration like "What happened in the last scene really pissed me off, and now I'll channel that anger into my spell", or you already have a social or mental consequence to reflect that and you spend a fate point on it. Of course you can take a consequence as well, if only as backlash, and phrase it as emotion-fueled. If you want to use it as a direct source of power, I'd do it as Lavecki says. Inflict a consequence and use the free tag (you created the aspect) to power your spell.
Leylines:
For things like Ley Lines and such, I think temporary powers is a great option. If you look at sponsored magic, it only costs you 2 refresh if you are a wizard. And if you have a sponsored magic that is limited to a place (like a leyline), that is only 1 refresh. If you add temporary powers to that, you can tap into any leyline for the cost of 1 fate points.
Now I would not recommend to do that very often, or if you do, make it a -2 sponsored magic like "leyline expert", that allows you to draw from any leyline. But for a temporary boost every now and again, that's just fine.
Of course the debt you accumulate on the leyline should somehow come into play, even if the player doesn't come near that leyline ever again.
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Would you Invoke your own Consequences? So a Mild Consequences give +2 to Power, a Moderate one gives +4, a Severe gives +6?
I dont think I would allow this, but I would probably allow +2 for each.
Invoking always gives you a +2 no matter what. Giving yourself a consequence gives you the value of the consequence...so a severe consequence would add 6 to the power. That said, I don't know if I'd allow someone to give themselves a minor consequence (adding 2 to the power) and then tag that same consequences to increase the power further...it seems like a 2 for 1..especially for the mild consequence.
Maybe on their next spell....
*In one of the scenarios put out by Evil Hat, the baddie uses leylines in his spell casting... they absorb Consequences from the stress of casting... So, you cast a spell at take 4 Mental Stress, you take that as a Consequences and defer it to the leyline. Storms or celestial alignments might do something similar.
This is interesting. I like it, but any time the leyline takes a consequence for you, you'd incure sponsored debt. Or you could just tag the aspect "leyline".
O.k...I think it's fair to say my question is answered. You can invoke for power as long as the invoke is appropriate.
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Would someone explain sponsored debt?
Meanwhile, I'm going to research it in the book.
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Well, it's basically a future compel you can't refuse. Instead of spending a fate point on something, you can ask your sponsor to cover you. In return, your sponsor now has a compel that you kind of already agreed to, so if the sponsor likes, he can push you to do all kinds of stuff.
Sponsor debt can not only occur when you treat it like a fate point, but you could, for example, ask your sponsor to take the casting stress instead of you, and you'd get into debt for that. YS287 is where you want to look it up.
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Well, it's basically a future compel you can't refuse.
You can refuse the compel, but it costs a you a FP and the debt isn't considered to be paid back. Eventually, you have to accept to pay off the debt. The important thing is that you don't receive a FP for accepting the compel because you've already gotten something in advance.
Or that's how I read it.
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Ah, excellent. Thank you very much.
So, would it be a storm or a leyline having you repay your debt? Or would it be the GM offering a Compel in the theme of the storm or the leyline or whatever? I'm trying to think of how it would work if, as we are talking about in this example, the "Sponsor" was non-sentient with no Agenda of its own. If the "sponsor" was due to the power of time and/or place...
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Maybe on their next spell....
I think it would have to be on their next spell since they dont technically have the consequence until they finish the current spell.
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You can refuse the compel, but it costs a you a FP and the debt isn't considered to be paid back. Eventually, you have to accept to pay off the debt. The important thing is that you don't receive a FP for accepting the compel because you've already gotten something in advance.
Or that's how I read it.
I feel it is a compel you already accepted, that's why I phrased it like that. But you are right, refusing with a fate point is always an option, though you won't really have won anything in that case.
So, would it be a storm or a leyline having you repay your debt? Or would it be the GM offering a Compel in the theme of the storm or the leyline or whatever? I'm trying to think of how it would work if, as we are talking about in this example, the "Sponsor" was non-sentient with no Agenda of its own. If the "sponsor" was due to the power of time and/or place...
Well, tapping into the source should, for a while, alter the character in a way. Tapping into a storm could make him erratic and hectic, due to the lightning. Or he might become moody. A leyline would impose itself on the wizard in the same way. A nurturing leyline would maybe inhibit the wizards destructive streak, for example.
And all compels can come from that kind of change to the character.
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I really like those ideas.
So, my Compel based on drawing power from the storm might be something like: "Since drew down power from the thunderstorm last week to cast your binding spell against a powerful demon, the rage of the storm has left it's mark on you. Normally, what Jake said wouldn't have phased you in the slightest, but today, you lose your temper and lash out at him for his foolish attitude toward something so serious."
Yeah, I really like that.
Or maybe the next time there is a thunderstorm, the connection you had established works in reverse and the storm somehow draws power from you. A Compel that takes efficacy away from a spell or two during the session.
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I think I like the first version better than the last. Or maybe turn it around on the second idea, that the storm liked to ride along on the wizards power and wants to do it again. If he wants it or not.
Of course, there can always be some entity connected to those phenomena. A storm rider shide, for example. Or an earth elemental as the guardian of a leyline.
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Paying off the Compel on Sponsor Debt might make the Debt go away, I'm unclear on the strict reading of the RAW, here, but accepting it definitely does not provide a FP as it normally would.
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You can refuse the compel, but it costs a you a FP and the debt isn't considered to be paid back. Eventually, you have to accept to pay off the debt. The important thing is that you don't receive a FP for accepting the compel because you've already gotten something in advance.
Or that's how I read it.
this, to me