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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Bedurndurn on April 09, 2013, 02:12:09 AM

Title: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: Bedurndurn on April 09, 2013, 02:12:09 AM

So our group played the Neutral Grounds adventure, had fun and now we're about to start an Up To Your Waist level game set in Boston. We did all the character background/city creation stuff this last week, but we haven't done any of the mechanics of character creation yet. Can I get some feedback on the aspects and character build I've got so far?

I'll put the big blocks of text in spoiler tags so it'll (hopefully) be easier to read:

The Rest of the Party

• Det. Martin O'Shaughnessy - Psychic BPD Detective with 6 months till retirement
• Mei Ling Yi - Kung Fu Librarian of the Boston Public Library
• Thomas St. Germaine - Immortal Diplomat for the Italian Consulate
• Zoe - Late Blooming Steampunk-themed Sorceress
• Melissa McCarthy - Philanthropic Hotel Heiress Wizard

My PC: Rookie Detective Rebecca Sullivan

Template: Supernatural Guardian

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Becky's family carries a curse. Unlike the tremendously counterproductive curse of the Loup-Garrou, St. Patrick was significantly less drunk when he cursed one child in a generation from Suibhne the Bastard’s clan to safeguard humanity from supernatural threats to make up for Old Suibhne's truly prodigious list of sins. Said child grows up with tremendous physical gifts, but is beset by visions of wrongs that must be righted and people that must be protected (sometimes from the things created by other, poorly planned curses). Unfortunately it's been about 50 or so generations since Old Suibhne, so literally anyone who claims *any* amount of Irish ancestry stands a fair chance of being counted among his descendants (2^50th is a tremendously huge number after all), so it tends to be a bit of a surprise to those affected. As fate would have it, that burden landed on Becky's small shoulders when the previous holder (a perfectly lovely middle-aged Chinese man named Fei Yung) finally got eviscerated by a Jade Court vampire some time before his 44th birthday. St. Patrick was a nice guy with his heart in the right place, but he really had no understanding of exponential population growth, bless his curse-happy soul.

(As a side note, this was our group's 10 minute resolution to my request of, "I want to play Buffy the Vampire Slayer, how can we make that fit with this universe?" She ended up a detective because Martin's player wanted a PC partner and it seemed like it could fit.)

Aspects:
High Concept - Boston's Finest Supernatural Guardian
Trouble - I'm on an (involuntary) mission from God.
If you were from where I'm from, you'd be dead.

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Phase 1 - Background

Dorchester-born, Rebecca is the youngest of the seven children of Karen Sullivan. Her father, Detective Roger Sullivan (partner of Detective Martin O'Shaughnessy) was killed in the line of duty when Rebecca was only seven. Karen did the best she could, but raising seven kids (aged 7-16 when Roger died) is a full time job, and Roger's death benefits only paid so much, forcing the family to move to a low-income area of South Boston. There Rebecca grew up hard, constantly getting into fights and other delinquent behavior. At 16, when she started coming into her supernatural power, she crippled another girl in a fight at school. Only Detective O'Shaughnessy’s connections in Boston's legal system and her father's legacy kept her from jail time and got her on the right track. Rebecca found her way (with no small amount of help from her father's connections) to the criminal justice program at UMass - Boston and from there the MA police academy.

It's better to be lucky than good

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Phase 2 - Rising Conflict

Rebecca joined the Boston PD where she quickly earned a reputation for bravery and her uncanny capacity for breaking even Boston's biggest and meanest in the interview room. Though she lacks an experienced detective's eye for detail, her supernatural nature led her to be in the right place at the right time often enough to make detective well before her mundane skills really warranted.

Tiny bull in a china shop

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Phase 3 - The Story

Adventure: Fire in the Disco

Star: Me!
Costars: Thomas St. Germaine and Detective Martin O'Shaughnessy

Becky's power led her to an ill-conceived raid on Le Petit Morte (a nightclub operated by a White Court vampire). She ended up saving a member of the Italian consulate (Thomas St. Germaine) along with a handful of college kids, though her plan (if 'Hey! Let's go kick the hell out of that guy' can truly be classified as a plan) was reckless, put her partner Martin in unnecessary danger and ended with the nightclub burning to the ground (thankfully with no civilian casualties).

Finally! Something I'm allowed to punch!

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Phase 4 - Guest Star

Adventure: It Pays to Know Me

Star: Thomas St. Germaine
Costar: Mei Ling Yi

When Thomas St. Germaine, fancy Italian diplomat, offered her a trip to New Orleans and a seat in his luxury box at the Superbowl, Becky thought her family's curse to safeguard humanity was finally looking up. She was a little miffed when Thomas bade her 'arrivederci' and headed to first class while she was ushered to coach, but hey, a Superbowl's a Superbowl, right? She was delighted when Thomas introduced her to a few of his fancy diplomatic friends, then substantially less delighted when they spent the rest of the evening talking to each other in a variety of European languages that she didn't understand. The food in the box was good (they had these delicious crab thingies), but their waiter scoffed when she tried to order any of her favorite beers. Then to cap off the night, after the blackout and all-too-brief-for-her-mood dustup with some Voudoun jerk, known-murderer Ray Lewis won.

Note to self: Follow Martin's advice and don't date international men of mystery. It sucks and you feel like an idiot.

I get by with a little help from my friends.

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Phase 5 - Guest Star Redux

Adventure: Snow Patrol
Star: Martin O'Shaughnessy
Costar: Zoe

Becky and Martin end up in way over their heads when a simple drug bust turns into a world-class ambush when the perps turn out to have automatic weapons. The pair are saved when a stranger aids their escape via some supernatural mojo of her own.

So that's the aspects from going through the phases. Like I said, none of us really have Fate experience, so I'm not sure if these are good aspects or not.

So here's the crunchy bits of the character:

Skills
Great(2)   : Might, Intimidate
Good (2)   : Athletics, Weapons
Fair (3)   : Rapport, Empathy, Stealth
Average (5)   : Conviction, Discipline, Endurance, Presence, Something?

Stunts/Powers
   Supernatural Strength (-4)
   Supernatural Toughness (-4)
   The Catch (Pure Mortals (at least 6 billion of them +2, Researchable +1)) +3
   Visions of St. Patrick (0) - A re-theme of Cassandra's Tears

Adjusted Refresh: 2

So here's my thoughts about the crunchy bits:

• I want a bunch more skill points than I actually get. Looking up, I didn't even manage to grab any of Alertness, Investigation, Contacts, Guns, or Fists. Probably one of those should replace Steath at Fair.
• Weapons and Fists being separate skills is kind of a bummer. For this character, who can pick up pretty much anything, Weapons is probably my best bet. (Fists is a real :P skill, it's an attack with no bonus damage and a defense against almost nothing [in a setting where people are going to shoot guns and fireballs at you].)
• Character-wise, I want her to be strong (I bought Supernatural strength after all) and snarky, so that's why they ended up as my peak skills. I have no idea how well that'll work in play.
• Should I ditch Empathy and Rapport at Fair? I'm obviously a much better playing bad-cop instead of good-cop, should I leave that role to another member of the party? If so, any recommendations on what to pick up in their place?
• My catch is pure mortals. We're planning on a mob-heavy campaign, so that's probably going to come up pretty often. Is that too broad/too narrow/cheesy/just right/etc for 3 points? Is supernatural toughness a good choice or would a mix of toughness and recovery be better? Maybe just recovery (she's certainly strong enough that she could wear a vest in most situations and her background supports it)?
• I've got 1 more point of refresh that I could spend. How/should I spend it? My mental defense is currently 1, so moving that trapping to Intimidate would be prudent. I could probably move using melee weapons to Might (call it 'What I lack in skill, I make up in enthusiasm') and that would free up a Good-level slot. Maybe Infuriate?
• Is Supernatural strength worth it? I could go Inhuman Strength/Speed for the same point total. Alternatively, Inhuman Strength and 2 more free fate points? Maybe Inhuman Strength and 2 more stunts? Currently Rebecca is really, really awesome at grappling (Fantastic, actually), but maybe that's not a prudent way to spend points?
• Am I just way overthinking things? As a group we mainly play fairly combat-heavy D&D and Savage Worlds games, so I'm used to working a lot on the crunch of my characters. Most of the OW-monsters don't seem that tough though, so I'll probably be okay regardless, right?

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 09, 2013, 06:09:58 AM

Character looks fine.

Skill list could use some refinement, though. The skills you listed in your first thought would all be worth adding, and I think lowering Rapport and Empathy would probably be a good idea. Your character doesn't sound like a smooth social operator.

A stunt to swing around large heavy melee weapons with Might sounds like a good idea to me. (All melee weapons might be a bit broad.) It would open up a lot of room in your skill list, and Great attacks at weapon 7 are nothing to sneeze at.

The Catch seems about right. I could quibble about the exact formula, but that's rarely productive.

Supernatural Strength is definitely worth it. It's not clearly superior to other options, but it's pretty awesome. With it and Great Might, you can lift or break with an effective skill of 10. That's enough to lift cars or crush them barehanded.

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on April 09, 2013, 12:37:56 PM

I'd flip Might and Weapons, at the very least.  Your Sup. Strength gives you more than enough bonuses to Might for the majority of its applications, and if you're fighting with weapons you're less likely to grapple.  +1 to Weapons will be a bigger deal than -1 on Might (you're still an effective strength of 9, still crushing cars barehanded).

Personally, I'd make the skill list look a bit more like this:

Great(2): Weapons, Intimidate (You've got your attacks as accurate as can be both socially and physically this way.  With Intimidate this high, you're probably going to be a bit of a bully, solving cases through brute force rather than investigative skill.)

Good (2): Athletics, Endurance (That stress box is important, and you need to be able to not get shot.)

Fair (3): Investigation, Alertness, Might (You're still bending steel with your bare hands at an effective "Legendary" for most things, you grapple at Great, and now you have some cop skills.  Additionally Alertness at fair means you'll go somewhere in the middle of combat rather than the end.)

Average (5): Conviction, Discipline, Presence, Guns, Drive (With your aspects, all stealth'll get compelled away anyway.  Drive gives you knowledge of city streets, etc.  It's more useful than you'd think when you're in pursuit on foot.  Guns is really here because a cop should have it.)

Just a suggestion.  Feel free to completely ignore it, copy it, or adjust it.  I've got my reasoning there, but this isn't by any means the only good skill set you could have, just how I'd refine it.  I'm sure other posters would disagree with it, and the utility of some skills depends on the GM and playstyle (Drive vs. Contacts at Average, specifically). 

One thing, though.  I'd only ever make Might when I had strength powers my peak skill if I were planning on Grappling or had a stunt to make it more useful in combat.  Hell, I've got a character in our games with Sup. Strength who didn't take Might because she figured the +6 was plenty and wanted more skills.  She's still the strongest on the team and the damage bonus is independent of skills.

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: easl on April 09, 2013, 07:04:25 PM

• I want a bunch more skill points than I actually get. Looking up, I didn't even manage to grab any of Alertness, Investigation, Contacts, Guns, or Fists. Probably one of those should replace Steath at Fair.

There is no ideal way in cannon to handle this, but there are a couple of kludges.  Kludge 1: take an aspect like "jack of all trades" or "been around the block" specifically designed to let you use fate points to shore up lower skills.  Kludge 2: take a stunt.  Remember, stunts can be changed between sessions so having one lets you effectively shift around a little bonus on a regular basis. Kludge 3: take Beast Change but rename it something like "broad training" and have it be purely internal. take all your knowledge and social skills in one set, and all your physical skills in another.  In essence, for -1 you double your skill allocations.  It may not be a great fit for your detective but I think this third option works well with spy- or military- type templates, where the character is expected to have a decent, upstanding moral side but be able to switch to killer in a few seconds.  Kludge 4: increase your Conviction and take Guide My Hand.  Link it to your prime concept (protecting the city or whatever).  This lets you use a fate point to substitute Conviction for any skill.  Remember, one of the True Faith wielders in the Dresden Files is an atheist, so nothing says Guide has to have a deity as a source.  Any powerful ideology will do.

• My catch is pure mortals. We're planning on a mob-heavy campaign, so that's probably going to come up pretty often. Is that too broad/too narrow/cheesy/just right/etc for 3 points? Is supernatural toughness a good choice or would a mix of toughness and recovery be better? Maybe just recovery (she's certainly strong enough that she could wear a vest in most situations and her background supports it)?

Personally I'd give you the 4-point catch because its incredibly easy to figure that out on the fly.  The moment Henchmen 1 tears through your defenses, Big Bad observing from the background (or getting the after-action report) knows your weakness. But that's just me.

Maybe the best way to handle the cost is to ask yourself how easy YOU, the player, want it to be to find out your catch.  Remember this is storytelling; for 0, practically nobody in the story will put 2 and 2 together, even if its obvious.  For -1, its probably like an action movie: the story antagonists will be inordinately slow to figure it out, but the smart ones will do so eventually.  For -2, you are making your personal story more realistic, where the bad guys are as smart as the players and figure stuff out after one or two encounters.   Rather than asking what the cost ought to be (based on realism), ask yourself which of those story types do you want your pc to star in? Do you want finding our your catch to be a regular part of your game sessions, something that happens occasionally, or something that never happens?[/list]

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: JDK002 on April 10, 2013, 04:30:25 PM

While my intent isn't to argue catch values, but it bares mention that +4 catch isn't possible with the Supernatural tier powers.  A Catch cannot give a complete rebate, the power always has to cost something.  This applies to anything that gives a refresh rebate.

I only mention this because the OP sad he and his group were new to the game.

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: Taran on April 10, 2013, 04:51:44 PM

well...it's possible for the purposes of research and availability - but it's still going to cost 1 refresh.  It might matter later if they're going to upgrade to a bigger power.

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: Bedurndurn on April 11, 2013, 03:21:24 AM

Thanks for the advice everybody! I think I'm going to go with InFerrum's skill suggestions (You make a good point about Great weapons being more useful than Great Might, especially since the lift/breaking trappings are getting +6 from my strength power). I'll also keep the cost of the catch in mind if I get to add more powers down the line.

I had a bit of a questions about the 'spirit' of the Fate rules. You guys mentioned that I'd probably get compelled out of a stealthy approach to problems, so Stealth wasn't a good skill choice for me. Is it a compel if I'm asked to do a straightforward approach if being stealthy wasn't really an option anyway (say because I've left it at Mediocre?), or is that not a compel because my actions aren't restricted because I had no viable way to be stealthy in the first place?

That might not be clear, so I'll rephrase. If my aspects dictate a certain approach to a problem, is being 'forced' to act in that manner a compel (and thus a fate point) even though I have no relevant skills or abilities to approach the problem a different way?

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: toturi on April 11, 2013, 04:54:04 AM

I'd still consider it a Compel, even if the particular approach isn't likely to be successful.

Consider - Without the Compel, the character would still be able to roll the dice, tag Aspects and could possibly manage to get a good result. With the Compel, there is no longer that possibility. You have given it up, for a Fate Point.

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: Vairelome on April 11, 2013, 05:20:34 AM

Also, if you have time to prepare and some imagination, even base-Mediocre Stealth can succeed without a ton of FPs backing it up.  If you use Declarations or Maneuvers with any of Athletics, Investigation, Alertness, Might, or Discipline, you could set up a few free tags and get a quite respectable bonus.

As toturi said, though, your Aspects call for a compel to require some sort of straightforward approach.  (You still have options--compels never state "you must take exactly these actions"--but if you accept the compel and the FP, your course of action must be consistent with the Aspects that were compelled.)

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: toturi on April 11, 2013, 09:09:02 AM

I'd like to add that some GMs take a different view on this issue. Some GMs see it that if the course of action does not land the character into more trouble or substantively hinder the character, then the player does not get a Fate Point. Most often I have seen this line of thought used for compels on the Trouble Aspect.

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: Taran on April 11, 2013, 11:56:18 AM

What everyone else said.  Also note that you are playing with a group.  Maybe you don't have a very good stealth skill but your wizard may be able to lay on a fine veil.  Refusing to allow the wizard to veil you might be part of the compel...

It has to complicate things.  If your whole group was going to crash a party anyways, then you probably wouldn't get a FP.  If your party is trying to infiltrate quietly and you start smashing up the place, that'll be a compel.

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 11, 2013, 10:05:19 PM

Quote from: Bedurndurn on April 11, 2013, 03:21:24 AM

If my aspects dictate a certain approach to a problem, is being 'forced' to act in that manner a compel (and thus a fate point) even though I have no relevant skills or abilities to approach the problem a different way?

If the GM uses your Aspects to force you to do something, it's a Compel.

So if the GM says "you're a TINY BULL IN A CHINA SHOP so you can't sneak in disguised as a maid" then that's a Compel, but if the GM says "feel free to try to sneak in disguised as a maid, but bear in mind you probably won't succeed" then that's not a Compel.

Generally speaking, the GM shouldn't hand out Compels that don't meaningfully complicate the lives of their players.

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: toturi on April 12, 2013, 03:25:09 AM

Quote from: Taran on April 11, 2013, 11:56:18 AM

It has to complicate things.  If your whole group was going to crash a party anyways, then you probably wouldn't get a FP.  If your party is trying to infiltrate quietly and you start smashing up the place, that'll be a compel.

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on April 11, 2013, 10:05:19 PM

Generally speaking, the GM shouldn't hand out Compels that don't meaningfully complicate the lives of their players.

Therein lies the crux of the matter. What is meant by "meaningfully complicate"? If I was going to have my character storm the front door anyway, does that mean that it is not a Compel? If I storm the front door while the rest of the group infiltrate the compound, does it count as a Compel? The character was inclined to crash the party anyway. I have seen GMs use the player's original course of action as a litmus test for handing out Compels and FPs, thinking that since the player was going to do it anyway, then it obviously does not meaningfully complicate his life.

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: Cadd on April 12, 2013, 10:13:59 AM

Quote from: toturi on April 12, 2013, 03:25:09 AM

I have seen GMs use the player's original course of action as a litmus test for handing out Compels and FPs, thinking that since the player was going to do it anyway, then it obviously does not meaningfully complicate his life.

I can absolutely understand that reasoning, but it does go against the note on self-compelling and retroactive fate points in the RAW. That passage to me means that whether or not the player was being compelled beforehand or not, if acting along the characters Aspects create complications, that's grounds for a FP.

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on April 12, 2013, 01:20:20 PM

It's tough. 

From a GM perspective, its a little bit of the table's call.  Usually, I see if the player playing this way screws with other players plans.  If it complicates the groups plans, then I say it complicates the player's life. 

I can always compel other players to try and counteract this setback too.  Like the incredibly stealthy guy with an aspect "Time for Contingency Plan B...or Was it C?".

But I love it when a plan falls apart so thoroughly that it comes together again.  It's a trope that my group enjoys.

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 13, 2013, 01:08:32 AM

Quote from: toturi on April 12, 2013, 03:25:09 AM

Therein lies the crux of the matter. What is meant by "meaningfully complicate"? If I was going to have my character storm the front door anyway, does that mean that it is not a Compel? If I storm the front door while the rest of the group infiltrate the compound, does it count as a Compel? The character was inclined to crash the party anyway. I have seen GMs use the player's original course of action as a litmus test for handing out Compels and FPs, thinking that since the player was going to do it anyway, then it obviously does not meaningfully complicate his life.

Pretty sure those GMs are doing it wrong. Self-compels are a thing.

For me the test is usually "is this a really bad idea?" If it is and the character does it anyway, they get a fate point.

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: JDK002 on April 13, 2013, 05:02:08 PM

Transparancy is important with compels, self-compels specifically.  If a player is intentionally trying to get a FP, they should probably announce it up front toake sure the GM feels it's compel worthy.

Stepping in gum while walking down the street isn't a "meaningful complication".  Falling down an open manhole while walking down the street is.  Or if you need something a little less Looney Toons, tripping over a rock and breaking you wrist while walking down the street.

If a player does something worthy of a self-compel without realizing it, it's usually a good idea to just give them a FP, even if no one catches it right away.  Though it's not typically a good idea to throw out fate points to players when they believe they have a good plan, and it just so happens to go south.  Basically what I mean is bad dice rolls or failure to gather vital pieces of information on the players part doesn't constitute a FP IMO.

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: toturi on April 15, 2013, 03:04:48 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on April 13, 2013, 01:08:32 AM

For me the test is usually "is this a really bad idea?" If it is and the character does it anyway, they get a fate point.

For me, the question usually is "does this restrict the player's options for the character?" If it is, then the player gets a FP. When I GM, the threshold for "meaningful complication" is pretty low; as long as I can find some form of negative implication, no matter how minor, I'd give the FP.

Stepping on gum walking down the street can be a meaningful complication. The gum causes your shoe to emit a squeeking sound, thus alerting the security guard. Or it leaves a residue on the floor, forensics can match it to the gum on your shoe.

Title: Re: My first Dresden Files / Fate character. Can I get some feedback/advice?
Post by: Elkhorn on April 15, 2013, 03:13:40 PM

I know I'm a couple of days late to the party, but had a couple of thoughts for you.  Great character concept!

• Is there a reason you're jumping straight to the supernatural levels of strength?  You open up 4 refresh by only taking them at Inhuman to start with (and gives your character room to grow/advance).  With the 4 extra refresh, you could tack on recovery as well, and still take a couple of stunts.
• On the topic of stunts, the skill-swapping stunts are a great way to get extra mileage out of a single skill.  Armed Arts lets you pick out two weapons to use with the Fists skill.
• You can also buff up your Fists with the Lethal Weapons stunt(making them an effective Weapon:2), or if you want to bring in more of the St. Patrick curse thing, see if your GM will let you take the Holy Touch power (makes your Fists Weapon:1 against critters with the Faith/Holy catches, in addition to satisfying the catch)
• Agree with the comments that high Might is superfluous with Strength powers in play.
• The Infuriate stunt would be a good spend as well (and allow you to dial back your Intimidate skill)

I won't make any recommendations on your skill tree, because a lot of that will depend on what you do with your refresh.

Just remember that if you've got an Aspect to call on, you don't need to have the skill quite as high.  That can help you to get more skills on the table from the get-go without majorly hamstringing yourself by forgoing +4 and +5 skills.

Anyway, that's my $.02.  Enjoy!