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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: McNulty on March 14, 2013, 10:42:37 AM
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I have a few character-related issues boggling my mind at the moment. I'm also a complete DFRPG newbie (but seasoned veteran otherwise).
1) One of my player wants to do a focused practitioner focused on crafting magic items. Basically having Rituals:Crafting as the only magical skill (we are playing up to your waist, mind). Based on my reading of the rules, this is not really possible as he could only craft items that help you.. well, craft items. This of course sounds logical as I think one should have the magic knowledge for the type of items/potions he's trying to craft. But then again I'm not keen on thwarting the character idea completely as there's good bit of backstory invented before I started thinking about the mechanics. I think if he takes Channeling as well, then he could craft items based on a particular element/strand of magic. Am I correct so far?
I was also considering bending the rules a bit and suggesting that he could have a thaumaturgy skill only, making him a sort of a broken/half-made wizard-in-training (fits the backstory too), but let me know if this is a bad idea (other than bending the rules from the go).
2) Another character is a were-creature, a were-crow to be more precise. This is luckily more straight forward, but one thing doesn't sit well with me: the rules suggest that he should pick for example wings and diminutive size as powers for the were raven. But then again the beast change power already changes you to a bird, which is a small, flying creature (= diminutive with wings). To me this feels like you have to pay twice (or thrice) for this particular creature. I already house ruled that beast change covers the wings and size issue, but let me know if I have misunderstood something.
Thanks in advance for any help.
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1) Actually, a character with Ritual (Crafting) and Refinement as his only powers is one of the most potentially-powerful builds in the RAW. Ritual (Crafting) lets you craft anything that you have the slots for.
Basically, the various specialties of Thaumaturgy come in one of two types: Thematic specialties or Functional specialties. Ritual gives you access to one specialty, but that can be of either type. The trick here is that choosing a Thematic specialty (like Necromancy) covers every Function (so long as it's in theme) and choosing a Functional specialty (like Crafting) covers every Theme (but only within that function). With Ritual (Necromancy), I could summon and bind ghosts (Summoning/Binding function in a Necromancy theme), ward against zombies (Warding function in a Necromancy theme), or make a pair of glasses that lets me see ghosts (Crafting function in a Necromancy theme). With Ritual (Crafting), I can make a pair of glasses that lets me see ghosts (Crafting function in a Necromancy theme), a ring that can generate a block against mental attacks (Crafting function in a Psychomancy theme), or a wand that spits a stream of fire (Crafting function in a Pyromancy theme). Ritual (Crafting) provides tremendous flexibility, but you must make and use enchanted items or potions in order to do anything magical.
2) Yeah, Beast Change doesn't work like that either--though it's also extremely worthwhile for 1 point of Refresh. If you want to be a were-raven and only pick up Beast Change, you will turn into a human-sized bird that can't fly (a were-ostrich?). Beast Change grants two things, though: the justification to buy Wings and Diminutive Size (so you can fly and be normal raven sized) AND the ability to have a second Skill list available for your transformed self. These are huge--you can bring a lot more flexibility to the group if your normal human form is oriented towards knowledge and social-type Skills, but your beast form has Athletics or other combat-relevant abilities topped out.
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What Vairelome said. On #2 specifically, giving out other powers just because a player has Beast Change is like giving everyone who takes the Blood Drinker power Inhuman Strength for free because vampires are super strong. It's true of the creature type, but that just means that creatures of that type need to buy additional powers, not that they get them for free.
You could take Beast Change (Tiger), Beast Change (Raven) and Beast Change (Gibbon). Going by your ruling, the first would be by far the best one to pick, since it gets you Claws, Inhuman Strength, and probably Inhuman Speed for free (Tigers all have those things, after all), while the Raven gets only Wings and Diminutive Size, and the Gibbon gets nothing beyond the skill-swap. So, to avoid that problem, the mechanics are effect-based: All the power gives you is skill-swapping and passing for that creature. You want other stuff you need to pay for it (though you can, of course, use Human Form to get something of a discount).
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Thanks, I obviously need to read the magic rules more carefully but this should help me (and make one of my players happy). I might return with a follow up questions though, be warned. :)
Regarding the were-creatures.. I hear what you are saying and that's how I read it too, though it doesn't make sense to me. Also this "You take on the shape and appearance of the beast.." suggest to me that you take the actual shape (including size), but obviously there's room for interpretation. I'll leave it at that as I'm not here to argue about the rules and I'm sure there are reasons for the system to work like that (most likely game balancing ones).
And the good thing about RPG's is that you can change things you don't like. :) I'm tempted to make the beast change a tad more comprehensive (and more expensive to buy).
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Regarding the were-creatures.. I hear what you are saying and that's how I read it too, though it doesn't make sense to me. Also this "You take on the shape and appearance of the beast.." suggest to me that you take the actual shape (including size), but obviously there's room for interpretation. I'll leave it at that as I'm not here to argue about the rules and I'm sure there are reasons for the system to work like that (most likely game balancing ones).
Sure, you look like a Raven. Or whatever. But appearances aren't everything. You want the actual mechanical benefits of other powers, you have to buy them. And yeah, game balance is definitely the primary concern with that.
And the good thing about RPG's is that you can change things you don't like. :) I'm tempted to make the beast change a tad more comprehensive (and more expensive to buy).
The thing is, at the moment, for practical purposes, Beast Change already does cost more, and is modular, by the simple expedient of including other powers if you pay for them, and only if you pay for them. Any additions to that are likely to be either unbalancingly overpowered or utterly pointless.
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The thing is, at the moment, for practical purposes, Beast Change already does cost more, and is modular, by the simple expedient of including other powers if you pay for them, and only if you pay for them. Any additions to that are likely to be either unbalancingly overpowered or utterly pointless.
The first is actually true, but the feeling within our group was that it felt too expensive that you need to buy all the bits and bobs separately. And where do you draw the line? Do you need to buy Claws for a wereraven in order to actually have them even though you are a bird, etc. Or a beak. Or a trunk for were-elephant (ok that's a joke but you get the meaning I hope). I can see the balance-issue being the most pressing one, but luckily I have awesome players so we can handle that on the fly (pun intended).
I acknowledge that I'm on a thin ice here as a total DFRPG newbie, but this bit about werecreatures just didn't feel "logical" to any of us. Or maybe it's the baggage how more familiar systems approach werecreatures..
Anyways, thanks for your input.
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Honestly? That's just too bad. That's how the game works. You want claws? You have to pay for the power. You want to fly? You have to pay for the power. You want diminutive size? You have to pay for the power. This isn't a system where you get things for free because they make sense for a creature. It's a system where a creature has powers and traits because they paid for those powers and traits.
What you're talking about is just ignoring the mechanics that make all the creatures work.
Would you have someone play a White Court Vampire, and let them get the benefits of Inhuman Strength/Speed/Recovery without paying for them because "Well, he's a White Court Vampire, so he should have them"?
If you want the mechanical benefits of a power, you pay refresh for that power, full stop.
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The first is actually true, but the feeling within our group was that it felt too expensive that you need to buy all the bits and bobs separately.
Well, are you including Human Form? That's a pretty universal rebate for shapeshifters.
And where do you draw the line? Do you need to buy Claws for a wereraven in order to actually have them even though you are a bird, etc. Or a beak. Or a trunk for were-elephant (ok that's a joke but you get the meaning I hope).
The powers are purely mechanical, so you draw the line at the mechanics: Does the Raven fly? Then it needs wings. Does it get the +4 stealth and al assorted other benefits and disadvantages of being Diminutive Size? Then it gets that power. Does it get the +2 damage from Claws? Then it has that power. A Raven with only Wings, for example, would do normal unarmed damage with it's attacks and would be big enough that Diminutive size didn't apply (a very reasonable idea). One with Claws does more damage, one with diminutive Size is susceptible to all that stuff.
I can see the balance-issue being the most pressing one, but luckily I have awesome players so we can handle that on the fly (pun intended).
I strongly advise against this. Even one Refresh makes a huge difference in this game. Giving it out free is a bad idea on par with giving out free levels in D&D.
I acknowledge that I'm on a thin ice here as a total DFRPG newbie, but this bit about werecreatures just didn't feel "logical" to any of us. Or maybe it's the baggage how more familiar systems approach werecreatures..
You're thinking of it wrong. One power almost never defines a creature type, which is what you're suggesting. And being able to turn into an animal is cool enough to be a creature type, not just a single trick.
Anyways, thanks for your input.
Always happy to be of assistance. :)
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On reflection, I think part of the issue is your veteran status in other games--I'm guessing these other games had things like racial bonuses for creature types, for example? You need to forget about all that, because it doesn't apply to DFRPG. A creature type isn't built through bonuses that "make sense", it's built through spending refresh on powers.
Any built-in mechanical bonus to a skill roll costs Refresh. A vampire doesn't get a +1 to Athletics rolls because it's a vampire, it gets a +1 to its Athletics rolls because it paid for Inhuman Speed. Nobody gets power for free.
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On reflection, I think part of the issue is your veteran status in other games
Nail & Head, thanks! For this I'll let your first, imho quite condescending reply leave be.
This is not going to make one of my players too happy, but I'll probably stick with the rules as written now.
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You would have wings, but you might not have the hollow bones or the instincts neccessary to fly correctly.
You would have claws, but they wouldn't do as much damage as a sword.
Fool moon addresses this issue when it talks about people being able to shift and look like a creature but having no idea how to work as one.
It is your game so obviously it is your call.
Frankly I would like to play in your game.
My character idea is timetraveling sue come to find out who messed with her bones.
I will use all the refresh I didn't spend have to spend buying the physical powers to myself a spell slinger. (This hyperbole, I know this wouldn't pass gm scrutiny) ;)
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Apologies, I didn't mean to be condescending, just firm. I figured this was an issue that should be nipped in the bud before it threw your game totally out of whack, and your previous responses made it seem like you were going to go ahead with giving the powers for free anyway.
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My character idea is timetraveling sue come to find out who messed with her bones.
:P
No time-bending elements in my games, thank you very much.
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Oh, but those are so much fun. My campaign is currently in the middle of a Groundhog Day-esque time loop (I'm having a lot of fun dramatically killing people off repeatedly).
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Apologies, I didn't mean to be condescending, just firm. I figured this was an issue that should be nipped in the bud before it threw your game totally out of whack, and your previous responses made it seem like you were going to go ahead with giving the powers for free anyway.
Apology accepted and no worries, I understand your point now. But then again I understood the rules regarding this from the beginning, not just the logic/reasoning behind it. Telling me that you're out of luck as those are the rules doesn't help me much in that area. But everything else in this thread have, even if a bit roundabout way. So I tip my hat to y'all.
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Oh, but those are so much fun. My campaign is currently in the middle of a Groundhog Day-esque time loop (I'm having a lot of fun dramatically killing people off repeatedly).
Oh I'm sure they are, for the players. My group is such a devilish bunch that even normal time continuums get me off guard every time. So just to keep that little bit of sanity intact, I'll do my best to avoid time slips. 8)
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Glad to hear it.
I think We forumites reacted zealously to the initial post, before taking a breath to try a more helpful explanation.
The reason is quite simple. It is very easy to overlook how powerful Beast change is.
All of the numbers in this game are very small. The impact difference between skill level 1 and skill level 4 is huge. For 1?(blanking on actual price)refresh you can have a character who happens to be the most knowledgeable, most connected, or richest flip a switch and be a complete monster slayer. That is a massive advantage.
Virtually every other character type has to make hard decisions between combat vs out of combat skills. Shifters don't.
If you want some examples just check out the play by post ooc threads. Many games have a shifter and most of those shifters human forms have maxed non combat skills.
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For 1?(blanking on actual price)refresh you can have a character who happens to be the most knowledgeable, most connected, or richest flip a switch and be a complete monster slayer. That is a massive advantage.
I can see this now. As I mentioned I have wonderful group of players and they inherently steer away from min-maxing, so the balance issue wasn't so clear to me. The PC in question is actually a street urchin/thief type that can turn into a crow.
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Street urchin/ crow
Clearly secretly scheming to be the next god king of the Dresden world. ;)
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Clearly secretly scheming to be the next god king of the Dresden world. ;)
Oh aye and he's autistic tendencies to boot.
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Maybe take Aspect "I'm the offspring of Hunin/Munin?"
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Yeah, aspects are the only thing that come close to things like racial bonuses/penalties--and even then, they cost a fate point to actually capitalize on that bonus.
So, to correct my previous statement, a vampire can get a boost to a speed or strength roll just for being a vampire, but only if he has a fate point to spend on it.
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It's probably worth noting that another reason everyone is saying not to give out powers for free is that the game balance tends to fall apart at higher refresh levels (around 15 or 16 I would say). There's a reason they only go up to 10 refresh for character power levels, and suggest giving out refresh levels very very sparingly.
Giving out powers for free expidites this issue, possibly causing it from the very outset. On top of this you are giving players a surplus of fate points, which can throw off the natural compel/invoke tempo between players and the GM.
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#Game Balance
Can't the GM simply craft a story where the threat level is equivalent to the strength of the player characters, thus avoiding this imbalance? It seems like the seems is balanced, but overall has a reliance on GM/player agency (in crafting stories, in regards to Fate). Is there some inherent flaw that causes imbalance?
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#Game Balance
Can't the GM simply craft a story where the threat level is equivalent to the strength of the player characters, thus avoiding this imbalance? It seems like the seems is balanced, but overall has a reliance on GM/player agency (in crafting stories, in regards to Fate). Is there some inherent flaw that causes imbalance?
In the context of this thread and my above post: It's mote a matter of balance between players. A 16 refresh wizard or werebeast is far and away more powerful and capable then a 16 refresh pure mortal. Where as a 6 refresh game the power gap is less between say a focused practitioner and a pure mortal.
The issue in terms of this thread is giving a were-crow wings and diminutive size for free in a 6 refresh game effectivly make him a 9 (or is it 10?) refresh character. Which causes problems with balance because either A. The players who are playing legit 6 refresh characters have a hard time keeping up and end up on the sidelines, or B. The players you give free powers to dominate the game, C. All of the above.
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The latter issue is a matter of fairness - a six refresh game is a six refresh game. The player who is playing the were-raven will have to make do until the appropriate milestone.
In regards to the former: right, but in the game where the 16 refresh mortal is trying to hang with the big boys then they just have to be more...clever. Yes, of course there is a gap in metaphysical power but that doesn't make the mortal at the same refresh level ineffective.
EDIT: I was just trying to assess if you believed there was a blatant systemic flaw to the game system JDK...you know, for knowledge!
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And where do you draw the line? Do you need to buy Claws for a wereraven in order to actually have them even though you are a bird, etc. Or a beak. Or a trunk for were-elephant (ok that's a joke but you get the meaning I hope).
I've interpreted it more like this:
If you use beast change to turn yourself into an animal, you are in the shape of that animal, no questions asked. In your case, you are a raven, a tiny bird with wings, claws and a beak. Can you use them effectively? Absolutely not.
To be able to use your wings, you need the wings power, otherwise, they are decorative.
If you want to inflict more damage in physical combat because of your beak and claws, you need the claws power. You could get by without it and use your claws for non-combat stuff, but the damage bonus would be denied.
You want to use the fact that you are tiny to your advantage? Get the diminutive size power. Otherwise you are too set into your human ways of thinking and are not able to use your new size to your advantage.
By the way, a were raven with maxed out stealth is awesome :)
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If you change into a thing...shouldn't you be possess it's basic characteristics? Unless we're saying "oh, you're a bird now but you don't have knowledge of flight" then at your next refesh "you have conquerored flight, take the Winged ability". Otherwise...it's kinda wierd to be a bird that can't fly - it's essential to the nature of the thing.
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You possess its basic characteristics. You just don't know how to use them. If I hand you a pilots uniform and you wear it, could you fly a plane?
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Otherwise...it's kinda wierd to be a bird that can't fly - it's essential to the nature of the thing.
Tell it to the ostrich, the emu, and the kakapo. ... Granted, the kakapo is pretty odd.
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So you're agreeing with me? :P
If you're a low-refresh shifter, you may very well be able to assume the form but mechanically you're not going to gain the full benefit. In-game that plays off as "I'm not actually a bird, so I have to figure out how to fly".
Personally, I would probably just allow the person to fly regardless of having the ability on the sheet (he is a bird) but I would prevent it from being a true advantage mechanically. If someone changes into a wolf, they're still going to be able to run even though it's four legs. They might not be very graceful is all.
It's all a good opprotunity to roleplay that origin story and sense of discovery.
@Mr. Death
But were weren't talking about an emu, where we? In there case, flight isn't an essential part of their nature (obviously). For a raven, it is - though for a human transforming into a raven maybe not so much.
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So you're agreeing with me? :P
[...]
Personally, I would probably just allow the person to fly regardless of having the ability on the sheet (he is a bird) but I would prevent it from being a true advantage mechanically. If someone changes into a wolf, they're still going to be able to run even though it's four legs. They might not be very graceful is all.
Yeah, we're on the same page here, pretty much. You might be able to fly, but only very slowly and not very graceful. You might get where you want to go, but it will take a lot of time and effort. Often enough it will be more than you can afford.
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I'm not sure about anyone else, but to me that is a very compelling concept. This is why I want to run/play a lower refresh game. The origin story and sense of discovery are very powerful storytelling/roleplaying elements for me. Limitations can breed opprotunity.
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@Mr. Death
But were weren't talking about an emu, where we? In there case, flight isn't an essential part of their nature (obviously). For a raven, it is - though for a human transforming into a raven maybe not so much.
Well, you said "bird". That and I wanted an excuse to mention the kakapo. They're some really odd, flightless parrots with some of the most bizarre and counter-intuitive mating habits on the face of the planet, and there's only about 120 or so of them (though that's up from the 40 there were in 1990).
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So you're agreeing with me? :P
If you're a low-refresh shifter, you may very well be able to assume the form but mechanically you're not going to gain the full benefit. In-game that plays off as "I'm not actually a bird, so I have to figure out how to fly".
Personally, I would probably just allow the person to fly regardless of having the ability on the sheet (he is a bird) but I would prevent it from being a true advantage mechanically. If someone changes into a wolf, they're still going to be able to run even though it's four legs. They might not be very graceful is all.
It's all a good opprotunity to roleplay that origin story and sense of discovery.
@Mr. Death
But were weren't talking about an emu, where we? In there case, flight isn't an essential part of their nature (obviously). For a raven, it is - though for a human transforming into a raven maybe not so much.
This is where buying temporary powers comes into play. The were-crow spends 2 fate points to gain the Wings power for one scene. This can be represented by him beginning to grasp how to operate in his bird form. Or it could be in a moment of fight or flight panic (no pun intended) he takes to the sky in pure reflex.
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Or just owing it to the GM and hoping you come out of the effort still human - yes, mechanically there are lots of opprotunities for play as well. I hadn't really began to think of those. Thanks JDK.
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#Game Balance
Can't the GM simply craft a story where the threat level is equivalent to the strength of the player characters, thus avoiding this imbalance? It seems like the seems is balanced, but overall has a reliance on GM/player agency (in crafting stories, in regards to Fate). Is there some inherent flaw that causes imbalance?
Different character types scale differently. If you leave the range of power levels recommended by Evil Hat, some character types will become overpowered compared to some other character types.
As a general rule, spellcasters want more Refresh and mortals want less.
Also, the game gets a bit rocket-tag-like at high Refresh levels. An serious evoker can punch right through Mythic Toughness, and 8 shifts for an extreme seems pretty paltry when people launch weapon 10+ attacks casually.
This doesn't have to ruin the game. I've had plenty of fun at 18 Refresh. But you should keep this stuff in mind if playing above Submerged or below Feet In The Water.
This is where buying temporary powers comes into play. The were-crow spends 2 fate points to gain the Wings power for one scene. This can be represented by him beginning to grasp how to operate in his bird form. Or it could be in a moment of fight or flight panic (no pun intended) he takes to the sky in pure reflex.
2 FP? Wouldn't it be 1, since that's what Wings costs?
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@Sanctaphrax
How do you play to this, in cases of higher refresh games, in order to keep these elements relevant?
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For the most part the players deal with it.
They don't create mortal PCs. They tend to use Evocation and Crafting and Modular Abilities. And they take a lot of Toughness/Recovery so that they don't go splat too easily.
As GM, I just keep people's abilities in mind when throwing out challenges. Nothing too fancy.
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Do you feel players avoid the challenge of playing mortal PC's in high refresh games due to the mechanics then? From a roleplaying perspective their is certain something appealing to the challenge.
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Yes.
A mortal could get a lot done with social/background skills even at 18 Refresh, but they'd be in serious trouble if they tried fighting anything on their level and they'd have no less than 20 Stunts and Fate Points to keep track of.
I don't think that appeals to people very much.
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Is it that, or something more basic: the desire for truly awesome pew-pew? After all, this is Dresden-verse and they sell pretty hard the idea of powerful wizards and vicious things that go bump in the night. Vanilla is tasty and you'll eat it if it's the only option...but give us all an ice cream parlour to run around in and most of us would mix it up a bit.
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At high Refresh levels, mortals become mechanically weak.
At high Refresh levels, people hardly ever play mortals.
I guess it's possible that the two aren't connected, but if I had to guess I'd say that the first causes the second. People will usually do what the rules encourage them to do.
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Just to throw it out, another way to adjust the power level is just to declare a different standard. If a weapon:2 can decimate a city block, even a feet in the water character will be considered a demigod.
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At high Refresh levels, mortals become mechanically weak.
At high Refresh levels, people hardly ever play mortals.
I guess it's possible that the two aren't connected, but if I had to guess I'd say that the first causes the second. People will usually do what the rules encourage them to do.
It occurs to me that the most likely mechanical reason for this is that the +2 refresh that Pure Mortals get falls off as a percentage of the whole refresh package pretty rapidly as the total pool increases. Pure Mortals might scale better if the bonus was +1 per 5 base refresh, for instance.
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@Sanctaphrax
I agree with you on the encouraging part - the book, as I alluded to, definitely wants you to be mint-choclate chip or rainbow sherbert versus vanilla (mmm...ice cream). I haven't actually had the fortune of playing a mortal at a high refresh so I couldn't say if they work or not. I will say though the next time the opprotunity comes up and if I have the right concept/game for it, I will definitely give it a try - thanks for the inspiration.
@Vairelome
Interesting idea. Though is extra refresh going to give them more bang for their buck (comparitively) when they lack access to anything other than Stunts?
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More refresh will always give you more bang for your buck (unless you spend it on something that never has any impact on the game, but that's a failure at proper character building not limited to this case). In a 15 refresh game where mortals get 18 refresh instead of 17, or a 20 refresh game where mortals get 24 instead of 22, I don't think the mortal characters are suddenly going to be all of the top build options. I don't know how much it would narrow the gap between mortals and casters/shifters/vampires/etc., but it should narrow it somewhat, and probably won't unbalance the situation the other direction.
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@Vairelome
I wouldn't mind playing around with it. It's an interesting idea.
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Mortals with stunts can end up being strong in a much wider range of things in a high refresh game. They can dump points into a lot of social and knowledge stunts and be hardcore there.
The problem is that they will never be as strong as a supe focused in a similar area at least far as combat goes.
After a mortal gets an apex skill, a +1 to hit, and a +2 to damage they are pretty much done.
Mortal sword guy (+7, weapon 4) fantastic weapons, sword 2, two stunts.
Compare that to a supe doing the same thing ( this is without even maxing it out)
Apex skill +6 , iop sword lvl 5, sup str. 4 dam
(+6, weapon 9) normally this guy also takes the +1 to attack but we will pretend he didn't
You can of course make the argument that mortals will get more fp and that will balance it out. That doesn't have much merit in my opinion. They can't afford to drop 2 fp every attack just to keep up with a supe. Especially when they can't afford to be hit if they want to keep breathing.
The mooks in our 18 lvl refresh game our blampires.
This doesn't even touch on wizards who can easily toss around +12weapon 12 at this level.
The mortal can be a hell of a lot more versatile, but he isn't the best at anything.
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To get back to the original characters a bit - one thing I'd suggest, particularly for the were-raven described, is not buying beast change. Buy the wings, buy claws & diminutive size if you want (both are optional - lack of claws power just means your claws are weapon: 0, while lack of diminutive size... well, some ravens can get pretty darned big.) And then take a human form limitation on those powers, or even a -0 Human Guise power - bang, done. You're, mechanically (if not necessarily thematically) a raven that can turn into a person; all beast change offers you is a skill swap - and if you're already a sneaky athletic perceptive type person, the skill swap doesn't do much for you. It's great for a scholar that can turn into a tiger; for a thief that turns into a raven... not so much.
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@polkaneverdies
Oh I agree regarding combat...I wouldn't roll a vanilla human and expect to take him into straight fights against wizards and vampires. But then, I wouldn't think of rolling that kind of character in a game that was billed to essentially be "there will be lots of straight fights, no angles to work, kill or be killed" - forced to play by those rules, a Pure Mortal template character would die...horribly.
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To get back to the original characters a bit - one thing I'd suggest, particularly for the were-raven described, is not buying beast change. Buy the wings, buy claws & diminutive size if you want (both are optional - lack of claws power just means your claws are weapon: 0, while lack of diminutive size... well, some ravens can get pretty darned big.)
Well the beast change is a must for were-form template by the book. I can imagine a concept of a animal that can turn into human form, but it's not suitable here.
A related question.. can werecreatures talk when in animal form, ie do they have magical voice box?
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Don't get hung up on the templates too much. If you have an idea for a character concept that doesn't fit into the templates, simply ignore the templates.
Since some animals are able to mimic human words, it would make sense for a were- of such an animal to be able to do so as well. Maybe not exactly like normal speech, but a few select words should be possible. The wereraven I had created could croak single syllable words. Not much, but enough. Then again, if it's all right with your group, you could decide to be able to speak normally in animal form. Or maybe allow for some sort of telepathic communication
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Well the beast change is a must for were-form template by the book. I can imagine a concept of a animal that can turn into human form, but it's not suitable here.
A related question.. can werecreatures talk when in animal form, ie do they have magical voice box?
As far as the source material goes, no they cannot talk in their animal form any more than the actual animal can.
Though as already stated, you can work around that. Especially if you have a a player with thaumaturgy or a ritual crafter. I would personally start the character "as is" unable to talk to anyone in animal form. Then see what the players come up with to work around it if it becomes an issue.
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Oh I agree regarding combat...I wouldn't roll a vanilla human and expect to take him into straight fights against wizards and vampires.
I would.
Just not at 18 Refresh.
PS: Mechanically speaking, there's no real reason for all were-forms to be unable to speak. So if you want to play a special werewolf who can talk for some reason, you just need to make sure that your Aspects reflect what the specialness of your werewolf.
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@Sanctaphrax
I would.
Just not at 18 Refresh.
Tis what I was referring to.
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Thanks, I obviously need to read the magic rules more carefully but this should help me (and make one of my players happy). I might return with a follow up questions though, be warned. :)
Coming back to this.. Vairelome's initial explanation for crafting helped me to understand or at least focus at the correct rules. However, I have one more issue that I'm not sure how to interpret. From the end of Ritual power (p182 YS):
You may gain more Item Slots as one of the options on the Refinement ability (page 182)—but you may only buy Refinement for that purpose. All items created for those slots must be in keeping with the single application you’ve chosen for your power.
What does the bolded bit mean in Ritual(Crafting) context?
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Coming back to this.. Vairelome's initial explanation for crafting helped me to understand or at least focus at the correct rules. However, I have one more issue that I'm not sure how to interpret. From the end of Ritual power (p182 YS):
What does the bolded bit mean in Ritual(Crafting) context?
I don't think it would really apply. As your theme IS crafting, it's basically the inverse of the concept. You cant do anything but craft items using Ritual, where as say an Ectomancer who wanted to craft an item would have to keep the item in the theme of Ectomancy.
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I don't think it would really apply. As your theme IS crafting, it's basically the inverse of the concept. You cant do anything but craft items using Ritual, where as say an Ectomancer who wanted to craft an item would have to keep the item in the theme of Ectomancy.
This.
The single application chosen is crafting anything.
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This.
The single application chosen is crafting anything.
But since items would be kept within crafting by the rule, their function would be helpful for.. crafting. Or am in some weird (il)logical loop that I cannot escape and just don't see it?
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Crafting items is a thaumaturgic function, however it's also narrow enough to be considered a theme. Themes allow all functions of magic flavored by that theme.
Necromancy for instance can do crafting, divination, solve impossible problems, summoning, Conjuration, etc. As long as the magic performed has a necromantic flavor it's fine.
So crafting themed magic can also do crafting, divination, wards, conjuration, summoning, solving impossible problems, divination, etc. As long as an item is being crafted that holds and executes the spell then it can do whatever you can think of.
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The reason that the powers are written the way they are is so that they don't have to write a specific set of powers for every possible variation.
So, a guy to turns into a crow might look like like:
-1 echoes of the beast
-1 beast change
+1 human form, covering:
-1 Wings
-1 Diminutive size
=
-3 refresh
While a guy who turns into a T-Rex might look like
-1 echoes of the beast
-1 beast change
+1 human form, covering:
-2 inhuman speed
-6 mythic strength
-6 mythic toughness
-2 hulking size
=
-17 refresh
But the people who wrote the book don't need to write a specific 'turn into a bird for -3 refresh' power, just like they don't need to write a 'turn into a T-Rex for -17 refresh' power.
So, for example, you might build yourself an 'amnesiac assassin' type character who has beast change, but doesn't turn into anything at all. He just switches from being a nice chef to Mr. Kill Bot in his head, without any creature features at all.
Or you can change forms without the beast change power, if you don't feel like changing your skill totals around, or whatever.
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One thing that pure mortals with very high refresh can do is act as human bombs.
Example:
Harry Dresden: "We are really in trouble here, my force 10 combat evocations barely scratch it!"
Juan Doe, the human bomb: "I got this"
Juan Doe steps forward and swings his might fist of justice (And pays fate points to invoke around 12 aspects). My fists total is 30. No, I don't have any stunts that up my fists damage.
Harry Dresden: "... That was a demi-god, Juan, and you laid it out with one punch. How did you do that?"
Juan Doe: "Un poco con la puño de Juan y otro poco con la mano de Dios"
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Admittedly, I think that's a bit silly. But I do see how being able to hand of god something once a session could appeal to some players.