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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Vargo Teras on February 20, 2013, 09:22:34 PM
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Spinning off from http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37066.30.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37066.30.html)
Some magics are pretty straightforward to emulate: Sorte is just a set of stunts that lets you Assess and Invoke via magic, and gives you a form of sponsor debt which compels bad luck rather than action. Pyeryem is simply shapechanging powers. Glamour, I think, probably requires the most building, since it's a set of very specific effects rather than the small range of most sorceries or the Thaumaturgy-like breadth of Vesten rune magic.
Swordsman schools could either be built as stunt trees, or simply be an Aspect taken along with choosing appropriate stunts and skills to the school. There's something to be said for mechanical representation, but one of the virtues of using Aspects is that it keeps things simpler.
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Spinning off from http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37066.30.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37066.30.html)
Some magics are pretty straightforward to emulate: Sorte is just a set of stunts that lets you Assess and Invoke via magic, and gives you a form of sponsor debt which compels bad luck rather than action. Pyeryem is simply shapechanging powers. Glamour, I think, probably requires the most building, since it's a set of very specific effects rather than the small range of most sorceries or the Thaumaturgy-like breadth of Vesten rune magic.
Swordsman schools could either be built as stunt trees, or simply be an Aspect taken along with choosing appropriate stunts and skills to the school. There's something to be said for mechanical representation, but one of the virtues of using Aspects is that it keeps things simpler.
Ah-ha! Glad to see someone wanted to make this a thread!
First off, my old group and I agree that the magic can be emulated via powers, but there are some snags. Here's what we have been working with:
"Bargainer" magics (Sorte, Porte, Zerstorung, and El Fuego Adentro) could either be a form of Sponsored Magic (as there is a theoretical Sponsor involved) or simply a combination of powers and Aspects. Personally, I'm a bigger fan of the Sponsored Magic approach, especially if you keep the Sponsored Debt turned low (i.e. Thematically Appropriate Times).
This seems to work in theory for everything except Porte. Here's the breakdown:
Sorte is essentially Luck Magic with some twists (changing Arcana in the original is a change of an Aspect IMHO). Consequences can be physical in nature (Fate Lashes), Sponsored Debt can be seen as Cursed Dice, and seeing strands can be using a form of Divination via EvoThaum.
Zerstorung seems a bit OP, but it is simply an attack via Evocation. We could argue it is simply Channeling, but I think Sponsored still fits, as it could technically be Transformation and Disruption in Thaumaturgy.
El Fuego Adentro can, again, be argued to be Channeling: Fire. I disagree with it as it does cover some aspects of Fire Manipulation, which is more fitting for Thaumaturgy effects.
Porte is the challenge. I can see it as Sponsored Magic since it allows you to "summon" things and gives the flavor of World Walker/using Thaumaturgy to travel.
I do think it requires more book keeping to keep track of Blooded Objects; perhaps a Fate Point expenditure to declare there is a Blooded Object? Using the magic to create Aspects before travel, or using it to create a one-off Aspects (like "Right Behind You" if used in a combat scenario)?
For the other magics, here's what I have:
Laerdom would work best with the Sponsored Magic: Runes, but without a sponsor to rack up debt to. . .technically. You could argue that the Debt is tied to The Old Ways, which I think would work thematically.
Otherwise, you're using Ritual: Crafting for this, which technically works due to the time involved with making each rune, but doesn't work with a fast-carve/temporary use.
Glamour is a bit of a challenge. To make it easy, I'd go with Sponsored Magic (because it technically is; you are counting on the Legends and the magic granted to Avalon from the Graal/the Sidhe), and all effects have to be tied to a heroic figure. Debt can be just simply free compels or the need to act in accordance with the various rules the Sidhe follow/expect.
Alternatively, you could set it up as a collection of powers, one for each legend. This becomes tedious to scale the levels, but it could, theoretically, work.
Pyeryem seems simple, but is a challenge. If you want to be quick about it, make them buy True Shapeshifter and Modular Abilities. I don't think it works for a "starting" Pyeryem, though. Instead, I think I would slightly raise the cost of Beast Change (to -2 allow a second form and a new skill shuffle; or leave it at -1 and require an expenditure of a FP to transform to be more in sync with the original game) and stick with Modular Abilities. As the player gets more "experience" and links to more animals, they can move up to True Shapeshifter and more powers.
Alternatively, you can use Sponsored Magic (since it is Matushka that grants the power), but then you get into the HUGE debate regarding using Thaumaturgy emulating other powers.
That's what I have on the magic; I have other notes for Shamanism and Swordsmanship, but I don't want to have a HUGE post (and I have to get some things done).
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Okay, now that I've taken care of some of the necessary things, here's more of the notes!
Swordsman Schools were a bit of a challenge, as they don't really involve powers. We were thinking of the following approaches:
Approach 1: Aspects, Stunts and Maneuvers
This is just like it says. We make sure there is an Aspect to denote the type of swordsman (rank and school; "Snedig Journeyman", "Grand Master of Aldana and Gallegos", etc), and emulate most of the abilities of the school with maneuvers; disarms, grapples and the like are already covered while flashy things like Double Parry, Tagging, Binding, etc are simply maneuvers, and some of the powers are simply various effects, like weapon breaking. Some of the abilities don't translate over directly; Drexel's stances (unless you do a maneuver each time), Aldana's Focus Dice (unless you spend the actions on maneuvers, again), the extra damage and increased defense (Fate Point expenditures or, again, maneuvers), among others.
Some of them may work out as stunts, but would have to be designed. Other schools may give a reason why a character should have a stunt, such as Two Weapon Fighting for schools like Yael and Boucher.
Approach 2: New Skills
The more I thought of this one, the more I hated it. It just felt too much like a point dump, which was one of the complaints I had in the original 7th Sea system for skills.
Alternatively, we did consider using something like PDQ's skill system and making the school act as it's own skill, warranting the use of the weapon(s), knowledge of the school and similar opposing schools, and to warrant the use of the various maneuvers that would be taught the school.
Approach 3: Powers
I wasn't too keen on this one, but it could be valid. Take the various abilities from each school, turn them into something equivalent to a weak power/strong stunt, and let loose that way. It could work, especially now that we have Fate Core to help us with various stunt/power creation.
Final Note: Swordsman's Guild
One thing we didn't do was make any progress on the concept of the Guild. Being a member gives you some fun things, and could perhaps be worth the 1 Refresh, but it could also be tied to the school Aspect, and a troublesome Aspect could be lacking the Guild Formality. Opinions?
So that's what I have on the approach to swordsman schools. I'll try to hop on again later tonight and post the few notes on Shamanism.
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Okay, next up: Shamanism!
First off, all of the Shamanism is different from each other, sometimes drastically. Many of them should be able to be emulated with powers, other may need to be stunts instead due to the scale.
Keep in mind I'm not touching the stuff from Cathay/Crescent Empire, as I could be here all day (and it would require me to backtrack into the sorceries to fix THAT list. . .no thanks).
Astrology: This boiled down to a much weaker version of Sorte if memory serves correctly. Perhaps a thematic Thaumaturgy to simply add temporary Aspects to a character?
Druid: In 7th Sea mechanics, this was essentially a more limited Sorcery (and cost as much as Half-Blooded). Using the Druid abilities allowed you to augment rolls of others to a minor, positive degree, and the more powerful versions allowed you to place a Gaesa on someone. The former could be a simple maneuver again using a related/new skill, or could even be a power allowing you to use an FP for someone else's benefit.
The latter part is a challenge, as it is closer to a form of Thaumaturgy to "take out" the target and make them take up a quest or now live with new limitations. Not certain what to do here.
Nacht: Basically World Walker with the serial numbers filed off. Use some aspects/environmental hazards to represent the inhospitable environment and allow things like ambushes, and you're good to go.
Oh, and require shadows to be present, that's a big deal. . .
Sympathetic Healer: This one appears to be a variant of Biomancy to allow fast healing, and I'd be up for leaving it as that. But, if we want it to be true to the original, we'll need to add the impact of the healer taking the injury into themselves, which could be a reduction of the cost of the power or just a thematic effect.
The other side of that original ability allows you to use those wounds against your opponents. . .that's the other part where I'm lost, as it basically heals you and brings harm to another.
As previously mentioned, there's a boatload of Shamanism (and other sorceries) from Cathay and the Crescent Empire, but since so few GMs actually utilize them, I won't bother boring you all with it.
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And that's it, I have nothing else.
No insight for ship-to-ship combat, nothing on more dramatic combat, special memberships, Syrneth Artifacts, or anything else. My friends and I didn't get that far since we were as stuck as we were with what I already posted.
So now it's your turn. Who wants to throw their own thoughts out there, or help me with this stuff?
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I'd prefer to avoid using Sponsored Magic: Type for all or most sorceries; it makes them fairly bland, in my opinion. The more mechanically distinct they are, the more they play differently, and the more flavor difference appears.
Sorte is a really fancy way to do assessments and maneuvers. It gives you tremendous freedom there, but really can't attack or block, much less perform complicated thaumaturgical rituals. It's all about plucking the strings. The ability to assess any aspect with Empathy, regardless of situation, is about a -1 Refresh; the ability to perform maneuvers with Empathy, regardless of context, is again a -1; adding in a highly flexible sponsor debt, albeit with vicious compels, is probably another -1, for a total of -3.
El Fuego Adentro is mostly just Channeling: Fire. Very little of what it does is long-term in either invocation or effect; mostly it just has many fancy ways to burn people and things. What needs to be expanded beyond that is in the hands of masters, and additional stunts can be made for them.
Zerstorung is dead, and ought to stay that way, but if it isn't, it's pretty much just a Breath Weapon with changed flavor.
Porte is, yes, unique, but that doesn't mean we can't approximate a price. The ability to retrieve a limited number of items from any location is a useful ability, but I wouldn't price it beyond -2 at the most, probably only -1; the ability to walk to a set number of locations where said items are found is rather more useful, with World Walker I think setting the bar appropriately at -3.
Laerdom seems like it should be really only usable as thaumaturgy, with any instant effects being enchanted items. I think simply saying "All Thaumaturgy is Laerdom, and Laerdom is only Thaumaturgy" is sufficient without getting into any wackiness with sponsoring.
I agree with the -2 version of Beast Change for a limited number of shapes (I'd make it three or four), and Modular Abilities with the Human Form limiter becomes slightly more affordable.
Glamour is the big one; I think Sponsored Magic really has to be the way to go, with sponsor debt compels taking the form of an agenda linked to whatever hero was being emulated when it was racked up.
Very much of the opinion that the aspect/stunt method works best for swordsman's schools; new stunts can and should be created as needed for particular schools, but most should be straightforward. There's no need to pay for Swordsman's Guild membership; if it profits you financially it's Resources, if it gives you connections it's Contacting, and in any event it's an Aspect that can be invoked as needed.
I really know nothing about shamanism; when I played, we didn't have those books.
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I'd prefer to avoid using Sponsored Magic: Type for all or most sorceries; it makes them fairly bland, in my opinion. The more mechanically distinct they are, the more they play differently, and the more flavor difference appears.
True, but then again, most of the magic in the original 7th Sea was the same mechanic with different effects and flavours. Sponsored Magic, if done right, might be the same mechanically but can be drastically different in flavour. For comparison's sake, compare Hellfire to Seelie magic; very similar in many ways, but drastically different in terms of flavour, thought, and even use.
But, to each their own. I just threw my thoughts out there for feedback.
Now, for what you have:
Sorte is a really fancy way to do assessments and maneuvers. It gives you tremendous freedom there, but really can't attack or block, much less perform complicated thaumaturgical rituals. It's all about plucking the strings. The ability to assess any aspect with Empathy, regardless of situation, is about a -1 Refresh; the ability to perform maneuvers with Empathy, regardless of context, is again a -1; adding in a highly flexible sponsor debt, albeit with vicious compels, is probably another -1, for a total of -3.
I won't argue that Sorte is a fancy way to do assessments and maneuvers, but at the upper ranks, it provides some rather powerful effects that bounce between divination and some transformation.
I mean, you can reweave someone's tapestry and change their arcana with a big enough ritual, and the Black Strand can even be a way of "taking out" an opponent.
Your approach also removes one of the interesting sides of Sorte: the fear of a Fate Lash.
Also, why was Empathy the skill of choice here? I would even assume "Perception" was a better choice to "see" the strand in this case, followed by either Discipline or Conviction to alter said strand.
And why the Sponsor Debt with this approach?
El Fuego Adentro is mostly just Channeling: Fire. Very little of what it does is long-term in either invocation or effect; mostly it just has many fancy ways to burn people and things. What needs to be expanded beyond that is in the hands of masters, and additional stunts can be made for them.
This is true; the Evocation rules already cover things like taking "damage" to ensure the spell goes off, which is why it works as-is.
The stunts could work, but also refinement and possibly just general manuevers could work.
I only approached the "Sponsored Magic" approach due to the nature of the magic/where it came from.
Zerstorung is dead, and ought to stay that way, but if it isn't, it's pretty much just a Breath Weapon with changed flavor.
Technically it is dead, but like any sick GM knows, anything "dead" just becomes "Unexpected." My best "villain" was a sometime ally of the party and turned out to be a Zertorung mage, and the party had to decide to leave her as an ally or make her an enemy. Hilarity ensued.
Anyway, unless I'm forgetting, I believe Zertorung required physical contact for the "spell" to work, and legends had it that a strong mage could dissolve an entire person in one go. With that in mind, I figured EvoThaum was the way to go, with the Sponsored Debt being anything from weakening the barrier to being cruel.
Porte is, yes, unique, but that doesn't mean we can't approximate a price. The ability to retrieve a limited number of items from any location is a useful ability, but I wouldn't price it beyond -2 at the most, probably only -1; the ability to walk to a set number of locations where said items are found is rather more useful, with World Walker I think setting the bar appropriately at -3.
I think we're onto something here. I agree that the power to pull things is useful, but isn't too game breaking, and with the "limitation" of the item needing to be blooded, the cost balances out.
The only concern is balancing the number of items, which can be settled via book keeping (blech) or possibly common sense with manuevers.
If I were to use Sponsored Magic as the shell again, perhaps the "enchanted items" could simply be blooded items? Or perhaps a similar mechanic could be used for this approach?
Laerdom seems like it should be really only usable as thaumaturgy, with any instant effects being enchanted items. I think simply saying "All Thaumaturgy is Laerdom, and Laerdom is only Thaumaturgy" is sufficient without getting into any wackiness with sponsoring.
I was looking at the Sponsored Magic approach for Laerdom since someone on the board has attempted to flesh out Gard's rune magic, which I think was fitting considering at the Master Rank, you become a Rune, embodying everything about it.
If that's not a Sponsor Debt, I don't know what is. The same goes with following the Old Ways, and why the Vendel can only be "Half-Blooded."
The only objection I have for Laerdom being pure Thaumaturgy is the time. It is possible to etch a temporary rune in battle (and take physical consequences for failing it), so I can't agree with Thaumaturgy as written.
Besides, there are some other entities that could benefit from Thaumaturgy-like effects as they appear. Take a look into the Ussura book and you might understand why I say that.
I agree with the -2 version of Beast Change for a limited number of shapes (I'd make it three or four), and Modular Abilities with the Human Form limiter becomes slightly more affordable.
I think getting three might be pushing it, four would be pretty over the top for such a low cost, especially if they are getting the skill shuffle for each individual form.
Perhaps setting it at 2 to begin, with a "refinement" to be acquired at the speed of plot for new forms?
Also, the Modular Abilities with Human Form works in my book; it just means the Master Rank characters have learned to not change their form.
Glamour is the big one; I think Sponsored Magic really has to be the way to go, with sponsor debt compels taking the form of an agenda linked to whatever hero was being emulated when it was racked up.
I have to disagree with the sponsor debt. Remember that some of the entities being emulated are still alive, so it detracts from that idea.
I think having the debt to be closer to the goals of the Sidhe and the overall personality of those in Avalon would be the best way to go with it.
Very much of the opinion that the aspect/stunt method works best for swordsman's schools; new stunts can and should be created as needed for particular schools, but most should be straightforward. There's no need to pay for Swordsman's Guild membership; if it profits you financially it's Resources, if it gives you connections it's Contacting, and in any event it's an Aspect that can be invoked as needed.
Glad to see we're on the same page for this part. I haven't found an alternative method that I like yet, so this might be best.
As for the Guild Membership, I know some "schools" were given a benefit to being without a membership, and it was possible to be trained in a school that gives Guild Membership but you don't get those benefits; perhaps enforce that it is an Aspect, then?
My only objection to that is a simple thing has to become an Aspect.
I really know nothing about shamanism; when I played, we didn't have those books.
Most of the Shamanism appeared within the country books. Vendel/Vesten had Astrology, the Crescent Empire book was LOADED with them, Avalon had Druids, etc.
Very useful, but not too easy to emulate.
As you can tell, I spent a LOT of time reading these books. I've run and played in countless sessions in college, and I will always have a soft spot for the game.
Just not too keen on it's progression mechanic, and other parts get too crunchy for my taste, thus why I am really happy you brought up this thread!
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I won't argue that Sorte is a fancy way to do assessments and maneuvers, but at the upper ranks, it provides some rather powerful effects that bounce between divination and some transformation.
I mean, you can reweave someone's tapestry and change their arcana with a big enough ritual, and the Black Strand can even be a way of "taking out" an opponent.
Your approach also removes one of the interesting sides of Sorte: the fear of a Fate Lash.
Also, why was Empathy the skill of choice here? I would even assume "Perception" was a better choice to "see" the strand in this case, followed by either Discipline or Conviction to alter said strand.
And why the Sponsor Debt with this approach?
Divination and Transformation are both ways to achieve high numbers of shifts on a particular maneuver. For a Sorte Strega, complicated ritual preparations aren't a viable means to do that, and that's what the Ritual half of Sponsored Magic provides. For a Sorte Strega to take someone out not through minor blessings and curses to arrange their death (mechanically represented by using maneuvers to affect the outcome of a conflict which results in the target being taken out) but by simply cursing them with inescapable doom (that is, a single attack with enough stress to overcome their entire set of stress and consequences) is both rare and extraordinarily costly to her; massive expenditure of Fate points and taking of sponsor debt seems appropriate, but the way magical ritual works doesn't.
I chose Empathy as the primary ability because a Sorte Strega should have a very high basic ability to read emotional states and ties even without directly using her magic; it avoids the problem where someone has a mystical power with narrow effects, but lacks the obvious knock-on effects. A Sorte Strega's manipulations should be able to pass for mundane Empathy and sometimes Deceit, and that works better if she has those abilities for other uses.
Sponsor Debt can take two forms. First, is that whenever Sorte is used to bless or curse, it has a countervailing effect on the Strega; second is aforementioned fate lashes (that is, invoke the debt not to compel action, but to cause stress).
Anyway, unless I'm forgetting, I believe Zertorung required physical contact for the "spell" to work, and legends had it that a strong mage could dissolve an entire person in one go. With that in mind, I figured EvoThaum was the way to go, with the Sponsored Debt being anything from weakening the barrier to being cruel.
Zerstorung only inflicts damage. Sponsored Magic is an incredibly versatile tool, with even the most narrow published form giving the ability to summon demons, inflict curses from the sublime to the overt, and otherwise accomplish all manner of feats. I can't think of anything that Zerstorung should be able to do in a ritual manner, and while with creativity it could be used for a limited range of combat maneuvers (e.g., creating an obstacle by collapsing the keystone of a door), I think that having it represented by even Channeling lends it more breadth of power than it really ought to have.
I was looking at the Sponsored Magic approach for Laerdom since someone on the board has attempted to flesh out Gard's rune magic, which I think was fitting considering at the Master Rank, you become a Rune, embodying everything about it.
If that's not a Sponsor Debt, I don't know what is. The same goes with following the Old Ways, and why the Vendel can only be "Half-Blooded."
The only objection I have for Laerdom being pure Thaumaturgy is the time. It is possible to etch a temporary rune in battle (and take physical consequences for failing it), so I can't agree with Thaumaturgy as written.
Using open "potion" slots for runes scribed in combat is a mechanically viable way of accomplishing this, without opening up the can of worms that full access to Channeling gives.
I think getting three might be pushing it, four would be pretty over the top for such a low cost, especially if they are getting the skill shuffle for each individual form.
Perhaps setting it at 2 to begin, with a "refinement" to be acquired at the speed of plot for new forms?
Also, the Modular Abilities with Human Form works in my book; it just means the Master Rank characters have learned to not change their form.
It's important to compare costs with other powers. -1 gives you a single alternate stack, with many limitations; -4 gives you an infinite number of rearrangements, with very few limitations. I can see three forms being enough for a -2, and then putting -3 at pretty much any animal form (remember, the -4 True Shapeshifting doesn't just grant all possible Beast Changes, but also the ability to mimic humans and supernatural creatures, which PC Pyeryem never does). And agreed that a Pyeryem master can simply buy off the Human Form limitation.
I have to disagree with the sponsor debt. Remember that some of the entities being emulated are still alive, so it detracts from that idea.
I think having the debt to be closer to the goals of the Sidhe and the overall personality of those in Avalon would be the best way to go with it.
That could also work; I like the idea of guiding it somewhat more so that people pay more attention to which legends they're using.
As for the Guild Membership, I know some "schools" were given a benefit to being without a membership, and it was possible to be trained in a school that gives Guild Membership but you don't get those benefits; perhaps enforce that it is an Aspect, then?
My only objection to that is a simple thing has to become an Aspect.
Guild Membership shouldn't necessarily be an Aspect of itself, but training in a Swordsman's School certainly should be represented in an Aspect. Whether it's simply that you were Trained in Aldana, or that you have Rivals from the Valroux School, or that you must get Revenge for a Murdered Master who taught you of Donovan, or that you have Villanova Blood, Villanova Steel, a true Swordsman will mention that somewhere in their Aspect list.
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Glad to see this conversation is continuing. Now to move on for a few more rounds!
Divination and Transformation are both ways to achieve high numbers of shifts on a particular maneuver. For a Sorte Strega, complicated ritual preparations aren't a viable means to do that, and that's what the Ritual half of Sponsored Magic provides. For a Sorte Strega to take someone out not through minor blessings and curses to arrange their death (mechanically represented by using maneuvers to affect the outcome of a conflict which results in the target being taken out) but by simply cursing them with inescapable doom (that is, a single attack with enough stress to overcome their entire set of stress and consequences) is both rare and extraordinarily costly to her; massive expenditure of Fate points and taking of sponsor debt seems appropriate, but the way magical ritual works doesn't.
I chose Empathy as the primary ability because a Sorte Strega should have a very high basic ability to read emotional states and ties even without directly using her magic; it avoids the problem where someone has a mystical power with narrow effects, but lacks the obvious knock-on effects. A Sorte Strega's manipulations should be able to pass for mundane Empathy and sometimes Deceit, and that works better if she has those abilities for other uses.
Sponsor Debt can take two forms. First, is that whenever Sorte is used to bless or curse, it has a countervailing effect on the Strega; second is aforementioned fate lashes (that is, invoke the debt not to compel action, but to cause stress).
So, you are taking the trappings of Sponsored Magic (Sponsor Debt), but the powers are essentially stunts instead?
And I can see parts of the approach you are taking here, as the Strega are more on the social sort, sidelined in combat due to being a commodity, but I still think that stunts can't really grasp what all the Strega could do. Perhaps designing new powers that emulate the aspects of Sponsored Magic and the limited purview of the type of spells could be a way to go?
Zerstorung only inflicts damage. Sponsored Magic is an incredibly versatile tool, with even the most narrow published form giving the ability to summon demons, inflict curses from the sublime to the overt, and otherwise accomplish all manner of feats. I can't think of anything that Zerstorung should be able to do in a ritual manner, and while with creativity it could be used for a limited range of combat maneuvers (e.g., creating an obstacle by collapsing the keystone of a door), I think that having it represented by even Channeling lends it more breadth of power than it really ought to have.
See, I always saw Zerstorung as "Disintegration Magic." I starts off weak (inanimate objects that aren't very solid), and moves up from there. With the right training, I can see it being slung around like Evocation/Channeling with regards to power and versatility. Want to mess with someone's footing? Dissolve the floor beneath them just a bit. Need to destroy the wall to get out? There's another use.
Breath Weapon just seems too narrow focused as it is simply a Weapon:2 and nothing else. Yes, it can add some of these other trappings, but I feel it takes something away. So why do you see Channeling as offering it more breadth of power?
Using open "potion" slots for runes scribed in combat is a mechanically viable way of accomplishing this, without opening up the can of worms that full access to Channeling gives.
Perhaps something to test out and see how it goes? I just know I liked the way the Sponsored Magic: Runes looked, and it seemed to fit with the approach of the way Laerdom appeared in the books.
If you haven't seen it before, here's the link to the writeup: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25946.msg1104956.html#msg1104956 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25946.msg1104956.html#msg1104956)
It's important to compare costs with other powers. -1 gives you a single alternate stack, with many limitations; -4 gives you an infinite number of rearrangements, with very few limitations. I can see three forms being enough for a -2, and then putting -3 at pretty much any animal form (remember, the -4 True Shapeshifting doesn't just grant all possible Beast Changes, but also the ability to mimic humans and supernatural creatures, which PC Pyeryem never does). And agreed that a Pyeryem master can simply buy off the Human Form limitation.
I think this works out, honestly.
As a note, Pyeryem Mages CAN turn into some specific "supernatural" creatures...they just need to meet them and earn their form. The rules exist to become a Drachen or Firebird, among many others. Still, I can see that being part of the mix here.
That could also work; I like the idea of guiding it somewhat more so that people pay more attention to which legends they're using.
I can understand that. Perhaps meet in the middle; the compel has to be related to the will of the Sidhe, but can be related to the Legend utilized? For example, if someone used Robin Goodfellow to catch a mess of arrows and accrued debt while doing so, the Sidhe would require something that benefits them (goals, amusement, or the good of Avalon) but require the skills used by Goodfellow (archery, for example)?
Guild Membership shouldn't necessarily be an Aspect of itself, but training in a Swordsman's School certainly should be represented in an Aspect. Whether it's simply that you were Trained in Aldana, or that you have Rivals from the Valroux School, or that you must get Revenge for a Murdered Master who taught you of Donovan, or that you have Villanova Blood, Villanova Steel, a true Swordsman will mention that somewhere in their Aspect list.
I won't argue that it should be tied to an aspect; I just know that in some games, whether or not you were a member of the Guild was a HUGE thing, especially if the school you were trained in just so happens to be Guild Sanctioned and you aren't...
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Glad to see this conversation is continuing. Now to move on for a few more rounds!
So, you are taking the trappings of Sponsored Magic (Sponsor Debt), but the powers are essentially stunts instead?
More or less. I think sponsor debt is one of the more interesting and useful parts of sponsored magic, and I'd like to see it expanded to other areas (perhaps I should make a new thread for that).
And I can see parts of the approach you are taking here, as the Strega are more on the social sort, sidelined in combat due to being a commodity, but I still think that stunts can't really grasp what all the Strega could do. Perhaps designing new powers that emulate the aspects of Sponsored Magic and the limited purview of the type of spells could be a way to go?
Stunts, powers; it's spending refresh to expand abilities. Sorte's all about the Fate, which makes invokes and compels on aspects seem to make more sense to me than the attacks and blocks that magical Channeling-type effects allow, but the best way to approach those invokes and compels may vary based on how you see the distinction between mortal stunts and supernatural-only powers.
See, I always saw Zerstorung as "Disintegration Magic." I starts off weak (inanimate objects that aren't very solid), and moves up from there. With the right training, I can see it being slung around like Evocation/Channeling with regards to power and versatility. Want to mess with someone's footing? Dissolve the floor beneath them just a bit. Need to destroy the wall to get out? There's another use.
Breath Weapon just seems too narrow focused as it is simply a Weapon:2 and nothing else. Yes, it can add some of these other trappings, but I feel it takes something away. So why do you see Channeling as offering it more breadth of power?
I'd suggest using the Natural Attack custom power to build a slightly more versatile Zerstorung, but fundamentally, Zerstorung should never be used to do anything other than destroy. Channeling offers blocks, maneuvers, countermagics; these are all things which are outside the scope of Zerstorung. It can't disintegrate a bullet mid-flight; it can't dissolve the magic of a Fuegista; and it certainly can't rend metaphysical things like someone's patience or the unity of a household. If I were playing a character with Disintegration Magic, those are all things I would expect to be able to do, but the fluff seems pretty clear that the only defense Zerstorung offers is a good offense, and the mechanics of it were, as I recall, purely the power to inflict dice of damage on a target.
Perhaps something to test out and see how it goes? I just know I liked the way the Sponsored Magic: Runes looked, and it seemed to fit with the approach of the way Laerdom appeared in the books.
If you haven't seen it before, here's the link to the writeup: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25946.msg1104956.html#msg1104956 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25946.msg1104956.html#msg1104956)
I think this works out, honestly.
It could work; I just like the notion of making Laerdom practitioners plan things out, in exchange for having the most versatile and potentially powerful standing effects.
As a note, Pyeryem Mages CAN turn into some specific "supernatural" creatures...they just need to meet them and earn their form. The rules exist to become a Drachen or Firebird, among many others. Still, I can see that being part of the mix here.
From the subset of books to which I had access, it seemed like those weren't really intended for PC use. But, if it should arise in your game that someone becomes the head of one of the great families or otherwise gains the ability to turn into a Firebird, there's plenty of room to expand their powerset (given enough Refresh to spend).
I can understand that. Perhaps meet in the middle; the compel has to be related to the will of the Sidhe, but can be related to the Legend utilized? For example, if someone used Robin Goodfellow to catch a mess of arrows and accrued debt while doing so, the Sidhe would require something that benefits them (goals, amusement, or the good of Avalon) but require the skills used by Goodfellow (archery, for example)?
It's not so much the skill as the methodology that I'd want to see used. (Going off of memory here, so may be wildly inaccurate:) Yes, Goodfellow's an archer, but he's also a roguish trickster; shooting arrows is what he's good at, but playing clever pranks that demonstrate his foes' foolishness is how he does it. Given the choice between assassinating the Castilian governor with a well-placed arrow, or instead humiliating him with bloodless arson attacks, unfortunately-timed archery tricks, and otherwise making him look so ineffectual that even his own personal troops lose respect for him, the latter is what should be compelled.
I won't argue that it should be tied to an aspect; I just know that in some games, whether or not you were a member of the Guild was a HUGE thing, especially if the school you were trained in just so happens to be Guild Sanctioned and you aren't...
That seems like ripe compel-fodder to me; depending on how often it comes up, Unlicensed Swordsman could be a Trouble. I just really hesitate to charge Refresh for something that's part of a basic package; I'd certainly permit a Swordsman to take a stunt that gives them bonuses to reputation-type rolls, but wouldn't want to require it for anyone trained in a guild school. Most swordsmen will be wanting to spend all their Refresh on sword-related things.
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So before I go into the section by section, I would believe that we have reached agreements on Pyryem, Porte, and El Fuego Adentro at the very least, correct?
Pyeryem: Beast Change at -2 for up to three forms, Modular Abilities for powers with the Human Form refund.
El Fuego Adentro: Channeling: Fire with some refinement/stunts for the higher ranks and call it good.
Porte: -3 for the ability, which grants the ability to pull a set number of items out of nowhere (the "Bring" knack), create a pocket to store things (the "Pocket" knack), a viable reason to "block" some attacks (the "Catch" knack), the ability to detect some objects (the "Attunement" knack) and emulate a limited version of Worldwalker (the "walk" knack, with the ability to make some maneuvers in the process). Or do you think it should be more expensive when you take all of the knacks into consideration?
Have I missed anything?
More or less. I think sponsor debt is one of the more interesting and useful parts of sponsored magic, and I'd like to see it expanded to other areas (perhaps I should make a new thread for that).
I think that'd be a fun thread to see.
Stunts, powers; it's spending refresh to expand abilities. Sorte's all about the Fate, which makes invokes and compels on aspects seem to make more sense to me than the attacks and blocks that magical Channeling-type effects allow, but the best way to approach those invokes and compels may vary based on how you see the distinction between mortal stunts and supernatural-only powers.
Honestly, I can see a good Sorte "block" as twisting the strands to keep someone from coming at them. Don't want to fight this person? Fray the sword strand; they have to overcome the Block to get to you. Fray a cups strand, and they won't be able to speak against you in social combat without overcoming it.
I guess the real trick is converting the original source into this game and vice-versa.
As for the stunts/powers, you pretty much are spot on. The Fate Core book pretty much brought up that line of thought, but then again, they don't have the "Pure Mortal" refresh there. . .
I'd suggest using the Natural Attack custom power to build a slightly more versatile Zerstorung, but fundamentally, Zerstorung should never be used to do anything other than destroy. Channeling offers blocks, maneuvers, countermagics; these are all things which are outside the scope of Zerstorung. It can't disintegrate a bullet mid-flight; it can't dissolve the magic of a Fuegista; and it certainly can't rend metaphysical things like someone's patience or the unity of a household. If I were playing a character with Disintegration Magic, those are all things I would expect to be able to do, but the fluff seems pretty clear that the only defense Zerstorung offers is a good offense, and the mechanics of it were, as I recall, purely the power to inflict dice of damage on a target.
Mechanically, you are not incorrect when you say that it inflicts dice of damage on a target (whether object or person). Since we've been having this conversation here, I decided to break out my books instead of relying on memory and shorthand notes.
Zerstorung, mechanically, would destroy an object, and would eventually move to "damage" living things. Thematically, it's Entropy magic, with the ability to disintegrate after the object in question has reached it's final stage (metal that has been rusted could disintegrate, for example).
To quote the source material (The Secret Societies of Theah, Book 2: The Rilasciare, pages 79-80): Zerstorung essentially accelerates the raves of time, causing materails to corrode and collapse in the space of a few seconds. The affected object literally rots before the sorcerer's eyes, becoming dry, wrinkled, and desiccated as if it had lain untouched for centuries. This is not aging (it won't turn a baby into a man), but rather an increase in the natural entropy that causes wear and decay. (. . .) At the height of their power, the von Drachens could turn a twelve-year-old boy into a withered mummy simply by brushing his cheek.
This, to me, sounds more like Entropy magic instead of simply a breath weapon, especially considering the knacks it has. With said knacks it CAN, in theory, dissolve that bullet or attack from a distance. The knacks cause the mage to go from physical contact to indirect touch into distance, speed up the application, and even the option to corrode individual parts of the object in question.
So...yeah. While Breath Weapon/Natural Weapon shows the damage side and how said damage can apply to creating aspects, it doesn't really show that it CAN be more advanced when you think about it. I can see it being used to defend by dissolving ranged weapons (melee will take some thought), create a block via a dissolving field (or even just bad footing), and as previously mentioned, make attacks or create (or destroy) scene aspects.
That being said, I do agree that they shouldn't have the counter-magic side of things, but since you wouldn't be using most normal magic rules in 7th Sea, this becomes a moot point, as I think the only counter-magic is the Thomas knack from Glamour.
Just my two cents, anyway.
It could work; I just like the notion of making Laerdom practitioners plan things out, in exchange for having the most versatile and potentially powerful standing effects.
I think this one might be a personal preference. I just recall having a player carve a Villskap rune and striking down an entire Brute Squad with a lightning bolt to escape from a jail cell. Good times. . .
Honestly, I wouldn't take that one away since at the beginning, runes are temporary (you have to hit Adept to have a permanent rune on something, then Master to become said rune), but that's my preference/approach to things.
From the subset of books to which I had access, it seemed like those weren't really intended for PC use. But, if it should arise in your game that someone becomes the head of one of the great families or otherwise gains the ability to turn into a Firebird, there's plenty of room to expand their powerset (given enough Refresh to spend).
Sounds good to me. I won't argue that fact, as you have to do something pretty big to get those. At the games in which I was a player, we had one person become a Firebird (he did a lot of epic stuff to hit that point for that attention), and another was able to transform into a Drachen (Half-Blooded Pyryem; Half-Eisen with little memory of the past). So...yeah, epic requirements, so I can see that being a "late game" situation.
It's not so much the skill as the methodology that I'd want to see used. (Going off of memory here, so may be wildly inaccurate:) Yes, Goodfellow's an archer, but he's also a roguish trickster; shooting arrows is what he's good at, but playing clever pranks that demonstrate his foes' foolishness is how he does it. Given the choice between assassinating the Castilian governor with a well-placed arrow, or instead humiliating him with bloodless arson attacks, unfortunately-timed archery tricks, and otherwise making him look so ineffectual that even his own personal troops lose respect for him, the latter is what should be compelled.
This...actually makes perfect sense. So you aren't acting in accordance to the AGENDA of the Legend, but rather acting in accordance to the PERSONALITY of that Legend. Added bonus (or alternative if the situation warrants) if the situation and deeds are tied to Avalon/The Sidhe?
That seems like ripe compel-fodder to me; depending on how often it comes up, Unlicensed Swordsman could be a Trouble. I just really hesitate to charge Refresh for something that's part of a basic package; I'd certainly permit a Swordsman to take a stunt that gives them bonuses to reputation-type rolls, but wouldn't want to require it for anyone trained in a guild school. Most swordsmen will be wanting to spend all their Refresh on sword-related things.
Oh, it is compel-fodder. Perhaps if someone is unlicensed, they would have to tie it to the Swordsman School Aspect ("Illegal Donovan Duelist" or "Secretly Trained Valroux," for example)?
I agree with the reputation as a stunt, and perhaps even using a stunt to allow the Weapons skill to replace Contacts/Resources at the cost of a FP (to denote people you know or "resources" at hand due to your standing in the Guild)?
On a further swordsman school note, which swordsman knacks and special abilities do you think would warrant special stunts? I figured a good number of the schools would use anything related to two weapons, but the other stunts in DFRPG aren't really going to cover things like Double Parry, the Bind-Disarm, etc.
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So before I go into the section by section, I would believe that we have reached agreements on Pyryem, Porte, and El Fuego Adentro at the very least, correct?
Looks like we're pretty much on the same page for Pyeryem and Fuego.
Porte: -3 for the ability, which grants the ability to pull a set number of items out of nowhere (the "Bring" knack), create a pocket to store things (the "Pocket" knack), a viable reason to "block" some attacks (the "Catch" knack), the ability to detect some objects (the "Attunement" knack) and emulate a limited version of Worldwalker (the "walk" knack, with the ability to make some maneuvers in the process). Or do you think it should be more expensive when you take all of the knacks into consideration?
I'd part it out, actually, so that someone could take the knacks they wanted and leave the others for later. Bring is the baseline, and I'd call it -1. I don't recall the exact mechanics on Pocket or Attunement, but expanding the ability to store objects (but not people) probably only reaches a -1, and the ability to know where your objects of interest is should really be folded into the base power. Catch is probably no more powerful than the Footwork stunt, though mechanical representation is an interesting question, so that's again a -1. And the actual Walking, I'd set at a base -2 for the ability to move yourself, with another -1 when you can carry people with you. It's much faster and more secure than Nevernever travel, but it also has far fewer possible destinations.
Honestly, I can see a good Sorte "block" as twisting the strands to keep someone from coming at them. Don't want to fight this person? Fray the sword strand; they have to overcome the Block to get to you. Fray a cups strand, and they won't be able to speak against you in social combat without overcoming it.
I see Sorte as being more subtle than most Blocks, working with existing circumstances and conditions to make action easier or more difficult, rather than creating an entirely new barrier or threat. That's why my inclination is to treat it as maneuvers, creating and tagging aspects to manipulate the situation.
So...yeah. While Breath Weapon/Natural Weapon shows the damage side and how said damage can apply to creating aspects, it doesn't really show that it CAN be more advanced when you think about it. I can see it being used to defend by dissolving ranged weapons (melee will take some thought), create a block via a dissolving field (or even just bad footing), and as previously mentioned, make attacks or create (or destroy) scene aspects.
That being said, I do agree that they shouldn't have the counter-magic side of things, but since you wouldn't be using most normal magic rules in 7th Sea, this becomes a moot point, as I think the only counter-magic is the Thomas knack from Glamour.
Just my two cents, anyway.
I'm not going to call it badwrongfun to treat Zerstorung as having the flexibility of Channeling; it's just not how I'd do it. I'd recommend not going to full Sponsored Magic, though, since A) Zerstorung rituals aren't a thing I recall existing by book and B) if they did, they'd mostly be death curses, which are bad mojo from a gamist standpoint. Evil wizards who can dissolve you are scary enough if they have to be in the room with you.
I think this one might be a personal preference. I just recall having a player carve a Villskap rune and striking down an entire Brute Squad with a lightning bolt to escape from a jail cell. Good times. . .
Honestly, I wouldn't take that one away since at the beginning, runes are temporary (you have to hit Adept to have a permanent rune on something, then Master to become said rune), but that's my preference/approach to things.
Again, tastes differ; if your table enjoys runic evocation, rather than a limited number of uses a la open potion slots, that doesn't hurt my game any.
This...actually makes perfect sense. So you aren't acting in accordance to the AGENDA of the Legend, but rather acting in accordance to the PERSONALITY of that Legend. Added bonus (or alternative if the situation warrants) if the situation and deeds are tied to Avalon/The Sidhe?
Probably a compel (or self-compel for extra fate points) on the Glamour mage's high concept; the particular legend might not be in favor of a united Avalon or the Sidhe's current agenda, but that doesn't mean that the mage's faerie blood doesn't have its own strings to pull.
Oh, it is compel-fodder. Perhaps if someone is unlicensed, they would have to tie it to the Swordsman School Aspect ("Illegal Donovan Duelist" or "Secretly Trained Valroux," for example)?
I agree with the reputation as a stunt, and perhaps even using a stunt to allow the Weapons skill to replace Contacts/Resources at the cost of a FP (to denote people you know or "resources" at hand due to your standing in the Guild)?
For a stunt, I'd say "Use Weapons instead of Contacts whenever dealing with members of the Swordsman's Guild". No Fate point charge, but limited usage; it'll get you mercenaries, and information at a very narrow level, which is about one trapping's worth.
On a further swordsman school note, which swordsman knacks and special abilities do you think would warrant special stunts? I figured a good number of the schools would use anything related to two weapons, but the other stunts in DFRPG aren't really going to cover things like Double Parry, the Bind-Disarm, etc.
The one that springs to mind immediately is Corps-a-Corps. Many of the others don't need stunts but could benefit from them; e.g. anyone can use Weapons to create an aspect of Missing his Hat, but with the Tagging stunt, those aspects are worth +3 when first invoked if it's for a social attack rather than a physical one. But Corps-a-Corps seems like it could use its own rules; maybe using Weapons to initiate a Grapple?
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Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, Vargo! It's been a busy couple of days, but I'm back~ish!
Looks like we're pretty much on the same page for Pyeryem and Fuego.
Glad to hear! I'll throw that into my docs on that collection for my players/fellow GMs to look over.
.I'd part it out, actually, so that someone could take the knacks they wanted and leave the others for later. Bring is the baseline, and I'd call it -1. I don't recall the exact mechanics on Pocket or Attunement, but expanding the ability to store objects (but not people) probably only reaches a -1, and the ability to know where your objects of interest is should really be folded into the base power. Catch is probably no more powerful than the Footwork stunt, though mechanical representation is an interesting question, so that's again a -1. And the actual Walking, I'd set at a base -2 for the ability to move yourself, with another -1 when you can carry people with you. It's much faster and more secure than Nevernever travel, but it also has far fewer possible destinations.
Kind of like how Incite Emotion and Domination are "add-ons" to the power? Make the Porte power start off with at least -2 (let the player pick whatever powers they choose, like Attune, Catch, etc, as they work like Stunts)?
And travel here does it does have its dangers; perhaps a compel from time to time to warrant this?
I see Sorte as being more subtle than most Blocks, working with existing circumstances and conditions to make action easier or more difficult, rather than creating an entirely new barrier or threat. That's why my inclination is to treat it as maneuvers, creating and tagging aspects to manipulate the situation.
I can see it as possible, but I still feel as though it should have more flexibility than acting as the equivalent of a stunt to use a new skill (Empathy, in your case) to apply aspects to the situation. As only a Aspect Machine, it doesn't feel as though it carries the same degree of fear that we see in the source material, as Fate Witches were viewed as a powerful tool and commodity, and few wished to meet their gaze due to the power they possessed. Throwing an aspect on the table for a single compel (more if you have FP) just doesn't seem to meet that in my opinion.
Then again, that's just my opinion.
I'm not going to call it badwrongfun to treat Zerstorung as having the flexibility of Channeling; it's just not how I'd do it. I'd recommend not going to full Sponsored Magic, though, since A) Zerstorung rituals aren't a thing I recall existing by book and B) if they did, they'd mostly be death curses, which are bad mojo from a gamist standpoint. Evil wizards who can dissolve you are scary enough if they have to be in the room with you.
I agree that it's bad mojo for the instant-death curses, as we only really see them as an NPC tool once in a blue moon and they are scary enough to be the plot device of an entire story arc.
That being said, perhaps a twist on Sponsored Magic, where it is only "sponsored" in name only (like the other Bargainer Magics) and only acts according to Channeling, as that requires sight in order to work anyway?
On that note, do you think everyone with a Bargainer Magic should have "Marked By Power" as a requirement, as each one is marked in some way?
Again, tastes differ; if your table enjoys runic evocation, rather than a limited number of uses a la open potion slots, that doesn't hurt my game any.
Shall we jot down both versions and see which one jives with the taste of the players at the table? I can see both working depending on how people view Laerdom in their games and how much they've read on the topic, so. . .
Probably a compel (or self-compel for extra fate points) on the Glamour mage's high concept; the particular legend might not be in favor of a united Avalon or the Sidhe's current agenda, but that doesn't mean that the mage's faerie blood doesn't have its own strings to pull.
Well, not every mage has Sidhe Blood if I remember correctly, but I know the Glamour itself was granted by Elaine having the Graal and all that jazz, which brought magic back to the land in the first place.
So why don't we stick with "Compelling the character's High Concept to act in accordance of the actions of the Invoked Legend or in benefit of Avalon"? Does that sound comprehensive enough?
For a stunt, I'd say "Use Weapons instead of Contacts whenever dealing with members of the Swordsman's Guild". No Fate point charge, but limited usage; it'll get you mercenaries, and information at a very narrow level, which is about one trapping's worth.
Sounds simply enough, then.
The one that springs to mind immediately is Corps-a-Corps. Many of the others don't need stunts but could benefit from them; e.g. anyone can use Weapons to create an aspect of Missing his Hat, but with the Tagging stunt, those aspects are worth +3 when first invoked if it's for a social attack rather than a physical one. But Corps-a-Corps seems like it could use its own rules; maybe using Weapons to initiate a Grapple?
I think Corps-a-Corps is an odd beastie as it deals damage AND knocks the opponent down. That said, I think we can use a stunt and tweak the "grapple" rules to simulate getting knocked over during the attack; perhaps allowing Weapons to create the necessary taggable Aspect and allow for a one-turn "grapple" to represent getting knocked over?
The others will take some work; I'll look over the rulebooks and see what I can offer later today/this week if time permits.
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Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, Vargo! It's been a busy couple of days, but I'm back~ish!
No worries.
Kind of like how Incite Emotion and Domination are "add-ons" to the power? Make the Porte power start off with at least -2 (let the player pick whatever powers they choose, like Attune, Catch, etc, as they work like Stunts)?
That's the basic idea; Bring is the base, and someone with the Refresh can get all kinds of nifty tricks, but there's no strict progression that someone must follow.
And travel here does it does have its dangers; perhaps a compel from time to time to warrant this?
Precisely.
I can see it as possible, but I still feel as though it should have more flexibility than acting as the equivalent of a stunt to use a new skill (Empathy, in your case) to apply aspects to the situation. As only a Aspect Machine, it doesn't feel as though it carries the same degree of fear that we see in the source material, as Fate Witches were viewed as a powerful tool and commodity, and few wished to meet their gaze due to the power they possessed. Throwing an aspect on the table for a single compel (more if you have FP) just doesn't seem to meet that in my opinion.
There are two reasons why Sorte maneuvers should be scary. First, because the Strega doesn't need to actually do anything to enact their power. Unless you yourself are a Fate Witch, you have no way of knowing whether you've been cursed or how, much less proving it to anyone else. Secondly is that only a Strega can do anything about removing those aspects before they're tagged. I don't know how to balance that, mechanically, but a Sorte curse isn't something that can be dodged or waited out.
On that note, do you think everyone with a Bargainer Magic should have "Marked By Power" as a requirement, as each one is marked in some way?
I don't like Marked by Power in general; it's an unimpressive stunt which seems to mostly just cost Refresh for something that should be an as-needed High Concept invocation. I wouldn't even insist on it for a Knight of one of the Courts in DF.
Well, not every mage has Sidhe Blood if I remember correctly, but I know the Glamour itself was granted by Elaine having the Graal and all that jazz, which brought magic back to the land in the first place.
So why don't we stick with "Compelling the character's High Concept to act in accordance of the actions of the Invoked Legend or in benefit of Avalon"? Does that sound comprehensive enough?
That's fairly comprehensive; my recollection was that Glamour and fey blood were synonymous, but that may simply have been my GM's take.
I think Corps-a-Corps is an odd beastie as it deals damage AND knocks the opponent down. That said, I think we can use a stunt and tweak the "grapple" rules to simulate getting knocked over during the attack; perhaps allowing Weapons to create the necessary taggable Aspect and allow for a one-turn "grapple" to represent getting knocked over?
The others will take some work; I'll look over the rulebooks and see what I can offer later today/this week if time permits.
Sounds good.
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That's the basic idea; Bring is the base, and someone with the Refresh can get all kinds of nifty tricks, but there's no strict progression that someone must follow.
Precisely.
Awesome. I'll throw this into my "completed" notes section to be fleshed out later.
First, because the Strega doesn't need to actually do anything to enact their power.
Actually, they do. For a minor blessing/curse, they need to do a small "ritual" of looking into the eyes of the target, say their name three times, and kiss them. For some bigger things, the Strega has to do a tarot card spread to grant a longer-term bonus (in DFRPG, multiple maneuvers worth, basically).
Unless you yourself are a Fate Witch, you have no way of knowing whether you've been cursed or how, much less proving it to anyone else.
There are other types of sorceries that point this out, but I can give that to you.
But, when a Strega is doing the ritual, looking at the strands, etc, her eyes turn white. So if a Strega is looking at you with white eyes, you can probably guess there's something that's about to happen to you. For the bigger rituals, like the aforementioned tarot card spreads, you won't know.
Sounds a bit like Thaumaturgy for the big things, and a form of luck Channeling for the small parts.
Secondly is that only a Strega can do anything about removing those aspects before they're tagged. I don't know how to balance that, mechanically, but a Sorte curse isn't something that can be dodged or waited out.
I'll give you this one. The only way to get rid of the blessing/curse is by "luck" (in the core book, rolling a 1 or a 10), or basically acting in accordance to the curse.
I think the way to "balance" it is either "take out" the opponent and apply the Aspect until used, change one of their Aspects, or simply fill a higher consequence box, as the higher ones (especially the -6) take time, and since consequences need a proper reason to begin healing, you've taken care of that element with the type of "damage."
I have a Sorte write-up at the bottom of the post that is closer to what I am thinking. Let me know what you think.
I don't like Marked by Power in general; it's an unimpressive stunt which seems to mostly just cost Refresh for something that should be an as-needed High Concept invocation. I wouldn't even insist on it for a Knight of one of the Courts in DF.
True. I do like the idea of the power as it shows the markings and gives and intrinsic benefit of a bonus, but I don't think the full -1 refresh for a +1 AND a disadvantage is the way to go.
I think I'll go with the as-needed invocation as well on that one.
That's fairly comprehensive; my recollection was that Glamour and fey blood were synonymous, but that may simply have been my GM's take.
To quote the 7th Sea Player's Guide page 201: In the land of Avalon, the legends of the people come to life. Avalon sorcerers harness the energy of the people's belief and channel it in order to perform miraculous feats of strength, guile, or skill. This ability is known as Glamour. It was taught to the Avalons by the Sidhe, who gave them a magical artifact known as the Graal. If the Grall were to be lost, the sorcerers would lose their power until it was returned.
With that said, technically, ANYONE could learn Glamour if they learned how the harness the power of legends, which could explain why you have your general sorcerers and your bloodlines scattered around.
Added note: not all sorcerers are Sidhe Blooded, and not all Sidhe Blooded are sorcerers. Just throwing that out there.
Sounds good.
Glad you liked the write-up of that. I do plan to go Knack for Knack for one of these posts and write down how it can be emulated in Fate for your feedback.
What I'd like to propose is a writing of Sorte as a power, which pulls mostly from Sponsored Magic with limitations to the effects:
Sorte[-4]
Description: You are a Sorte Strega, one of the Vodacce women blessed (or cursed) with the power to see, alter, create, or destroy the strands of fate. . .at a cost. The strands are all tied to the suits of a Tarot Deck (Coins, Cups, Staves and Swords) with one exception: The Black Strand.
When using this ability, your eyes turn completely white, a sure sign of your heritage and power.
Musts: You must be a Vodacce Woman (or at least have Vodacce Blood), and have a High Concept to warrant this power.
Skills Affected: Empathy (Control), Presence (Power)
Effects:
Channeling and Ritual: Sorte is a form of magic that can only be used in the following ways:
See The Strands: You may use a Sorte/Channeling effect as a means of Assessing the targets High Concept, or as a Declaration regarding the what is the most "prominent" or specific "strand" that you wish to see.
Alter The Strands: Strengthening, or Weakening a strand is simple a Channeling maneuver to apply a related Aspect.
Destroying or Creating a strand, which is a permanent change, will require enough shifts to "Take Out" the target.
Blessings and Curses: At the speed of Evocation, you may place Blessings and Curses on a target as a maneuver. In order for this to work, you must say the name of your target three times and kiss them. If successful, this places an aspect upon them; this Aspect will last until the end of the scene it was created AND invoked, or until it is invoked.
Any Fallout from this effect must be taken as Physical stress or consequences.
Fate Spread: As a Ritual, you can place a temporary, but relatively long lasting effect (i.e. maneuver) on the target based upon the type of spread. A Coins Spread will be tied to wealth and resources (business deals, resource rolls), a Cups Spread will be tied to attraction and affection (love spells; social interaction with a specific target), a Staves Spread will relate to fame and reputation, and a Swords Spread will empower a weapon with Fate (apply one of more aspects to a weapon).
"Sponsor Debt": Like Sponsored Magic, a Fate Witch can incur "Sponsor Debt" to support her spells. This debt can take two forms: a "Fate Lash" or a "Fate Knot." A Fate Lash is simply physical stress akin to Fallout.
A Fate Knot, on the other hand, consists of Fate working against the Strega. The GM gains a Fate Point for each stress the Sponsor takes; these Fate Points can be used directly against the Strega (but not given to her) or to create events that would benefit the goal of the Bargainers.
Other Note: I am debating on throwing in the blocks from channeling like I previously mentioned. I am also tempted to leave the Arcana Spread (equivalent of changing the High Concept) as a Refinement and the Black Spread (permanently appearing youthful) either as a simple maneuver or a 0 point power.
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I feel like making Assessments part of the Channeling, thus requiring the expenditure of stress to obtain them, makes the power weaker than it should be. Otherwise, it seems balanced and hews fairly closely to the flavor.
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I feel like making Assessments part of the Channeling, thus requiring the expenditure of stress to obtain them, makes the power weaker than it should be. Otherwise, it seems balanced and hews fairly closely to the flavor.
So nuke the Assessment part of Channeling, and you think Sorte would be good to go?
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So nuke the Assessment part of Channeling, and you think Sorte would be good to go?
Rather, say that as part of this power, the range of possible Assessments is expanded to cover anything that Sorte can see or affect, regardless of whether there's any contextual reason for it to be apparent.
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Rather, say that as part of this power, the range of possible Assessments is expanded to cover anything that Sorte can see or affect, regardless of whether there's any contextual reason for it to be apparent.
Okay. Still leave it as Channeling then, or remove that cost?
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Okay, other things to look into:
Shamanism: Still to come.
Swordsman Schools: A later post, I promise!
"Special" Items:
Syrneth Artifacts, Twisted Blades, Glamour-Imbued items, Montaigne Puzzle Swords, Runed Weapons, Castillian Blades and Dracheneisen objects (among other "quality" objects) can use the Extras chapter from Fate Core or Item of Power depending on what it is.
For example, owning a Puzzle Sword would work best as an Aspect-Based Extra. It can be invoked for simple familiarity/quality on attack rolls, but it would also have one or two Aspects of it's own ("Ghost Hilt," "Hidden Clockwork Pistol," etc) that can be invoked for special effects.
A Castillian Blade (specifically, a Soldano Blade) would have aspects like "Well Balanced," "Sturdiest Blade of Castille," and/or "Sharpest Razor You'll Find."
Dracheneisen Weapons and Armor would just validate a reason to have higher Weapon or Armor ratings, but I would ensure that there is an Aspect around, or else it becomes "loot."
Some Syrneth Artifacts, Runed Objects and Twisted Blades ride the line of Enchanted Items and, depending on the effect, could even be an Item of Power. This one may be a play-by-ear, but personally, I'd set them up with a refresh cost equal to the necessary level of Refinement to cover the item slots needed. It'd be more limiting to use the Focus Items instead of the Enchanted Item slots.
For example, a Twisted Blade normally grants bonuses to attack and damage; pulling the notes from "Warden Sword" and granting it three uses of becoming a Weapon:6 for 2 slots would cost 1 Refresh.
For a shield with the Villskap rune, it could either act as an Item of Power granting a Breath Weapon or Channeling: Lightning (with points tossed in to use different skills for power/control), or it could act like Harry's Force rings (start at a low lore, perhaps around 2 for three times per game for 1 refresh).
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Okay. Still leave it as Channeling then, or remove that cost?
Removing the cost; reading the strands is the baseline ability of a Strega, and shouldn't be deeply taxing.
As far as items of note: I agree that many items can simply be Aspects. I don't really like solutions that involve enchanted items, since I find them a kind of abusable sub-system; Item of Power is the better way to build such things. I don't think it's unreasonable for dracheneisen armor to effectively add Toughness to a normal suit of armor, or for a Twisted Blade to let the wielder move with what seems like Inhuman Speed.
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And now for Swordsman School Knacks!
I'm only looking at the KNACKS right now, not the actual abilities granted to each school (that will come up in another post). This will include knacks from schools in Cathay and the Crescent Empire.
Ambush: I think this is covered under the Burglary and Perception skills, as it just says you know how to spot or plan an ambus.
Arc: This increases the range of bows/crossbows, so I can see it is as either a Stunt (increase range by one zone) or just a maneuver.
Bear Hug: This is basically the grapple rules in a nutshell; nothing to see here.
Beat: This knocks the weapon out of the way when you attack. I think a maneuver should cover this well enough.
Bind: Basically, a "weapon grapple." I think either adding it to the Weapon skill trapping as a grapple (only for the opponent's weapon) could work. Otherwise, a Stunt that allows Weapons to be used as a Grapple, but only against the held weapon.
Boarding: This one needs ship combat rules to really work, as it grants a bonus to your boarding action (a combat roll). A stunt might work in this case, but it is hard to say.
Bob'n'Weave: This gives you a bonus when an opponent misses you. I think the current Spin rules (or, better yet, the new boost mechanic of Fate Core) fit this without the need of the knack.
Charge: This just lets your first action go sooner. Change a name of one of the initiative-based Alertness abilities and you're golden.
Claw Hand: An attack that, if successful, deals damage AND makes the opponent lose their next action. I think it's not a good idea for DFRPG and will throw it out.
Corps-a-corps: We've already discussed this one, as it's a punch that knocks you down. Allows the character to use the Weapons skill to initiate a one-turn grapple.
Conceal: Just a way to hide a weapon; I think we're good with the skill system as it stands.
Disarm: Simply removing a weapon from an opponent's grasp. I'm thinking of simple maneuvers here for the narration side. Any objections?
Double-Parry: Using both weapons to parry an attack. 7th Sea mechanics gave a temporary Drama Die for using it. I'm thinking it may be better to use the same name as a Stunt to grant a defense bonus when using two weapons (perhaps like two-weapon fighting, where 1/2 of the weapon value is given?).
Double-Attack: Attack twice when using two weapons. We already have a two-weapon stunt in DFRPG, so I think we're good.
Exploit Weakness: This one is a challenge. Do we keep it around as a stunt for each school to grant an attack bonus, or make it just a narrative tool and a compel of Aspects?
Feint: Like Beat, it's a way to get around a weapon and/or a parry. I'd stick with maneuvers here. But, I'd be okay with the idea of offering the Feint Stunt that gives a bonus to creating maneuvers using the Weapon skill.
Fortitude: This knack lets you take hits better. I think we're covered with how the rest of the DFRPG already works.
Hook: This adds a bonus to hit with a Panzerhand. I don't think we really need it in the DFRPG.
Horse Archery: This is used when using a bow on horseback. I think making it a stunt to allow this task to be done should be sufficient.
Lance: This knack is used for using a polearm in mounted combat. I'm okay with ignoring it, unless you think there should be a Mounted Combat stunt tossed in.
Lunge: An old favourite of mine. You attack with disregard to defense to deal more damage. I can see it being a maneuver, but I'd loved to see a mechanic representation of this. Perhaps a weapons-grade "Killer Blows"?
Missile Defense: In 7th Sea, this was used to dodge thrown weapons. Moot point since we have Athletics.
Orders: This was for mass combat, specifically granting a bonus for one tactic. I doubt it will come up in DFRPG, but if it does, we can easily make it a Presence based stunt.
Pin (Knife): The whole idea of throwing a knife and pinning someone to the wall. I think this would simply be a stunt to "Use Weapons to Initiate a Grapple."
Poison: This was to allow a character to handle poisons safely. Perhaps a stunt would be needed to use Scholarship or Lore for such a purpose?
Pommel Strike: Kind of like Corps-a-Corps, only it dealt more damage in 7th Sea. I can still see it working the same way, or simply as a maneuver.
Power Block: This was an "Offensive Block" against an unarmed attacker. Basically, it's Riposte with your fists. Rip the effect of Riposte and your good.
Reflection: This was an insane power from the Sidhe School from Bryn Bresail. It allows you to imitate your opponent's fighting style. Perhaps using "Mimic Abilities" and requiring a Weapons or Alertness roll to notice how the stunt is done to use for the scene?
Reload: With the long reloads of muskets, this was a useful knack to have. I'd say keep it as a stunt to allow speedy reloads.
Riposte: It works just fine in DFRPG, so no need to recreate the wheel. Move along. . .
Snap Kick and Stop Thrust: Both of these attacks work the same mechanically; one would use Fists, the other uses Weapons. If it hit hard enough, it actually CANCELLED the opponent's attack...I think it's a bit too rough to keep for DFRPG.
Perhaps if we pull the "counter attack" mechanic from another game, make this a stunt, and simply state "Whoever has the higher roll hits and interrupts the others attack," we might have something. Perhaps limiting it via spending Fate Points or once per scene would make it more balanced?
Tagging: The quintessential maneuver, right here. I like the idea of buying a stunt that makes any Aspect created and tagged by someone with this stunt worth +3 instead of +2 would be worthwhile.
Throw: This was just to attack with thrown weapons. We can ignore it.
Trick Riding: This one allows a collection of tricks to be done on horseback. Perhaps a stunt to allow the use of Riding in lieu of Perform for entertainment purposes, use Perform instead of Riding for general riding a horse, or just simply a bonus for any over the top action, including maneuvers?
Trick Shooting: Basically, trick shots like ricochets. If there isn't already a Stunt for it, I can see it being a bonus to creating scene aspects, maneuvers, or being a way to bypass a block.
Wall of Steel: This increased your defense until your action. I can't think of a way to emulate this in DFRPG.
Whirl: This basically gave a bonus to hitting Brute Squads (groups of nameless NPCs that died in one hit). I don't think this one is really relevant to the DFRPG.
And there you have it, all the stunts! Soon I'll go through the abilities of the schools and go from there. . .
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Removing the cost; reading the strands is the baseline ability of a Strega, and shouldn't be deeply taxing.
Noted and done.
As far as items of note: I agree that many items can simply be Aspects. I don't really like solutions that involve enchanted items, since I find them a kind of abusable sub-system; Item of Power is the better way to build such things. I don't think it's unreasonable for dracheneisen armor to effectively add Toughness to a normal suit of armor, or for a Twisted Blade to let the wielder move with what seems like Inhuman Speed.
I figured the Items of Note would be easiest as extras, but some just seem too stretch the boundary, thus the thought.
The Enchanted Item approach can be abuseable if it isn't limited, but I think with the right limits, it could work. Thoughts?
And yes, I agree with the thoughts you have regarding Dracheneisen Armor and Twisted Blades; items that emulate powers is the whole point of Items of Power, ne?
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Now for the school abilities:
A part of me is thinking of staging the requirements in order to gain new "ranks" in the school; if it requires stunts, then buy the stunts to get the title of that rank. Of course, most advanced ranks are just stronger versions of previous ones, which makes me wonder: should we just simply deal with the stunts as-is, or provide "upgrades" like some of the powers provide?
First, for the obligatory "No Penalty For Off-Hand Weapons/Objects," we can either have a Stunt (two weapon fighting, shield training, etc) or just leave it as is for narrative effect.
Second, I'm ignoring the "Active Defense" bonuses granted by most two-weapon schools. Any time you see a defense comment, it's a Passive Effect.
Third, I'm ignoring the "Free Rank in <Skill>" since it doesn't fit well in DFRPG.
Aldana Apprentice: Initiative bonus - buy the stunt for +2 Initiative and be done with it.
Aldana Journeyman: Increased Defense - buy a stunt for a Defense boost, spent FP on invokes, make it a navel gazing maneuver?
Aldana Master: Focus Dice (basically, trance and get bonuses) - Navel Gazing Maneuver, or create a new power to emulate an effect like this?
Ambrogia Apprentice: Twist the weapon to deal more damage - Narrative effect of the attack, maneuver, invoke the concept, or a stunt?
Ambrogia Journeyman: When you wound an opponent, wound yourself to wound them again - I don't think DFRPG can handle something like this. Perhaps a stunt to overextend yourself take 2 stress, deal 2 more stress?
Ambrogia Master: If your opponent misses, your next attack is insanely easy - This is basically like Riposte, so I would just leave it with that.
Andrews Apprentice: A bonus to defense when not doing a lunge - Moot point in DFRPG; invokes or maneuvers.
Andrews Journeyman: Even more defense (doubles) - Perhaps a stunt to increase the full defense bonus?
Andrews Journeyman: EVEN MORE DEFENSE...and a bonus to Lunge - Invokes and Maneuvers may just be best here. . .
Bernoulli Apprentice: Bonus to defense - Invoke away!
Bernoulli Journeyman: Bonus to defense and bonuses to hit and damage on lunges - Invokes, maneuvers, etc.
Bernoulli Master - More defense, re-roll a failed attack - We already get the re-roll, so ignore it.
Bogatyr Apprentice: Bonus to attacking with an Axe - Invoke or Maneuvers; Stunts may be OP.
Bogatyr Journeyman: Your axe deals more damage - Killing Blows stunt.
Bogatyr Master: Gain a fear rating - Perhaps a stunt to use Weapons as an Intimidate Action? A bonus for intimidating targets?
Bonita Apprentice: When you hold an action, get a better chance of acting first in a later phase - Maneuver or Invoke for Initiative, basically.
Bonita Journeyman: Bonus to chasing, increased defense - Chase is a simply Athletics stunt, defense is like the above.
Bonita Master: When out of actions, spend a Drama Die to defend - I'm looking at invokes again, since DFRPG already lets you parry every attack.
Boucher Apprentice: Improved Initiative when wielding two knives - Buy the stunt at be done.
Boucher Journeyman: Opponents have a penalty to parry when you wield two knives - I'm looking at invoking here once again, or maneuvers.
Boucher Master - Multiple Attacks in Rapid Succession, but decreased accuracy - Two Weapon Fighting again. Perhaps a new stunt to increase the damage, or making an extra attack?
Buslayevich Apprentice: Bonus to horse archery and riding without reins - simple stunts for the most part, invokes for further bonuses.
Buslayevich Journeyman: Bonus to Trick Riding, Animal Training and Chases - All stunts, right there.
Buslayevich Master: Bigger bonus on trick riding, animal training, chases and horseback archery. Also gain 3 drama dice to be used while on horseback - Looking at what we have above.
Cappuntina Apprentice: Draw a knife and throw it in one action - I think there's a Quick Draw stunt already. If not, add it here.
Cappuntina Journeyman: Throw two knives at a single target - Two Weapon Fighting, but with throwing knives.
Cappuntina Master: Throw three knives in an action, can be at different targets - Spray attack for the multiple targets, another version of Two-Weapons for the third knife in the same target?
Chima Gonjian Shou Apprentice: Extra damage with your bow and can basically do Horseback Archery - Stunt for the Horseback Archery, Killing Blow but with a bow.
Chima Gonjian Shou Journeyman: Increased accuracy - Maneuver or Invoke; stunt may be OP.
Chima Gonjian Shou Master: Improved Initiative - Get the stunt and be done.
Chin Te Apprentice: Bonus to attack with a two-section flail - Invoke/Maneuver.
Chin Te Journeyman: If you succeed at an attack, make another attack - Use Two Weapon Fighting, but only with the flail?
Chin Te Master: Spin your weapon to improve defense - Basically a Block action, move alone.
Daphan Apprentice: Improved Initiative - you've seen what I said, move along. . .
Daphan Journeyman: Whenever an opponent parries you, spend a drama die to break their weapon - I'm looking at either a more permanent disarm action (maneuver), or an actual attack versus the weapon (give the object a stress track). The latter may work better for aspect-level objects, though...
Daphan Master: Take a penalty to attack, gain a bonus to damage - I'd go with Killing Blows again. . .
And I'll stop there for now. I need to close up for now, but I will get back to this later/tomorrow.
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And now for Swordsman School Knacks!
I'm only looking at the KNACKS right now, not the actual abilities granted to each school (that will come up in another post). This will include knacks from schools in Cathay and the Crescent Empire.
Ambush: I think this is covered under the Burglary and Perception skills, as it just says you know how to spot or plan an ambus.
Arc: This increases the range of bows/crossbows, so I can see it is as either a Stunt (increase range by one zone) or just a maneuver.
Bear Hug: This is basically the grapple rules in a nutshell; nothing to see here.
Beat: This knocks the weapon out of the way when you attack. I think a maneuver should cover this well enough.
Bind: Basically, a "weapon grapple." I think either adding it to the Weapon skill trapping as a grapple (only for the opponent's weapon) could work. Otherwise, a Stunt that allows Weapons to be used as a Grapple, but only against the held weapon.
Boarding: This one needs ship combat rules to really work, as it grants a bonus to your boarding action (a combat roll). A stunt might work in this case, but it is hard to say.
Bob'n'Weave: This gives you a bonus when an opponent misses you. I think the current Spin rules (or, better yet, the new boost mechanic of Fate Core) fit this without the need of the knack.
Charge: This just lets your first action go sooner. Change a name of one of the initiative-based Alertness abilities and you're golden.
Claw Hand: An attack that, if successful, deals damage AND makes the opponent lose their next action. I think it's not a good idea for DFRPG and will throw it out.
Corps-a-corps: We've already discussed this one, as it's a punch that knocks you down. Allows the character to use the Weapons skill to initiate a one-turn grapple.
Conceal: Just a way to hide a weapon; I think we're good with the skill system as it stands.
Disarm: Simply removing a weapon from an opponent's grasp. I'm thinking of simple maneuvers here for the narration side. Any objections?
Double-Parry: Using both weapons to parry an attack. 7th Sea mechanics gave a temporary Drama Die for using it. I'm thinking it may be better to use the same name as a Stunt to grant a defense bonus when using two weapons (perhaps like two-weapon fighting, where 1/2 of the weapon value is given?).
Double-Attack: Attack twice when using two weapons. We already have a two-weapon stunt in DFRPG, so I think we're good.
Exploit Weakness: This one is a challenge. Do we keep it around as a stunt for each school to grant an attack bonus, or make it just a narrative tool and a compel of Aspects?
Feint: Like Beat, it's a way to get around a weapon and/or a parry. I'd stick with maneuvers here. But, I'd be okay with the idea of offering the Feint Stunt that gives a bonus to creating maneuvers using the Weapon skill.
Fortitude: This knack lets you take hits better. I think we're covered with how the rest of the DFRPG already works.
Hook: This adds a bonus to hit with a Panzerhand. I don't think we really need it in the DFRPG.
Horse Archery: This is used when using a bow on horseback. I think making it a stunt to allow this task to be done should be sufficient.
Lance: This knack is used for using a polearm in mounted combat. I'm okay with ignoring it, unless you think there should be a Mounted Combat stunt tossed in.
Lunge: An old favourite of mine. You attack with disregard to defense to deal more damage. I can see it being a maneuver, but I'd loved to see a mechanic representation of this. Perhaps a weapons-grade "Killer Blows"?
Missile Defense: In 7th Sea, this was used to dodge thrown weapons. Moot point since we have Athletics.
Orders: This was for mass combat, specifically granting a bonus for one tactic. I doubt it will come up in DFRPG, but if it does, we can easily make it a Presence based stunt.
Pin (Knife): The whole idea of throwing a knife and pinning someone to the wall. I think this would simply be a stunt to "Use Weapons to Initiate a Grapple."
Poison: This was to allow a character to handle poisons safely. Perhaps a stunt would be needed to use Scholarship or Lore for such a purpose?
Pommel Strike: Kind of like Corps-a-Corps, only it dealt more damage in 7th Sea. I can still see it working the same way, or simply as a maneuver.
Power Block: This was an "Offensive Block" against an unarmed attacker. Basically, it's Riposte with your fists. Rip the effect of Riposte and your good.
Reflection: This was an insane power from the Sidhe School from Bryn Bresail. It allows you to imitate your opponent's fighting style. Perhaps using "Mimic Abilities" and requiring a Weapons or Alertness roll to notice how the stunt is done to use for the scene?
Reload: With the long reloads of muskets, this was a useful knack to have. I'd say keep it as a stunt to allow speedy reloads.
Riposte: It works just fine in DFRPG, so no need to recreate the wheel. Move along. . .
Snap Kick and Stop Thrust: Both of these attacks work the same mechanically; one would use Fists, the other uses Weapons. If it hit hard enough, it actually CANCELLED the opponent's attack...I think it's a bit too rough to keep for DFRPG.
Perhaps if we pull the "counter attack" mechanic from another game, make this a stunt, and simply state "Whoever has the higher roll hits and interrupts the others attack," we might have something. Perhaps limiting it via spending Fate Points or once per scene would make it more balanced?
Tagging: The quintessential maneuver, right here. I like the idea of buying a stunt that makes any Aspect created and tagged by someone with this stunt worth +3 instead of +2 would be worthwhile.
Throw: This was just to attack with thrown weapons. We can ignore it.
Trick Riding: This one allows a collection of tricks to be done on horseback. Perhaps a stunt to allow the use of Riding in lieu of Perform for entertainment purposes, use Perform instead of Riding for general riding a horse, or just simply a bonus for any over the top action, including maneuvers?
Trick Shooting: Basically, trick shots like ricochets. If there isn't already a Stunt for it, I can see it being a bonus to creating scene aspects, maneuvers, or being a way to bypass a block.
Wall of Steel: This increased your defense until your action. I can't think of a way to emulate this in DFRPG.
Whirl: This basically gave a bonus to hitting Brute Squads (groups of nameless NPCs that died in one hit). I don't think this one is really relevant to the DFRPG.
And there you have it, all the stunts! Soon I'll go through the abilities of the schools and go from there. . .
Binding and disarming should be simple maneuvers, possibly with a stunt for a bonus. I'm wary of things granting bonuses to attack/defense; I'd have a Double Parry stunt make it easier to get spin on defense when using two weapons, since that holds to the original mechanic (fancy defense gets you something to use going forward). Exploit Weakness is very much within the realm of compels, but I can see room for a stunt granting more value from maneuvers against certain styles.
Lunge could indeed be something like that, save that Killer Blows is a terrible stunt. A Fate Point added to an attack already gives +2 stress; Killer Blows only adds +1 stress once per scene. I'd rather hark back to the Lunge mechanic; gain a +2 to stress inflicted in exchange for offering a Mediocre defense until your next turn.
Stop Thrust/Snap Kick could be as follows: sacrifice your next action, make a Weapons roll; if it hits, the incoming attack fails, but if it misses, you offer a Mediocre defense against the incoming attack. Useful when you see a bad attack coming in, or when you have some bonus to attack that you don't have to defense.
I'd like Tagging to give bonuses only when what's being done is not a physical attack. Carving your initials in someone's pants seat isn't to help you stab them to death, it's to help you humiliate them, convince them that you're the superior swordsman, or show your mercy to the love interest who commands them.
Everything I didn't comment on looks good.
EDIT: Enough of the school abilities seem like they're more invoke-fodder than actual stunts that I think it's more worth calling out the ones that really need/can be a stunt, and otherwise mostly making it a question of Aspects.
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Binding and disarming should be simple maneuvers, possibly with a stunt for a bonus.
Agreed. Do you think the stunt for those should be a simple +1 bonus?
I'm wary of things granting bonuses to attack/defense; I'd have a Double Parry stunt make it easier to get spin on defense when using two weapons, since that holds to the original mechanic (fancy defense gets you something to use going forward).
Perhaps we should modify the rules from Fate Core, as they tweaked "spin" into a "boost," where if you beat the roll by 3 or more, you were given a one-time Aspect that only you could tag. Perhaps giving a stunt that reduces this margin by one?
Exploit Weakness is very much within the realm of compels, but I can see room for a stunt granting more value from maneuvers against certain styles.
My concern with that is the need to purchase a stunt every time you would want to acquire the new school bonus. Perhaps we should stick within the realm of compels and call it good?
Lunge could indeed be something like that, save that Killer Blows is a terrible stunt. A Fate Point added to an attack already gives +2 stress; Killer Blows only adds +1 stress once per scene. I'd rather hark back to the Lunge mechanic; gain a +2 to stress inflicted in exchange for offering a Mediocre defense until your next turn.
I'm not going to lie that I dislike Killer Blows, but it's as close to the idea as I had.
I think that idea of a stunt as manageable, considering you can have a "full defense" for +2 for the turn, so getting the extra damage in exchange for defense should be workable.
Stop Thrust/Snap Kick could be as follows: sacrifice your next action, make a Weapons roll; if it hits, the incoming attack fails, but if it misses, you offer a Mediocre defense against the incoming attack. Useful when you see a bad attack coming in, or when you have some bonus to attack that you don't have to defense.
I think that one is acceptable as well and should work.
I'd like Tagging to give bonuses only when what's being done is not a physical attack. Carving your initials in someone's pants seat isn't to help you stab them to death, it's to help you humiliate them, convince them that you're the superior swordsman, or show your mercy to the love interest who commands them.
So you would rather have a stunt for someone "tag" the belt-buckle of an opponent and get a bigger bonus to social (or even, arguably, defense) rolls instead of the next attack roll?
Everything I didn't comment on looks good.
Awesome. I'll add more of a writeup to my list.
EDIT: Enough of the school abilities seem like they're more invoke-fodder than actual stunts that I think it's more worth calling out the ones that really need/can be a stunt, and otherwise mostly making it a question of Aspects.
Sounds good enough. Perhaps I'll look through all of the schools, note the general abilities that are present in most of them, and just throw out the data that way?
My biggest concern, besides the defense, is the weapon breaking. I don't think simple disarms would cut it, considering the possibility of non-standard objects being aspects; it would really suck to have your aspect "Inherited Soldano Steel" be destroyed on a bad roll against a maneuver.
Then again, it does sort of fit with minor milestones. . .
Thoughts?
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To go along the line I mentioned in the last comment, here are the ways I KNOW we can emulate some of the special abilities from a school:
Increases to a non-combat skill: Simply buy a stunt relating to it (i.e. Trick Riding: Gain a +2 on rolls regarding Perform while riding a horse).
The ability to do X: Buy a stunt that allows this to happen. Shield use, mounted combat
Negate the penalty of. . .: Some of this is narration (two weapons, for example), some is mechanical (the aforementioned shield use). We should be good there on a case-by-case basis.
Two Attacks: The Two-Weapon Fighting Stunt takes care of this problem.
Attack Multiple Targets: The Wall of Death stunt for a spray attack can cover this without an issue.
If X, Then Y: The biggest examples of "If your opponent misses, make a free disarm attempt", "If you bind your opponent's weapon, you may attempt to disarm them immediately", or "If you bind, gain a bonus to disarm." Each of these can utilize a current mechanic or be a stunt, as they are all under a VERY narrow focus; the miss can use the new boost mechanic from Core (stunt to reduce it), same thing with the Bind, and the disarm bonus can simply be a stunt.
Gain a Fear Rating: Two approaches to this: buy a stunt to gain a bonus for Intimidation, or use Weapons as an Intimidation attack/maneuver. Could even buy both and it should work.
Free Raises: Simply compels or buy a stunt that gives a bonus of +1 for using the weapon in that appointed matter.
New Defense: Anything that allows you to roll to set a new TN for your defense should simply be read as a Block using the Weapons (or related) skill.
Combat Bonuses: This is aimed at things like grapple, off-hand parry, horseback archery, etc. I'd be okay with buying a stunt to grant the +1 bonus aimed at this.
Interrupt Attacks: See the notes on Stop-Thrust in the previous post.
Left Handed: This tends to be a big thing in the fencing world, and a few schools give this bonus. Honestly, I'm game for invokes here, as a stunt would be too much potential for stacking.
Drunken Boxing: I think a stunt is perfectly acceptable for this, as it is rather limited with how you can acquire that bonus.
Improvised Weapons/Shields: I think the declaration, assessment, maneuver, and even just the Weapon/Fists skill covers this rather well, and will leave it like that.
Gelingen Monster Hunting: Use the Occultist stunt to help with Declarations, Assessments and Compels. This may be an alternative to general Exploit Weakness.
Now for the stuff I can't decide:
Attack and Defense bonuses: Most of this can simply be invoking of the aspect with the school, but since the source material has it steadily increase based on rank, I have a hard time accepting this.
The closest thing I can think of is to provide a stunt that grants a +1 to attack or defense within certain circumstances (while using that weapon, only in melee), and allow it to be purchased up to three times.
Damage Bonuses: There are a few ways around this. The first is the rip off the effect of Inhuman Strength when it comes to damage, and only with the weapon in question. Another is to use a stunt, like a weakened (non-FP powered) Killer Blows to increase the Weapon Value of the preferred weapon by 1.
Alternatively, there was a stunt in Fate Core called Killing Stroke: if your opponent is about to take a consequence, spend an FP and force them to take a consequence larger than planned (i.e. if they took 6 stress and wanted to fill their -4, you could spend a FP and make them fill their -6 instead).
Finally, basic compel/invoke mechanics could, in theory, work.
Weapon Breaking: There are multiple thoughts here. The first is to make the break like the grapple rules or a disarm; set up your opponent by creating an aspect to invoke, then invoke it for the purpose of your task. Basically it removes the weapon, only more permanently.
Alternatively, you could give the weapon a number of stress boxes/durability and have it absorb the abuse that way.
"Focus" Dice and similar effects: Some schools grant a bigger dice pool for set tasks (like Initiative), or even ANY task involving combat (like the bonus from Aldana). I'm going to be honest: I don't know what would be best emulate this. Modular Abilities? The ability to purchase powers (which gives them an INSANE edge)? New stunts?
If your opponent misses, their defense drops: The Riposte stunt as written is the closest thing I've seen to this. Any better ideas?
Extra Actions: I really don't think DFRPG/Fate is up for multiple actions per turn without taking penalties, especially considering some of these are multiple attacks. . .
Multiple Attacks: Dealing with a two weapon school with two attacks is easy to deal with. Dealing with a two weapon school that allows MORE than two attacks is the challenge. Perhaps further stunts to increase the damage from Two-Weapon fighting?
Lower Opponent's Defense. Period.: I'm looking at maneuvers again, because making an attack that is harder to parry seems like a lot of tags, invokes, and compels. Having a stunt that always causes that drop seems a bit to OP, and it wouldn't be anything more than a +1 attack with the way stunts are set up. Opinions?
Bonus Drama Dice if X condition is met: This would be the equivalent of giving out free Fate Points for the scene. I don't think this can be converted.
Skill X is now a bonus for Y: I can see this being an invocation for a bonus, but I can see that getting expensive. Perhaps a stunt that allows a secondary skill (like Perform) be able to modify/supplement the primary skill (like Weapons)?
Bonus Against Wounds: The closest thought here is getting a stunt that grants an extra consequence, an Armor rating or something similar. Basically, a weakened version of Inhuman Toughness. Otherwise, a stunt that allows Endurance to be used as a defense/block. Not certain what else to offer up.
Offensive Blocks: I know this tends to be bad juju in this community, but some schools (like Donovan) have the ability to deal a minor bit of damage after every successful parry. I can't think of a good way to do this, and would scrap it, but I'm looking for opinions.
Stances: Not many schools have them, and I'd simply just use it as navel gazing maneuvers or as a special variant of Modular Abilities, letting you purchase stunts (and ONLY stunts) based on the "stance" involved (one gives Initiative bonuses, one gives damage bonuses, etc). If this route is taken, I'd think reducing the cost of modular abilities from -2 to -1 may be in order.
Immunity to an attack: This is from one of the schools from Bryn Bresail, and I'm tempted to toss it. It's a contested roll, and if you succeed, you are immune to that attack for the rest of the scene. I think it's too close to the Immunity power.
Protecting Others: Would this constitute simply as a block, or something more?
Syrneth Tinkering: I know this isn't a "school" per se, but it technically is. The ability to tinker with ancient artifacts and make working devices almost falls into the purview of Crafting. . .
Raising the Stakes: With Valroux, if they call for a Raise (increased difficulty) and succeed, the opponent must match that roll at LEAST. Basically, it's a Block that uses the connecting attack roll for it's base.
A bit too OP?
Lower Defense For Stronger Attack: Some schools drop their guard to catch an opponent unaware and deal some major damage, especially with the Stop-Thrust. I don't think it translates well, thought.
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Agreed. Do you think the stunt for those should be a simple +1 bonus?
I feel like most stunts for specific maneuvers are +2s, but I could be misremembering.
Perhaps we should modify the rules from Fate Core, as they tweaked "spin" into a "boost," where if you beat the roll by 3 or more, you were given a one-time Aspect that only you could tag. Perhaps giving a stunt that reduces this margin by one?
Sounds good to me; side note, I could never actually find in the Fate Core where Boosts were defined.
My concern with that is the need to purchase a stunt every time you would want to acquire the new school bonus. Perhaps we should stick within the realm of compels and call it good?
Probably simpler than creating rules for what schools you do and don't have.
I'm not going to lie that I dislike Killer Blows, but it's as close to the idea as I had.
I think that idea of a stunt as manageable, considering you can have a "full defense" for +2 for the turn, so getting the extra damage in exchange for defense should be workable.
Sounds good.
So you would rather have a stunt for someone "tag" the belt-buckle of an opponent and get a bigger bonus to social (or even, arguably, defense) rolls instead of the next attack roll?
Pretty much. Bonuses to attack are big things, but something which encourages the combination of repartee and swordplay that makes up classic swashbuckling combat is something I'd like.
Sounds good enough. Perhaps I'll look through all of the schools, note the general abilities that are present in most of them, and just throw out the data that way?
Sounds good.
My biggest concern, besides the defense, is the weapon breaking. I don't think simple disarms would cut it, considering the possibility of non-standard objects being aspects; it would really suck to have your aspect "Inherited Soldano Steel" be destroyed on a bad roll against a maneuver.
Then again, it does sort of fit with minor milestones. . .
Thoughts?
In general, I don't like the idea of weapon breakage; a properly made sword, even one that isn't your father's Soldano blade, can't really be broken without taking the time to stick it into a vise and go at it with a hammer. Definitely opposed to aspects or Items of Power being broken; there's a reason they all get the "no breaking me without major plot" quality for free.
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Before I get into ideas: Boosts are defined on page 62 of Fate Core (bottom of the page), and started on page 138, they go into the Four Outcomes ("Succeeding With Style" being what grants the boost), and then the main actions of a character.
Now, since we seem to agree on everything else, I'll work on the one point of "debate" that still remains:
In general, I don't like the idea of weapon breakage; a properly made sword, even one that isn't your father's Soldano blade, can't really be broken without taking the time to stick it into a vise and go at it with a hammer. Definitely opposed to aspects or Items of Power being broken; there's a reason they all get the "no breaking me without major plot" quality for free.
I'd personally like to leave the idea in place as it was a big deal for a couple of the schools (Eisenfaust and Daphan off the top of my head, but I recall seeing it in one or two more schools) and at least one type of Montaigne Puzzle Sword (it had a sword-breaker hammer if I remember correctly). I can see it as a good plot device to promote Aspects being changed, or even a story line to gain a new weapon or repair the old one. We see some epic tales like that already, so why not keep it?
Items of Power hit that grey area, as in 7th Sea, VERY few items were truly unbreakable. The unbreakable items were types of Syrneth artifacts, some other relics, and one type of Montaign Puzzle Sword. Different blades were tougher to break (Soldano blades, Pattern-welded swords, and Dracheneisen are the first I can name offhand), but they were breakable in the end. Since it required a Drama Die to do it, it was usually at a cost AND dramatically appropriate, so why not emulate it?
Perhaps we should toss it in as a Stunt to even be able to attempt it, and if it is an IoP or an Aspect, a Fate Point must be given to the character?
I can see an IoP breaking causing a potential Aspect change or even an in-game story to replace it, while an Aspect being "forced" to be changed can be attributed to the end of game minor milestone to simulate the broken weapon and how it impacts the character.
Just a thought, of course.
I'll start writing up the other stuff when I have the mentality to do it. Work has me doing a lot of report writing lately, and that's been making me unmotivated to stay at the computer any longer than I have to.
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I've been fending off a plague recently, so I've been away from the keyboard for a while (and may continue to do so for a while after this depending on how long this lasts).
While I am still coherent: I spoke with one of my DFRPG players and fellow 7th Sea GM, and he agreed that keeping the weapon breaking would be a good idea. This is what we've come up with:
Weapons Stunt: Weapon Breaker
Note: You must have a reason behind taking this Stunt; normally training in a specialized school of combat or a specific weapon-breaking tool.
As with the grapple rules, you must have an appropriate aspect to tag in order to perform this maneuver. With the expenditure of a FATE Point (which goes to the victim), you may attack your opponents weapon directly. Your opponent rolls Weapons to resist the attempt. If successful, you deal damage to the weapon as you would damage a character. A weapon has a number of stress boxes equal to its Weapon Value. Some weapons may be stronger than other, and may be ruled accordingly. As a rule of thumb: items of Quality gain +1 stress box, weapons that are Aspects gain +2 stress boxes, and items of various materials may gain an armor rating.
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I haven't forgotten about this, but I've gotten sidetracked with the umpteen drafts of my yearly review (just finished last week) and the two FATE games I am running for a convention in two weeks.
Any feedback anyone can provide for the above would be greatly appreciated.
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One of the random things that's come up as I've been writing out my notes and soundboarding with my (potential) players: how much of this could be better using FATE Core vs DFRPG? Anyone have any input on this?
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As I'm doing some of the number crunching, I've realized I've hit a snag with the Twice-Blooded or Half-Blooded sorceries.
I mean, with Porte and Pyryem, it's easy: buy your specific stunts/forms and be done with it. Most of the others reach the point of utilizing the High Concept of being Twice-Blooded to limit the sort of high-end things you can do.
But when you want to combine Glamour with El Fuego Adentro, for example, I hit a snag in numbers (as El Fuego Adentro is essentially Channeling with Physical Immunity to Fire, making it cost 5 Refresh, while Glamour is Sponsored Magic at -4), making the character a -9 Refresh at the start and relying on Aspects to keep the magical abilities on hold. Doable, but a bit clunky in my head, as the character is paying full price and not having the full powers at their disposal.
That said, should that concept be scrapped due to lack of translation, or should it be kept and narrowed down even further, like changing some of the Channeling abilities to Breath Weapon, or reducing the cost of "sponsored magic" type abilities and removing some of the major aspects of them.
Of course, this is where the "Limitation" custom power could be brought up, but I wonder if "Weak Blood" is a proper limitation here, as it impacts the overall capabilities and not actual availability.
For those of you who don't know 7th Sea: If you are a Full-Blooded mage, you could have immense power at your disposal as long as you dedicated yourself to it. Think of it as an equivalent of starting the game with Ritual and moving up to full blown Thaumaturgy, or starting with Beast Change and ending with True Shapeshifter.
Half-Blooded characters have access to the magic of their country but in a VERY limited manner. The differences don't translate very well, but it'd be closer to compare Channeling to Thaumaturgy. While a full- and half-blooded start in the same place with the same trick or two, the half-blooded gets left WAY behind in the scale of power.
For those who have followed the above discussion as a whole but don't know the setting: Porte could only open small portals for objects, but could never do the world-walker side of things; Pyryem could only turn into the full animal forms and not take the individual aspects (like taking the strength of a bear); Glamour was limited to just a fraction of the power available from the invoked legend (like turning a coin into a leaf when compared to being immortal in your own home); Sorte could see the strands and offer blessings, but could NEVER touch them. Those are the big ones here, and trying to limit them is the issue.
So...suggestions? Comments? Anything?