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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Lavecki121 on February 25, 2013, 10:26:53 PM
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So I made a character that has sponsored magic and the EvoThaum that goes with it. I then made a focus item that enhanced his thamaturgical abilities. Does this bonus stay when casting evothaum or does it need to be broken down further (attack/defense) or does it stay the same?
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This question is left unanswered in the RAW. Any answers that might be given represent only the opinion of the individual answering. (ask your GM/table)
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Transferring my answer to this thread:
I personally think you have to choose. I think for sponsored magic you have the the flexibility of choice. You can choose the bonus to apply to an evocation but then you have to decide the usual stuff like power/control, defense/offense or you can choose to apply it to thaum, but then that's it. It kind of feels like double-dipping(actually triple or quadrupal dipping) if it can apply to everything at once.
And actually, if he took the evocation foci(from the evocation power) and applied them to the element "chronomancy" then he could have that bonus, but I don't see those evocation foci crossing over to a thaumaturgical application. And the only reason he can do that is because has sponsored magic otherwise that element wouldn't be available to him.
So, in my mind, I can see there being a +4 chronomancy evo-thaum attack for the reasons I just mentionned, but he'd have to choose offense/defense and he couldn't apply them to actual Thaumaturgy.
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This question is left unanswered in the RAW. Any answers that might be given represent only the opinion of the individual answering. (ask your GM/table)
Thats why I put it here. Basically to ask oppinions and get other peoples take on it.
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As a member of said table, my opinion is to make Thamaturgy focuses apply but only if the spell is really a Thaumaturgy effect being applied through Evo-thaum. So, in Lavecki's characters case, if he wants Ethan to fly back in time to 1955 and meet up with his parents at their highschool dance, then sure.
Anything that has an Evocation effect would still be Evocation foci.
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I think it's better to use Thaumaturgy bonuses for evothaum, to avoid the silliness of having evothaum that's better than your actual thaumaturgy.
This does allow you to circumvent the whole offensive/defensive thing, but since thaumaturgical attacks have no weapon rating and thaumaturgical blocks aren't as convenient as evocation blocks it might not be necessary to differentiate between the two for evothaum.
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Well said Sanctaphrax.
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I think it's better to use Thaumaturgy bonuses for evothaum, to avoid the silliness of having evothaum that's better than your actual thaumaturgy.
This does allow you to circumvent the whole offensive/defensive thing, but since thaumaturgical attacks have no weapon rating and thaumaturgical blocks aren't as convenient as evocation blocks it might not be necessary to differentiate between the two for evothaum.
When applied to Sancta's particular interpretation of the meaning of 'evothaum', that logic works reasonably well.
I have a different interpretation, one where having weapon ratings and all that jazz that goes with evocation is a part of 'evocation's methods', and applied in that instance, it makes little sense.
As I said, though, it is a differing interpretations of the rules that creates this lack of sense.
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@Tedronai
I would point out that Evo-Thaum is still Thaumaturgy - it's just very fast Thaumaturgy in the sense that it removes the ritual and complexity. It just makes your Thaumaturgy more flexible. Now I would put this out to you, or Sanctaphrax or anyone else: BAS (Big Ass Spells) that are juiced up evocations are possible - massive earthquakes, fiery maelstroms, dropping a satellite on someone's head. Would such things even be possible with Evo-thaum (in the sense that one has to build up the number of shifts of power to do it)?
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So if I have say chronomancy as an element grabbed by sponsored magic. Is it safe to say I could make a focus item to chronomancy control attack?
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In this case Chronomancy is the Evo-thaum theme isn't it?
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It would be yes. Also why don't thaumaturgical attacks have weapon ratings? And why are shells created in this way less effective than evocation?
I think it's better to use Thaumaturgy bonuses for evothaum, to avoid the silliness of having evothaum that's better than your actual thaumaturgy.
This does allow you to circumvent the whole offensive/defensive thing, but since thaumaturgical attacks have no weapon rating and thaumaturgical blocks aren't as convenient as evocation blocks it might not be necessary to differentiate between the two for evothaum.
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@Tedronai
I would point out that Evo-Thaum is still Thaumaturgy - it's just very fast Thaumaturgy in the sense that it removes the ritual and complexity. It just makes your Thaumaturgy more flexible. Now I would put this out to you, or Sanctaphrax or anyone else: BAS (Big Ass Spells) that are juiced up evocations are possible - massive earthquakes, fiery maelstroms, dropping a satellite on someone's head. Would such things even be possible with Evo-thaum (in the sense that one has to build up the number of shifts of power to do it)?
By my interpretation, EvoThaum allows the 'what you can do with it' portion of the thaumaturgy section, using the methods of evocation, which I interpret to mean the 'how you do it' portion of the evocation section.
Assuming one was absurdly powerful enough to have sufficient effective conviction for the purposes of that particular area of the Craft, I see no reason why a Tunguska-like event could not be modelled using conventional evocation. In my opinion, the presence or absence of EvoThaum would neither help nor hinder in that task.
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Evo-thaum, in that case, would allow me to drop a satellite on you right away where as someone without it would have to prepare in advance. This is assuming the level of power to do it.
All Evo-thaum is doing is Thaumaturgy minus the complexity portion - still have to have power and control of course. It just cuts out a step. Very useful but I guess the point of contention here is what is that it's still Thaumaturgy and therefore "limited" to the sorts of spell under its auspices.
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See I think I agree with Tedronai. It's the methods of evocation. I think you use evocation foci, not thaumaturgy.
I think if you have to adjudicate every spell, it could get tedious. What is the difference between a thaumaturgy block and an evocation block if it is done at the speed of evocation?
I don't understand what sanctaphrax means by when he says thaumaturgy blocks are less convenient.
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@Taran
Evo-thaum isn't being done with Elements however it is being done with the Thaumaturgy theme of the Sponsored Magic. How would you reconcile that with Evocation foci?
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@Taran
Evo-thaum isn't being done with Elements however it is being done with the Thaumaturgy theme of the Sponsored Magic. How would you reconcile that with Evocation foci?
Simply treat the thaumaturgy theme as though it were itself an element, and bam!, reconciled.
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@Tedronai
Sure, if that works for the way you see the rules and if you can get everyone to agree to that in your group!
If I had to give my personal opinion on that: an Element is an Element and a branch/theme of Thaumaturgy is a branch/theme of Thaumaturgy. It seems clear that the rule system is divided along those two lines. Evo-thaum just makes for "complex" spells that are fast - thus use of the Thaumaturgy foci for it.
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I still don't understand why thaumaturgical attacks don't have weapon ratings...
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@Tedronai
Sure, if that works for the way you see the rules and if you can get everyone to agree to that in your group!
If I had to give my personal opinion on that: an Element is an Element and a branch/theme of Thaumaturgy is a branch/theme of Thaumaturgy. It seems clear that the rule system is divided along those two lines. Evo-thaum just makes for "complex" spells that are fast - thus use of the Thaumaturgy foci for it.
What is soul fire? An element or a theme? I see it as both. So now where you draw the line?
My opinion is the line is drawn by the mechanics.
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I always figured that to pull off an evothaum you can assume some things are the same, an attack is an attack, and shifts generated for weapon rating and control are the same as for regular evocation. A block is a block, and same with maneuvers. The big difference is that you gain narratively different ways to create those effects. Basically combat magic will look the same as with regular casters but will have a different flavor.
The real perk of evothaum is to be able to cast rituals at basically instantaneous speed that fall outside of the usual combat options of attack, maneuver, block and counterspell. For instance you could do an Athletics skill replacement ritual at the speed of evocation. Of course to properly get that speed it would have to be a ritual that can be performed at no prep meaning it will be capped by your Lore and Lore Foci, and any Debt you're willing to accrue to make your spell go through or to ramp up its power.
It doesn't actually remove complexity at all this way, which implies to me getting more bang for your buck from an evothaum shift than a regular spell powering shift, so there isn't really anything changing except the speed at which the spell is being cast. And that particular change mostly just speeds up play without getting too overpowered.
That being the way I interpreted it, then I would allow Thaumaturgy foci to function with Evothaum since the Evothaum you'll be doing is capped, unlike regular rituals and Thaumaturgy. Even if you pull off something stupidly big with your Evothaum it's only going to be by burning Fate Points or taking Debt.
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@Lavecki
Attacking is the realm of Evocation apparently? :-\
@Taran
As a source of power it effects both - for the purposes of Evo-thaum it would have a theme from Thaumaturgy (if it was known that is!). The Evo-thaum within Soul Fire Sponsored Magic would still be fast Thaumaturgy which would act with Thaumaturgy's foci. As I see it.
@Mrmdubois
Agreed!
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So then his evothaum spell is capped by his lore?
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So then his evothaum spell is capped by his lore?
It's capped by Lore, Complexity Bonus Foci, Sponsor Debt, and available Fate Points.
So is regular Thaumaturgy, except switch out Sponsor Debt for ritual Complexity Declarations.
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I always figured that to pull off an evothaum you can assume some things are the same, an attack is an attack, and shifts generated for weapon rating and control are the same as for regular evocation. A block is a block, and same with maneuvers. The big difference is that you gain narratively different ways to create those effects. Basically combat magic will look the same as with regular casters but will have a different flavor.
The real perk of evothaum is to be able to cast rituals at basically instantaneous speed that fall outside of the usual combat options of attack, maneuver, block and counterspell. For instance you could do an Athletics skill replacement ritual at the speed of evocation. Of course to properly get that speed it would have to be a ritual that can be performed at no prep meaning it will be capped by your Lore and Lore Foci, and any Debt you're willing to accrue to make your spell go through or to ramp up its power.
It doesn't actually remove complexity at all this way, which implies to me getting more bang for your buck from an evothaum shift than a regular spell powering shift, so there isn't really anything changing except the speed at which the spell is being cast. And that particular change mostly just speeds up play without getting too overpowered.
That being the way I interpreted it, then I would allow Thaumaturgy foci to function with Evothaum since the Evothaum you'll be doing is capped, unlike regular rituals and Thaumaturgy. Even if you pull off something stupidly big with your Evothaum it's only going to be by burning Fate Points or taking Debt.
Your first paragraph (essentially equivalent to my interpretation) seems to be directly contradicted by every paragraph that follows.
How do you reconcile this discrepancy? Or am I misinterpreting your intent?
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It just seems very powerful to have a focus item of +4 go across the board when a normal caster has to divi that +4 between 2 casting types, then again into offence and defence.
It's capped by Lore, Complexity Bonus Foci, Sponsor Debt, and available Fate Points.
So is regular Thaumaturgy, except switch out Sponsor Debt for ritual Complexity Declarations.
But by that it uses the speed of evocation but not the means?
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In play though, isn't the point of Sponsored Magic to be that two-edged sword? Sure, it's powerful but it also isn't your own. It has...requirements that might fall outside what someone might want.
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Well I don't know about attacks but it seems that thaumaturgy defensive magic(wards) are much more effective than blocks since if the opposing force doesn't beat the block strength, they get an equivalent attack back
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In play though, isn't the point of Sponsored Magic to be that two-edged sword? Sure, it's powerful but it also isn't your own. It has...requirements that might fall outside what someone might want.
And those are properly handled through Compels, particularly (but not necessarily exclusively) against Debt.
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Well I don't know about attacks but it seems that thaumaturgy defensive magic(wards) are much more effective than blocks since if the opposing force doesn't beat the block strength, they get an equivalent attack back
But more limited, since they necessitate a threshold.
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Aye...and role-play. My point was the power is justified because it isn't free or without hooks.
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Your first paragraph (essentially equivalent to my interpretation) seems to be directly contradicted by every paragraph that follows.
How do you reconcile this discrepancy? Or am I misinterpreting your intent?
You might be misinterpreting, but I might not be explaining clearly.
Basically my first paragraph is saying that using Evothaum to perform attack options is really the same as using Evocation in terms of how it's accomplished. The portfolio of the sponsored magic dictates the flavor of your combat casting just like an element would. Technically you're using a speedy ritual to accomplish those actions, but all shifts being equal it looks like evocation with a different "element." Of course since you can do a ritual at the speed of evocation, and rituals tend to have broader applicability than the four options of combat magic, you get the rest of what I said tacked on.
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Basically my first paragraph is saying that using Evothaum to perform attack options is really the same as using Evocation in terms of how it's accomplished. The portfolio of the sponsored magic dictates the flavor of your combat casting just like an element would. Technically you're using a speedy ritual to accomplish those actions, but all shifts being equal it looks like evocation with a different "element." Of course since you can do a ritual at the speed of evocation, and rituals tend to have broader applicability than the four options of combat magic, you get the rest of what I said tacked on.
For that portion that is 'tacked on', then, where is the 'evocation's methods' portion of 'evocations speed and methods'?
It seems to me, then, that you're talking about using two systems depending on how the ritual is being described. If it's being described as an attack, you're using the evocation system, but if it's being described as something less tangible to the conflict resolution system, you're using (edit: a slightly modified form of) the thaumaturgy system.
This confuses me.
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I don't understand what sanctaphrax means by when he says thaumaturgy blocks are less convenient.
You need a threshold for a ward. You can't just cast a Harry-style shield spell using the Thaumaturgy time-scale.
I still don't understand why thaumaturgical attacks don't have weapon ratings...
No special reason, as far as I know. They simply don't.
Check out Sells' killing spell. Accuracy 36, weapon 0.
And that's not just a weird example, it's consistent with the rules elsewhere. You cast an X-shift attack-type spell, you get X accuracy and no weapon rating.
PS: Given the fairly open-ended nature of Thaumaturgy a GM could allow weapon ratings on rituals or convenient ritual blocks without actually contradicting the rules, but that sort of thing is in house rules territory and not really possible to discuss here.
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I question the ward threshold rule with an example: how is the ward used by the Merlin and the Gatekeeper against the Red Court army in Dead Beat pulled off? I doubt there was a "threshold" in the NeverNever. Thoughts?
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I'm away from books at the moment, but maybe someone else could confirm on my behalf:
Isn't there a rather key 'weasel word' in the text describing the relationship between wards and thresholds?
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I question the ward threshold rule with an example: how is the ward used by the Merlin and the Gatekeeper against the Red Court army in Dead Beat pulled off? I doubt there was a "threshold" in the NeverNever. Thoughts?
Guess: It was done in the gateway between the real world and the Nevernever. I'd say those pretty clearly have a Threshold equivalent.
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All I see with Wards and Thresholds is the language that says a ward acts similar to a threshold. It is also described a very potent block. Perhaps someone can point to me the section where a threshold is a requirement for a ward?
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@Deadmanwalking
I would have to re-read that part of Dead Beat, but that isn't how I recall seeing it happening. Ultimately I think that is one of those gray area examples that can be interpreted in different ways.
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All I see with Wards and Thresholds is the language that says a ward acts similar to a threshold. It is also described a very potent block. Perhaps someone can point to me the section where a threshold is a requirement for a ward?
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@Deadmanwalking
I would have to re-read that part of Dead Beat, but that isn't how I recall seeing it happening. Ultimately I think that is one of those gray area examples that can be interpreted in different ways.
I was slightly misremembering, actually. Re-reading, you don't need a Threshold, but if you'll look at the wording, it protects an area, and explicitly can't be moved (see the marginalia on p. 277). So that's the limitation I was thinking of.
And that was just a theory. Nobody actually describes what happens beyond him stopping an army with a Ward.
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Gotcha! In that I agree...it has to be somehow tethered where a block in Evocation is tethered by the will of the practitioner (thus moving with the practitioner).
True, true...but it's still awesome to imagine! ;)
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For that portion that is 'tacked on', then, where is the 'evocation's methods' portion of 'evocations speed and methods'?
It seems to me, then, that you're talking about using two systems depending on how the ritual is being described. If it's being described as an attack, you're using the evocation system, but if it's being described as something less tangible to the conflict resolution system, you're using (edit: a slightly modified form of) the thaumaturgy system.
This confuses me.
Evocations methods in my opinion are to call up power, to make a control roll, and to take a point of mental stress for any of the four combat options. My interpretation sticks with that but also allows rituals that don't fit one of the four combat options to be done the same way and at the same speed. Which I think is permissible since the intent is to blend Thaumaturgy and Evocation.
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The intent as I see it is not 'to blend Thaumaturgy and Evocation', but rather to make Thaumaturgy's narrative capabilities available to Evocation's mechanical methods, thus the 'shell game'.
I do not see how capping the potency of evothaum with (modified) Lore (or various other statements) is in line with Evocation's Methods.
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The intent as I see it is not 'to blend Thaumaturgy and Evocation', but rather to make Thaumaturgy's narrative capabilities available to Evocation's mechanical methods, thus the 'shell game'.
I do not see how capping the potency of evothaum with (modified) Lore (or various other statements) is in line with Evocation's Methods.
Which is basically what I described. You're correct about the Lore cap not being part of Evocation's mechanical methods though. The reason I see Lore as a cap on those narrative abilities as necessary is because Lore caps what you can do without preparation, which means it can also be done faster and is mechanically as close to evothaum as you can get without having sponsored magic (arbitrary time consumed by it being Thaumaturgy and thus slower no matter what notwithstanding). The reason to think about that is because the narrative thaumaturgy power you're wielding at the speed of evocation is obviously being done without preparation. Also, the Lore cap is a soft one because you can take Debt and spend FP to raise it. If a group decided you could do all the prep for a ritual of any complexity in the same second it takes to cast an evocation...I find that a little hard to fathom.
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I was slightly misremembering, actually. Re-reading, you don't need a Threshold, but if you'll look at the wording, it protects an area, and explicitly can't be moved (see the marginalia on p. 277). So that's the limitation I was thinking of.
And that was just a theory. Nobody actually describes what happens beyond him stopping an army with a Ward.
Wards don’t have a “scale” concern, the way that veils do, and they cannot move. They are almost always tied to a particular place’s natural thresholds—think of them as a super-boosted immune system—so they are limited by the size of that threshold. Without a threshold they can only be set up to cover a small area at most— usually a point of transition such as a doorway or intersection -YS 277
Also. I feel that evothaum allows the user the ability to use the sponsors granted magic, which is most often than not a thaumaturgical trapping, in the same way you could use evocation, ie the four methods of combat magic. Which brings me back to the original question, would the character be able to use the focus item for the thaumaturgical trapping during the evocation spells out would they need to make an evocation focus item using the thaumaturgical trapping as an "element"?
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Also. I feel that evothaum allows the user the ability to use the sponsors granted magic, which is most often than not a thaumaturgical trapping, in the same way you could use evocation, ie the four methods of combat magic. Which brings me back to the original question, would the character be able to use the focus item for the thaumaturgical trapping during the evocation spells out would they need to make an evocation focus item using the thaumaturgical trapping as an "element"?
I beleive that you choose your foci as an evocation foci and the sponsored magic allows you to choose the sponsor as an evocation element.
The only closeset thing I can think of is veils because it's one of the few things that cross-over.
If you take a Thaum veil control focus, it's not going to help you do evocation veils and vice versa. So if you take chronomancy as your evo element, it's not going to help your thaum chronomancy.
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Yea thats why I'm saying that. I guess I can see what you are saying though and that makes sense. However that goes back to a previous thread I saw about specialization. If I have to take a focus item that is evocation element then I should be able to take a specialization in that particular "element"
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@Lavecki
Thanks for that...per that and the novels, thresholds are the preferred anchors - but like everything in the Dresden-verse metaphysical system, there is no absolutes. Just gotta roll with it, just roll with it!
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#Evo-thaum Focus Items:
If we're using Thaumaturgy Focus Items in Evo-thaum and the shifts of power for the spells are using the complexity as a base would the complexity bonus on Focus Items be applied to the power in Evo-thaum? Or, since it's being skipped, does an Evo-thaum spell not benefit from that bonus?
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That's the problem with having it go across the board. It only works for control because control easily translates from thaum to evocation - they both use discipline.
Power/complexity uses Conviction/Lore.
So, if you're going to go the model that sanctaphrax suggested, then you'd use the speed of evocation and the method of thaumaturgy - Discipline and Lore because that's what your foci are based on.
If you're going with the model that Tedronai suggested, which is both speed and method of Evocation you'd use conviction and discipline.
Lastly, you could have your foci cross over (lore for thaum - conviction for evo) but you specifically have to lock in your foci that I don't think it should work that way.
It's one of the major issues I have with it going both ways. I think it's easiest to decide if your foci affect evocation or if they affect thaumaturgy. That way way you use evocation methods you use your evo foci and when you use your thaum methods you use your thaum foci.
Yea thats why I'm saying that. I guess I can see what you are saying though and that makes sense. However that goes back to a previous thread I saw about specialization. If I have to take a focus item that is evocation element then I should be able to take a specialization in that particular "element"
Well in your specific case you have sponsored magic AND evocation - which allows a specialty. I think, since you have a new "element" open to you, you could take that as a specialty...although, I'm not sure how this affects refinement. At the very least your specialties would only be applicable for evocation since sponsored magic doesn't specifically allow specializations
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@Taran
I agree that is apart of the issue - in my mind though, if you're creating an Evo-thaum Foci then it would have to apply ONLY to the Sponsored Magic. Build it as an Evocation foci for, lets say Summer Magic and it benefits Summer's Evo-thaum (or Summer only evocations).
The only issue with this solution is when you tack on Evocation and Thaumaturgy - some people might feel like the Evo-thaum foci becomes a "wasted" slot.
I feel that is the solution I am going to go with myself (I am building a faerie with Sponsored Magic at the moment) unless I see something that convinces me otherwise.
EDIT: Another issue that could come up is overlap here: so for example, Summer Magic is wrapped up with the Element of Fire - so does a faerie with Fire Evocation get both bonuses or just the greater of the two (a la YS)?
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How is it a wasted slot. You only get 4 foci no matter what kind of magic you have. They all apply to one of the types of magic. It's not superhumanely powerful but It's certainly not wasted. You get 4 like everyone else.
Here's a question: Do the foci from evocation HAVE to be set toward evocation and the foci from thaumaturgy put towards thaumaturgy?
Or can you have 4 foci (from 2 separate powers) go towards evocation, for instance. Because this would be the advantage of sponsored magic. Your foci could go into either.
Also, as I mentionned above, the advantage of taking thaumaturgy and evocation is the bonus elements you get in addition to the ability to specialize in your sponsored element.
The bonuses from summer fire gets stacked on to the bonuses from fire specialization, I would think.
My biggest complaint is the sheer number of bonuses you get. Lets count:
+4 evothaum control focus (counts as 4 focus slots) compare to a wizard trying to get the same bonuses:
+4 Veil control(4 slots)
+4 evocation spirit defensive control (4 slots)
+4 evocation spirit Offensive control (4 slots)
His 4 focus slots are the equivalent of 12 focus slots for a normal wizard. This is 4 refresh worth of refinements. Don't you think that's a bit much?
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@Taran
You don't have to try and convince me, I have no feeling on that particular point one way or another!
I would imagine that, Summer Magic acting as fire magic as it can, that one would just take the Summer Magic foci and only take additional Evocation foci for their other Elements. That seems more logical in this scenario eh?
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I'm not sure.
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Ok so say I take my foci into simply Attack chronomancy +4 as opposed to thaumaturgy like you are suggesting Taran. Now since sponsored magic gains the ability to "Color" my existing evocations, am i allowed to use this bonus for all attacks of evocation that I can tie into my 'colored' elements?
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Well, your Sponsored Magic is Time Manipulation yea? So in this scenario, the foci would apply to the Element of Time and the Evo-thaum of chronomancy. But in this case, it also wouldn't apply to your other Evocation Elements - they just color it for some effect (like a lightning bolt that's out of step with time, for example).
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Yeah, so your offensive chrono attacks would receive a +4 control boost. Therefore your chrono armour and defensive blocks would not be enhanced by the +4. It would also mean that you wouldn't get that bonus when doing full blown thaumaturgy.
Re-reading it, I can see it interpreted either way as Sanctaphrax mentionned. This would make your power would be the target number to avoid the spell and your control roll wouldn't be a target roll, just a roll to not take damage(exactly how thaumaturgy works). The advantage is the foci would also work with normal thaumaturgy.
I can see it working both ways and be balanced in both scenario's
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Pretty much...though how you're getting a nice point-and-boom spell out of something like Time I'd be interested in seeing. Thaumaturgy other then the Sponsored Magic chronomancy would need their own foci as Taran stated.
So, using my running example: Summer Magic Foci would +1 Offensive Evocation Power/Evo-thaum Biomancy Power.
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Pretty much...though how you're getting a nice point-and-boom spell out of something like Time I'd be interested in seeing. Thaumaturgy other then the Sponsored Magic chronomancy would need their own foci as Taran stated.
So, using my running example: Summer Magic Foci would +1 Offensive Evocation Power/Evo-thaum Biomancy Power.
Yup. Anything that falls under the "element" Summer sponsored magic would gain a +1 offensive boost. Like making plants grow and entangle people or changing them into toads...which I assume is offensive biomancy?
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I think it would be more like...malform their arm or add a tail. I've never interpreted biomancy as being transformation in the "POOF you're a toad" kind of way. But maybe I'm screwed up mentally...
EDIT: Nope, not screwed mentally...shapeshifting is an element of it, but healing is the big boy in biomancy. So in the Summer example they could perhaps Evo-thaum some claws-up.
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What about a focus item that works for thaumaturgy but when used in an evocation specific way must be determined what it is. So basically in this instance i would get a +4 thaumaturgical focus for chronomancy but it could only be used for offensive evocations of chronomancy? I dont know if that is very balanced but its more balanced than getting a +4 for all evocations
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@Lavecki
In the way Taran and I have been discussing you would only recieve +4 Offensive Power to TIME Magic. All other Evocation Elements would require their own Foci. But, you can use that +4 Focus on both Time Element Evocations and Chronomancy Evo-thaum. All other forms of magic require their own foci.