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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Phantomdoodler on April 24, 2013, 08:04:31 AM
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Hi guys,
has anyone started on a conversion to Fate Core yet? I am just about to start a campaign and frantically converting Dresden rpg to Fate Core. I am trying to streamline the skills and the magic system. So far the skill list is looking like:
Athletics
Burglary
Contacts
Crafts
Deceive
Drive
Empathy
Fight
Investigate
Lore
Notice
Physique
Provoke
Rapport
Resources
Scholar
Shoot
Stealth
Survival
Will
Changed Skills: Endurance and Might have been replaced with Physique. Presence now is incorporated into Rapport (although it will need a stunt to affect groups) and Perform is now covered using Rapport, Scholar, Crafts and Athletics, depending on what you are trying to do, with stunts providing specific bonuses. Guns has now been replaced with the more generic Shoot, covering bows, crossbows, slings etc, although Physique is used for thrown weapons. Fists and Weapons have been replaced with Fight.Conviction and Discipline have been replaced with Will, although a spellcaster can choose to be better at control or power.
Character Generation: Since there are now fewer skills, when creating a character, choose the power level as usual:
Feet in the Water: 6 Refresh and 20 points worth of skills. Skill cap of Great (+4)
Up to your Waist: 7 Refresh and 20 points worth of skills. Skill cap of Great (+4)
Chest Deep: 8 Refresh and 25 points worth of skills. Skill cap of Superb (+5)
Submerged: 10 Refresh and 30 points worth of skills. Skill cap of Superb (+5)
However, these are just guides. The Gm can set any of these "dials" to whatever they wish when creating a campaign.
And here are my current Evocation rules:
So here is a reworking of my first idea, using your ideas and suggestions:
Will, Control and Power
Your Will, along with Lore, determines your skill with magic, but each spellcasting character also has a Control and Power rating, both equal to Will. Since some spellcasters are more interested in power than control (Harry for example), and others prefer a more cautious approach to magic, when creating your character (or when first gaining spellcasting powers) you may choose to modify either Control or Power by +1. You must, however, reduce the other rating by -1. By taking specialisms and focus items, you may modify your Control and Power ratings for each type of spell cast.
Gathering Power
To achieve an effect with magic you need to channel a number of shifts into the spell. Evocation magic is taxing so when casting a spell, you must take a point of mental stress, plus 1 for each shift that exceeds your Power rating.
You may use evocation magic to produce the following effects:
Overcome: Bypass or remove a physical obstacle or situational aspect, so long as you can justify it with the element you are using, nullify an existing spell by the force of your will, or deliberately hex technology
Shifts of Power: You must channel enough shifts to equal or surpass the opposition of the obstacle or situational aspect. When nullifying a spell effect (known as a counterspell) the shifts in the spell must equal or surpass the shifts in the countered spell (or the spell’s complexity); if you make a successful Lore roll opposed by the Will of the caster, you can determine this value. When hexing technology, the power required is determined by your age, and the complexity of the technology (See YS258).
Create an Advantage: Create a situational aspect, placed on a scene, object or character. Each aspect can act as an obstacle to certain actions based on its type; barriers block or prevent movement (Wall of Thorns, Trapped in Quicksand), shields provide protection from physical attacks (Force Field, Personal Whirlwind), and veils block a target’s perception (Invisibility, Cloak of Shadows). Each aspect provides a passive opposition of Good (+3), although the caster may actively defend using their Will (this is not a Control roll, do not apply control bonuses). An aspect will last for as long as they are maintained, or are removed or overcome. However, it may make sense for certain aspects to remain. If the aspect leaves a solid, tangible presence in the world, such as a Wall of Rock , a book of shelves blown over to create Fallen Shelves, or a warehouse Set on Fire, the aspect will remain long after the caster stops maintaining it’s effects. However, when a character fails to maintain such an aspect, they lose all free invocations assigned to it.
Shifts of Power: Creating an aspect requires 3 shifts, plus a further 2 shifts for each free invocation assigned to it.
Maintaining aspects: Most aspects created by magic require maintenance- their effects just can’t exist in the world without a wizard focusing his will. This doesn’t hamper your other actions, but you may only maintain one such aspect at a time.
Attack: You may make a physical attack against a target up to 2 zones away.
Shifts of Power: You may increase the Weapon rating of the attack by 1 for each 1 shift channelled into the spell. For +2 shifts, your attack affects all targets within a zone, extending this area by +2 shifts each zone.
Defend: Owing to the speed of an attack, it is not possible to defend against attacks using evocations, unless you possess a suitable stunt.
Controlling Power
Now the energy of the spell is gathered, you need to harness and control it. Make a Control roll, plus any specialisation and focus item bonuses that apply, opposed by the shifts of power in the spell.
• If you fail, the spell is still cast but you suffer backlash or fallout. Determine the shifts of failure (the difference between the difficulty and your roll). You may take any or all of these shifts as mental or physical stress (backlash), and/or have the spell leak into the world (fallout). Each shift of fallout will cause damage to the environment and anyone around – the greater the shifts, the more chaos such uncontrolled magic causes. Each shift of fallout also removes one shift of power from the spell.
• If you tie, succeed, or succeed with style, the spell takes effect as intended. The outcome will vary based on the spell’s action type.
When making an attack or placing an aspect on an unwilling target, the target will get to resist, regardless of this outcome. Your spell will only affect them if your Control roll exceeds their result.
Heres my current character sheet:
http://s557.photobucket.com/user/Phantomdoodler/library/?sort=3&page=1 (http://s557.photobucket.com/user/Phantomdoodler/library/?sort=3&page=1)
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Apologies if I missed it, as I only skimmed the core post but in the Magic System Toolkit (A preview of the system toolkit) there was a stripped down version of the Evocation system I believe. It could be handy for you, if you haven't seen it.
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Yes i looked over that, and it was helpful. The idea of just rolling a skill and the outcome determines the power of effect is certainly tempting- it very easy to run. However I am trying to keep the feel of Dresden files. The idea of believing in what you are doing and focusing will. Really I just want to clean up the current version so everything fits the four action/four outcome resolution system of Fate Core.
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My group and I have been working on a conversion for a few months now. The results are online, and you can make comments on the documents.
We recently combined Discipline and Conviction in to Will, and got rid of the Social stress track. Gaining spellcasting gives you a Magic stress track, so you still have to deal with taking stress for casting.
Take a look: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BwouQYZcwYj2aDdORkgzeVNBa2s&usp=sharing
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I'm curious -- why did you choose to rename Conviction to Faith? If you're keeping that sort of Skill in order to keep the Dresden Files themes and system, there's no need to rename it, right?
When it comes to Create Advantage, I was under the impression that the Aspect stays in existence as long as the caster concentrates on it and it is within his line of sight. I got this from one of the blog posts made by Fred Hicks when discussing some of the rules tweaks in Fate Core. http://www.faterpg.com/2013/blocks-and-borders-live-in-fate-core/
What do you think?
I appreciate what you've written up here. I'm currently working on getting involved in an online Dresden Files chat game and I'm trying to persuade the Admins to adopt the refinements from the Fate Core into the Dresden rules. So, seeing someone who has already done it, with the options appearing to be a painless transition really meets my need for clarity and boost my confidence that this can be done without a hassle.
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Hi,
thanks. Yes, I thought Faith fitted the new skill names a little better. I think Conviction and Will could be confused by players, while Faith could be used to say, keep a vampire at bay, but I am really not sure if I actually want to keep it on reflection. I dont like the idea of not actually making a roll for conviction/faith during spell casting.
Looking at the new blocks and borders rules, I think thats the right way to go. Its just a case of making it feel Dresden like...
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My group and I have been working on a conversion for a few months now. The results are online, and you can make comments on the documents.
We recently combined Discipline and Conviction in to Will, and got rid of the Social stress track. Gaining spellcasting gives you a Magic stress track, so you still have to deal with taking stress for casting.
Take a look: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BwouQYZcwYj2aDdORkgzeVNBa2s&usp=sharing
Actually thats looking very nice :) So I am intrigued about combining Discipline and Conviction. Are you still using the draw power and control it nature of magic, and if so, how does that work with just Will?
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Actually thats looking very nice :) So I am intrigued about combining Discipline and Conviction. Are you still using the draw power and control it nature of magic, and if so, how does that work with just Will?
Thanks :)
Check out the Powers document. At the beginning of the Spellcasting powers it explains how to do it.
We haven't playtested it yet though.
We're still debating making Rote spells the average of your Control and Power, not just based on your Control.
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There are a few things that worry me here.
First, you've made spellcasting significantly stronger by only requiring one skill for it. And spellcasting is already pretty strong.
Second, you've made spellcasting significantly stronger by letting people defend reflexively with it. And again, it's already strong.
Third, Athletics and Rapport seem more powerful than the other skills, while Burglary seems weak.
Also, I'm not sure it's advisable to reduce the number of skill points available to Chest Deep and Submerged characters. I'd rather let Chest Deep characters get two Superb skills. And it seems wrong that Submerged characters can't make a traditional pyramid.
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Regarding skills, I have used the Fate Core list, (adding Scholar and Survival) to keep things simple. Yes Rapport coves a lot of social skills now, as in Fate Core, but i think 4 social skills (Provoke, Rapport, Deceive, Contacts) is enough for a 20 skill system. I think Perform could actually be incorporated into several skills, using a stunt to provide a bonus (Rapport for entertaining a crowd, Crafts for painting, sculpture, Scholar for poetry, musical composition and art history, Athletics for dancing etc). Burglary does cover hacking and other elicit technical skills, so its pretty useful. I think using Athletics for thrown attacks may be too useful, so Physique could be used for chucking thrown weapons up to a zone away. Since I am not using a social stress track, Presence becomes less useful. Rapport can be used for crowds or groups, but you need to split your results to cover more than one target. With a stunt such as Crowd Control, Commanding Presence or Team Building, you could ignore this rule and affect large groups of individuals as Presence currently works.
Regarding magic, there are now only two stress tracks - physical and mental, so for evocation spells, wizards wont be able to blast away all day, especially if they have been mentally attacked via Provoke.And you still need Lore to be a half decent Wizard. The reflexive nature of spells is tied into the four action rules. I cant see why a wizard couldnt cast a quick shield-based rote spell (which would still cost him at least 1 mental stress). Using Will to resist attacks is just incorporating the new situational aspect rules regarding blocks and represents the wizards mental focus trying to cast the spell quickly. However, I think its entirely appropriate that you couldnt use any free invocations the spell provides if you are casting the spell in reaction to an attack. That stops players loading up a rote shield spell so that they are immune to surprise attacks.
Regarding starting skill points, since there are 5 less skills than Dresden (80%), each power level should have 80% of the previous ratings. I have actually been a little generous here since the correct amount should be 16/20/24/28. Actually i think 15/20/25/30 would be more appropriate.
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Move
Talk
Fight
Magic
and done ;D
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Character sheet and Skill List cheat sheet up here. I am currently working in cheat sheets for evocation, thaumaturgy and spellcasters spell worksheet.
http://s557.photobucket.com/user/Phantomdoodler/media/Skilllist.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
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There are a few things that worry me here.
First, you've made spellcasting significantly stronger by only requiring one skill for it. And spellcasting is already pretty strong.
I disagree. Considering that most would have a casting stat at apex skill anyway, all it's really doing is allow the caster to be more rounded with other skills. Makes the caster stronger, but not spellcasting itself. And the advancement with Focus Items and such still has to deal with Power and Control ratings.
Perhaps with advancement over time that changes, but we haven't gotten there yet.
Second, you've made spellcasting significantly stronger by letting people defend reflexively with it. And again, it's already strong.
Agreed, I'm personally on the fence about it. But we have had a hard time finding a mechanic that would allow for the scene where Ramirez blocks the gunfire from a WCV with "I go first" speed, and various other close calls throughout the fiction.
Third, Athletics and Rapport seem more powerful than the other skills, while Burglary seems weak.
Uh... okay. There's been lots of talk about Athletics being too powerful. I won't argue that.
I consider the Core version of Rapport far more clearly defined and less powerful than it was in DFRPG.
Also, I'm not sure it's advisable to reduce the number of skill points available to Chest Deep and Submerged characters. I'd rather let Chest Deep characters get two Superb skills. And it seems wrong that Submerged characters can't make a traditional pyramid.
I agree with this.
The Fate Core pyramid is effectively equal to the 20 points of Feet Wet, even with the reduced skill list.
I think using Athletics for thrown attacks may be too useful, so Physique could be used for chucking thrown weapons up to a zone away.
If you're throwing to cause Stress, it should be Shoot. Making either of those skills into Stress causing skills should be worth a stunt at least.
Regarding magic, there are now only two stress tracks - physical and mental, so for evocation spells, wizards wont be able to blast away all day, especially if they have been mentally attacked via Provoke.And you still need Lore to be a half decent Wizard. The reflexive nature of spells is tied into the four action rules. I cant see why a wizard couldnt cast a quick shield-based rote spell (which would still cost him at least 1 mental stress). Using Will to resist attacks is just incorporating the new situational aspect rules regarding blocks and represents the wizards mental focus trying to cast the spell quickly. However, I think its entirely appropriate that you couldnt use any free invocations the spell provides if you are casting the spell in reaction to an attack. That stops players loading up a rote shield spell so that they are immune to surprise attacks.
I really don't like the idea of Provoke reducing the number of spells you can cast. That doesn't hold up to the fiction well.
In DFRPG, surprise attacks don't allow defend at all. That's why we put in a clause on the reactive magical defense that you have to be aware of the attack. Catch a wizard off guard, and he's paste.
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Agreed, I'm personally on the fence about it. But we have had a hard time finding a mechanic that would allow for the scene where Ramirez blocks the gunfire from a WCV with "I go first" speed, and various other close calls throughout the fiction.
Could this be an Alertness Stunt that enables the character to go first always only when defending himself or others from an attack? It might be similar to On Your Toes (YS 149) or something.
Not So Fast. Once per conflict, you go first regardless of your Alertness rating as long as your action is used to defend against an attack. Your action can defend yourself or someone else, but your action must always be defensive in order for this Stunt to apply.
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Regarding Defensive magic, I totally agree you needing to see the attack coming. This could all be handed with a stunt though, and maybe a Fate point cost if you think it would get over used. Something like:
Insta Shield
For 1 Fate point, you may cast a rote shielding spell in response to being attacked. Roll your Will against the attack, applying any free invocations for rote spell if you wish. If the shield holds, you may continue to maintain its effect.
Regarding skill points, sorry I meant to set the cap at superb for chest deep. Anyway, these should be only a guide- if you want to start your player with a 5 step pyramid go ahead. Just bear in mind you will have at least +1 in 15 out of the 20 available skills, rather than 15/25 in Dresden. It just seems a little broken to keep the same number of points if the number of skills are reduced:
Fate Core (P46):
The number of skills you get should be relative to the size of the skill list. Our default skill list has 18 skills, and the Great pyramid gives you a rating in 10 of them, which means every character has some capability in over half of the total number of things you can do, and there’s room for six PCs to peak (as in, to choose their three top skills) without overlap.
You can tweak this for individual games, especially if you adjust the skill cap. Just keep in mind that bigger pyramids mean more overlap between characters, unless your game has a longer skill list.
Regarding mental attacks using Provoke,that is meant to represent severe mental and psychological trauma, like being in an abusive relationship or being tortured, rather than just scaring someone ( the Provoke skill does say your relationship and circumstance must allow a Provoke attack to be valid). If emotional trauma caused you to question your own beliefs and shatter your confidence and sense of self, it would certainly hamper your magical abilities which rely on your belief in magic. I personally would rarely use mental damage from provoke.
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Hm. For contrast & reference, here's my fate-core-ized version of evocation.
Evocation:
Requirement: A high concept (or, with GM permission, other relevant aspect) indicating that you can work magic.
Cost: One refresh.
Limitations: Evocation should have some appropriate thematic limitations - perhaps you work with, say, just fire, force, and wind. Work this out individually; a spellcaster whose paradigm is the eastern elements of Wood and Metal would be very different from a hippy wannabe-druid or a retired ectomancer, even if the power is mechanically the same.
Effects:
1: You may defend yourself from attacks using your Will skill - if and only if you have an appropriate aspect placed on the scene, such as "wall of fire", "dome of force", "entropic shield", or the like. (Note that this will usually apply only to physical combat... but only usually; for example, one could easily imagine a wall of fire justifying using Will to defend against an opponent's attempts to intimidate you.)
2: You may attack with magic using either Fight or Shoot skills, as appropriate. Working magic at range is difficult, though; you're at -1 for each zone your target is away from you - though this can be offset with appropriate focus items.
3: You may create an advantage with magic, using Will, Fight, or Shoot - though Will is limited to personal range aspects, Fight is limited to the zone you're in, and Shoot is generally limited to offensive effects - though subject to GM discretion; a wall of fire might be acceptable, for example, as it's thematically pretty similar to using a gun for a "covering fire" type of aspect. As with ranged attacks, create an advantage takes a -1 penalty for each zone of range - again, this can be offset with appropriate focus items.
4: You may use "weapons" and "armor" in the form of focus items - for example, a really well-made wizard's staff might make all your magical attacks count as weapon rating four with an extra +4 to offset range penalties, or a blasting rod might allow fire attacks at weapon: 3 with +3 to offset range penalties, while a heavily enchanted leather duster might provide armor three, or a simple luck charm armor one. Mundane authorities are unlikely to recognize the true nature of such implements, but anyone clued in is likely to be aware that a wizard with a staff is armed and dangerous, and lore rolls to detect their magical nature get a +1 bonus per point of weapon or armor rating they offer.
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Now, someone like Dresden, a combat-focused wizard, probably has a number of stunts that add to this. Things like:
Magical Thug: For the cost of a point of mental stress, you can make a magical attack that counts as weapon rating two... or +1 weapon rating over whatever focus you're using.
Reactive Shield: You've practiced to the point where you can raise a particular type of shield with a thought; you don't need an established aspect in order to defend yourself with Will. (But you do still need appropriate justification - a force shield is unlikely to protect you from much in the way of social or mental attacks, for example.)
Focus, Focus, Focus: As long as you have an appropriate focus item in hand, you may use Will instead of Shoot for ranged attacks or create an advantage actions using magic.
Burn It All Down: +1 to any attack or create an advantage action using fire magic... but if you fail by two or more, the GM gets to place a scene aspect as the poorly controlled spell sets something else on fire. And yes, the GM gets a free tag on that, too.
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Very Nice!! There was me trying to fate-corise the dresden magic system, but using the extra rules is very refreshing. Mmmm
Heres my take on Evocation as an extra
Evocation
Permissions: You must have an appropriate aspect related to magic, based on the cost of this extra (at -2 refresh you must be a sorcerer or wizard)
Costs: -1 to -3 Refresh
Choose 1 element, plus 2 elements per additional -1 Refresh. You may produce the following magical effects when using those elements. each use of evocation inflicts 1 mental stress.
Overcome: Use Will to Counterspell an existing magical effect, or remove an aspect created by a wizard.
Create an Advantage: Use Lore to create an aspect appropriate to your elements. If at range, you suffer -1 per zone
Attack: Use Shoot to hit a target, at -1 per zone. Take a -2 to affect all targets in a zone, or divide total roll to choose selective targets.
Defend: Use Will to defend against an attack,but only if you have a suitable aspect in place such as Force shield or Wall of Fire.
Backlash and Fallout: If you fail your attempt, you may take backlash or fallout to make up the deficit: For each +1 to your roll, you may either take a point of physical or mental stress (either, not both), or cause fallout to the environment, causing destruction or injury to others.
You also gain 2 enchantment slots per -1 Refresh cost. Enchantment slots provide the following:
+1 per slot to a specific action/element (shield charm adding +1 to spirit defends, a blasting rod adding +1 to Fire attack rolls etc)
+1 per slot for +1 Armour rating (a toughened duster)
Spell usable once per session per slot. The spell has a specific effect chosen from above, but doesnt cost you mental stress. It uses an appropriate roll to determine the effect as above. It may take the form of a potion, in which case the effect is made using Lore, regardless of effect (rolled when drinking the potion)
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Hm. I deliberately designed my version to be a one refresh thing - it only moves one trapping, after all, and for the rest just provides justification for using, say, Shoot skill without a gun. (This is also why I removed mental stress as a cost - if any random mook can pick up a gun and shoot at weapon: 3 with their Shoot skill... the wizard with a blasting rod ought to be on at least equal footing. In DFRPG the mental stress cost is a necessary balance for evocation being able to attack with extremely high skill & weapon values - when I scaled that back, I also removed the stress cost.)
Focus & enchanted items are, in my version, treated basically the same as mundane weapons & armor & tools - a viewpoint that I extend to thaumaturgy, too:
From my perspective a fate core version of thaumaturgy is just "Well, you're a wizard, so of course you can use Crafts skill to make a potion of water breathing - same way a gadgeteer could use Crafts to make a scuba tank, or anyone could use resources to just buy such a thing." Of course, a really good crafter-wizard would add stunts, perhaps switching magic item creation from crafts to lore, or maybe a stunt to offset penalties due to inadequate materials for some categories of thaumaturgy - "Yeah, I can make a tracking spell with some hair and a shoe string. Gimme five minutes."
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Backlash and Fallout: I don't see any need to include general rules for these; they'd normally fall into fate core's "succeed at a cost" option.
I'm also a little confused as to why you have create an advantage listed as lore - it doesn't seem to match the rest of the power (or DFRPG evocation, either...)
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I disagree. Considering that most would have a casting stat at apex skill anyway, all it's really doing is allow the caster to be more rounded with other skills. Makes the caster stronger, but not spellcasting itself. And the advancement with Focus Items and such still has to deal with Power and Control ratings.
Perhaps with advancement over time that changes, but we haven't gotten there yet.
I admit I'm not sure what the difference between making casters stronger and making casting stronger is supposed to be.
Regardless, needing three skills is one of the big weaknesses of spellcasting. A good wizard isn't good at much else.
And the effect does grow somewhat more pronounced with advancement. But not much.
I consider the Core version of Rapport far more clearly defined and less powerful than it was in DFRPG.
Really?
So far as I can tell a bunch of stuff has been added to Rapport and nothing has been taken away.
If you're throwing to cause Stress, it should be Shoot. Making either of those skills into Stress causing skills should be worth a stunt at least.
Yeah. That's what I was talking about when I said Athletics seemed too good.
Regarding starting skill points, since there are 5 less skills than Dresden (80%), each power level should have 80% of the previous ratings. I have actually been a little generous here since the correct amount should be 16/20/24/28. Actually i think 15/20/25/30 would be more appropriate.
Direct proportional reduction isn't always a good idea.
Suppose you went with fantazero's four skills.
Move, Talk, Fight, Magic.
Direct proportional reduction would give you Up To Your Waist characters with 4 points split between those skills.
Such characters would be vastly weaker than normal Up To Your Waist Characters, since they'd be Fair or Average at their best skill.
Direct proportional reduction effectively forces people to diversify their skill points, giving them a broader flatter pyramid. That tends to make characters weaker, since it reduces their effectiveness at what they most care about in exchange for boosting skills that matter little to them.
That's the lesson I learned when I tried making a shorter skill list. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,31497.msg1350511.html#msg1350511)
Burglary does cover hacking and other elicit technical skills, so its pretty useful.
Burglary is rarely used in canon DFRPG. You've merged other skills, and left Burglary alone. Not really a good plan.
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Direct proportional reduction isn't always a good idea.
Suppose you went with fantazero's four skills.
Move, Talk, Fight, Magic.
Direct proportional reduction would give you Up To Your Waist characters with 4 points split between those skills.
Such characters would be vastly weaker than normal Up To Your Waist Characters, since they'd be Fair or Average at their best skill.
Direct proportional reduction effectively forces people to diversify their skill points, giving them a broader flatter pyramid. That tends to make characters weaker, since it reduces their effectiveness at what they most care about in exchange for boosting skills that matter little to them.
I am confused. In your own post, you reduce your skills to 10 and
"If using this revision, divide everyone's number of skill points by 2 to keep things sane."
Yet you seem to be against me reducing the total skills to 20 and reducing skill points by 20%
But I agree that just reducing skill points in proportion doesnt work when the numbers get low. Actually the whole pyramid thing goes haywire with a small number of skills. Fate Accelerated gives you 6 skills with Great (1), Good (2), Fair (2), Average (1) distribution with 15 points of skills. So I would give out 20/20/25/30 as for my first post. As I mentioned earlier, this is just my personal preference to keep things "sane"
Burglary is rarely used in canon DFRPG. You've merged other skills, and left Burglary alone. Not really a good plan.
This is Fate cores list. I was just pointing out the changes they made. I cant take credit for that :)
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Hm. I deliberately designed my version to be a one refresh thing - it only moves one trapping, after all, and for the rest just provides justification for using, say, Shoot skill without a gun. (This is also why I removed mental stress as a cost - if any random mook can pick up a gun and shoot at weapon: 3 with their Shoot skill... the wizard with a blasting rod ought to be on at least equal footing. In DFRPG the mental stress cost is a necessary balance for evocation being able to attack with extremely high skill & weapon values - when I scaled that back, I also removed the stress cost.)
Focus & enchanted items are, in my version, treated basically the same as mundane weapons & armor & tools - a viewpoint that I extend to thaumaturgy, too:
From my perspective a fate core version of thaumaturgy is just "Well, you're a wizard, so of course you can use Crafts skill to make a potion of water breathing - same way a gadgeteer could use Crafts to make a scuba tank, or anyone could use resources to just buy such a thing." Of course, a really good crafter-wizard would add stunts, perhaps switching magic item creation from crafts to lore, or maybe a stunt to offset penalties due to inadequate materials for some categories of thaumaturgy - "Yeah, I can make a tracking spell with some hair and a shoe string. Gimme five minutes."
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Backlash and Fallout: I don't see any need to include general rules for these; they'd normally fall into fate core's "succeed at a cost" option.
I'm also a little confused as to why you have create an advantage listed as lore - it doesn't seem to match the rest of the power (or DFRPG evocation, either...)
I do like your approach. Its very clean and simple. My only niggle is that in the books, evocation does tend to wear out spellcasters. Having Harry continuously blast opponents without signs of fatigue doesn't seem quite right to be, although I agree about fallout and backlash. Much easier solution.
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So something like this, building upon all of your rules
Evocation
Permission:A high concept (or, with GM permission, other relevant aspect) indicating that you can work magic.
Cost: One refresh.
Limitations: Evocation should have some appropriate thematic limitations - perhaps you work with, say, just fire, force, and wind. Work this out individually; a spellcaster whose paradigm is the eastern elements of Wood and Metal would be very different from a hippy wannabe-druid or a retired ectomancer, even if the power is mechanically the same. Each player must choose 3 elements to be able to use. Typically a character will be able to use three elements.
Effects:
Overcome: You may counterspell an existing situational aspect created by magic, opposing your Will against the Will of the spell caster, for evocation magic, or the spells casting roll for thaumaturgy spells (see below)
Create an Advantage: You may create an advantage with magic, using Will, Fight, or Shoot - though Will is limited to personal range aspects, Fight is limited to the zone you're in, and Shoot is generally limited to offensive effects - though subject to GM discretion; a wall of fire might be acceptable, for example, as it's thematically pretty similar to using a gun for a "covering fire" type of aspect. As with ranged attacks, create an advantage takes a -1 penalty for each zone of range - again, this can be offset with appropriate focus items.
Attack: You may attack with magic using either Fight or Shoot skills, as appropriate. Working magic at range is difficult, though; you're at -1 for each zone your target is away from you - though this can be offset with appropriate enchanted items.
Defend: You may defend yourself from attacks using your Will skill - if and only if you have an appropriate aspect placed on the scene, such as "wall of fire", "dome of force", "entropic shield", or the like. (Note that this will usually apply only to physical combat... but only usually; for example, one could easily imagine a wall of fire justifying using Will to defend against an opponent's attempts to intimidate you.)
Enchanted items: You may create magical items, potions, weapons or items. You gain 2 Enchantment item slots which can be assigned as follows:
A focus item providing +1 bonus to a spellcasting action with an element/type, or +2 when using a specific spell (shield charm adding +1 to spirit defends, a blasting rod adding +1 to Fire attack rolls etc).
An item that has a Weapon rating of 1 for each slot assigned, when casting attack spells (blasting rod, staff)
An item with an Armour rating of 1 for each 2 slots assigned to it (a toughened duster)
An item permanently enchanted with a situational aspect, such as a penny farthing that has the Lightning speed aspect placed it on it. You gain 1 free invocation per session for each slot devoted to the item. Alternatively, each slot could be a potion- once drunk, the imbiber gains the aspect with one free invocation.
Some possible stunts:
Magic Utility Belt
You gain an additional 2 Enchantment slots
Magical Thug: For the cost of a point of mental stress, you can make a magical attack that counts as weapon rating two... or +1 weapon rating over whatever enchanted item you're using.
Reactive Shield: You've practiced to the point where you can raise a particular type of shield with a thought; you don't need an established aspect in order to defend yourself with Will. (But you do still need appropriate justification - a force shield is unlikely to protect you from much in the way of social or mental attacks, for example.)
Focus, Focus, Focus: As long as you have an appropriate focus item in hand, you may use Will instead of Shoot for ranged attacks or create an advantage actions using magic.
Burn It All Down: +1 to any attack or create an advantage action using fire magic... but if you fail by two or more, the GM gets to place a scene aspect as the poorly controlled spell sets something else on fire. And yes, the GM gets a free tag on that, too.
Thaumaturgy
Permission:A high concept (or, with GM permission, other relevant aspect) indicating that you can work magic.
Cost: One refresh.
Limitations: Thaumaturgy allows you to do pretty much anything. If you wish to play a focused practitioner, with only knowledge of a single type of thaumaturgy, or a narrow theme, you gain +1 with all uses of it.
Thaumaturgy is all about preparation and ritual. This is really a series of create advantage actions using appropriate skills (Lore to research or prepare the ritual, Scholar for mundane research, Resources to acquire ritual items, Contact and Rapport to seek help, Crafts to create ritual items, Burglary to acquire symbolic items, Survival to locate a good ritual site etc.). Once the preparations are complete (the physical construct) the spell must be cast. This requires a roll based on what you are trying to do; Rapport for Summoning, Will for Binding, Lore for Divination and Potions, Craft for Conjuring and Crafting Items, Deceit for Veils, Will for Wards, Provoke for Transformation and Disruption, Athletics for Transportation magic, Lore for Worldwalking. Obviously, this is likely to be high, especially for very powerful spells. If you are desperate, you may take consequences, adding the corresponding level to your total.
Casting Time: Thaumaturgy spells take a little more time than evocation spells. Time must be spent to harness the energies in the spell. Each round you may channel a number of invocation bonuses equal to twice your Will. If you want to rush things, each additional +2 bonus will cost you 1 point of mental stress.
Disruption: If someone manages to destroy alter or damage your physical construct, or attack you while you are casting, things can get very messy indeed, resulting in uncontrolled magic spilling into the world, with the degree of destruction based on the power of the spell- use the current bonus being applied from invocations etc as a guide. The caster is likely to take this as shifts of Physical or mental damage
For example, Harry is attempting to prepare a tracking spell to find a lost child. This will require a Lore against a Legendary (+8) opposition. Harry needs at least one symbolic link for the spell, so he asks her parents to look around her room, using Investigate to create the aspect *Samantha's Hair, with two invocations. He then uses his Lore to first prepare the ritual space, and creates a *Circle of Chalk in an alleyway near the house, gaining a free invocation. He makes a Lore roll, using all three invocations, so he gets a total of 10. Until sundown, he will be able to track her whereabouts. Its getting late so he hits the streets....
Victor Sells wants to create a heart-exploding spell. The unfortunate target will have to make a Physique roll against his Will roll or suffer physical stress for each shift that gets through. To cast the spell, Sells will need to make a very high total (over 30) to guarantee killing the target , so he needs some serious research to pull this off. He is desperate so will take an extreme consequence *Power Mad which he can add 8 to the roll. He also takes *Bargain with a Demon, a severe consequence for another +6, and a moderate consequence *Trapped by the Storm, for another +4. He then uses Lore to create a *Ritual Circle (+4), Scholar to be in the right place for *Eye of the Storm (+2), Provoke to place *Emotional Trauma on his wife and the Beckitts (+6). Finally, he uses Lore to ritually kill a rabbit with a spoon, using *Dead Rabbit to gain a further +2, and a further +2 from *Victims Blood, an aspect he created earlier. Thats a healthy +34 bonus to the Will roll.With a Will of +3, Victor can safely channel +6 of bonuses each round- it will take him 6 rounds to cast the spell, assuming no meddling wizards disrupt his spell...
Enchanted items: You may create magical items, potions, weapons or items. You gain 2 Enchantment item slots which can be assigned as follows:
A focus item providing +1 bonus to a spellcasting action with an element/type, or +2 when using a specific spell (shield charm adding +1 to spirit defends, a blasting rod adding +1 to Fire attack rolls etc).
An item with an Armour rating of 1 for each 2 slots assigned to it (a toughened duster)
An item permanently enchanted with a situational aspect, such as a penny farthing that has the Lightning speed aspect placed it on it. You gain 1 free invocation per session for each slot devoted to the item. Alternatively, each slot could be a potion- once drunk, the imbiber gains the aspect with one free invocation.
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That looks really neat.
I have an question or observation about Thaumaturgy. You say use Lore for Divination, Craft for Conjuring, Will for everything else. That's understandable. Why not use more Skills? A broader base of Skills?
I might do something different. Rapport for Summoning, Will for Binding, Lore for Divination and Potions, Craft for Conjuring and Crafting Items, Deceit for Veils, Will for Wards, Provoke for Transformation and Disruption, Athletics for Transportation magic, Lore for Worldwalking.
Thematic Thaumaturgy would have each practitioner of the Art sort of create their own path of magic. If an Ectomancer fancies themselves to be something like a ghost whisperer, helping to solve crimes and put the dead to rest, then they might use Empathy, Rapport, and Lore for their magic. If another Ectomancer sees themselves as Lord of the Dead, a necromancer in the dark sense of the word, their same spells might use Provoke, Will, and Lore instead. One uses their magic for cooperation, the other for domination.
That kind of set up might make Wizards a bit weaker because it hampers being equally good at all types of Thaumaturgy. It might make Focused Practitioners a bit stronger, too, as they can focus on being really good and one type of thing. Wizards on the other hand have the ability to become really good in a wide range of magical practices. That's a fair trade off, right? I sort of like the idea of different personalities having affinities for certain kinds of magic. There are people like Warden Luccio who are awesome at Crafting magics. She obviously favors the Craft Skill as well.
In that line of thinking, I might let each player of a spellcaster picks their own Skills for their magic based on the characters training and/or personality. This isn't to over-complicate things, but to give Wizards more than 3 Skills they might seek out to be their apex Skills. A rule of thumb would be that the Wizard explains how this fits into her worldview. Maybe it's how she was trained by a particular mentor or a specific school of magic. Maybe it's a rejection of those aforementioned institution to embrace something that sits better with his or her personality and ethical code. Harry Dresden, most likely, does not do magic like Uncle Justin. To prevent someone from having a single skill work for all their magic, I would have a rule that says something like, you can only use a Skill twice in your pantheon of magic. For example: If you use the Will Skill for Wards and for Veils, you can't use it for Binding, you'll have to use something else appropriate (like Provoke).
Also, was it your intention for Evocation to focus only on physical conflicts/combat? If that's the case, I gain some insight into the questions I have in my virginal thread on the forum.
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Yes more skills is great. I was going to expand those when I look at what exactly you can do with magic in more detail. Those skills work for me. Some very interesting ideas there. I love spellcaster's using bespoke skills, but i would love to keep your
Rapport for Summoning, Will for Binding, Lore for Divination and Potions, Craft for Conjuring and Crafting Items, Deceit for Veils, Will for Wards, Provoke for Transformation and Disruption, Athletics for Transportation magic, Lore for Worldwalking.
since that makes a lot of sense.
Regarding evocations, mostly yes, especially for damage. Quick counterspells and veils are possible with evocation, but I cant see placing mental aspects in people or inflicting mental stress - thats more thaumaturgy, in my opinion
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I am confused. In your own post, you reduce your skills to 10 and
"If using this revision, divide everyone's number of skill points by 2 to keep things sane."
Yet you seem to be against me reducing the total skills to 20 and reducing skill points by 20%
I reduced the skill count by 60% and the skill point totals by 50%. If I had reduced the skill point totals by 60%, there would have been problems.
Similarly, there will be problems if you reduce the skill count and the skill point totals by 20%.
You should also read crusher_bob's posts later in the thread I linked. He points out how the changes I was suggesting can weaken characters, even though it theoretically offers more skill per character.
This is Fate cores list. I was just pointing out the changes they made. I cant take credit for that :)
Doesn't matter if it's default Fate Core or not. It's still probably not a good idea.
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Less Skills= More Better
Burglary and Stealth and can be rolled into one skill
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I agree that consolidation of Skills is a good thing. When you do something like that would you also be mandated to decrease the amount of Skill Points you give you when creating a character? To put this in context... for a Dresden Files game, if you were to adopt PHYSIQUE (Might + Endurance), FIGHT (Fists + Weapons), drop Presence to split it up into RAPPORT and PROVOKE -- would you reduce Chest Deep from 30 Skill points to ... ? Or just keep it the same because the difference is negligible?
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I agree that consolidation of Skills is a good thing. When you do something like that would you also be mandated to decrease the amount of Skill Points you give you when creating a character? To put this in context... for a Dresden Files game, if you were to adopt PHYSIQUE (Might + Endurance), FIGHT (Fists + Weapons), drop Presence to split it up into RAPPORT and PROVOKE -- would you reduce Chest Deep from 30 Skill points to ... ? Or just keep it the same because the difference is negligible?
I'd do less Skills points as well. Same with Refresh.
Stream Line that sucker.
Also less Dice Rolls unless the outcome Is Interesting.
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I do like your approach. Its very clean and simple. My only niggle is that in the books, evocation does tend to wear out spellcasters. Having Harry continuously blast opponents without signs of fatigue doesn't seem quite right to be, although I agree about fallout and backlash. Much easier solution.
A reasonable niggle... but consider: Sprinting everywhere would tend to wear out a runner - but there's nothing in the fate core rules to enforce that. If you wanted to make it very clear, though, you could add in a sentence like "Extended or continuous use of evocation tends to be exceptionally tiring compared to even strenuous physical activity; if this comes up in play, treat your effective endurance for spellcasting as your Will skill minus two."
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I reduced the skill count by 60% and the skill point totals by 50%. If I had reduced the skill point totals by 60%, there would have been problems.
Similarly, there will be problems if you reduce the skill count and the skill point totals by 20%.
Err ok. So reducing skill count by 20%, Skill points by 16.7% (the same as your ratio), I am making that 17/21/25/29. I would still call that 20/20/25/30, just for easiness, but you could use those.
So I converted my players characters , using the reduced skills and skill points (Submerged 25 skills with 35 points, now 20 skills with 30 point chars) and it worked perfectly fine. Actually, I just translated the skills to the new ones, and in most cases the skill totals were around 30, give or take 1 or 2 points.
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A reasonable niggle... but consider: Sprinting everywhere would tend to wear out a runner - but there's nothing in the fate core rules to enforce that. If you wanted to make it very clear, though, you could add in a sentence like "Extended or continuous use of evocation tends to be exceptionally tiring compared to even strenuous physical activity; if this comes up in play, treat your effective endurance for spellcasting as your Will skill minus two."
Maybe you can cast a number of evocation spells each scene equal to your Physique. Each extra multiple of that subtracts -1 from all spellcasting rolls.
So Harry has Physique +4. He can cast 4 spells per scene with no penalty, 5 to 8 spells per scene at -1, 9-12 spells at -2. A bit of bookkeeping, but could be handled with a simple tally count.
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Err ok. So reducing skill count by 20%, Skill points by 16.7% (the same as your ratio), I am making that 17/21/25/29.
I wouldn't really recommend that. You have to keep the demands of the pyramid in mind.
Absolutely any reduction to the skill point total of Chest Deep characters will be a hit to the power of some characters. 30 skill points is exactly enough for 2 Superb skills. And since the revised skills are not twice as wide as the original ones, characters made with them will be Superb at fewer things.
Same goes for Feet In The Water with regard to Great skills.
It's not the end of the world, but...it's a reason to keep the old skill totals at those levels.
Plus, those numbers give ugly pyramids. 16/22/25/30 would be prettier. As would your suggestion of 20/20/25/30. 18/20/25/30 wouldn't be too ugly either.
Incidentally, 25 skills with a skill cap of Great makes for ugly pyramids. If you want to cut points somewhere, I suggest doing it at Up To Your Waist.
(All "ugliness" judgements are subjective, I'm afraid, but I expect that I'm not alone in my tastes.)