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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: polkaneverdies on April 06, 2013, 03:10:04 PM
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Has anyone compiled a list of these?
I vaguely recall seeing one a while back, but the search function has defeated me.
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There isn't really an upper limit on thematic Thaumaturgy. Kind of defeats the purpose of a list.
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Not if the purpose of the list is a handy brainstorming tool for flavoring casters.
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Here are the ones I can think of from the top of my head..
Divination
Summoning (probably lots of different versions here)
Healing (both physical an mental)
Necromancy
Protection (wards and other protective magic)
Travelpowers
Curses
/Ulfgeir
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Several of those are Functional groupings, not thematic.
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Function can be a theme.
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Function can be a theme.
For the purposes of thaumaturgy in the DFRPG, no. Functional groupings and thematic groupings are the two distinct ways to categorize subsets of thaumaturgy; as a result, they are not interchangeable terms.
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Say your bag is divination.
I can see that having the right information allows you to solve seemingly impossible problems, such as tracking a person who left no trail, could be used for summoning spirits for the purpose of gaining information, etc.
Will your methods possibly become more convoluted? Yeah, probably, and will you be incapable of doing some things? Yeah, definitely, but you don't have to be anymore restricted than any other theme is.
I feel like this is why someone with full blown Thaumaturgy can have both function and theme specializations.
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Divination is a functional grouping, not a thematic one. This is not a matter of debate. This is explicit RAW.
Thematic groupings are not functional groupings, and functional groupings are not thematic groupings. This, too, is quite plain in the RAW. This, too, is not really up for debate.
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Say your bag is divination.
Divination is a functional grouping; you could have Ritual (Divination) or Thaumaturgy (+1 Divination Complexity), for instance.
I can see that having the right information allows you to solve seemingly impossible problems, such as tracking a person who left no trail, could be used for summoning spirits for the purpose of gaining information, etc.
Tracking spells are a subset of divination. Summoning is a different functional grouping, so divination bonuses usually won't apply. You could easily skin a divination ritual to look like calling up a spirit for information, but you couldn't bind the spirit to do a task.
Will your methods possibly become more convoluted? Yeah, probably, and will you be incapable of doing some things? Yeah, definitely, but you don't have to be anymore restricted than any other theme is.
Again, divination is a function, not a theme. The terms aren't interchangeable. See YS284, "Thematic Thaumaturgy."
I feel like this is why someone with full blown Thaumaturgy can have both function and theme specializations.
This is certainly possible under the RAW, though sometimes very slightly suboptimal, since your bonuses will overlap at certain points and won't stack. By far the best example would be a character with thaumaturgy who has a particular theme (say, Biomancy) and also some bonuses to Crafting, which is a function, because Crafting bonuses are unique in type. (He might have a specialization pyramid like this: +3 Biomancy Complexity, +2 Crafting Power, +1 Biomancy Control.)
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While I agree on the functional vs thematic definitions being pointed out, I am a bit puzzled at how emphatically it is being pointed out. Not like there's going to be a difference in how thamaturgy works between a functional vs thematic line. A functional description simply describes what you're good at doing while a thematic description covers your preferred method. There is potential for crossover...
...some overtly functional types like Divination transfer into a thematic line relatively easily. If you're using Divination to set up a damage spell by 'seeing the future and maneuvering the ghoul in front of the truck you saw coming' or a summoning spell by 'going to where you know the entity will be' it has become thematic. ;)
In any case, here are a few thematic ideas:
- Animism (magic through animal & "natural" spirits)
- Shamanism (magic through ancestor spirits)
- Totemism (magic through / from a powerful spirit being you're linked to)
- Hunting (similar to the Wyld Hunt; locating, tracking and taking a target down)
- Chi (using internal energy)
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Ritual summoning and crafting are functions of thaumaturgy that get used as themes all the time, so I don't really see why the other functions of Thaumaturgy can't be used as themes as well if you have the creativity for it.
Also, it has to be up for debate or the discussion wouldn't even have arisen.
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While I agree on the functional vs thematic definitions being pointed out, I am a bit puzzled at how emphatically it is being pointed out. Not like there's going to be a difference in how thamaturgy works between a functional vs thematic line. A functional description simply describes what you're good at doing while a thematic description covers your preferred method. There is potential for crossover...
...some overtly functional types like Divination transfer into a thematic line relatively easily. If you're using Divination to set up a damage spell by 'seeing the future and maneuvering the ghoul in front of the truck you saw coming' or a summoning spell by 'going to where you know the entity will be' it has become thematic. ;)
It's a mechanical distinction that is significant for game balance purposes related to Thaumaturgy. A functional grouping covers all themes within the narrow scope of its function; a thematic grouping covers all functions within the narrow scope of its theme. If you airily hand-wave the distinctions between function and theme for a given grouping, you make it approximately twice as broad as intended, and very likely more.
What you are describing would be appropriate for a Luck or Fate based theme (certainly possible), but not Divination, which already has a clearly carved-out space in the rules. Divination is strictly about gathering knowledge; you can't use a divination spell to cause damage. "Going to where you know the entity will be" isn't Summoning by any definition, though "Visiting" isn't usually considered a field of magical practice.
Ritual summoning and crafting are functions of thaumaturgy that get used as themes all the time,
Not by people who understand the rules of thaumaturgy. House rules can modify anything, but throwing out rules because you don't understand them is always dumb.
Also, it has to be up for debate or the discussion wouldn't even have arisen.
That is an absurd statement. Technical terms exist for a reason: to facilitate precise communication. Misusing those terms because the distinction "doesn't matter" suggests a lack of understanding of the field being discussed.
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It's a mechanical distinction that is significant for game balance purposes related to Thaumaturgy. A functional grouping covers all themes within the narrow scope of its function; a thematic grouping covers all functions within the narrow scope of its theme. If you airily hand-wave the distinctions between function and theme for a given grouping, you make it approximately twice as broad as intended, and very likely more.
There's really not that clean a distinction. But I don't care enough to get involved in an argument. I simply attempted to subtly point out the thread derailment. Why not take the meta-definition argument to another thread and let the OP work on a list of ideas?
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Or it could simply mean that your interpretation is too narrow.
I don't see how assuming that a function can act as a theme will do anything to unbalance the game. Do you maybe have some evidence, anecdotal or mathematical to show that this is true?
In the case of a Divination summoning it makes sense that you couldn't bind it to any other task than obtaining or delivering information. After all, your theme if its Divination is basically just the gathering or manipulation of information via any of the functions available to you from your theme.
Maybe you would prefer a different name, like infomancer, but divinator or whatever works just as well you know. This system runs on whatevermancy, so it's not going to be hard to come up with themes that are basically a derivative of a "function." This isn't house ruling at all, it's just thinking creatively.
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Sure, I'd be more than happy to discuss in a new thread or in PMs.
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There's really not that clean a distinction.
It is precisely that clean a distinction. From YS284, Thematic Thaumaturgy, which I have already cited in this thread:
All the types of thaumaturgy listed so far are divided along functional lines.
For reference, these are Summoning and Binding, Conjuration, Divination, Veils, Wards, Crafting, Transformation and Disruption, and Transportation and Worldwalking.
A thematic specialization looks at the subject matter in which all the various functions of thaumaturgy are applied--an ectomancer will be particularly effective with summoning, binding, divining, veiling, warding, crafting, transforming, disrupting, and transporting ghosts and other non-demonic spirits, for example.
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The main thing the GM needs to watch out for here is ensuring that the theme is both strongly expressed and limited in scope; a theme which really amounts to "everything" in application is not theme at all--it's a cheat.
The list of suggested themes follows: Biomancy, Diabolism, Ectomancy, Entropomancy, Necromancy, Photomancy, and Psychomancy. Entropomancy covers the luck/fate theme discussed earlier. The list is explicitly not exhaustive, but the distinction between dividing thaumaturgy by function or by theme is perfectly clear, as is the reason for it: making sure that a given theme doesn't creep into "everythingmancy."
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A theme, by definition can't do everything because its thematic. A function of thaumaturgy that I am expanding upon by turning it into a theme will operate under similar limitations.
Just as a necromancer cannot create gold from thin air neither can the devoted divinomancer. Although both could creatively employ their magic to get their hands on some. This should assuage your fears of everythingmancy I think.
In terms of contributing to the original purpose of the thread:
Avianmancy
Sludgeomancy
Geomancy
Alchemy
Crafting
Going to need time to think of others.
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Holomancy
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There are more which double as function or theme:
- Illusion
- Translocation
- Temporal / Chronological
In the end, it's merely a matter of how it's described.