ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Wordmaker on April 04, 2013, 11:27:13 AM

Title: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Wordmaker on April 04, 2013, 11:27:13 AM
My "On The Run" campaign is kicking off with setting creation tonight. One of the things I'm trying to figure out is frequency and severity of compels for magic messing up technology.

At the Up To Your Waist power level, the most powerful mortal spellcaster option is the Sorcerer. YS gives Victor Sells as an example of a Sorcerer, and it's made clear that Sorcerers are people who have a lot of power, but fall shy of the requirements for membership of the White Council, and miss out on the same level of training that a Wizard receives.

So far it looks like the only mortal magic-user in the group is a Focused Practitioner who crafts enchanted items.

In the books, we see less-powerful magic-users than Harry having relatively little trouble with technology. Victor Sells didn't appear to have any major issues with it, and Mortimer Lindquist lived in a regular house, owned a television, and appeared on tv shows regularly. So would it be fair to say that Sorcerers and Focused Practitioners just don't get compels to their High Concept to cause problems with modern technology?
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: blackstaff67 on April 04, 2013, 12:32:43 PM
Try as I might, I really can't find anything to challenge your argument.  I can only suppose the nature of formal Wizard training causes hi-tech to fail, given that a Sorceror can only have/teach themselves two refinements max. before they need formal training themselves.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: polkaneverdies on April 04, 2013, 12:58:33 PM
I would only do it in times of heavy magic use or intense emotions. They don't seem to have the juice for the truly random effect.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Magicpockets on April 04, 2013, 01:13:21 PM
I would make it dependent on the total Refresh spent on magical powers. Anything 7+ is fair game for regular compels, so Mr Artificer with Thaumaturgy and craploads of Refinements does not get a free pass.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Wordmaker on April 04, 2013, 01:33:23 PM
7+ would work well, since that's the minimum Refresh cost to be a Wizard. And it means there's an added risk if the characters start increasing their power as they reach milestones. I'd still be inclined to compel less often unless a character was proving to really have Wizard-level power.

So a Focused Practitioner with some Refinements, like Mortimer Lindquist, would generally live a life free of technological difficulty.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Taran on April 04, 2013, 02:06:29 PM
Quote from: polkaneverdies on April 04, 2013, 12:58:33 PM
I would only do it in times of heavy magic use or intense emotions. They don't seem to have the juice for the truly random effect.

Keep in mind the "power" of spells being thrown around as an indicator to when it might be appropriate to throw out a compel.  More juice = a greater chance of hexing...

The emotion part is important too because that's where they lose control on magic.

Any Fallout would be a good excuse to hex as well.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Wordmaker on April 04, 2013, 02:10:53 PM
That's true. Mortimer might just be better than Harry at keeping his feelings in check. Which isn't hard.  :P
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: voidronin on April 04, 2013, 02:59:31 PM
Just my interpretation from the books and the power section; A wizard's biology is given as the reason why they have issues with technology. Normal non-wizard practitioners don't seem to be effected unless actively working magic and supernatural casters have to deliberately hex technology. Wizard Constitution is the RPG representation of that biology and a requirement to be a full wizard. I would say that having that power would cause them to hex technology without actively using magic in addition to being able to deliberately target tech.

Though at the same time I did not see any game advantages to being a wizard over a person with just Evocation, Thaumaturgy, and stacks of refinements. Even one of my players thought about a non-wizard wizard, meaning he had no interest in the Sight, Soulgaze, or Wizard's Constitution and I am hard pressed to give him a solid reason why spending the extra points are worth it mechanically if he doesn't want to use them as actually being a full wizard doesn't seem to have any advantages over not being a wizard and might include extra mechanical disadvantages. This is purely from the mechanical view. I can sorta justify the extras for decent story telling options, unique powerful contacts, ect but losing refresh for pure story can be a hard sell.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Wordmaker on April 04, 2013, 03:09:42 PM
I like that definition, actually. Wizard's Constitution does reflect the biological differences in a wizard, especially when you consider how Butters explains Harry's "electromagnetic field."

In terms of mechanics, there are some benefits to being a full Wizard.

Straight off, you have an extra source of Fate Points from the added compels when dealing with modern technology, and compels related to the character's membership of the White Council (Harry makes it clear in YS that the only reason Elaine isn't forced to join is because she pretends to be weaker than she is, so it follows that anyone fitting the Wizard template must either be a member, or be hiding their true nature).

You also get to buy more levels of Refinement, which is the major way for magic-users to become more powerful. As blackstaff67 said, only a Wizard can buy more than two levels of Refinement, so over the course of a campaign, even a tricked-out Sorcerer with high Lore, Conviction and Discipline isn't going to be a match, magically-speaking, for a Wizard with the same amount of Milestones under his belt.

And there's a lot to be said for The Sight. It can be incredibly useful as an investigative tool.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: voidronin on April 04, 2013, 03:34:36 PM
The only issue i have with my own definition is the section on actually hexing tech, heh. It is the only section that i can recall that changed every word normally used as "wizard" to "mortal caster". I feel that the section kind ham-hands the hexing / caster thing previously set up in the novels.

The fate point aspect comes from easy plot hooks. It can easily be reproduced by a creative player closely tailoring his aspects to his city themes/ faces/ threats/ troubles/ campaign goals and group-mates. The forced template tie-in just makes it easier to start.

That refinement rule has to be a house rule as it is not listed under the refinement power or either of the casting powers. I also could not find anything like that in the spell casting section. As far as the book goes (unless i missed something) anyone that takes either Evocation or Thaumaturgy can take any number of refinements for the relevant power and the only limitations i could see were maximum number of elements possible (5 traditionally) and the cap on an individual specialization bonus (equal to maximum Lore).

I agree with your assessment of the Sight. But if the player's concept doesn't have much to do with supernatural senses or paranormal investigation they become less incline to spend the refresh if there are more suited powers or stunts left to take.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Mrmdubois on April 04, 2013, 03:40:58 PM
Actually the sorcerer with evocation and Thaumaturgy can buy just as any refinements as a wizard.  The builds that only let you buy less are the the ones based on Ritual and Channeling.

That being said Wizard's Constitution basically allows for any Consequence to heal using only time as a justification, although treatment certainly speeds the process.

And yeah, the Sight is a powerful option for finding things out.

I don't recall any mentions of Sells not having trouble with technology by the way, but I don't recall any mentions of him interacting with it either.  The most we get is implied direct interaction with a telephone to call a pizza place (and that works for Harry most of the time), or an indirect interaction with a camera.  Oh, and the radio he was channeling music from into his spell, which was located downstairs probably to keep it as far from the mojo going on as possible.

Also, even supernatural entities that aren't spell slingers -can- hex, but it seems to be almost entirely under their discretion whether they do or not.  The only time I can think of where it may not have been deliberate was with a certain grendelkin which basically guaranteed Harry pursued it at least partially aware of its nature (a Compel perhaps).

So really it seems to me like you should just compel hexing at appropriate times and places where it adds to stress, or for the funniness of it.  Do it especially with Casters because it tends to be a big weakness for them, and don't forget about Hemingway via fallout or even as an unintended side effect of spells.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Mrmdubois on April 04, 2013, 03:46:22 PM
Quote
That refinement rule has to be a house rule as it is not listed under the refinement power or either of the casting powers. I also could not find anything like that in the spell casting section. As far as the book goes (unless i missed something) anyone that takes either Evocation or Thaumaturgy can take any number of refinements for the relevant power and the only limitations i could see were maximum number of elements possible (5 traditionally) and the cap on an individual specialization bonus (equal to maximum Lore).

The restriction on refinements when dealing with Channeling and Ritual is because there isn't  big enough pyramid base.  It works like the skill pyramid where each specialization is another skill point.  With evocation that gives you a starting base of three and up to five elements, and each specialization can be put into power and control of those elements.  With Channeling or Ritual you have a starting base of two, power and control.  So first refinement specialization goes into power, second into control, then the third goes into bringing either power or control up once more and then you're stuck.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Wordmaker on April 04, 2013, 03:53:58 PM
It's page 81 of YS, under the description of the Sorcerer Template. They can only take Refinement once per spell ability, so that's once for Evocation and once for Thaumaturgy.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Mrmdubois on April 04, 2013, 06:26:41 PM
Huh, true enough.

I guess how you're going to let that affect your game is going to depend on how much you let templates affect it.  Personally, I don't care for templates so I'd just ignore that particular bit.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: voidronin on April 04, 2013, 11:45:23 PM
Weird for it to only be under the template. Most of my players glossed over them to get a basic idea of how to build a character then went straight for creating their own custom character according to what they wish to play. It does seem to be an artificial attachment to the template as the section of the rules it references does not impose the limit, meaning it is only attached to a sorcerer template character. Any other kind of custom caster could then take as many refinements as they have refresh for. In the end it ends up being a campaign/ GM call.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Mrmdubois on April 05, 2013, 01:51:50 AM
Any custom caster who has evocation and/or Thaumaturgy you mean.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Magicpockets on April 05, 2013, 02:34:47 AM
Templates are, lIke they say, a suggestion. And more importantly, you're specifically allowed to combine templates as long as you can afford the Refresh. So that Sorcerer can always "upgrade" to Wizard.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: blackstaff67 on April 05, 2013, 04:47:17 AM
Until I read that more closely, my definition of a Sorceror was "Wizard that isn't a member of the White Council."  It somehow implies that unless you have the formal training, your full potential won't be reached. 

Then again, as others have pointed out, Harry Dresden is an unreliable witness /narrator.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 05, 2013, 05:27:55 AM
Accidental hexing has no real rules, so how badly FPs and Sorcerers suffer from it is purely a GM call.

Template restrictions are narrative, they're not a way to keep people from making overpowered characters. So the fact that Sorcerers can't Refine endlessly can't fix issues of whether The Sight is worth it.

That being said, I think The Sight is worth it. Lore +1 for magical Investigation is pretty handy, and it's a nice trump card to have against illusion stuff.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Wordmaker on April 05, 2013, 06:23:10 AM
Basically yes. Given how long the White Council has been around, it can safely be assumed that anyone with the Wizard template is either a member, or has been trained by someone who's had White Council training. Which makes sense given the setting. Any mortal with the potential to be a wizard is going to be drafted into the Council, or will have to hide from them, like Elaine does.

It's definitely a narrative restriction, rather than a mechanically-balancing one, and Sorcerers can take The Sight as well, if they have the Refresh. If a Sorcerer wanted to take additional Refinements, I'd just rule that first they have to take The Sight, to represent their growing power (Luccio comments on Harry's own Sight improving, or "coming in", when they're on Demonreach, so it's definitely partly a representation of that), after which, when they take their next additional Refinement, they change to the Wizard template. Does mean they'd need to be careful around Wardens if they don't want to be forced into joining the White Council, but that should be a concern for any powerful spellcaster.

I think that if a GM were going to allow non-Wizards to take as make Refinements as they like and not require a template change, then it's probably fair for those characters to be subject to compels for problems with technology, just like a Wizard.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Mrmdubois on April 05, 2013, 05:23:12 PM
Although the Sight that Luccio is talking about is a Wizard's ability to perceive important future events.  Speaking of it's interesting Harry hasn't had any more since SF.

Anyway, I don't think a person with the qualifications to be a member of the White Council would have to hide if he didn't want to join.  There would be a lot of different pressures to make joining look like a good idea but it's not something they can force without breaking Laws if a person is really stubborn about not joining.  In Elaine's case she has to hide because being DuMorne's student she'd almost certainy be run up on Lawbreaking charges like Harry was, and she's as paranoid about that as the White Council would be to find out about her after all this time.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Wordmaker on April 05, 2013, 06:42:55 PM
I'm not so sure. It's made very clear both in the books and YS that Elaine under-performed when Ramierez tested her for magical potency. It was specifically to hide her talent rather than her identity.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Mrmdubois on April 05, 2013, 06:55:36 PM
Yeah, because they would give her past a harder look if she showed off what she could really do.  Plus there's the backlash of her enthrallment being broken which makes her prefer to be on her own as opposed to under the "control" of the White Council.

Like Harry said, the longer she goes without turning herself in the more likely that the White Council will freak out disproportionately.  By now hiding her power is the same as hiding her identity.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Wordmaker on April 05, 2013, 09:25:17 PM
That's true. I guess I figured the White Council wouldn't be the type to leave a potential wizard unwatched.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Mrmdubois on April 05, 2013, 10:27:08 PM
They probably don't when they have the resources, but keeping tabs on someone and forcing them to join up are two very different things.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Wordmaker on April 05, 2013, 11:20:13 PM
Very true, and useful to remember for the game  :)
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: blackstaff67 on April 06, 2013, 06:29:40 AM
Quote from: Wordmaker on April 05, 2013, 09:25:17 PM
That's true. I guess I figured the White Council wouldn't be the type to leave a potential wizard unwatched.
They'd soul-gaze her Lawbreaking butt (remember the Mind Fog spell she threw in Summer Knight?  Lawbreaker) and would at least put several Wardens on her--resources allowing, that is.  Not allowing, they'd probably take her head then and there, since they took a big hit in the Red Court War and wouldn't want to look weak.

Politics, man.  Can't look weak.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: gantrakk on April 06, 2013, 06:54:13 AM
Since I have just been "reading" (audiobook really) White Night I recall something about this there.

(click to show/hide)

I would guess to the white council bit that since player characters are probably going to be quite powerful and so will have pressure to join and the simple act of refusing will immediately put them under a lot of suspicion. I mean they are the white council who doesn't want to join, clearly it is because they are hiding something they don't want the council to know therefor they must be a warlock.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: Wordmaker on April 06, 2013, 10:35:04 AM
That's exactly what I was thinking, gantrakk, on both points. Weaker magic-users are safer around technology, so I'll be compelling accidental hexes less.
Title: Re: Non-Wizard magic-users and technology
Post by: blackstaff67 on April 07, 2013, 07:46:57 PM
Actually, The Sight as Harry has it does give some minor visions of the future if you re-read Storm Front as he sees Victor's Lakeside house for the first time.