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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Save_vs_DM on January 06, 2013, 10:40:06 AM
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Long story short, I'm playing a Champion of God and I'm looking to get some use out of my Holy Touch power. The problem is, I have two things working against me. The first is that my character is really liberal Unitarian - about the only things he finds offensive to his faith are Vampires and Demons. The second problem is that so far we have not run into either of these creatures (and it doesn't appear that we'll be doing so any time in the near future).
So, how do I actually get some use out of my power I spent my precious refresh on? What tricks can I pull with it?
And if this power really is useless in this game, does anyone have a suggestion for a power swap?
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Anything with a Holy Stuff Catch definitely applies, so at the very least add Ghouls and probably Outsiders as additional targets.
That said, if none of that stuff ever shows up...yeah, it's a waste. And your GM is being a bad GM, since by having that power (and the Faith powers in general, really) you are basically putting up a giant "Throw Unholy Things At Me!" sign on your forehead both in and out of character. Any GM who isn't taking that invitation isn't doing their job, and is straining the plausibility of the game setting given how Guide My Hand works regarding you being where you are needed.
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That said, if none of that stuff ever shows up...yeah, it's a waste. And your GM is being a bad GM, since by having that power (and the Faith powers in general, really) you are basically putting up a giant "Throw Unholy Things At Me!" sign on your forehead both in and out of character. Any GM who isn't taking that invitation isn't doing their job, and is straining the plausibility of the game setting given how Guide My Hand works regarding you being where you are needed.
I guess I should drop it, then. Though the ironic thing is that we finally encountered some Ghouls - only my CoG is dealing with some Greek thingies with the Scion of Prometheus. Finally a chance to shine and I'm not there. Of course it's kind of a moot point, as I didn't have any space at all to pick up the Fists skill.
So assuming I did drop it, you know any good replacements? I already tried the GM on Sacred Guardian, but he said it was overpowered and only works for Foo Dogs.
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What are your stats? And how much Refresh are you working with?
Depending, you might not need anything, a mortal stunt might be the way to go, or just having some extra Refresh might be cool. Though, on the low Fists thing, them touching you also does them damage, which is enormously cool, since having, say, Ghouls taking stress when they hit you is both useful and funny.
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What are your stats? And how much Refresh are you working with?
Depending, you might not need anything, a mortal stunt might be the way to go, or just having some extra Refresh might be cool. Though, on the low Fists thing, them touching you also does them damage, which is enormously cool, since having, say, Ghouls taking stress when they hit you is both useful and funny.
Whoa, wait, really? You mean it works in reverse? And I don't have to spend a fate point for it. Wow, that's actually really kind of cool!
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If you don't encounter them very often, you might as well drop it, and if you actually need it once in a blue moon, you can spend a fate point to get it as a temporary upgrade.
I've created a defensive power for one of the players in my pbp game, you might be interested in:
The Lord is my shepherd [-1]
Description: As a fighter for the good cause, you are protected by your faith when facing dangers greater than yourself.
Skills affected: none, really
I shall not waver: You may spend a fate point to grant you armor:2 for a scene. This armor can only reduce additional* damage from supernatural sources (eliminating claws and strength powers for the most part, you know: the nasty stuff).
He restores my soul: If you need to take a mental consequence, you may take 1 more shift off the attack than the consequence is usually worth (for example a mild consequence would be worth 3 shifts instead of 2).
*additional means, that it can take away the stress that for example claws would add to an attack. Claws+inhuman strength would add 4 shifts of stress to an attack, with this armor active, it only adds 2. If there is no additional stress from supernatural sources, the armor does nothing. It would not, for example, work against the extra stress a regular old weapon would add to an attack. It also does not work against the surplus of an attack roll. Still good against a lot of bad guys, I think.
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If you don't encounter them very often, you might as well drop it, and if you actually need it once in a blue moon, you can spend a fate point to get it as a temporary upgrade.
I've created a defensive power for one of the players in my pbp game, you might be interested in:
The Lord is my shepherd [-1]
Description: As a fighter for the good cause, you are protected by your faith when facing dangers greater than yourself.
Skills affected: none, really
I shall not waver: You may spend a fate point to grant you armor:2 for a scene. This armor can only reduce additional* damage from supernatural sources (eliminating claws and strength powers for the most part, you know: the nasty stuff).
He restores my soul: If you need to take a mental consequence, you may take 1 more shift off the attack than the consequence is usually worth (for example a mild consequence would be worth 3 shifts instead of 2).
*additional means, that it can take away the stress that for example claws would add to an attack. Claws+inhuman strength would add 4 shifts of stress to an attack, with this armor active, it only adds 2. If there is no additional stress from supernatural sources, the armor does nothing. It would not, for example, work against the extra stress a regular old weapon would add to an attack. It also does not work against the surplus of an attack roll. Still good against a lot of bad guys, I think.
I actually suggested a similar power (actually it only gave Armor:2) and the GM turned that one down. I'm very probably limited to official sources only.
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Yeah, it's a cool trick. It is based on the Red Court in Grave Peril burning when they touch Michael's shoulder after all, so yeah, it works without active intervention on your part. Though they wouldn't take it if using weapons or some such since they nee to touch you.
And it's still not worth it if it never comes up. Though on Haru's point, I'll note that I certainly don't let PCs just pay FP for temporary powers without serious magic or very specific situations being involved, and I think many GMs feel likewise.
So...stats? Again, can't give you good advice on what to grab without context.
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Skills
Superb (+5): Conviction
Great (+4): Investigation, Weapons
Good (+3): Empathy, Endurance, Presence, Rapport
Fair (+2): Alertness, Athletics, Contacts, Lore
Average (+1): Discipline, Guns, Resources, [ooc=Scholarship]English, German[/ooc]
Stunts
Leadership (Presence)
Riposte (Weapons)
Scene of the Crime (Investigation)
Powers
[-0] Bless This House (housed Application of Righteousness extra brings it to a +0 because the GM never uses it).
[-1] Guide My Hand
[-1] Holy Touch
[-2] Righteousness
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Hmmm. Footwork ala the Fists Stunt but for Weapons is probably the most powerful defensive ability you could grab for 1 Refresh, so I recommend that. Another option would be one or more conviction stunts, of which there are several potentially good and useful ones available.
I'd probably stick with stunts rather than powers for the time being.
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I might just leave the Refresh open. With Guide My Hand and Righteousness you'll be needing FP.
The Lord is my shepherd [-1]
Description: As a fighter for the good cause, you are protected by your faith when facing dangers greater than yourself.
Skills affected: none, really
I shall not waver: You may spend a fate point to grant you armor:2 for a scene. This armor can only reduce additional* damage from supernatural sources (eliminating claws and strength powers for the most part, you know: the nasty stuff).
He restores my soul: If you need to take a mental consequence, you may take 1 more shift off the attack than the consequence is usually worth (for example a mild consequence would be worth 3 shifts instead of 2).
Hey, I haven't seen that one before. It's not on the list.
Mind if I add it?
PS: Does the armour stack?
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Of course you can put it on the list. I've only used that power in my pbp and not very excessive there, and I didn't think of putting it in the custom power thread.
I kind of thought it to stack. I wanted the "I shall not waver" part work as a reverse acaebg. Where acaebg reduces the toughness power of a creature, isnw is supposed to reduce the strength power or take claws out of the equation. So if something with supernatural strength attacks you, it can only add as much stress, as if it had inhuman strength. Supernatural strength + claws? Reduced to inhuman + claws or supernatural strength.
Calling it armor seemed to be a good choice, since it is a defensive thing, but I was never really happy with that wording. If you like to do a rewording, I would not mind, you are better at it than I am.
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I would suggest that if it is intended to stack with other sources of armour then it requires explicit wording to that effect.
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Armour is a good way to describe that effect, but since armour doesn't normally stack the exception should be noted. As Tedronai said.
Anyway, I'll add such a note. Wording looks fine otherwise.
PS: I've been considering a consequence-strengthening Power/houserule for high-powered games, since 2/4/6/8 is pretty feeble when weapon 8 is common. Your Power reminded me of that.
How much Refresh would you say it's worth to multiply the value of each consequence by 1.5 or 2? And should that cost get bigger for people with extra consequences?
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PS: I've been considering a consequence-strengthening Power/houserule for high-powered games, since 2/4/6/8 is pretty feeble when weapon 8 is common. Your Power reminded me of that.
How much Refresh would you say it's worth to multiply the value of each consequence by 1.5 or 2? And should that cost get bigger for people with extra consequences?
I'd say -2 Refresh for normal Consequence Value x1.5 (3/6/9/12), or -4 Refresh for Value x2 (4/8/12/16), and keep the same pricing whether or not the character has extra consequences. I'd also suggest folding this power into the Toughness/Recovery suite as a third option that can also be discounted by a Catch.
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That seems too cheap to me. In many ways, it's the same as 10 extra Stress Boxes usable for any type of Conflict even at the 1.5 version, and 20 of those for the higher version. It's not quite that good...but it is a really hefty benefit, more so than, say, Inhuman Toughness.
I'd go -3 for the lower version, -6 for the higher. Folding them into the Catch might be workable...but also might defeat the whole purpose of having them. I dunno. I agree that they shouldn't cost more just for having more Consequences, though.
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That seems too cheap to me. In many ways, it's the same as 10 extra Stress Boxes usable for any type of Conflict even at the 1.5 version, and 20 of those for the higher version. It's not quite that good...but it is a really hefty benefit, more so than, say, Inhuman Toughness.
I'd go -3 for the lower version, -6 for the higher. Folding them into the Catch might be workable...but also might defeat the whole purpose of having them. I dunno. I agree that they shouldn't cost more just for having more Consequences, though.
You could look at them as extra Stress Boxes, but they still "clear" as Consequences, not automatically at the end of combat like the bonus Boxes from Inhuman Toughness. -3/-6 seems a bit much for a power that only does anything when you're taking Consequences, though in fairness, I have to admit that the synergy with Recovery is a big deal.
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Sure they don't clear...but they do when the Consequence does (something PCs want anyway), and they're usable for any kind of Conflict. Two Stress Boxes for one kind of conflict seem worth about a Refresh based on Toughness Powers, 10 for one kind would thus be -5, and 10 for any would thus be what, -6 or -7 Refresh if allowed? Half that seems a reasonable price considering the downsides. A third? Starting to get less reasonable, particularly considering the synergy you mention.
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Sure they don't clear...but they do when the Consequence does (something PCs want anyway), and they're usable for any kind of Conflict. Two Stress Boxes for one kind of conflict seem worth about a Refresh based on Toughness Powers, 10 for one kind would thus be -5, and 10 for any would thus be what, -6 or -7 Refresh if allowed? Half that seems a reasonable price considering the downsides. A third? Starting to get less reasonable, particularly considering the synergy you mention.
Ok, I think I could be talked into -3/-6 as a better price, with the stipulations that extra Consequences from other sources don't change the price, and the Refresh cost may be discounted by a Catch.
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-3/-6, eh? Sounds workable, maybe a bit high. I'm kinda tempted to go with -3/-5, since Powers tend to get more efficient as they get more expensive.
Of course, maybe playtesting will reveal that that's a bad cost. But it's not a bad place to start.
On a related note, if you were going to give those Powers out for free to sufficiently powerful characters, how would you go about it? I'm considering x1.5 for free at 40/13 and x2 for free at 50/21. Because I think the game flows better when consequences are pretty powerful.
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I don't know, the cost seems extreme. Then again, coupled with a recovery power, it will be extremely powerful to the point of being broken. +1 stress per consequence is a nice edge, but I would not go for much more. And I'd probably be careful to do it for physical stress as well. That's what the toughness powers are for.
If you want to grant more powerful consequences to more powerful characters, I'd rather grant more of them than upgrading the existing ones. Maybe an additional mild one for every 2 refresh above 10, a medium consequence for every 4 shifts, severe for 6 and extreme for 8. That would give you more survivability, while being granular enough to not be a waste too often. Also, it will come with more consequence aspects, that can be used in the conflict, which is a double etched blade, but yeah for those. Maybe with the caveat, that you can only use one of each type of consequence per attack, so you don't just soak up everything in minor consequences and shake them off after the fight.
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If giving them out, I'd probably give the '-3' version out at 17 or 18 Refresh and the '-6' version out at 25 (and giving them out at such times does seem appropriate-ish)...but a more optimized group might need them sooner. 13 Refresh is way too low, though. Maybe more like 15.
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Soaking a large hit entirely with multiple minor consequences is incredibly dangerous if you're not confident that you can end the fight on your turn. Each one of those minor consequences comes with a tag, after all, and so really just delays the stress (and possibly the resulting take-out) by a single exchange. And that's assuming that those tags are not used to invoke-for-effect in a way that leads to even more badness headed your way.
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Granting more consequences would only make worse the "take three consequences to absorb an average hit" issue. I'd really rather increase the value of each consequence, especially when I consider the power of tags.
In a normal game the 8 shifts of an extreme consequence are a big deal. But when people use weapon 11 attacks casually, 8 shifts seems a bit puny.
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Granting more consequences would only make worse the "take three consequences to absorb an average hit" issue. I'd really rather increase the value of each consequence, especially when I consider the power of tags.
Yeah, I'm in agreement herew. More Consequences don't really help.
In a normal game the 8 shifts of an extreme consequence are a big deal. But when people use weapon 11 attacks casually, 8 shifts seems a bit puny.
In fairness, you should mostly have some armor and possibly a hefty number of stress boxes by that level. An 11 Stress Hit vs. a guy with Armor 5 is only 6 stress and the same against a guy with Armor 3 and 10 Stress Boxes is only the equivalent of a 2 stress hit on someone with 4 stress bixes and no armor.
That said, yeah, it can get a bit ridiculous, when you get right down to it.
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And it's still not worth it if it never comes up. Though on Haru's point, I'll note that I certainly don't let PCs just pay FP for temporary powers without serious magic or very specific situations being involved, and I think many GMs feel likewise.
I forgot that I wanted to address this earlier. I think it is not too much of a stretch for a true believer to take up a true believer power as a temporary upgrade. I would let you do it like this, if the power got so little use, so you could get a bit more use out of the fate point the free refresh would get you, and if there is a way to use it every now and again, I'd just let you take it then and there. Just seems like the easiest and fairest way to handle this.
Granting more consequences would only make worse the "take three consequences to absorb an average hit" issue. I'd really rather increase the value of each consequence, especially when I consider the power of tags.
In a normal game the 8 shifts of an extreme consequence are a big deal. But when people use weapon 11 attacks casually, 8 shifts seems a bit puny.
Ok, good point. Yeah, it does seem a bit weak, compared to that. In that case, I would probably go with a gradual upgrade, rather than 2 big ones.
Adding 1 shift to each consequence every two refresh over ten, gradually building up to the x1.5, x2 points. Like this:
10: 2/4/6/8
12: 3/5/7/9
14: 3/6/8/10
16: 3/6/9/11
18: 3/6/9/12 (that's full x1.5)
20: 4/7/10/13
22: 4/8/11/14
24: 4/8/12/15
26: 4/8/12/16 (full x2)
28: 5/9/12/17
30: 5/10/13/18
32: 5/10/14/19
34: 5/10/15/20 (full x2.5)
and so forth.
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I forgot that I wanted to address this earlier. I think it is not too much of a stretch for a true believer to take up a true believer power as a temporary upgrade. I would let you do it like this, if the power got so little use, so you could get a bit more use out of the fate point the free refresh would get you, and if there is a way to use it every now and again, I'd just let you take it then and there. Just seems like the easiest and fairest way to handle this.
I might allow this specific example (and definitely allow a Chengeling-style "You can take this power permanently at any time." thing), I was just noting that many GMs might not, and were well within their rights to not, so checking with the GM would be an excellent idea if attempting to do this.
Ok, good point. Yeah, it does seem a bit weak, compared to that. In that case, I would probably go with a gradual upgrade, rather than 2 big ones.
Adding 1 shift to each consequence every two refresh over ten, gradually building up to the x1.5, x2 points. Like this:
10: 2/4/6/8
12: 3/5/7/9
14: 3/6/8/10
16: 3/6/9/11
18: 3/6/9/12 (that's full x1.5)
20: 4/7/10/13
22: 4/8/11/14
24: 4/8/12/15
26: 4/8/12/16 (full x2)
28: 5/9/12/17
30: 5/10/13/18
32: 5/10/14/19
34: 5/10/15/20 (full x2.5)
and so forth.
This is an excellent implementation. I endorse it whole-heartedly if going with this idea.
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Adding 1 shift to each consequence every two refresh over ten, gradually building up to the x1.5, x2 points. Like this:
10: 2/4/6/8
12: 3/5/7/9
14: 3/6/8/10
16: 3/6/9/11
18: 3/6/9/12 (that's full x1.5)
20: 4/7/10/13
22: 4/8/11/14
24: 4/8/12/15
26: 4/8/12/16 (full x2)
28: 5/9/12/17
30: 5/10/13/18
32: 5/10/14/19
34: 5/10/15/20 (full x2.5)
and so forth.
This may be a bit nit-picky, but your progression is a little bursty at 12/20/28/etc. A smoother progression might look more like this:
10: 2/4/6/8
12: 2/5/7/9
14: 3/5/8/10
16: 3/6/8/11
18: 3/6/9/12 (x1.5)
20: 3/7/10/13
22: 4/7/11/14
24: 4/8/11/15
26: 4/8/12/16 (x2)
28: 4/9/13/17
30: 5/9/14/18
32: 5/10/14/19
34: 5/10/15/20 (x2.5)
etc.
Each x0.5 increment increases the total shift value of your baseline Consequences by 10. In the above progression, you gain those 10 shifts across 8 Refresh as +3/+3/+2/+2, rather than +4/+3/+2/+1. (For an even smoother +3/+2/+3/+2, delay the Mild boost by one step.)
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Each x0.5 increment increases the total shift value of your baseline Consequences by 10. In the above progression, you gain those 10 shifts across 8 Refresh as +3/+3/+2/+2, rather than +4/+3/+2/+1. (For an even smoother +3/+2/+3/+2, delay the Mild boost by one step.)
Good catch. Though there is a pretty steep jump in deadliness from 10 to 12 refresh already, so I feel jump in the consequence upgrade is at a good place as well. But this is probably something that would have to be playtested to get a better feel for.