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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: johntfs on December 25, 2012, 06:35:34 AM
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Whenever an RPG is modeled after another work, as the DFRPG is, one of tests it must satisfy is: Does the game accurately model the common events and situations that occur within the context of the original work? For the most part this game succeed in that. However, I find that it falls down somewhat in terms of "The Catch" the required vulnerability that balances Toughness related powers.
As worded a "Catch" is something that bypasses a being's supernatural defenses to inflict injury upon him or her. A werewolf shot with a silver bullet will tend to take far more damage than one shot with a normal bullet. Not only that, the wounds of a silver bullet are not affected by the werewolf's supernatural ability to recover. Thus, a werewolf will take longer to heal the consequence of being shot by silver. So far, so good.
The problems comes when the "Catch" seems to do far than simply act as an equalizing vulnerability. Consider the White Court vampires and their Catch of True Love. In Book 6 Thomas Raith tells Harry about this weakness and describes a situation in which Lara is so badly burned by a wedding ring that it left a permanent scar on her hand. Note the context here. Lara wasn't slapped by a person wearing the ring in a damaging attack. The ring was presumably an object that Lara picked up. Furthermore, we get a demonstration of the full effects of Love in Book 11. When Justine kisses Madeline and sweeps her hair down Madeline's body, Harry describes the effect as being similar to a strong acid being poured on her skin. Finally, along with dealing actual damage, Love makes a person immune to a White Court vampire's greatest power, the ability to induce specific emotion in their prey and use those emotions to feed upon their victim's life force. That's not a Catch. That's a net made from fishhooks and barbed wire.
So, I would recommend introducing an upgraded version of the Catch called a Bane. Banes are built much in the same way as Catches in terms of the availability and secrecy of the Bane. Banes have other aspects depending on what they do. A Bane that disables or provides immunity to powers worth a fourth or less than a character's modified Refresh cost for that suite of powers(1) or less is worth 0 points. One that disables or provides immunity to powers with at least half Refresh cost for the suite is worth +1. One that disables or provides immunity to at least three-quarters of a suite's supernatural abilities is worth +2. Note that since a Bane is already a Catch, Toughness Powers aside from Immunity to Damage are not considered part of a power suite's refresh cost A Bane may also have a damaging aspect, the strength of which is determined in the same way as the disabling effect was with the modified Refresh rolled as an attack against the target's Endurance with the modified Refresh as damage (or even damage modifier).
Example: Kevin, a former Changeling who Chose to be human, is being chased by a couple of Winter Sidhe who some payback for things he did before his Choice. The Sidhe have Glamour(-2), Inhuman Speed(-2), Strength (-2), Toughness(-2) and Recovery(-2) for a total modified Refresh of (-6) and they have both a Power Loss and Damage Bane to Iron/Steel. Kevin ducks into a chop shop with the two Fae in pursuit. As they enter, Kevin a can of nuts and bolts and hurls the contents at them. The second Fae dodges back, but the first is hit. Normally, this tactic would at be a maneuver or distraction, but these are Fae and their Bane is iron. So, not only does Kevin get the benefit of the maneuver, he cause Fae 1 to temporarily lose his powers and applies a Damage 6 hit plus Shifts. Fae 1, shrieking and blistering, flees. Which gives Kevin time to grab his trusty crowbar and swing it at Fae 2. Successful strikes with this weapon will be Damage 8 (Weapon 2 plus Bane damage 6) and will apply consequences of Power loss. Assuming he survives, Fae 2 will probably rethink coming after Kevin again. Directly, anyway...
The final aspect of a Bane is Range. If a Bane is only effective if deliberately deployed as a maneuver or weapon, its worth is 0. If it's effective in melee range (touch or up to five feet) it's worth +1. It's it's effective up to 60 feet or so, it's +2.
There is one other consideration for Bane and that is the Bane Limit. It should be obvious that someone could use the Bane rules to put together a ridiculously large Refresh cost break and build characters far in excess of a campaign's normal refresh limits. The potential Refresh rebate for the Fae in the above example would be +10 (+2 for common item; +1 for research needed (Fae aren't quite as well known as werewolves and vampires); +2 for Power Loss (Fae lose most their non-human powers at the touch of iron); +2 for damage (iron hurts a lot); and +1 for range (it does, however, still have to touch them to be effective). The Bane Limit is the (Refresh Cost of a power suite's abilities - (bonuses for other limitations (human form, feeding dependency) + Toughness powers))/2 rounding down. For our Fae up there that would be a 3. The total Refresh cost is 10. Subtracting Recovery and Toughness yields 6. 6 divided by 2 is 3. Which doesn't seem like a lot considering the ways in which iron can screw these Fae up.
The thing to remember is that characters change a grow . Suppose our Fae improves his Glamor to Greater Glamor, a -2 Refresh cost. With that ability, his Bane Limit grows to 4 (Refresh cost - toughness)/2. Thus a 1 point increase in Refresh could allow our Fae to effectively gain a 2 Refresh cost ability. Note as well that Banes can increase. Perhaps a Changeling with a simple Catch of iron could see that Catch become a nasty bane as he gains more and more power of the Fae, becoming more sensitive to Iron as he grows less and less human.
A character can have multiple Banes, but just like Catches, only the most potent give a Refresh break. Multiple Banes can, however, be quite useful as potential Compels, especially for those who like to live close to the Refresh edge and need those extra Fate points.
(1) A Power suite is a set of powers linked to a particular High Concept like Changeling, Werewolf, White Court Vampire, etc. Suppose Billy the Werewolf had a total Power Loss Bane to Silver. Suppose further that some bizarre circumstance caused him to be gifted (cursed?) with The Sight(-1) and Soulgazing. If Billy were shot by a silver bullet he would immediately transform to his human form and not even have his increased sensory perception (Echoes of the Beast) until the bullet was removed. He would, however, still have The Sight/Sougazing because those are not part of the werewolf power suite.
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This doesn't seem necessary. Some Catches doing constant damage is already a built in possibility (ala sunlight for the Red Court). And any additional badness can easily be reflected by compels or enemy invokes of their High Concept. That is one of the things it's for, after all.
And you're exaggerating the degree of immunity you get from White Court powers due to True Love. Harry still gets effected quite a bit even in, say, Blood Rites where he's got a fair amount of that protection going. It helps, and it burns them, but it does not equal full immunity.
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The True Love Catch burning the White Court is meant to be modelled as a compel. Ditto for sunlight and faith for Black Court, iron for faeries, and similar occurences. Oh, and what Dead Man said, I suppose.
That said, I kinda like the idea of Banes. Have you looked at the Limitation and Potent Catch custom powers?
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Damage Banes seem a bit problematic to me. All rebate Powers in this game work by limiting other Powers, and I'm not sure I'd want to change that.
But I definitely like the idea of Catches for non-Toughness Powers. I'm a Limitation fan, after all.
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I've been wondering how to pull off the "Repelled by Garlic and Crosses" for Black Court Vamps.
So it would be a Compel of their High Concept, which would therefore require either a Fate Point or a Maneuver?
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I've been wondering how to pull off the "Repelled by Garlic and Crosses" for Black Court Vamps.
So it would be a Compel of their High Concept, which would therefore require either a Fate Point or a Maneuver?
Or a Lore Declaration or something, but yeah, basically.
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The problem I have with these Catches being Compels is the choice factor. If my character gets shot by a gun, I can't just hand the GM a Fate point and say "I don't want to take damage from this." And yet, if a Black Court vampire gets kicked into the noonday sun, they can apparently do just that.
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Not exactly. First off, NPCs who are slaves to their nature (aka Black and red Court Vampires, actual Fae, etc.) can't do that since they lack Fate Points. An important and valid distinction. A creature with Free Will can fight against it's banes...one without it cannot.
Second, NPCs only buy off Compels if the GM deems that thematically appropriate. How often is that gonna happen with this kind of thing? Probably not very, even for those monsters with FP.
Third, assuming they do buy it off, it's not necessarily that the garlic or whatever doesn't effect them, it's that it effecting them doesn't have negative repercussions for them (they get out of the sun before taking damage,the holy water you got was fake, etc.), which is very justifiable much of the time.
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Deadmanwalking said more or less what I planned to... the BCV can't avoid being driven back by garlic/crosses because he doesn't have a Fate Point to spend. Whereas if Thomas (a positive-refresh White Court Vampire) touches a True Love object, he can spend a fate point to endure it and not recoil/be driven back/etc.
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The problem I have with these Catches being Compels is the choice factor. If my character gets shot by a gun, I can't just hand the GM a Fate point and say "I don't want to take damage from this." And yet, if a Black Court vampire gets kicked into the noonday sun, they can apparently do just that.
In addition to the point in re who has Fate points to spend, consider that there are many ways to refuse a compel. If your sunlight-vulnerable character would be booted into sunlight and burn, refusing that compel doesn't mean you're walking in bright daylight with no problems; it means that by your good fortune, you were thrown under an awning or otherwise are shielded well enough to take no lasting harm from your brief exposure.
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My character is a human. His nature, physically, at least, is to be a soft-skinned bag of blood, bones and meat. Due to that nature he is generally compelled to be injured if he is struck by a swiftly-moving chunk of metal that is fired from a gun. So can I then invoke my nature as a human to claim that the gun misfired or the bullet was somehow a blank?
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Yes. Thats what Declarations are set up to do.
For instance: the guy has a gun, make a declaration with your gun skill to say, notice that the revolver he is holding has an empty chamber. If you succeed on the roll (probably a 4 or 6) but you can also spend a fate point for it, the next chamber fired is blank and you get to tag the aspect "Missing Shot" or whatever and get a +2 to your attack because they are confused or +2 to defense because they shot two rounds but one was empty. Either way.
aditionally you could do the same thing but with an aspect taging your aspect to know that AK-47's jam a lot and thus that it is possible.
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Also, we were talking about when the Catch is used for more than just damage on an attack. That's when Compels really come in. You want to Self-Compel as a mortal to lose outright in contests against supernaturals, that's valid, as is the GM doing so if, say, your Superb Might Mortal is trying to wrestle a Fair Might Black Court vampire. Sure, by the rules, you've got good odds, but thematically, he's got Supernatural Strength, so a compel to make you lose is a definite possibility.
That's when this sort of thing comes up, more than direct damage.
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Due to that nature he is generally compelled to be injured if he is struck by a swiftly-moving chunk of metal that is fired from a gun.
That seems like a really lame Compel. But if you're hit with that Compel, you can totally refuse it with a Fate Point (no invoke required).
Refusing the Compel means that the bullet misses or misfires or somehow doesn't cause any meaningful trouble for you.
PS: I'd expect a Superb mortal wrestler to beat a stronger-but-less-skilled vampire at wrestling. Strength is just one part of what it takes to win a grapple.
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PS: I'd expect a Superb mortal wrestler to beat a stronger-but-less-skilled vampire at wrestling. Strength is just one part of what it takes to win a grapple.
And the rules support you. I was listing it as an option for a Compel to emphasize the sheer power of a Black Courtier (I was just reading 'It's My Birthday, Too' and a very young Black Courtier moves so fast it snaps a man's neck from whiplash, another breaks someone's ankle with their involuntary twitching as their arm is hurt while holding said ankle), one that could be refused and still beat the guy.
Some GMs might not do it (hell, I usually wouldn't), but it seems a viable option.
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How exactly does one determine damage from various Compels? It strikes me that a White Court vampire touching a wedding ring is probably going to take less damage from that than a Black Court vampire who gets shoved into the noonday sunlight or smacked in the face by a holy water balloon?
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Again, just taking damage from a Catch isn't usually a Compel, and seems to usually inflict either standard attack damage (maybe with a Weapon rating of some sort) if they're an attack or one stress per turn as per Environmental Effects if that's what they are (ala sunlight). Compels/invokes for effect mostly come in when things other than damage happen (being repelled by crosses or garlic for example).
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How exactly does one determine damage from various Compels?
Compels are negotiable. Any damage (more likely a consequence) resulting from one depends on what the table thinks appropriate.
One group may decide the Black Court elder can handle enough sunlight to take nothing more than a mild consequence. Another may decide he takes no damage as long as he uses both hands to hold a coat between him and the sun. Someone else may decide a ring passed through generations inflicts a severe consequence on the WCV. It's all negotiable. ;)
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Again, just taking damage from a Catch isn't usually a Compel, and seems to usually inflict either standard attack damage (maybe with a Weapon rating of some sort) if they're an attack or one stress per turn as per Environmental Effects if that's what they are (ala sunlight).
If you're subject to a special hazard that nobody else is subject to because of your character concept, though, then that probably ought to be a Compel. You deserve some compensation for adding a vulnerability to your character, and The Catch doesn't suffice if the thing hurting you wouldn't normally be a threat.
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If you're subject to a special hazard that nobody else is subject to because of your character concept, though, then that probably ought to be a Compel. You deserve some compensation for adding a vulnerability to your character, and The Catch doesn't suffice if the thing hurting you wouldn't normally be a threat.
Yeah, probably, but that's a Compel for the Catch showing up at all, more than it is for taking damage from it per se. A Changeling attacked by a bunch of folks with iron weapons probably gets a Compel for that whether he takes any damage or not. You certainly don't get one FP per hit or anything.
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You don't get paid for individual attacks with weapons satisfying your catch because you've already been paid in Refresh.
You do get paid in that example for the group of enemies showing up if they are new opposition that's being introduced by the compel, not if they're previously introduced opposition that is merely 'showing up' in the scene.
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Again, just taking damage from a Catch isn't usually a Compel, and seems to usually inflict either standard attack damage (maybe with a Weapon rating of some sort) if they're an attack or one stress per turn as per Environmental Effects if that's what they are (ala sunlight). Compels/invokes for effect mostly come in when things other than damage happen (being repelled by crosses or garlic for example).
Which is where we're kind of circling back around to the reason I introduced Banes in the first place.
To me, a Catch is an equalizer. A supernatural being hit with its Catch will take damage like a regular mortal and heal from that damage just as slowly as a mortal. Compels from Catches take the form of "Oh, crap, he's got iron/garlic/silver. He could actually hurt me with that."
Banes are the next level of that. A Bane doesn't just equalize a conflict, it tips the conflict in favor of the wielder of the Bane. Think of a mortal with a sword fighting a Black Court Vampire. At that level, all else being equal, figure the mortal is probably in trouble. Suppose the fight (taking place in a mall) ends up near a pizzaria and the mortal smears his sword with garlic. Suddenly things become a little more equal because while the vamp can hurt the mortal, the mortal now has a much better chance of hurting the vamp as well. Now suppose that a certain wizard's spells has a little too much umph to it and it burns the roof off the building letting sunlight blaze into every corner of the place. Now, not only is the vamp fighting a mortal who can hurt him (because Banes are also Catches and negate the effects of toughness powers), he's having to do while on fire and burning to ash.
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It's not a stupid idea, but it would be very difficult to implement correctly.
Because DFRPG basically doesn't do negative abilities. Every rebate-granting Power works by modifying another Power to make it less good.
So you're proposing the addition of something really new to the game. And it's something that, in other games, has often been done badly.
I'm not optimistic about your chances of getting Banes to work well.
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While they're new to the game, Banes aren't new to the world. We see Harry employing Banes against various beings quite often. If Harry can burn a Black Court vampire's face off with a balloon full of holy water, the players in the game should reasonably be able to do the same thing.
That said, what do you think of the Bane system I proposed. I tried to build it in such a way that it could be applied to player-level characters but wouldn't overbalance them. I don't want to create something like:
Player 1: I'm playing a Clued-in Mortal Cop
Player 2: I'm playing Summer Changeling
Player 3: I'm playing a novice wizard
Player 4: I'm playing a Master Black Court vampire with Kemmlerian necromancy, but don't worry, I've got a lot of Banes.
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Honestly, I don't like your rules.
Partly because I'm not sure I understand them. Partly because their damaging effect is mixed in with a Power-disabling effect. Partly because the process through which they inflict damage seems oddly convoluted. And partly because their costing method seems complicated and sloppy to me.
I'd go with something like:
BANE [+varies]
Description: There exists something that hurts you. Maybe you're a vampire that can't stand the sun or something.
Musts: If you have a Toughness Power, you must have a Catch or Limitation that prevents that Power from working against the effects of this Power.
Skills Affected: Endurance.
Effects:
Bane. Pick a thing. Then pick a number X. You get a Refresh rebate according to a formula that takes into account X and how often you will face that thing.
Increased Damage. Any physical attack that makes use of your bane adds X to its weapon rating. An attack which uses it especially strongly add 2X to its weapon rating instead, while an attack which uses it especially weakly adds X/2 to its weapon rating instead.
Hostile Environment. When you are exposed to an environment which contains a small amount of your bane, you face an accuracy X weapon 0 physical attack against your Endurance each exchange. Environments which contain moderate amounts of your bane and large amounts of your bane inflict accuracy 2X and 3X attacks respectively. Being totally immersed in your bane inflicts an accuracy 4X attack.
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Honestly, I don't like your rules.
Partly because I'm not sure I understand them. Partly because their damaging effect is mixed in with a Power-disabling effect. Partly because the process through which they inflict damage seems oddly convoluted. And partly because their costing method seems complicated and sloppy to me.
Yeah, it was kind of complicated and sloppy. My idea was to simulate various types of damage and power loss effects. A Power loss Bane might be running water for wizards and other magic-users. It doesn't really a wizard to be in running water (aside from the chance of catching a cold) but it prevents them from using their magic. A damaging Bane might be sunlight or holy water for vampires. Meanwhile Krytonite would be a Bane inflicting both damage and power loss.
I'd go with something like:[/quote]
BANE [+varies]
Description: There exists something that hurts you. Maybe you're a vampire that can't stand the sun or something.
Musts: If you have a Toughness Power, you must have a Catch or Limitation that prevents that Power from working against the effects of this Power.
Skills Affected: Endurance.
Effects:
Bane. Pick a thing. Then pick a number X. You get a Refresh rebate according to a formula that takes into account X and how often you will face that thing.
Increased Damage. Any physical attack that makes use of your bane adds X to its weapon rating. An attack which uses it especially strongly add 2X to its weapon rating instead, while an attack which uses it especially weakly adds X/2 to its weapon rating instead.
Hostile Environment. When you are exposed to an environment which contains a small amount of your bane, you face an accuracy X weapon 0 physical attack against your Endurance each exchange. Environments which contain moderate amounts of your bane and large amounts of your bane inflict accuracy 2X and 3X attacks respectively. Being totally immersed in your bane inflicts an accuracy 4X attack.
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Under Musts, I'd note that a Catch is essentially a Bane where X is 0. By definition all Catches are Banes. I'd also note that the modifiers for ease of acquisition and secrecy that are applied to Catches should also be available for Banes.
Finally, just as a general thing, I'd point out that Banes are one of the few, if any, Refresh cost break modifiers that should be available to Pure Mortals. A Bane could be used to simulate a person who has allergies to certain foods or insect venom. Or a Bane could represent a person with some other health issue that places them at greater risk. A person running into a burning, smoke-filled building to save a child is at risk. If that person has emphysema, cystic fibrosous or other lung disease, that risk is far greater.
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I'd also note that the modifiers for ease of acquisition and secrecy that are applied to Catches should also be available for Banes.
Such concerns are inherent factors to the question of 'how often will you face that thing?' upon which the discount for this proposed Bane would be based.
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Such concerns are inherent factors to the question of 'how often will you face that thing?' upon which the discount for this proposed Bane would be based.
Precisely.
Under Musts, I'd note that a Catch is essentially a Bane where X is 0.
No it isn't. The mechanical effect is completely different.
Narratively Banes and Catches will often be the same, but mechanically they differ greatly.
Yeah, it was kind of complicated and sloppy. My idea was to simulate various types of damage and power loss effects. A Power loss Bane might be running water for wizards and other magic-users. It doesn't really a wizard to be in running water (aside from the chance of catching a cold) but it prevents them from using their magic.
Have you seen the Limitation custom Power?
Finally, just as a general thing, I'd point out that Banes are one of the few, if any, Refresh cost break modifiers that should be available to Pure Mortals. A Bane could be used to simulate a person who has allergies to certain foods or insect venom. Or a Bane could represent a person with some other health issue that places them at greater risk. A person running into a burning, smoke-filled building to save a child is at risk. If that person has emphysema, cystic fibrosous or other lung disease, that risk is far greater.
Eh, maybe. I'd rather use Aspects for mortal weaknesses. People with nut allergies generally don't face peanut bullets or enemies who fill their fortresses with cashew dust. So the need for a Power is less.
Bane. Pick a thing. Then pick a number X. You get a Refresh rebate according to a formula that takes into account X and how often you will face that thing.
Does anyone have any suggestions on what that formula should look like?
PS: I still like the "all rebates are from Power-modifiers" paradigm, so I probably won't use Bane when I play. Still going to try and get it right, though.
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I have no idea whether or not it is balanced, but as far as providing a starting point, I would suggest importing the frequency chart from Limitation and applying the accompanying fractions to X to determine the rebate.
Modify for balance from there.
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If we just use X(Limitation Multiplier) for the rebate, then a BCV or a faerie can get 1 Refresh for X = 2. A demon or a werewolf can get 1 Refresh for X = 4. And a White Court Vampire or a Kryptonian can get 1 Refresh for X = 6.
That actually sounds appropriate-ish to me. Might get silly if X gets really big, though. Perhaps the rebate should be limited to +2.
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Well, if we're going with the 'how often will this matter to this particular character', then we can't so much go with those hard numbers, now can we?
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No, but I think those numbers ought to be good averages for the given character types.