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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Theonlyspiral on January 18, 2013, 07:59:48 PM
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Hey guys, I've got another question for the universal wisdom. In our game (linked below) we have a public park that is serving as a prison for a powerful Giant Formor. numerous leylines have been moved in ancient times to keep this one powerful creature from when the Formor were originally driven underwater. Almost noone in the city knows what is underneath and it being released would basically be game over. In YS when it's talking about Baltimore, it has very basic rules for attuning yourself to the Ley Lines as a lesser form of Sponsored magic. So in this case how would it work?
Would you only have access to the Sponsorship in the park? Or would the city?
Would you still take debt outside of the park and get compelled but other abilities only function there ? (Intellectus?)
Would the compel be based on keeping the Formor imprisoned? Or on the agenda of the Aboriginal Peoples that first incarcerated it?
Basically this is a little far out from normal sponsored magic and some guidance would be appreciated!
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Well, it's up to the GM, really.
In order though:
1. This one's a GM call. If you pay the full Sponsored Magic cost it works anywhere, if you get the discount version it only works 'in the location'. Exactly what that means is up to the GM...but bear in mind that players get Compels whenever the powers they have would be useful but they can't use them.
2. Uh...you can only take debt when using the Sponsored Magic...so no, they can't take more in places where they can't do that. They could still be forced to pay some of it off whenever and wherever, though. Intellectus as such is outside the scope of the rules, and, indeed, requires more than attuning to a leyline to get.
3. Up to your GM. I'd be inclined to be capricious and have it be a mix, depending on whether the Fomor had corrupted that particular bit of magic you just used. So sometimes one and sometimes the other.
The rules for leyline sponsored Magic are also on p. 292 under 'Places of Power' just in case you missed that.
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The answer would be, as is so often: it depends on what you want.
The difference would first of all be, that stationary sponsored magic costs 1 fate point less than regular sponsored magic.
Beyond that, some thoughts:
If the prison is very localized, it would indeed only work in the park, but since that would probably be fairly boring, I would look for a way to make it work at least throughout the city. One idea for that could be, that the ley lines have been manipulated to converge on the prison, but they have to come from somewhere. The City you are in is where they start to meet, and at points where two ley lines meet, things start to happen. Maybe magic is bubbling up uncontrollably, or the places attract certain nasties that start messing with them (intentionally or coincidentally). The job of the character with the sponsored magic would be to fix those things, so the prison is kept intact. Seems like enough of an agenda to work with.
As you say, I would keep things like Intellectus rather limited. In the park and maybe he gets a vague knowledge of where and what is going wrong with the net of ley lines, when he is in the park, so he knows what to look for. You could even go so far as to grant him ritual/channeling in the sponsors style magic always, but he can only draw upon the sponsor, when he is on or very close to a ley line. That would mean he is carrying most of the magic with him, but if he needs to dig extra deep, he can only do so at locations close to the sponsors power.
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I mostly agree with Deadmanwalking, except...
Not having access to a Power can be Compel but it doesn't have to be.
And I'm pretty sure I could stat intellectus.
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This is what I have so far...I got my book back from a friend I leant it to. I know it's simaler to Kemmlerian Necromancy but I was honestly stumped.
GIFT OF THE CONFLUX [-4]
Description: Tapping into the Ley-Line construct in Nose Hill Park, you've managed to channel a portion of it's great energy...however now you are bound to be a keeper of that which sleeps beneath.
Sponsor: The Ley-Line Prison that hold a Formorian Giant.
Agenda: The prison was constructed to keep the giant imprisoned, and you are now responsibile for keeping the prison secure. Occasional dark impulses favouring the Formor and it's release bubble up...but how bad could it be?
Evocation: The Gift of the Conflux does not provide any form of Evocation.
Thaumaturgy:The Gift of the conflux provides the ability to use Summoning and Binding Thaumaturgy.
Evothaum: Any Thaumaturgy cast with the Gift of the Conflux can be done with the speed and meathods of Evocation.
Extra Benefits: The Gift of the Conflux gives a +1 bonus to Complexity and Power for Summoning and Binding. Furthermore when using Summoning and Bnding at the speed of Evocation you can use your specializations in place of your normal Evocation specializations.
Restrictions: The benefits of this magic can only be used within the City Limits of Calgary.
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Uh...all canonical Sponsored Magic does Evocation. If it doesn't it's something else.
Additionally, I'm pretty sure you already use Summoning and Binding specializations for Summoning and Binding regardless of what speed you're doing it.
And finally, if it's place-bound, it should only be -3 Refresh, not -4.
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What sort of Elemental sponsored magic would work for something like this? I spent most of last night trying to figure something thematically appropriate and I just couldn't.
I was unclear on whether or not Thaumaturgy specializations still applied when using Evothaum. I erred on the side of caution here. I've never actually seen Evothaum in play as I've only got about 3 sessions under my belt with Fate and we haven't really had to hash everything out in play yet.
I figured that seeing as the Campaign is limited to the city and some limited time in the Nevernever it's not really a meaningful drawback. I mean yes hypothetically it's restrictive but if the restriction doesn't come up in play once is it really worth a rebate?
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What sort of Elemental sponsored magic would work for something like this? I spent most of last night trying to figure something thematically appropriate and I just couldn't.
Well, Sponsored Magic is thematic, not really elemental per se. Seelie Magic is all about light, heat, growth and wildness, Kemmlerian Necromancy is all about the cold void of death, etc.
What thematic domain is granted by this magic? My immediate thought is raw entropy (from the fomor), stasis, and imprisonment. Which is a perfectly valid thematic area.
I was unclear on whether or not Thaumaturgy specializations still applied when using Evothaum. I erred on the side of caution here. I've never actually seen Evothaum in play as I've only got about 3 sessions under my belt with Fate and we haven't really had to hash everything out in play yet.
It's a little unclear...but at least the Control bonus almost certainly applies.
I figured that seeing as the Campaign is limited to the city and some limited time in the Nevernever it's not really a meaningful drawback. I mean yes hypothetically it's restrictive but if the restriction doesn't come up in play once is it really worth a rebate?
I guess if you never leave the city, yeah...but I'd be shocked if they don't ever leave the city limits for anything. Especially once people know about the Sponsored Magic and know they can flee the city to avid it.
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If you're sure the restriction is harsh enough for a reduced price I'll yield to someone who knows more about the game than I do. So something like this is how you would do it?
GIFT OF THE CONFLUX [-3]
Description: Tapping into the Ley-Line construct in Nose Hill Park, you've managed to channel a portion of it's great energy...however now you are bound to be a keeper of that which sleeps beneath.
Sponsor: The Ley-Line Prison that hold a Formorian Giant.
Agenda: The prison was constructed to keep the giant imprisoned, and you are now responsible for keeping the prison secure. Occasional dark impulses favoring the Formor and it's release bubble up...but how bad could it be?
Evocation: The Gift of the Conflux provides the ability to tap into the magic of Stasis and Imprisonment (if drawing upon the ley-lines) or of Entropy and decay (If drawing upon the prisoner).
Thaumaturgy:The Gift of the conflux provides the ability to use Summoning and Binding Thaumaturgy.
Evothaum: Any Thaumaturgy cast with the Gift of the Conflux can be done with the speed and methods of Evocation.
Extra Benefits: The Gift of the Conflux gives a +1 bonus to Complexity and Power for Summoning and Binding.
Restrictions: The benefits of this magic can only be used within the City Limits of Calgary.
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Uh...all canonical Sponsored Magic does Evocation. If it doesn't it's something else.
It doesn't necessarily have to be that way. Kinda surprised to see you say this after you wrote a Sponsored Magic that doesn't do Evocation.
It's a little unclear...but at least the Control bonus almost certainly applies.
It might. It's not even close to certain though.
If you're sure the restriction is harsh enough for a reduced price I'll yield to someone who knows more about the game than I do. So something like this is how you would do it?
GIFT OF THE CONFLUX [-3]
Description: Tapping into the Ley-Line construct in Nose Hill Park, you've managed to channel a portion of it's great energy...however now you are bound to be a keeper of that which sleeps beneath.
Sponsor: The Ley-Line Prison that hold a Formorian Giant.
Agenda: The prison was constructed to keep the giant imprisoned, and you are now responsible for keeping the prison secure. Occasional dark impulses favoring the Formor and it's release bubble up...but how bad could it be?
Evocation: The Gift of the Conflux provides the ability to tap into the magic of Stasis and Imprisonment (if drawing upon the ley-lines) or of Entropy and decay (If drawing upon the prisoner).
Thaumaturgy:The Gift of the conflux provides the ability to use Summoning and Binding Thaumaturgy.
Evothaum: Any Thaumaturgy cast with the Gift of the Conflux can be done with the speed and methods of Evocation.
Extra Benefits: The Gift of the Conflux gives a +1 bonus to Complexity and Power for Summoning and Binding.
Restrictions: The benefits of this magic can only be used within the City Limits of Calgary.
I think Calgary is too large an area. Unless your game leaves the city on a fairly regular basis.
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It doesn't necessarily have to be that way. Kinda surprised to see you say this after you wrote a Sponsored Magic that doesn't do Evocation.
Right...for half cost. If it's full cost, normal, sponsored magic, it does Evocation.
It might. It's not even close to certain though.
Like I said, unclear. :)
I think Calgary is too large an area. Unless your game leaves the city on a fairly regular basis.
I'm not sure I agree. The size of the area seems secondary to the fact that there's an 'off button' for your magic. If people leave the area, you can't use it on them, and you may have to lure people to the area in order to use it.
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In theory, the extra benefits of a Sponsored Magic could be big enough to justify full price.
You said the control bonus almost certainly applies. What I'm saying is, that ain't so. Even that is vague.
If the reason you regularly leave the city is that people draw you out to shut off your magic, that's fine. The point is, a limitation needs to come up in order to provide a rebate.
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In theory, the extra benefits of a Sponsored Magic could be big enough to justify full price.
True...but I'd say such benefits are then well on their way to being an entirely new power only inspired by/based on Sponsored Magic.
You said the control bonus almost certainly applies. What I'm saying is, that ain't so. Even that is vague.
I suppose that's true.
If the reason you regularly leave the city is that people draw you out to shut off your magic, that's fine. The point is, a limitation needs to come up in order to provide a rebate.
I do agree with this, I'm just saying that that's the kind of limitation that should come up regularly. It's possible to play a game where (to take an over-the-top example) cold Iron never shows up...but it certainly should show up in most games, y'know? Especially if someone's vulnerable to it...
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This is the version I am running by my group on Friday. The discount is for the power not providing any form of Evocation. What do people think?
GIFT OF THE CONFLUX [-3]
Description: Tapping into the Ley-Line construct in Nose Hill Park, you've managed to channel a portion of it's great energy...however now you are bound to be a keeper of that which sleeps beneath.
Sponsor: The Ley-Line Prison that hold a Formorian Giant.
Agenda: The prison was constructed to keep the giant imprisoned, and you are now responsible for keeping the prison secure. Occasional dark impulses favoring the Formor and it's release bubble up...but how bad could it be?
Evocation: The Gift of the Conflux provides no Evocation magic.
Thaumaturgy:The Gift of the conflux provides the ability to use Summoning and Binding Thaumaturgy.
Evothaum: Any Thaumaturgy cast with the Gift of the Conflux can be done with the speed and methods of Evocation.
Extra Benefits: The Gift of the Conflux gives a +1 bonus to Complexity and Power for Summoning and Binding. Additionally you may use your specializations when using Summoning and Binding at the speed of evocation.
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If it only provides half the normal bonus (Thaumaturgy but no Evocation) it should only cost half the normal amount (-2 Refresh).
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No, it doesn't quite work like that. A 4 Refresh Power is usually a little more than twice as good as a 2 Refresh one.
And Evocation isn't half of Sponsored Magic's effect...Sponsored Magic generally gives Evocation, Thaumaturgy, Evothaum, and an extra benefit worth around 1 Refresh.
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No, it doesn't quite work like that. A 4 Refresh Power is usually a little more than twice as good as a 2 Refresh one.
That's debatable.
And Evocation isn't half of Sponsored Magic's effect...Sponsored Magic generally gives Evocation, Thaumaturgy, Evothaum, and an extra benefit worth around 1 Refresh.
Uh...check p. 287 of YS, pricing of Sponsored Magic is explicitly the pricing for Channeling + Ritual, with all the extras (which there certainly are) paid for by the fact that you need your Sponsor's support on whatever you're doing for it to work at all.
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If it's a debate, then it's the kind where one side is clearly right.
And yes, I know the book says it's equivalent to taking Channelling and Ritual for 2 Refresh each. But that isn't true, because that isn't how Sponsored Magic actually works. The book contradicts itself. It happens.
The agenda, incidentally, consists of Compels and doesn't affect balance.
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If it's a debate, then it's the kind where one side is clearly right.
Uh...check, say, Inhuman vs. Supernatural Toughness. That's clearly a direct addition.
And yes, I know the book says it's equivalent to taking Channelling and Ritual for 2 Refresh each. But that isn't true, because that isn't how Sponsored Magic actually works. The book contradicts itself. It happens.
No, it really doesn't. It says that Channeling and Ritual are each half of it's cost, which is consistent and makes sense, the additional bonuses are paid for by it's nature as...not entirely under the player's control.
The agenda, incidentally, consists of Compels and doesn't affect balance.
Not entirely it doesn't. Check p. 287 once again, you cannot even cast spells with it that don't align with it's sponsor's agenda, making entire realms of spellcasting off-limits. It's that kind of limitation that pays for it's assorted bonuses. There's also Sponsor Debt...but that's a different thing entirely.
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4 extra stress boxes is more than twice as good as 2. That's why stunts have stacking limitations.
And my reading of that text is that the agenda limits of Sponsored Magic are like the Purpose of a Sword of the Cross. My reading might be biased by the broken-ness of the alternative, I suppose.
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4 extra stress boxes is more than twice as good as 2. That's why stunts have stacking limitations.
Eh. Sometimes. What about the difference in Recovery powers, then? That stacks a lot less directly.
And my reading of that text is that the agenda limits of Sponsored Magic are like the Purpose of a Sword of the Cross. My reading might be biased by the broken-ness of the alternative, I suppose.
How so? The agendas are fairly broad and the magic can thus be used pretty broadly...but not for everything. Any other reading really unbalances things in favor of Sponsored Magic...which hardly needs the help.
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I've found Sponsored Magic pretty balanced by my reading, actually. Certainly more balanced than it would be with a restriction that exists for some characters and not for others.
The standard Ritual/Channelling limitations have generally been enough.
It's true that it's better than Ritual + Channelling, but Ritual and Channelling are suboptimal anyway compared to full spellcasting.
And in my experience Mythic Recovery really is that good. Being able to ignore Severe consequences is incredible.
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So it either costs 3 with a +1 Discount for Thaumaturgy, or it costs 2 with a +1 Discount for Thaumaturgy? But overall there is no debate that it works fine as a sponsored magic?
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Yeah, it's indisputably available. Cost's the argument.
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Yep.
DMW is saying it should cost the same as Ritual because the evothaum and the free specialization bonuses that appear to stack with normal specializations are balanced out by the fact that you'll be unable to use it sometimes.
I'm saying that it should cost more than Ritual because the agenda limitations of this magic are Compels, and Compels are not a bad thing to get so they can't balance anything out.
If you go with DMW's argument you should think of ways for the agenda could prevent the magic from being available.
If you go with mine you should never ever let the agenda do anything mechanical without using the Aspect mechanics.
DMW, if that's not a fair summary feel free to correct it.
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No, that's a fair assessment.
Though I'm still unclear on how you come up with full Channeling being worth only -1 Refresh.
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It's worth 2 Refresh.
But subtracting it from Sponsored Magic doesn't let you have Sponsored Magic for 2 Refresh less. If it did, you could have Sponsored Magic for free by removing the Channelling and the Ritual. Free evothaum!
The cost is different when assessing it as part of a larger Power, because the value is different and the cost should equal the value.
PS: We're assuming that this magic gives only 2 focus slots, right? It occurs to me that that assumption might not be safe.
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It's worth 2 Refresh.
But subtracting it from Sponsored Magic doesn't let you have Sponsored Magic for 2 Refresh less. If it did, you could have Sponsored Magic for free by removing the Channelling and the Ritual. Free evothaum!
Well, point, but you're giving up the ability to take Sponsor Debt on Evocation as well, and item slots (as you note below), and just generally most of the in-combat-time uses of the power (you still have Evothaum).
And really, Evothaum always struck me as kinda like Soulgaze...something that should be a -1 power on it's own but gets reduced to -0 when taken with other powers of an appropriate sort (ie: Sponsored Magic).
The cost is different when assessing it as part of a larger Power, because the value is different and the cost should equal the value.
True...I just disagree on how much of the value is tied up in actually having Evocation abilities.
PS: We're assuming that this magic gives only 2 focus slots, right? It occurs to me that that assumption might not be safe.
I've certainly been assuming it. If it gives 4 it's certainly worth the -3 given how Refinement works.
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I always kind of figured that evothaum is the evocation of sponsored magic. I mean sure you could have a simple thematic element, but the evothaum can technically get you that and anything else you're crazy enough to cook up.
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I always kind of figured that evothaum is the evocation of sponsored magic. I mean sure you could have a simple thematic element, but the evothaum can technically get you that and anything else you're crazy enough to cook up.
Not usually. Something like Warding, Summoning, or Diaboilism isn't usable as an attack, maneuver, or even a conventional block. It does it's own thing, and does it effectively, but it doesn't do actual Evocation.
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So I had a thought in the shower this morning. I was pondering using the Formor in a game and it hit me: The magic could provide Water Evocation. A gift of the Formor wanting to get itself out. The player with it would have to track 2 sets of Sponsor Debt: one for the Ley-Line construct keeping the prisoner in, and one for the Fomorian Giant below. What do people think?
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That'd be fine, and indisputably make it normal cost.
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Even better, don't let the player know that he has two sponsors. At least not right away.
Narratively that's cool, and gives you a good reason to provide a seemingly conflicting agenda. Mechanically I would just roll it all into one Sponsored Magic and have one Debt Pool. Although if you dont mind the hassle of accounting two pools then that's fine too.
If you go the two pool route then it might be interesting to throw in an extra gimmick. Something like the larger debt pool is gaining more influence and power over the world it interacts with via the conduit of the caster. So use too much water evocation with Sponsor debt and maybe the Fomor can make some kind of attack against the prison to try and escape.
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As long as your player is okay with tracking two sets of debt, that oughta be perfectly fine.
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Hey, I'm about to update the Sponsored Magic list. Should I add this? If so, which version of this?
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This is the final version we went with:
GIFT OF THE CONFLUX [-4]
Description: Tapping into the Ley-Line construct in Nose Hill Park, you've managed to channel a portion of it's great energy...however now you are bound to be a keeper of that which sleeps beneath.
Sponsor: The Ley-Line Construct that holds a Formorian Giant.
Agenda: The prison was constructed to keep the giant imprisoned, and you are now responsible for keeping the prison secure. Occasional dark impulses favoring the Formor and it's release bubble up...but how bad could it be?
Evocation: The Gift of the Conflux Water magic in the form of the Formians. This includes magic of the deeps, like pressure as well as basic Water Evocations.
Thaumaturgy:The Gift of the conflux provides the ability to use Summoning and Binding Thaumaturgy.
Evothaum: Any Thaumaturgy cast with the Gift of the Conflux can be done with the speed and methods of Evocation.
Extra Benefits: The Gift of the Conflux gives a +1 bonus to Complexity and Power for Summoning and Binding. Additionally you may use your specializations when using Summoning and Binding at the speed of evocation.
Note: The Gift of the Conflux provides two sources of Sponsor Debt. When incurred using Binding and Summoning powers (at Evocation or Regular speed) debt is accrued with the Ley Line prison. When incurred using the Evocations, debt is accrued with the Formorian giant that is imprisoned.
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I posted revised Sponsored Magics for the next list update. If you could look and tell me whether I screwed anything up, I'd appreciate it.