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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Wolfhound on April 30, 2013, 05:26:58 PM

Title: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Wolfhound on April 30, 2013, 05:26:58 PM
So, I'm pondering something for one of my NPCs and I wanted to put out my math and thinking to groupthink and see if anyone had some addition perspective/points of view to add. I think this can all be accomplished within the rules now, I'm just assigning it a 0 refresh cost to "codify it" as a special FX for the NPC.

How the Refresh works out:
(2) Worldwalker <- existing, prerequisite
(2) Inhuman Speed  <- existing, prerequisite
(0) BAMF! <- new, I set the cost at zero because the character already has at least 4 refresh sunk into powers to pull this off. I figure that's more than enough considering 4 Refresh could grant a character spellcasting. :)

BAMF! (...or "Phasing" if you don't want Marvel to get grumpy) (0 Refresh)
Description: You have learned to combine your more-than-mortal speed with your mastery of the Nevernever to confuse and bewilder opponents.
Notes: A character must already possess both World Walker plus a Speed Related Power (Inhuman, Supernatural, or Mythic)
Skills Affected: Lore
Effects:
Blinking: Your character may enter the Nevernever as a Supplemental Action, move a distance up to whatever the character's Speed power grants minus 1 zone (thus, Casual Movement allows Blinking within the same zone, Effortless Movement is up to 1 zone away, Instant Movement is up to 2 zones away), and then potentially reappear in the same Exchange.

The character rolls Lore and requires at least a Good (+3) to accomplish this (the +2 Lore granted by Worldwalker's Strange Worlds applies to this roll) in a single Exchange. Failure to get at least a Good result means that the Nevernever in this area has an unexpectedly complex structure and the character fails to reappear in this Exchange (especially crafty or evil GMs can even turn this into a mini-scene before allowing the character to reappear). For each 3 shifts over and above the requisite 3, a non-sticky Maneuver Aspect can be applied to the scene (Suddenly Flanked, Surprise!, etc. etc.).

For clarity: Blinking itself is a full Action (the movement elements and going in-and-out of the Nevernever are Free and Supplemental Actions) thus the character cannot take an Action afterwards.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Lavecki121 on April 30, 2013, 06:09:59 PM
I dont think this power can work for a couple different reasons, the first being that cannon does not support the power. When you move in the never-never a point that is 10 ft away could be on the opposite side of the earth. I understand that world walker can mitigate apearing in other places but it is used differently than how you are describing.
(click to show/hide)

While it could be argued that it is still possible I dont see any reason for it.

Second, world walker only lets you open existing tears, not open new ones wherever you please, you would need Swift Transition for this.

Have you looked at the custom power that is already basically this?

Here it is:
DISPLACEMENT [-1]
Description: You are not where you appear to be. Glamour or other optical effect obscures your true location, making it difficult for opponents to properly target you.
Skills Affected: None
Effects:
Missed Me, Missed Me. Your uncertain location makes it difficult to target you in combat. All attacks against you are subject to a strength 3 block. You may suppress or resume this effect as a free action.
Too Fast To Hit. Moving quickly makes your displacement more effective. Add 1 to the strength of the block from Missed Me, Missed Me for each level of Speed that you possess.
Enhanced Displacement [-1]. Add 2 to the strength of the block from Missed Me, Missed Me.
Invisibility [-1]. You are invisible, simple as that. The block from Missed Me, Missed Me is now treated as a veil rather than as a block against attacks. It does not impede your ability to see at all.
Blinking [-1]. Your displacement is not just an optical effect: you are actually inconsistently tangible. You may treat all physical blocks, including grapples and zone borders, as if their strength was reduced by a margin equal to the strength of the block from Missed Me, Missed Me.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Wolfhound on April 30, 2013, 06:29:07 PM
the first being that cannon does not support the power

The requirement for a Good result (and the GM's ability to mess with the character in the event of a failure) in the above power is a nod to the phenomena you describe. As for the above quoted text (and the example), that is not the only manifestation of the Nevernever. Canon also supports that some parts of the Nevernever are in-fact functional reflections of the physical world.
EDIT: Used "functional" as that's more precise to my meaning
(click to show/hide)

Second, world walker only lets you open existing tears, not open new ones wherever you please, you would need Swift Transition for this.

Respectfully, not exactly the case (granted, with caveat). Reference pg 171 "Rift Maker" effect of Worldwalker.

Have you looked at the custom power that is already basically this?

Does not accomplish what I need. By naming it BAMF! (as the Marvel Nightcrawler character) hopefully that suggests my needs here. I don't need Glamour, I need the Nevernever (and epecially Worldwalker's ability to potentially allow the character to take others into the Nevernever as well).
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Haru on April 30, 2013, 06:54:13 PM
It's a cool idea and all, but I feel it's kind of broken.

So if you succeed on your roll, you are pretty much immune to anything for one exchange, and you don't even have to roll that high. And then you get a free maneuver if you roll well enough, and you get a bonus on that roll anyway. And all in one action. That's a bit much if you ask me.

I personally am a fan of the full defense roll, and we could use that here. I would make the power so that if you are in full defense mode, once per exchange, you can sacrifice the full defense bonus in order to do either a movement action or a maneuver as a free supplemental action. If the defense roll is successful, the action in question is successful as well.

That way, you will still be pretty well protected, and you have the chance to do other things as well. When you go into the full defense mode with this power, you sort of shift out of existence, moving at the edges of the nevernever and the real world. A careful observer will still be able to see you and strike at the right angle, just as you have shifted a tiny bit more to reality. You can jump out at opportune moments, catching your opponent by surprise and such.

If you are stuck in the nevernever while doing this? That's simply a compel on the aspect linked to this power. You might even use that yourself, conceding in a conflict, that you are stuck in the nevernever, the bad guys get away, but you are safe for now.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Taran on April 30, 2013, 08:46:15 PM

Here it is:
DISPLACEMENT [-1]
Description: You are not where you appear to be. Glamour or other optical effect obscures your true location, making it difficult for opponents to properly target you.
Skills Affected: None
Effects:
Missed Me, Missed Me. Your uncertain location makes it difficult to target you in combat. All attacks against you are subject to a strength 3 block. You may suppress or resume this effect as a free action.
Too Fast To Hit. Moving quickly makes your displacement more effective. Add 1 to the strength of the block from Missed Me, Missed Me for each level of Speed that you possess.
Enhanced Displacement [-1]. Add 2 to the strength of the block from Missed Me, Missed Me.
Invisibility [-1]. You are invisible, simple as that. The block from Missed Me, Missed Me is now treated as a veil rather than as a block against attacks. It does not impede your ability to see at all.
Blinking [-1]. Your displacement is not just an optical effect: you are actually inconsistently tangible. You may treat all physical blocks, including grapples and zone borders, as if their strength was reduced by a margin equal to the strength of the block from Missed Me, Missed Me.

For the record, I think this power is broken as well.  Not that I'm the best judge of such things.

As for your power...

It lets you bypass borders, assuming it's within your normal movement, and sets up a maneuver?

Couldn't you just use your action to do a maneuver?  You can already do the movement.  Because your blinking you bypass borders, which is the neat bonus.  I'd allow the Lore check(instead of Might) to get out of a grapple as well.  I don't like the multiple maneuvers part, though.

Unless I've completely missed something
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Wolfhound on April 30, 2013, 08:51:34 PM
I see your points and agreed in review the free maneuver(s) are a bit much.

So based on feedback so far: Addendum text "once per Exchange" (a limitation of Worldwalker RAW) and dispense all references to Maneuvers.

But I'd like to explore the prior reply, I'm not quite sure the "immune to anything" and "full defense" line of your thought. Could you elaborate?

My thinking is that BAMF! isn't, strictly speaking, defensive. It's more or less a Maneuver Action as its primary purpose is movement related. The Nightcrawler character is the primary idea, no only does he BAMF! to defend, but he also can grapple and individual and BAMF! taking them with him, or even just flat out BAMF! to another location.

As for "being immune" wouldn't you be immune on your own action anyway (assuming you're not attacking)? That's what confuses me. If it's my Action, and all I do is move, aren't I "immune" (nobody is attacking me, because I'm not attacking anybody else and it's my Action). But once my Action is over, now I'm back in the flow of the normal course of events no? (i.e. I can now be attacked as I've appeared in my new location).

Similarly, just with Worldwalker as is, if I open a Rift using "Rift Maker" to the Nevernever on my action and just walk through with Supernatural Speed as a Supplemental. Using rules as written, I'm 2 zones into the Nevernever by the time my Exchange is over am I not? If my opponent has no ranged attacks and does not wish to risk travelling to the Nevernever (perhaps they know they have no way out)... am I not already "immune" to attack until I choose to exit?

Eagerly awaiting your reply, thanks,
~Matt
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Wolfhound on April 30, 2013, 08:53:34 PM
Quote
It lets you bypass borders, assuming it's within your normal movement, and sets up a maneuver?

Yes, basically. As you observed the multiple maneuvers though was a bit much. Current incarnation is simply to remove the border limitations.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Lavecki121 on April 30, 2013, 08:54:41 PM
I see your points

Does not accomplish what I need. By naming it BAMF! (as the Marvel Nightcrawler character) hopefully that suggests my needs here. I don't need Glamour, I need the Nevernever (and epecially Worldwalker's ability to potentially allow the character to take others into the Nevernever as well).

Worldwaker [-2]
Displacement [-1]
    Blinking [-1]

This cost the same as your proposed power.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 30, 2013, 09:03:54 PM
You might want to take a look at the Teleportation custom Power.

How the Refresh works out:
(2) Worldwalker <- existing, prerequisite
(2) Inhuman Speed  <- existing, prerequisite
(0) BAMF! <- new, I set the cost at zero because the character already has at least 4 refresh sunk into powers to pull this off. I figure that's more than enough considering 4 Refresh could grant a character spellcasting. :)

No.

Don't do this.

BAMF! (...or "Phasing" if you don't want Marvel to get grumpy) (0 Refresh)
Description: You have learned to combine your more-than-mortal speed with your mastery of the Nevernever to confuse and bewilder opponents.
Notes: A character must already possess both World Walker plus a Speed Related Power (Inhuman, Supernatural, or Mythic)
Skills Affected: Lore
Effects:
Blinking: Your character may enter the Nevernever as a Supplemental Action, move a distance up to whatever the character's Speed power grants minus 1 zone (thus, Casual Movement allows Blinking within the same zone, Effortless Movement is up to 1 zone away, Instant Movement is up to 2 zones away), and then potentially reappear in the same Exchange.

The character rolls Lore and requires at least a Good (+3) to accomplish this (the +2 Lore granted by Worldwalker's Strange Worlds applies to this roll) in a single Exchange. Failure to get at least a Good result means that the Nevernever in this area has an unexpectedly complex structure and the character fails to reappear in this Exchange (especially crafty or evil GMs can even turn this into a mini-scene before allowing the character to reappear). For each 3 shifts over and above the requisite 3, a non-sticky Maneuver Aspect can be applied to the scene (Suddenly Flanked, Surprise!, etc. etc.).

For clarity: Blinking itself is a full Action (the movement elements and going in-and-out of the Nevernever are Free and Supplemental Actions) thus the character cannot take an Action afterwards.

I've read this, and I'm not sure exactly how it's supposed to work.

What sort of action is it? Why not just make the difficulty 1, if everyone with this Power is gonna have a bonus? Why are you rolling for a supplemental action?

What exactly does Blinking even do? Does it break grapples? Does it let you move through barriers?

If the action is supplemental, do you take a penalty for it?

Does not accomplish what I need. By naming it BAMF! (as the Marvel Nightcrawler character) hopefully that suggests my needs here. I don't need Glamour, I need the Nevernever (and epecially Worldwalker's ability to potentially allow the character to take others into the Nevernever as well).

If you take the Blinking upgrade, then Displacement actually does involve the Nevernever.

And your Power as written doesn't actually let you take people with you.

For the record, I think this power is broken as well.  Not that I'm the best judge of such things.

Really?

Most of the criticism I've heard has been in the opposite direction. People seem to think it's weak.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Haru on April 30, 2013, 09:18:27 PM
But I'd like to explore the prior reply, I'm not quite sure the "immune to anything" and "full defense" line of your thought. Could you elaborate?
I was going from how you phrased it. I understood it that you would step into the nevernever on your turn, move over to where you want to go and return on your next exchange. That way, you'd be somewhere else entirely for the duration of the exchange, and nobody would be able to attack you. Since I thought this to be the major thing your wanted to do, I thought I'd wrap the whole deal into a defense power and use the full defense to do it.

Quote
My thinking is that BAMF! isn't, strictly speaking, defensive. It's more or less a Maneuver Action as its primary purpose is movement related. The Nightcrawler character is the primary idea, no only does he BAMF! to defend, but he also can grapple and individual and BAMF! taking them with him, or even just flat out BAMF! to another location.
Well, you'd defend with athletics as usual, there is nothing in your writeup that says otherwise. But since you have a speed power, that'll probably be one of your best skills anyway, so anything else would be less powerful.

On a whole, you won't need to do all that much for a power that works like you want to.
1) When moving, you can move through zone borders that you would otherwise not be able to, simply because you are zapping through the nevernever. This would be instantaneous, so people at the other side might be able to attack you now.
2) You may use your athletics to make maneuvers against alertness or deceit, appearing behind your target and the likes.

And that's it, you're done. You can do anything you like. You can even do supplemental movement actions with a maneuver and jump to someone a zone away and get behind him. Or a supplemental movement action with an attack. jump in, attack. Or attack, jump out. I'd probably price this at [-1] with world walking as a prerequisite.

Quote
As for "being immune" wouldn't you be immune on your own action anyway (assuming you're not attacking)? That's what confuses me. If it's my Action, and all I do is move, aren't I "immune" (nobody is attacking me, because I'm not attacking anybody else and it's my Action). But once my Action is over, now I'm back in the flow of the normal course of events no? (i.e. I can now be attacked as I've appeared in my new location).
see above

Quote
Similarly, just with Worldwalker as is, if I open a Rift using "Rift Maker" to the Nevernever on my action and just walk through with Supernatural Speed as a Supplemental. Using rules as written, I'm 2 zones into the Nevernever by the time my Exchange is over am I not? If my opponent has no ranged attacks and does not wish to risk travelling to the Nevernever (perhaps they know they have no way out)... am I not already "immune" to attack until I choose to exit?
Well kind of, but you are already stating the main differences:
1. you are still visible, people can see you. and shoot at you. This is not much different than just sprinting down the parking lot to get away from your opponent.
2. They know where you will enter the real world again. A wizard might quickly close and seal the way. They might put up guards to stop you from getting back into reality and following them when they skedaddle and so on.

That makes it a big difference to what you have been after.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Wolfhound on April 30, 2013, 09:37:45 PM
Thanks, so far excellent feedback.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Tsunami on May 01, 2013, 07:47:13 AM
Quote
Blinking: Your character may enter the Nevernever as a Supplemental Action, move a distance up to whatever the character's Speed power grants minus 1 zone (thus, Casual Movement allows Blinking within the same zone, Effortless Movement is up to 1 zone away, Instant Movement is up to 2 zones away), and then potentially reappear in the same Exchange.
Ok, as far as i can see, the desired result is simply to have teleport themed movement. (explained by entering and exiting the nevernever)
As it's written it reduces the free movement of the speed powers by 1 to account for that.

Quote
The character rolls Lore and requires at least a Good (+3) to accomplish this (the +2 Lore granted by Worldwalker's Strange Worlds applies to this roll) in a single Exchange. Failure to get at least a Good result means that the Nevernever in this area has an unexpectedly complex structure and the character fails to reappear in this Exchange (especially crafty or evil GMs can even turn this into a mini-scene before allowing the character to reappear)
Adding a random-factor, and making it potentially dangerous (depending on the lore score only very rarely though) is a nice touch.

Quote
For each 3 shifts over and above the requisite 3, a non-sticky Maneuver Aspect can be applied to the scene (Suddenly Flanked, Surprise!, etc. etc.).
It then adds a maneuver component turning it into a full action.
So far so good.

Concern:
Quote
For each 3 shifts over and above the requisite 3, a non-sticky Maneuver Aspect can be applied to the scene (Suddenly Flanked, Surprise!, etc. etc.).
this potentially let's you add multiple aspects in one action, i would not allow that.

I'd rather go ahead and limit the power to the movement alone and let the maneuver or any other actions be separate from it.
I would also add another component: Bypassing mundane barriers.

O screw it, i'm getting it all confused in my head... Let me just try my own writeup:

Blinking: You are adept at finding short range ways through the nevernever that allow you to give the impression of having teleported from one spot to the other, the maximum real world distance traveled is determined by the speed power (1 zone inhuman, 2 zones supernatural, 3 zones mythic). Finding and using such a way requires at least a Good(+3) Lore result, and counts as a supplemental move action imposing a +1 difficulty on all other actions. (at the GM's discretion the required result my also be higher) The +2 Lore bonus granted by Worldwalker's Strange Worlds applies to this roll. Failing the roll can either mean that there is no such way to be found resulting in a wasted supplemental action and aborted movement, or that the way is longer and more dangerous than expected resulting in failure to reappear in the same exchange.  (especially crafty or evil GMs can even turn this into a mini-scene before allowing the character to reappear)
You may chose to turn your Supplemental move into a full action, limiting your distance travelled to 1 zone, but allowing you to either bypass any borders on that move, as long as they do not cut you off from the nevernever, or to overcome any mundane movement block against you.

Ok, so this basically allows you to
a) as a supplemental action and for a roll to turn your free-speed movement into a teleport, it's actually a purely cosmetic effect, but it could be a lot of fun.
you can still use a maneuver, attack, or normal movement before or after you BAMF.
b) as a full action you can ignore any one zone border (as long as nothing is blocking access to the nevernever), or overcome any mundane movement block against you, and move one zone.

a) is not worth much. actually as it is now it's not even really useful because you have absolutely no mechanical benefit from it, but it still requires a a supplemental action.
As it is now it's not worth any refresh so [-0] up until here.
One should probably add border bypassing or movement block breaking to one degree or another... i'll have to think about that.
b) can actually be extreemely useful. I'd say a [-1] refresh cost at least would be in order.

Ok, now i'll stop and leave you to untangle this post.
Have a nice day *g*
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Taran on May 01, 2013, 12:03:27 PM
Bypassing borders that have wards would require a lore roll high enough to beat the ward.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Taran on May 01, 2013, 12:17:35 PM
Why not make it a power that uses Lore to make all movement rolls?  You'd still get the +2 from worldwalking.  Maybe incorporate the movement bonus to athletics from your speed powers as well..but that may be too much.  maybe just take whichever bonus is higher.

- Use Lore instead of Athletics: Borders may be "ignored" by making a lore roll equal to the border strength
- teleporting: You may move a number of zones dictated by your speed power as a supplemental with no penalty.  You may ignore movement penalties within the same zone (from debris etc..) because you are "teleporting"
- You may use Lore to escape Grapples.  Your roll must beat the grapple block.  Additional shifts allow you to teleport into other zones.
- If a border exists that might be impossible to bypass by regular movement (like going through a wall into a building), you must use the Sprint action and your Lore roll must beat the border strength. (treat the border as a high wall or Gm's discretion)
- If there is a ward, the roll must also bypass the ward.  A threshold will reduce your number of shifts equal to the threshold strength.

This power is a good justification for maneuvers such as, "surpised, flatfooted, blinking, semi-corpreal" etc...


Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Wolfhound on May 01, 2013, 06:57:10 PM
Ok, now i'll stop and leave you to untangle this post.
Have a nice day *g*

It's all good, I have a while before I need this NPC so I'm mulling over everyone's suggestions. :)
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Aminar on May 01, 2013, 11:40:19 PM
Conceptually I love the idea.  However I would skip the worldwalker pre-req and instead have it be a 1-2 refresh add on to a speed power(likely 1 and its just a homebrew stunt.).  Call it Blink/Bamf/Whatever and have it function as needed for the character to short range teleport.  I wouldn't even cut the speed(as I feel like in almost all cases it is very situational as a movement tool(IE, minimal bonus 90% of the time.)  Add in a bonus +1 on defense rolls beyond the speed powers bonus to athletics and free up their movement and remove the attack penalty for moving when they blink. 
Keeps it simple, allows for the concept, and is useful but not broken(Honestly feels balanced as a stunt.)

I feel the movement part itself is only minimally useful over the ones already granted by speed.  It allows ignoring terrain and barriers, which is handy, but its rare that the terrain is especially awful, ignoring height via spiderclimb is -1 power and it allows you to cling to walls and stuff too(something I find more useful in many ways.)  I have often found that outside of combat movement powers see minimal use to keep the group together as well so it isn't especially practical there.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Lavecki121 on May 01, 2013, 11:43:04 PM
I'm sorry. Maybe I don't completely understand what you are trying to do. So you want to be able to teleport within the same area and be able to move other people, possibly also using this power to go into the never never?
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Wolfhound on May 02, 2013, 12:33:29 AM
I'm sorry. Maybe I don't completely understand what you are trying to do. So you want to be able to teleport within the same area and be able to move other people, possibly also using this power to go into the never never?

I'm assuming you are unfamiliar with the Nightcrawler character from Marvel comics?

If so, the The White House attack scene from the film I think will best illustrate what I'm going for (ignoring borders, maneuvers within the zone, etc.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGztjzEuysM

I don't need quite the unstoppable plot device element of the above scene, but I think it covers all the high points
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Tedronai on May 02, 2013, 12:34:45 AM
- You may use Lore to escape Grapples.  Your roll must beat the grapple block.  Additional shifts allow you to teleport into other zones.

Blocks are not armour.  No, not even grapple-based blocks.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Taran on May 02, 2013, 12:47:11 AM
Blocks are not armour.  No, not even grapple-based blocks.

Umm...I don't think I said anything about armour....

Grapples don't allow movement.  So this power would allow you to use Lore to move out of a grapple as long as your Lore beats the strength of the grapple.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Tedronai on May 02, 2013, 01:12:49 AM
Additional shifts allow you to teleport into other zones.

If a roll subject to a block exceeds the value of a block, the full effect of that roll takes effect.  Blocks do not reduce the value of a roll (attacks are a special case where this is concerned).  That is the purview of armour.
If the desired effect of a roll subject to a block is to move between zones, and that roll is sufficient to surpass the block, then the effect of the roll continues as if the block had not been in place.  No 'additional shifts' are necessary.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Taran on May 02, 2013, 01:53:17 AM
Yeah, I remember that now.

I always found it weird that blocks are all or nothing, though.  Does that make them less useful?  Does doing it the other way make them too useful?  I'm not disputing the rule but...I don't want to derail this thread.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Tedronai on May 02, 2013, 02:15:27 AM
Having blocks act as armour makes them devastatingly potent in situations where they're being applied against a roll that already has to beat a static difficulty or opposed roll.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Lavecki121 on May 02, 2013, 02:40:11 AM
Um...that's not how blocks work. If you best the block it acts in the same way a dodge would mitigate an attack. The difference between blocks and armor is that the armor remains, the block does not
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Tedronai on May 02, 2013, 03:02:19 AM
See above re: 'attacks are a special case'
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 02, 2013, 05:08:52 AM
I don't think it's possible to sprint while grappled at all, normally. So the issue probably doesn't arise with grapples.

But I'm away from my books so I can't be sure.

I'm assuming you are unfamiliar with the Nightcrawler character from Marvel comics?

Yo. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,34313.msg1620175.html#msg1620175)
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Taran on May 02, 2013, 10:43:07 AM
I don't think it's possible to sprint while grappled at all, normally. So the issue probably doesn't arise with grapples.


Normally you can't move while in a grapple.  I was pointing out that this power would give you an opportunity to break a grapple and then move using lore as the skill.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Tedronai on May 02, 2013, 03:13:37 PM
You cannot move while grappled unless you make a roll to do so that surpasses the grapple's block strength.
I am not aware of any language in the rules that imposes a restriction in excess of this.  If you are, please point it out to me.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Haru on May 02, 2013, 03:16:53 PM
You cannot move while grappled unless you make a roll to do so that surpasses the grapple's block strength.
I am not aware of any language in the rules that imposes a restriction in excess of this.  If you are, please point it out to me.
That'd be my interpretation as well. If you exceed the grapple strength, the number of excess shifts you have is the number of shifts you can move. If you don't exceed the grapple, you won't move.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Tedronai on May 02, 2013, 03:20:58 PM
the number of excess shifts you have is the number of shifts you can move.
Blocks are not armour and movement is not an attack.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Haru on May 02, 2013, 03:24:56 PM
Blocks are not armour and movement is not an attack.
I don't see your point. A grapple blocks me from doing things. I am doing something better than the block that is preventing me from doing so, I get to do my thing, minus the block that limits me.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Tedronai on May 02, 2013, 03:29:50 PM
minus the block that limits me.
Nope.
You beat the block.  You do your thing.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Taran on May 02, 2013, 03:31:35 PM
You cannot move while grappled unless you make a roll to do so that surpasses the grapple's block strength.
I am not aware of any language in the rules that imposes a restriction in excess of this.  If you are, please point it out to me.

YS pg 211

When you successfully grapple a target, you
establish a block against all actions he might
take in the exchange. The target is also prohibited
from sprinting (page 212) or supplemental
movement
(page 213) until the grapple is broken


bolded mine

Therefore you are not even allowed to attempt to do a sprint action until you do some kind of action that:
1. Overcomes the block
2. Is a justification to break the block.

Since sprinting is a full action, you would be unable to sprint in the same round that you were involved in a grapple.

You'd have to, first, do something to break the grapple (action), you could then make a move (supplemental).

I was trying to point out that, if you can "teleport", you could do a sprint action while grappled - so long as you beat the grapple strength.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Haru on May 02, 2013, 03:46:04 PM
Nope.
You beat the block.  You do your thing.
I'm pretty sure the block still reduces your shifts, like a defense roll would against an attack. Just because it is not an attack does not mean the block does nothing against the action.

Though it seems to be moot in the case of a grapple, looking at Taran's post. Didn't realize you weren't allowed to use a sprint action to break a grapple.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Taran on May 02, 2013, 04:02:07 PM
I'm pretty sure the block still reduces your shifts, like a defense roll would against an attack. Just because it is not an attack does not mean the block does nothing against the action.

Though it seems to be moot in the case of a grapple, looking at Taran's post. Didn't realize you weren't allowed to use a sprint action to break a grapple.

Here's what it says under blocks

During the exchange,
any time a character wants to perform the action
that’s covered by the block
, he must roll against
the block and meet or exceed the block strength
to be able to perform that action. If he fails, he
cannot perform the action in question. If he
meets or exceeds the block strength, the action
resolves normally, with benefits for extra shifts if
the roll beats the block strength by a wide margin
.


You'll note that this paragraph isn't specific to an attack.  It is just talking about an action.

TBH, I remember hearing that the full effect occures if it bypasses the block, but I don't remember if I read it in YS, or if I just read it on these boards.  From the quote above, it seems like the block reduces the effect.

If I was to do a maneuver(4shifts) on someone, the block(4shifts) or the persons defense(3shifts)-whichever is higher- would dictate whether the maneuver is sticky or fragile.  In this case, it would be fragile.

If I'm trying to get past a border (3) and someone is blocking the way (5), my sprint(6) and the amount of shifts I get is going to be determined by whichever is higher.  In this case, the block and not the border.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Haru on May 02, 2013, 04:12:40 PM
Well ok, that makes sense. I am no longer seeing if I can perform the task itself, I am trying to perform the task, while someone else is trying to stop me. My opponent now comes into focus, and that is what I am rolling against now. The fact that my task will succeed is pretty much a given, once I am able to defeat whoever is keeping me from it.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Taran on May 02, 2013, 04:29:57 PM
I'm not sure what you're saying Haru. I''m not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing :P  In the case of sprinting.

Sprint roll 6
border 3
That would normally be 1 zone +1 for each shift of success, so 4 zones total

If someone was blocking that same border
Sprint roll 6
border 3
Block 5
The result should only be 2 zones - not 4.

I don't see why the block wouldn't reduce the success.  In what circumstance is this too powerful?
Maneuvers, attacks, movement.  It works for all these things equally well.

Edit:  I think I know where the confusion lies...it's with this sentence:

"the action resolves normally"

Which can be interpreted as "it resolves as if there had been no block in the first place"

I take that sentence as,
"it resolves as per the normal rules of extra shifts for success"

because right after that phrase, it says,

"with benefits for extra shifts if
the roll beats the block strength by a wide margin"

It doesn't specify the original difficulty.  It specifies the block strength.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Wolfhound on May 02, 2013, 04:48:11 PM
Yo

Consider my hands rubbing in evil GM glee. Thanks.

Oh, just to verify - most of those new powers are on the custom power master list thread in the resources forum?
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: GryMor on May 02, 2013, 05:42:46 PM
I could be mistaken, but my recollection is that a fragile aspect is difficulty 3 and a sticky aspect is difficulty 4; degree of succsess does not matter for the maneuver, only the actual result. A block or other defense simply establishes a (potentially higher) difficulty. That is, a maneuver that overcomes a strength 4+ block will result in a sticky aspect.

Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Taran on May 02, 2013, 05:55:16 PM
Nah, thats's only for maneuvers that don't have a resistance attached to it, or when trying to figure out how much power to pump into a spell maneuver.

So a spell that has no-one resisting it, has a fragile difficulty of 3 and a sticky difficulty of 4.  Skill maneuvers have a difficulty set by the GM but usually the difficulties are the same as what I just mentionned.

If someone is resisting a spell maneuver, there is no target roll.  They simply resist the Power of the maneuver.  So, assuming a power 5 maneuver, if the target resists with a 4, it is sticky, if he resists with a 5 it is fragile, if he resists with a 6, the maneuver fails.

So, if you wanted to put up a block against a maneuver, if you put up a 5 shift block, the wizard would have to pump at least 5 shifts of power into the spell to make it work - and then it would only be fragile.  To make it sticky, he'd have to pump in 6.

Skill maneuvers that are vs a target require the target to make a defense.  Your skill roll is the target difficulty.  If they equal the roll it's fragile, if it is less it is sticky.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Haru on May 02, 2013, 06:47:38 PM
I'm not sure what you're saying Haru. I''m not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing :P  In the case of sprinting.

Sprint roll 6
border 3
That would normally be 1 zone +1 for each shift of success, so 4 zones total

If someone was blocking that same border
Sprint roll 6
border 3
Block 5
The result should only be 2 zones - not 4.

I don't see why the block wouldn't reduce the success.  In what circumstance is this too powerful?
Maneuvers, attacks, movement.  It works for all these things equally well.
Ok, first, I would probably not just add 1 zone for each shift over the success. I would see what the next border is and subtract. And again, until the roll is used up. I know, that's not what the rules say, but it doesn't make sense, that I'd need a roll of 3 to jump a fence and then for each subsequent fence I'd need only 1 shift.
Sprinting to me is at first only crossing over to the next zone. Since those rolls are usually not very high, you will often enough end up with a lot of overflow, so you just use that up until you moved as far as you wanted to, be that with 1 shift for 1 zone or the other method I lined out.

What I meant, going from your example, is that the Block of 5 would replace the border 3. The idea is, that it is no longer important that you can climb the fence, but can you climb the fence while someone is trying to stop you. So yes, the result would be 2 zones of movement, 5 for the first one to get past the block and 1 for the second.

I could be mistaken, but my recollection is that a fragile aspect is difficulty 3 and a sticky aspect is difficulty 4; degree of succsess does not matter for the maneuver, only the actual result. A block or other defense simply establishes a (potentially higher) difficulty. That is, a maneuver that overcomes a strength 4+ block will result in a sticky aspect.
Not quite. Those numbers are from magical maneuvers, those work a bit different.
For regular maneuvers, you either roll against a fixed difficulty or an opponent. But your opponent can have set up a block, which would be sort of a pre-defense roll. If you tie with your opponent or roll exactly the target number, your aspect is fragile, if you roll at least 1 over, your aspect is sticky.

So the target number for an easy maneuver could be 2, so it would become sticky if you rolled a 3 or higher. Or someone would try to stop you from doing it, and you roll a 5, the opponent rolls a 4 to defend against your maneuver, the aspect is sticky as well.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Taran on May 02, 2013, 06:59:50 PM
Ok, first, I would probably not just add 1 zone for each shift over the success. I would see what the next border is and subtract. And again, until the roll is used up. I know, that's not what the rules say, but it doesn't make sense, that I'd need a roll of 3 to jump a fence and then for each subsequent fence I'd need only 1 shift.
Sprinting to me is at first only crossing over to the next zone. Since those rolls are usually not very high, you will often enough end up with a lot of overflow, so you just use that up until you moved as far as you wanted to, be that with 1 shift for 1 zone or the other method I lined out.


Yeah...I see that, but that's complicating things.  Just for the sake of argument, we'll say it's a fence followed by zone after zone of straight open country.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Haru on May 02, 2013, 07:12:15 PM
Yeah...I see that, but that's complicating things.  Just for the sake of argument, we'll say it's a fence followed by zone after zone of straight open country.
That's pretty much what I did in the next paragraph. The block replaces the zone border, and after that the sprint action is resolved regularly. You just need a higher roll to get over the fence, so naturally, there will be less shifts left to move additional zones.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 02, 2013, 10:06:50 PM
Oh, just to verify - most of those new powers are on the custom power master list thread in the resources forum?

Yes. In theory, they all are.

But if I were you I'd use the text document (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43356063/Custom%20Powers%20Master%20List%20%28V3%29.odt) instead of the thread. It's more organized and easier to search. Teleportation and Superhuman Acrobatics are just a Ctrl-F away.
Title: Re: BAMF! (Phasing/Same Zone Teleportation)
Post by: Cadd on May 02, 2013, 10:33:00 PM
That text document is an absolute goldmine! The only annoying thing with it is all the BBCode tags in it, but those are fairly easily edited out :p