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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Polarbearguy90 on March 09, 2013, 10:52:23 PM

Title: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Polarbearguy90 on March 09, 2013, 10:52:23 PM
Okay, I am about to GM a DFRPG game for the first time. One of my players is a wizard biker, he want to eventually make a motorcycle that can run on its own(no gas) and may have a few magical functions such as leaving a trail of fire or being able to drive up walls, or shoot blasts from the headlight exct.. I thought it might be a cool idea to make the bike almost like Bob. The Old Harley would be a container for a spirit of fire and courage. How exactly could this be done?
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Tedronai on March 09, 2013, 11:01:05 PM
I'd suggest building it as an Item of Power granting the wielder some measure of Speed (probably Supernatural, but possibly Mythic), along with Spider Climb, Breath Weapon, etc.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Polarbearguy90 on March 09, 2013, 11:08:26 PM
Thats one area I have gotten a good grasp of yet, How exactly do items of power work?
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Ulfgeir on March 09, 2013, 11:16:09 PM
Another idea would be to take a look at an epsiode of the Manga "Ah! My Goddess" Where they had a car-race. The kikcer was that the ngine was powered by 5 very small trolls that pushed/pulled the valves around. And they really didn't like it when the opposition tried putting something in the gastank.

/Ulfgeir
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Tedronai on March 10, 2013, 12:02:41 AM
Quote from: Polarbearguy90 on March 09, 2013, 11:08:26 PM
Thats one area I have gotten a good grasp of yet, How exactly do items of power work?

In terms of game mechanics, Items of Power are very simple.  They provide a predetermined package of supernatural powers to whoever possesses, controls and/or utilizes the item, so long as that individual meets certain criteria, while providing a small rebate on the Refresh cost of those powers to compensate for the limitations that come with those powers being external to the character, and thus more readily neutralised by the character's enemies, or even simply by circumstance.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 10, 2013, 02:58:34 AM
You also get whatever effects the mundane object has for free. So any effect you could get from a normal motorcycle with a gun strapped to it, you can have without spending Refresh.

Speaking for myself, I'd also let you have minor stuff like infinite gas for free. Just take an Aspect.

Are you interested in custom rules? If so, I have some for you.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: polkaneverdies on March 11, 2013, 02:08:32 PM
The "best" way to model this would definitely be to make it an IOP.

The big problem with this is that  he still has to pay refresh for the powers. (+2 is max rebate). Unless he is different than almost every wizard I have ever seen he is probably short on refresh.
 
That being said I would just make it:
IOP- Firey Old Hog (-1)
  +2 pretty damn hard to hide
   spider climb -1
   breath weapon -2

Those two powers would cover what he wants that a bike couldn't do. reflavored speed powers would be cool, but very pricey. I agree with Sancta about not paying for free gas. Trails of fire could also be free or could be another use of the breath weapon.

Personally if I was the wizard in question I wouldn't take this approach (unless he spends most of the game on this bike). I would just keep a few enchanted item/potion slots open and feel you out to see if you would be open to using them to supplement the bike without it automatically Hexing the bike. iirc to actually mimic a power like spider climb you would still have to spend a fate point in addition to the spell. The headlight attack could just be a standard attack potion or e.i. 
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: polkaneverdies on March 11, 2013, 02:42:55 PM
the more I think about it the more I think breath weapon would be a really poor choice for the wizard. I would just give him a weapon 2 attack for free like Sancta seemed to imply with his comment about "it is what it is" being able to do every thing a motorcycle with a shotgun could do. Instead I would have it give him inhuman toughness while he was riding it. He will need it when someone collapses the wall he is driving up.

If you don't want to give him a fairly useless power for free then just allow him to use some potion slots for the occasional attack. Same mechanics as normal potions they are just "flavored" as shot from the motorcycle.

My comments are based on this thing not being used very often in battle. If it will see a lot of action then B.W. would have a correspondingly higher value.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on March 11, 2013, 05:04:33 PM
I would really just have the bike use enchanted item slots, not be an IoP.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Quantus on March 11, 2013, 07:07:52 PM
What if you made it some shard of the Wild Hunt Magic, so that it gains certain powers and a Totemic theme, like what happened to
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: HumAnnoyd on March 12, 2013, 06:36:33 PM
Quote
I would really just have the bike use enchanted item slots, not be an IoP.

How would you implement it?

We have a character in our campaign who is the son of Odin. He has a motorcycle that is effectively Slepnir in bike form.  Through group consensus we decided to use enchanted item slots but I am not sure it really works.  I would love to hear what you would suggest.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: polkaneverdies on March 12, 2013, 07:02:24 PM
Can you please give us details on what the bike/horse is supposed to be able to do?
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Quantus on March 12, 2013, 07:25:47 PM
What are the rules for summoned creatures?  Its not something Ive looked into before, but it might fit what you are after.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Tedronai on March 12, 2013, 10:05:15 PM
Other than a very basic system by which to acquire the services of a creature by summoning it and then binding it, there are essentially no rules, there.

A few house-ruled systems have been proposed on these boards, that I'm aware of, though I'm not sufficiently familiar with their details that I'm comfortable explaining them.  If you're interested, I'm sure someone else would provide a link and some helpful explanation where necessary.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 13, 2013, 03:29:56 AM
Yo. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24744.msg1084269.html#msg1084269)

If you look elsewhere in that thread, you'll also find some vehicle rules.

Which reminds me...the mechanics you give to a magical motorcycle will really depend on the mechanics you give to a mundane motorcycle. So you might want to try modelling an ordinary bike in the game rules before you design your fire/courage/Sleipnir bike.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Quantus on March 13, 2013, 01:59:25 PM
Well lets look at what a supernatural motorcycle could give a player, over what mundane equivalents would offer.  Offhand I can think of:

-Mobility: Can Drive on walls/water/etc
-Flight:  Can ignore gravity entirely, and move freely in 3 dimensions.  Movement rate, maneuverability, etc is otherwise unchanged.
-Travel:     Has a high Top Speed and Endurance, or some other mechanism (NN travel, time dilation, etc) to facilitate speedy long distance travel
-Maneuverability:  Has increased Speed and Handling, making it more maneuverable than a mundane bike.  Enough to make it useful in combat situations
-Offensive ranged Attack:  Comparable to a Shotgun, so cost would be based on that as a benchmark
-Availability:  The bike makes itself available within reason, but through supernatural means (IE is it always outside and waiting for you whenever you need it, comes when you whistle, etc)
-Summonable: The bike can appear out of thin air, even in the middle of a courtroom or a fall from an airplane.
-Stealth: Can operate silently, for the stalking of prey.
-Camouflage: Offers supernatural veiling function of some degree.
-Non-traditional Consumables:  Does not require Gas or Ammo, but has some other basic needs that must be provided for (ie.  Must be turned loose to hunt the weak and feeble prius’s/prius’/Prii?   [Damn Correspondence Course], is powered by moonlight and must bath in it, or must be struck by lightning once a month, etc)
-No Consumables: Does not require gas/ammo/feeding to function.   
-Sentience:  Has some level of intelligence, from basic animal instinct, to a limited ability to understand basic spoken instructions, to full-on Knight-Rider talking vehicle with snark. 


And from there you tweak the other limitations.  Can you loose control of it?  How long does it take to activate/invoke/summon?  How long can you keep it active?  Is it obviously Supernatural, so it will cause a stir in public? 
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: HumAnnoyd on March 14, 2013, 04:43:25 PM
In our game we kept it pretty simple which is usually a good thing but I think the nebulous nature of the thing has ended up giving the player a pretty potent IOP for cheap.  It is treated as an enchanted item taking up slots for the character's magic.  This is what we have:

SLEIPNIR THE MOTORCYCLE
Maneuver for Aspect ‘Mind of its own’ 3 at 2x use per session. Maneuver for Aspect ‘Fast as the wind’ 3 at 2x use per session.

Now he hasn't really used it to drive up walls although it has traveled over water and been fairly important to the game.  In fact it has been a bit too powerful for the small amount of character resources invested into it.  At least in my opinion. I wanted it to be an item of power when the character was proposed but the GM at the time decided on this.  I think it only take up a couple of enchanted item slots which seems really cheap if you ask me.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 14, 2013, 10:09:46 PM
Not sure how that could be overpowered. It's bog standard maneuver stuff.

Unless you're saying enchanted items in general are too good?

Anyway, pretty much everything on Quantus' list looks pretty easy to stat to me. As I said before, the mundane motorcycle stuff is the tricky part.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: HumAnnoyd on March 14, 2013, 10:14:16 PM
Sorry. I am not saying that what I listed is overpowered.  In play we end up giving the player a lot more ability because of the story of it more than the actual mechanics that we used.  Probably because of the mundane motorcycle part.  It is mostly just an issue with how we are handling it more than anything.  Which is why I asked what you guys would suggest out of curiosity.  I feel that it would be best handled as an IoP but was voted down in the discussions. 
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 14, 2013, 10:20:12 PM
Quote from: HumAnnoyd on March 14, 2013, 10:14:16 PM
In play we end up giving the player a lot more ability because of the story of it more than the actual mechanics that we used.

Overpoweredness is probably inevitable, then.

I think it would help to define what a mundane bike can do. Then you can be clear on what needs to be paid for with FP/Refresh.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: polkaneverdies on March 14, 2013, 10:27:34 PM
Occasional compel for the magic to hex it at a crucial moment.
Assuming that your game happens between ww2 and present day, mortal magic wreaks havoc on technology. Everyone once in a while that needs to blow up in his face.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Tedronai on March 15, 2013, 02:05:25 AM
Quote from: polkaneverdies on March 14, 2013, 10:27:34 PM
Occasional compel for the magic to hex it at a crucial moment.
Assuming that your game happens between ww2 and present day, mortal magic wreaks havoc on technology. Everyone once in a while that needs to blow up in his face.
Those are compels.  Compels, in their presence or their absence, equally, are net-neutral events.  They are not a tool for game balance, but are there to provide compensation for narrative events that enhance the story as a whole at the cost of a particular character's convenience.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: polkaneverdies on March 15, 2013, 02:36:42 AM
I agree Tedronai.
HumAnnoyd's problem with his fellow player's bike is narrative rather than system though. The system in place is no that impressive. His group is just ignoring it when it would "make a cool scene" and it seems to be rubbing him the wrong way. Having it occasionally crash and burn would address the issue.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Quantus on March 15, 2013, 12:41:43 PM
Well, it is a horse in motorcycle form. You can always have it get pissed, or injured, and run off for a little while.  It could even be a hook for a whole side adventure, recovering and/or repairing it. 
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Tedronai on March 15, 2013, 01:02:48 PM
Quote from: polkaneverdies on March 15, 2013, 02:36:42 AM
I agree Tedronai.
HumAnnoyd's problem with his fellow player's bike is narrative rather than system though. The system in place is no that impressive. His group is just ignoring it when it would "make a cool scene" and it seems to be rubbing him the wrong way. Having it occasionally crash and burn would address the issue.

Having it occasionally crash and burn without compensation would address the issue, but that's not what is typically referred to by the term 'Compel' (and applying Debt retroactively just so you can Compel it right at that moment is what is referred to be the technical term 'a dick move').

What needs to be done going forward is to actually charge FPs, or, if appropriate, Debt, for those 'cool scene' benefits.  THIS would actually address the balance issues (without being a jerk about it).
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: polkaneverdies on March 15, 2013, 01:35:49 PM
Tedronai please reread the post that first drew a response from you.
I didn't say screw him over without compensation.
I said compel him to have his magic hex his motorcycle.
At that point it either pulls a blue beetle and he gets a fp or he pays a fp and gets to save the day.

Either way humannoyed can't railroad the player with the motorcycle because he isn't the gm. All he can do is raise the issue with his group.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Tedronai on March 15, 2013, 01:57:14 PM
Quote from: polkaneverdies on March 15, 2013, 01:35:49 PM
Tedronai please reread the post that first drew a response from you.
I didn't say screw him over without compensation.
I said compel him to have his magic hex his motorcycle.
At that point it either pulls a blue beetle and he gets a fp or he pays a fp and gets to save the day.

Either way humannoyed can't railroad the player with the motorcycle because he isn't the gm. All he can do is raise the issue with his group.

I did read it.
Adding new complications (Compels) along with appropriate compensation (FPs) will not actually affect the problem of separate unpaid-for benefits.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: HumAnnoyd on March 15, 2013, 03:12:39 PM
Quote
Either way humannoyed can't railroad the player with the motorcycle because he isn't the gm. All he can do is raise the issue with his group.

Umm.  Well actually I do GM the game it just isn't my turn right now.  And I am not in the habit of railroading characters thank you very much. 

This issue isn't a huge deal to me.  I was curious how others would handle it since it was brought up in this topic.  Yes I think the player has received a very powerful item for next to no cost.  Compelling it to fail around magic won't work because A.) It is a magical mythical horse in motorcycle form and B.) the player uses Sponsored Odin magic which wouldn't necessarily hex stuff like mortal magic. 

Quote
Well, it is a horse in motorcycle form. You can always have it get pissed, or injured, and run off for a little while.  It could even be a hook for a whole side adventure, recovering and/or repairing it.

And this gives me food for thought for my next run as GM. 

Quote
I think it would help to define what a mundane bike can do. Then you can be clear on what needs to be paid for with FP/Refresh.

I guess the issue isn't really that big a deal overall.  I was just hoping to see some alternate ways to handle it so I could make a proposal to the group about it.  This seems like the best suggestion so far I think.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: Polarbearguy90 on March 15, 2013, 09:33:22 PM
In my game, he is not starting out having his bike magical. His character is a gear head made wizard, specializing in bikes. He generally only uses earth evocation and greatly prefers thematurgy over evocation. As a gear head he mostly makes magic items The bike in question is a 1940s era Harley. Once I figure out how hes going to pay for it, either refresh(that he will earn over time) or enchantment slots I am going to bring it up in game. I like the idea that the engine becomes powered by a spirit of fire,  he may meet and get the loyalty of it in game through some means.
Title: Re: Magic Motorcycle
Post by: S1C0 on March 26, 2013, 06:22:41 AM
just give it modular ability and a weakness to thresholds and call it a homunclocycle a man bike if you would