You don't even need the pre-established sponsor to be able to do this.*checks*
After that, any Aspects you get for it can be applied to paying for any powers granted.
I was going to say this in the other thread, but...I'm not so sure about that. The temporary Powers rules say that you have to spend Fate Points, not tags. Page 283 strongly implies that you can use tags, but...I hesitate to take that implication as a statement because a tag is nowhere near equal in value to a Fate Point.I concur, you can use tags to do your ritual, but for taking powers, you'll have to use fate points. And they always last one scene, regardless of how much shifts you put into duration in the ritual. Of course you can have your spell last longer and use it as justification on multiple accounts, but you'll have to spend the whole amount of fate points for the temporary powers you want for each scene you want to use them.
I don't do the whole Word Of God thing. I take Fred's opinion seriously, but so far as I'm concerned the rules are what the books say.
Mostly because I dislike the ideas of having the rules change on me and having to search the net to work out what the rules are.
If you follow that line of reasoning, you could get a "laser sight" and tag it for a guns stunt that grants you +1 on every gun attack done with the laser sight in that scene. Which you could do with a whole lot of stuff, and suddenly a high resources skill can replace almost any stunt in the book.
I think it is a cool thing to look at some things differently, in order to reduce their costs (like treating turning into an eagle for surveillance purposes is just the narrative of a divination spell, not actually a transformation, and therefore doesn't need fate points for the powers. But if you allow tags to grant temporary powers, you kind of cheapen them, I think. Fate points are good for that. Debt as well (sometimes even better).
I would look seriously askance at any player who wanted to create an Item of Power 'on-screen' through the use of a relatively simple ritual. To me, that's a rather more complicated and involved process than can be pulled off in an afternoon's effort.Well, for something like the Swords of the Cross, sure. For something relatively minor like a Hexenwulf Belt, though, I wouldn't think it'd be too difficult. Harry summoned up Sue without too much difficulty, and Hexenwulf belts are the same basic principle; you're just binding a spirit into a belt rather than the skeleton of a Tyrannosaurus Rex.
This is a total of five Aspects invoked/tagged, for a total of five Fate Point-equivalents; so the enchantment on the necklace would last for five scenes or the next noon, whichever came first, right?No. Assuming you've managed to research, acquire ingredients, prepare, and cast the spell* prior to invoking aspects, it might...though duration needs corrected / clarified. I'm not sure where your duration of 'noon' came from - dusk and dawn are the thresholds. It's also explicitly stated that you can only buy temporary powers for one scene. (YS92)
No. Assuming you've managed to research, acquire ingredients, prepare, and cast the spell* prior to invoking aspects, it might...though duration needs corrected / clarified. I'm not sure where your duration of 'noon' came from - dusk and dawn are the thresholds.Changes, when Lea makes a some magical outfits for Susan and Harry, and when Harry makes a snark about hoping they won't disappear at midnight, she responds with something to the effect of "Of course not; what do you take me for, a Summer faerie? They'll last until noon." This implies that Seelie/Unseelie magic lasts until midnight and noon, respectively, rather than until dusk/dawn like most thaumaturgy does.
It's also explicitly stated that you can only buy temporary powers for one scene. (YS92)Yeah, but I figured you could keep buying the same Temporary powers over and over again each scene. It adds up quick, if you're trying for anything more than a power worth more than one or two Refresh.
*The spell itself isn't going to be easy. You'll need the appropriate symbolic links to start with...good luck getting away from a dragon with anything useable as a symbolic link back to him. Harry went through some fairly extreme measures to get a link back, what do you think the dragon might be willing to do?The symbolic link is himself; the dragon he turns into is a manifestation/personification of the predatory and possessive instincts that come with the Mantle of the Winter Knight.
Hmmmm. Well, first off, a necklace is only a +1 Item of Power, you'd need a dragonskin cloak or something to be +2,*checks Item of Power* Hmm, I think you might be right. It's based on whether or not it's concealable, though, not size, so a ring should work. You can't conceal them when you're wearing them openly on your finger, after all. A pin for his suit-collar or tie might also work. Or belts, if he wants to just rip off the Hexenwulf spells.
speaking of which...none of the Tags you list actually explain how he casts the spell. The story of the spell, y'know, what the whole process of making spell declarations is supposed to be about?Hmm? He sits down, and does a bunch of calculations working out the physical principles of the thing. Then he builds the image in his mind, whips up a circle of ice with Evocation, and pulls on the power of Winter through his Mantle to power the ritual, and the instincts of his mantle to understand how to use his new form, and focuses them through the mental images he has and ties them all off in the item he's using to store the spell.
So no, I wouldn't allow that. Or any spell that was designed that way. On the other hand, getting your hands on the scale of a Dragon (Contacts), finding the proper ritual in an ancient book to assume a tiny fragment of it's glory (Lore), and a single Scholarship Declaration (any one of your three) to understand how to structure it properly, and I might allow it, yeah. Spells must be thematically appropriate in order to work. Indeed, with Thaumaturgy, that and time are their only real limitations, so you damn well better enforce them.It's not an actual Dragon, so much as the image of a lower-case dragon as a representation of the possessive and predatory aspects of Winter.
I'd also just generally be very skeptical of applying Item of Power or Human Form to any temporary power set. Their disadvantages are mostly long-term, and I'm very skeptical of allowing them on such a temporary thing. But that's a personal thing not the rules. I'd also be very skeptical of any PC grabbing Beast Change on a temporary basis without some sort of possession going on (ala Hexenwulfen, and likely including Demonic Copilot), simply because it's really hard to justify any other way.Becoming a personification of the worst of the Winter Knight's instincts wouldn't be enough for you? ;)
So, in short, yes, you can do what you're talking about (at the costs in question), but the item needs to be more obvious and you need better thematics for your Thaumaturgy to actually work. And you need an explanation for Beast Change, which you are seriously lacking.He gets big and strong (increasing Might), and overwhelmed by the instincts of his Mantle (decreasing Scholarship and increasing Fists, Survival, and Stealth), dulling his thought processes. Also, he doesn't have hands anymore, dropping Craftsmanship, Driving, and Weapons to 0.
Changes, when Lea makes a some magical outfits for Susan and Harry, and when Harry makes a snark about hoping they won't disappear at midnight, she responds with something to the effect of "Of course not; what do you take me for, a Summer faerie? They'll last until noon." This implies that Seelie/Unseelie magic lasts until midnight and noon, respectively, rather than until dusk/dawn like most thaumaturgy does.
Yeah, but I figured you could keep buying the same Temporary powers over and over again each scene. It adds up quick, if you're trying for anything more than a power worth more than one or two Refresh.
The symbolic link is himself; the dragon he turns into is a manifestation/personification of the predatory and possessive instincts that come with the Mantle of the Winter Knight.
Yeah, but I figured you could keep buying the same Temporary powers over and over again each scene. It adds up quick, if you're trying for anything more than a power worth more than one or two Refresh.I think that's against the spirit of the text and probably the letter. Besides, you'd need the justification each time as well...casting a spell in this case. So you'd end up with it every other scene at best and each scene in between would be about casting the spell. It'd get old fast I think.
The symbolic link is himself; the dragon he turns into is a manifestation/personification of the predatory and possessive instincts that come with the Mantle of the Winter Knight.Weak, I don't buy it. Whether or not your group does is up to them.
Cold Days seems to dispute this (it has a spell cast by Mab end at dawn).Are you referring to how
EDIT:*checks Item of Power* Hmm, I think you might be right. It's based on whether or not it's concealable, though, not size, so a ring should work. You can't conceal them when you're wearing them openly on your finger, after all. A pin for his suit-collar or tie might also work. Or belts, if he wants to just rip off the Hexenwulf spells.
Hmm? He sits down, and does a bunch of calculations working out the physical principles of the thing. Then he builds the image in his mind, whips up a circle of ice with Evocation, and pulls on the power of Winter through his Mantle to power the ritual, and the instincts of his mantle to understand how to use his new form, and focuses them through the mental images he has and ties them all off in the item he's using to store the spell.
It's not an actual Dragon, so much as the image of a lower-case dragon as a representation of the possessive and predatory aspects of Winter.
Becoming a personification of the worst of the Winter Knight's instincts wouldn't be enough for you? ;)
He gets big and strong (increasing Might), and overwhelmed by the instincts of his Mantle (decreasing Scholarship and increasing Fists, Survival, and Stealth), dulling his thought processes. Also, he doesn't have hands anymore, dropping Craftsmanship, Driving, and Weapons to 0.
Are you referring to how(click to show/hide)
Gloves can go over a ring. Pins are easily concealed in a pocket. A belt is invisible under a jacket. It needs to be big enough that you physically can't just put it into your pocket or under your jacket to hide it to be a +2. A suit works, a walking stick or cane works, a ring does not.
As noted previously, it's in the book. That just clarifies what the slightly unclear wording there means.
Well, the issue with shapechanging using Tags with Thaumaturgy is that that's an immensely time consuming thing to do. Like, hours or days, not minutes (for anything beyond a couple or three tags anyway).
He says he would "suggest". That doesn't sound like a clarification of the RAW to me, it sounds like a possible way to adjudicate things.
And even if it was a grand statement of rules, it doesn't matter. The rules are what the books say. Expecting people to trawl the net for the Real Rules is just silly.
In short, the Fred quote is pretty meaningless.
This isn't actually true.
Five-minute rituals are appropriate mechanically and narratively.
One would assume that bigger rituals would take longer, but as it happens the rules don't actually say that...it's a known issue with the Thaumaturgy system. The book provides no real guidance when it comes to Thaumaturgy's time-scale, so people are left to make things up based on what makes sense, and not everybody agrees on what makes sense.
And doing calculations in your head is a reasonable Declaration, it just becomes broken when added to the possibility of paying Refresh costs with tags. Which indicates that paying Refresh costs with tags is unfair, to my mind.
The game is 'unfinished', making the marginalia as much RAW as the rest of the book. The marginalia say you can do it, and he clarifies what he means by that (in case it was unclear).
I actually agree with you for the most part...but this isn't an after-the-fact rules change or something, it's an explanation for what a slightly unclear bit of rules text means. If there are multiple textual interpretations and the author tells you which he meant...that's clearly the way the rules work.
True to some extent...but Fate in general is supposed to be more narrative than anything. Things take as long as they should take dramatically speaking. For anything big, that's quite a while. You can handle it another way, sure, but all kinds of things start getting broken if you do. Tags to get temporary powers are the least of it. I mean, if you allow five minutes of figuring to result in three or four Declarations just from the thought process, any player who's actually creative with Thaumaturgy will completely wreck your game casually even without these rules. Certainly I could.
Multiple declarations for figuring out stuff in your head, all with the same skill, with no other Declarations at all are unreasonable as the sum total of any spell. You need a better story and more justification than that. Now, as part of a larger ritual, sure, they're fine. The problem here is in the methodology, not the goals.
The marginalia imply it without directly stating it, in contradiction of the rules given earlier in the book. That's hardly ironclad.
Nope.
In order for the author's word to have any effect on the meaning of the rules, it would have to hold some special weight. Which it does not.
Look, we aren't mind readers and we can't be expected to track down the author's intentions when the rules are vague. So intention is best ignored. If the rules are unclear, acknowledge that and play with the interpretation that makes for the best game.
The problems are that a) there's no real agreement on how long things should take dramatically speaking and b) the vagueness basically forces you to play freeform when doing big rituals. And freeform play makes all of those (mostly very good) Thaumaturgy rules totally pointless because you're barely using them, while ruining the whole powergaming experience.
And three or four Declarations in five minutes doesn't actually break much. At least, my experience indicates that it does't actually break much. It's powerful, but not ridiculously so.
And yes, my players are creative with Thaumaturgy.
(Recovery abuse is pretty broken, though.)
I wouldn't let people do them all with the same skill, but a five minute ritual with +6 complexity from Declarations is generally okay with me. Allowing that just means that people will use Thaumaturgy frequently and in a variety of ways.
Now, people do indeed take rituals a bit for granted when you let them do them fast. That's okay, they spent Refresh on them. It doesn't damage the game if they divine the murderer's name or summon up a flying chariot to cross a chasm.
But if they give themselves Inhuman Recovery all the bloody time then it does damage the game. So you can't let people take power-granting for granted.
They literally didn't have space to make it clearer.
Well, yes. Obviously. You always go with whatever makes the best game regardless of any rules...but if you're doing so in knowing contradiction of the author's stated intent (especially state right when the words were written) you're making a house rule and claims that you aren't are shaky at best. Now, doing house rules is hardly a problem...but it's very much what's going on when you make interpretations you know for a fact aren't what the authors intended.
I honestly think if you're looking for a powergaming experience, the DFRPG (and especially the Thaumaturgy rules) are not made with your sensibilities or goals in mind.
It's the 'while doing nothing but thinking' that makes me really dubious, you at least need to make a circle and have an ingredient or two. But yeah, I don't actually have a problem with quick Thaumaturgy...but 3 refresh of powers aren't generally too awful anyway. It's if you keep allowing the player to do so over successive five minute periods it gets really problematic.
It's when they get much bigger that they start taking more and more time, progressing in a geometric fashion, not a linear one.
Eh. They could have it all the time for a point of Refresh anyway (indeed, I think 5/6 of my last group did). I'm really not seeing a problem with getting it cheaply without FP. Hell, Reiki Healing already does that sans FP at only Complexity 8-10, except for the in-combat use, which they're almost never gonna get unless prepping for a fight. And even then, if they have prep-time, Inhuman Recovery is hardly their best choice, is it?
Wrong.
So wrong, in fact, that I suspect I'm misunderstanding you somehow.
Look at the Temporary Powers box. Do you really think they couldn't fit the words "or tags" in there? Because they could have. There's more than enough space for six letters and two spaces.
Did you really mean that they couldn't fit those words in the box on page 92?
I feel like you're not actually reading my posts...
Intent doesn't matter to me. What's written does. A house rule is a rule that contradicts the rules as written, not a rule that contradicts the rules as intended.
Of all the systems I'm familiar with, it accommodates powergaming the best.
D&D 3.5, Exalted, Scion, and Shadowrun all implode (more than they do normally) if you try to powergame. Unknown Armies, Don't Rest Your Head, and Nobilis provide little reward for optimization. Alpha Omega is just kind of meh mechanically. Mongoose Legend's randomness makes powergaming kinda futile, and Rule Of Cool Legend is not finished yet.
I don't know what Evil Hat intended, but I doubt they were unaware of the way that Compels bring optimal play into line with interesting play. And they probably didn't provide a wide selection of mostly-but-not-completely balanced abilities by accident.
Why would I not let them do it repeatedly?
It'd be nice if this was true.
Because the way it is now, the group has to make it true. And if they have differing ideas about how Thaumaturgy works, that's a massive pain.
In my experience, people disagree about what's possible with rituals all the time. This is rather problematic when somebody actually wants to cast one and people waste time talking about the rules instead of using them.
The above bit about "repeated-ness" is a good example. If we were actually playing I might try to conjure a dozen things one by one. This seems to me to be within the rules as written and the rules as intended. But if you were at the table, the game might need to be derailed by a tedious discussion about whether I can actually do that.
Inhuman Recovery is much better than Reiki Healing. And if you don't think it's the best available, pick something else...it's just an example.
No, I meant they didn't have space on p. 283. By default, RAW and RAI, without Thaumaturgy, you cannot pay the cost with Tags...and thus p. 92 is not the place for this. P. 283, where they discuss how Thaumaturgy rules interact with those rules is, in fact, the perfect place...but they only had room for a few more words...so they put them in, but not with as much clarity as would be ideal.
I actually agree with you for the most part. Except when the rules-as-written are open to multiple valid interpretations (as here)...in which case, the author saying what they meant makes all the difference in the world and leads to an obviously correct interpretation.
Oh, bringing optimal play in-line with interesting play was a design goal...powergaming per se was not. The fact that powergaming doesn't break the system just shows that it's a well-designed system...not that its intent is to enable such things. And the 'unequal' powers are a necessary artifact of the world it's intended to represent. A DFRPG game where humans could do as much damage in unarmed combat as Ogres would seriously fly in the face of the world it's intended to simulate...so some dgree of inequality is inevitable.
It's boring and fails to tell a story?
Not if the GM's on the ball. Their ruling's the one that counts and everyone should abide by that after one argument at the most. So one discussion per game (not session, but game)...not too bad a price to pay for flexibility in how much time the group wants to spend on Thaumaturgy and in what manner.
If things get argued more than that, well, I'm inclined to think there would've been arguments about something anyway. There's always some point of disagreement to be had in any game. Always.
How's having it for one non-combat scene better than a Reiki Healing spell or two? It speeds up Consequence healing the same amount and is about an equivalent ritual.
And what else should I use? I'm having a hard time coming up with much that'll really break things.
Wait, you're saying that the Thaumaturgy temporary Power rules are different from the normal ones? Sounds weird...I don't see much reason to assume that that's the case.
And given how over-written YS is, I'm pretty certain they could have found room.
If the rules are vague then they are vague. The correct interpretation is "they're vague", not "search the net for a developer comment".
Just out of curiosity, what do you use the word "powergaming" to mean?
Also, humans can do as much damage as ogres in unarmed combat.
Doesn't have to be boring.
And any sequence of events is a story.
There's a lot more than one point of vagueness in the rules. Believe me, it's not just one argument.
The rules for Thaumaturgy promote confusion and disagreement. Because they clearly assume that people have some kind of unspoken awareness of what everyone else thinks is acceptable. And that's not always so.
If you're supposed to decide on the limits of Thaumaturgy as a group, the rules should say something about doing that during city/character creation. But they don't.
And having the GM impose dictatorial control is not a good thing at all. I can say as a GM, it's not fun.
It affects all consequences, not just a single moderate, and is handy if a fight starts.
Plus you don't have it for one scene, you have it for all of them. Just cast the ritual again.
Wizards are, in-story, munchkins. They can be expected to acquire whatever unfair magical advantages they can.
Wings is probably the most broken thing to make easily available with magic. Beast Change is pretty unfair too. But honestly a few extra points of Refresh for free will pretty much always break things. You don't even have to spend it intelligently.
Are you saying that one of the authors of the game was lying or mistaken there...or what? Because I'm legitimately unclear. I mean, he directly said there wasn't room, what more do you want?
Because, y'know, the actual author's intent has some relevance if you happen to know what it was at the time.
In context? Attempting to make the most mechanically optimal character possible, preferably one with no weaknesses whatsoever and being as unstoppable as possible in whatever area you focus on. Not usually a good primary goal in any game (though fine as a secondary goal) and just generally not what this specific system was designed for.
Not at equal levels of skill, no. Well, not without vast amounts of luck/FP anyway.
No, but it sure sounds it in most cases compared to more active casting.
...
Yes, but not necessarily a very good one or one that makes narrative sense.
Well, sure. I meant one argument on that specific subject.
Um...game writers aren't perfect and don't think of everything? I mean, sure, that'd be nice and clearly a good idea, but it's not hard to work around.
And if you're really playing with a group who can't work this sort of thing out in some sort of amicable fashion...that sounds like there's a problem there that has nothing to do with the game.
...
Saying "That's my ruling and it's final." to stop an argument after you've heard out both sides isn't dictatorial control, it's a GM's job. And it's only unfun if there are things like emotional issues involved...which there really shouldn't be if you're being fair.
Eh. It doesn't help with Severe Consequences (since it's only one scene) and Mild Consequences only take a scene to heal anyway. So the difference is primarily academic if it's used in a non-combat scene.
Effectively 9-14 Shift Rituals are hard to do every scene.
Of course. Any they have, y'know, time to do. Wizards tend to win given unlimited time, you need to rush them for them to have real problems. Luckily, this neatly matches how the novels go. Yay genre emulation. :)
Flying is cool, but hardly unstoppable. And Beast Change is only a problem if you let them grab it and get whatever skills they like...and even then, they'd almost certainly be better just sticking with Evocation
And it's hardly at-will, which is sorta my point. It's if given prep-time. Prep-time is always good. Indeed, with navel gazing Aspects it's one Aspect per exchange good...which might well be better than that time expended on a ritual.
I'm no mind reader, but I've read that note and it contains unnecessary words. Room could have been made.
My guess is that Fred didn't much care about that detail and so put little effort into making room for it.
Given that I've spent the entire thread saying the exact opposite of this, I'm actually pretty surprised that you'd just drop this comment in there like that.
So my response is:
no.
I use a slightly wider definition, which includes attempting to play your character in the most optimal manner possible. That is, in the manner most likely to accomplish your character's goals.
One of the best points of this game is that it doesn't often make you choose between the smart play and the narratively appropriate one.
That's what I mean when I say it's powergaming-friendly. It remains fun if people try to "win" when they play. I'd even say it gets more fun, but that's my personal taste.
This is kind of special because a lot of games just stop being fun if people make a serious attempt at "winning". D&D 3.5, for instance, devolves into uber-complex builds and 15-minute adventuring days.
Who said anything about equal skill?
My experience is that if you just gloss over low-complexity rituals the game works nicely and produces good stories. "I take five minutes and conjure a sword" is best answered with "okay, you have a sword".
Unfortunately that style of play won't hold up under the rules you propose.
Each ritual can be its own subject, though.
It actually kind of is hard to work around.
Look, this is a problem that people have. You can't argue away the fact that it's happened to me and to others.
It's your job and it's dictatorial.
Look, arguing with your friends isn't fun. Neither is passing judgement. This (probably) isn't going to ruin a friendship, but it makes the game less pleasant to play.
The interaction with Severe consequences is unclear, especially if you give yourself Recovery repeatedly.
Are they?
I tend to assume so, but I've heard it seriously said that 30 shifts is pretty easy. And not by someone stupid.
So I guess Harry's an idiot for not having access to Wings at all times. I mean, he had time in most of his casefiles for a quick ritual here and there.
Oh, and if I don't play at a breakneck pace I'm doing it wrong. So it's just my problem if things break.
Doesn't have to be unstoppable to be unfair.
And why wouldn't people be able to pick whatever skills they want?
Oh, and Beast Change is mostly great for perception and mobility.
Prep time is good, but if giving a Wizard a few minutes of it immediately gives everybody a bunch of Powers the game gets pretty wonky.
Tags don't last long enough to break anything normally. You have to use them "almost immediately".
Where on p. 283? Because I'm not seeing it, to be honest.
That is indeed a strength of the game for the most part. Doesn't mean it was designed with people who do this at the expense of other things explicitly in mind, it means it was designed so that they wouldn't damage the fun of or be vastly more powerful than people who put the story first.
Not if you work out a definitive ruling the first time. Something I'd strongly advise for this kind of thing.
That's true and fair. And a potential issue with the system, but I'm not really arguing it's not, I'm trying to explain why it was done that way and explain how to work around the problem. I've always found problems much easier to work around when you minimize them. In the grand scheme of things, this is a very little problem, and one solvable with a few basic agreements among a gaming group.
I've never in my life had issues with any of this. Indeed, most friend-groups I've had usually enjoy a good argument. And every good GM I've ever had hasn't had any issues with laying down the law when necessary. I'm willing to believe that's not a universal experience, but still it seems to be something worth striving for. And a problem that has nothing at all to do with whatever system you're using. No system's perfect, so they'll all have these issues, and coping strategies are a necessary thing for all of them.
Or in other words: These are legit problems...but they're problems with gaming (or doing so in some groups) not with the DFRPG per se.
True enough. Of course, Reiki can heal that as well with a tad bit more effort. And can be used on others without violating the 2nd Law.
No. But I'm not at all convinced it's even unfair. Wings is cool, but only a game-changer under certain very specific circumstances.
...
You need to justify skill distributions somehow, some are harder to justify than others.
True...and it's not bad at all for those things. Not that big a deal when used for those purposes, though.
What's a few minutes? What's a bunch of powers? Even at 5 minutes per ritual (which strikes me as low for Complexity 9+) that's at least half an hour of doing nothing but prep, giving the GM an equal amount of time to prep the villains (or have them set other things in motion). And if you're going with more like 15 minutes or half an hour a piece it becomes more like several hours of prep.
And it'll only last one scene, so you better hope you're close enough to your target that it's not a full scene (no matter how short) getting there. And ignores the whole 'This violates the 2nd Law' issue (I guess if the whole group sans Wizard isn't human at all...).
The only actual restriction is that they occur in the same scene...which is more or less the same restriction as when you have access to temporary powers.
A tag is subject to one key limitation: it must occur almost immediately after the aspect has been brought into play.
Harry's bit could be rewritten as "Hey, Billy. What does it take to transform someone into a form with new Powers?"
That would open up space to replace the brackets at the end with "(Or temporarily-see page 92, but let people use tags instead of Fate Points to pay for the temporary Powers if they want.)
Like I said, I don't know the intentions.
The thing is that the issues are slightly different each time.
It's a pretty big problem by the standards of rules issues in pretend elfgames, actually. A few basic agreements may have worked for you, but it's not always that easy.
This particular segment of DFRPG encourages those problems with gaming, though.
Normally it's okay-ish if not everybody goes in with the same expectations, but where Thaumaturgy is concerned it is not.
Giving other people Recovery need not violate the Law. If granting Powers is a fair application of transformation magic, granting Recovery ought to be a fair application of healing magic.
Oh, and Reiki explicitly might not be usable on Severe consequences. Says so in the writeup.
Wings is actually a big deal in any fight against a melee character and any scene with obstacles on the ground.
The strongest skill distributions make perfect sense and require no special justification.
It's a big deal. It makes you Superb.
The Laws should not be used to balance the game.
Anyway, the rest of what you said runs headlong into the issues of vagueness that Thaumaturgy has. The prep will only take hours if the GM says it does.
They say it should be used in the same scene "at worst" and that delay should be avoided.
True...but a few basic guidelines and reasonable people are all you really need.
Not compared to a dozen problems I can think of in a host of other games I've actually played (never mind those I've refused to play based on mechanics). I mean...it's certainly an issue, but even by RPG standards, it's the kind that can be fixed by one guy with no House Rules needed. If you want me to get into problems get me talking about Exalted, Scion, or some areas of NWoD and I'll go on and on. This particular issue is just not that bad comparatively.
You can already use spells to sub in for skills...this may last a bit longer, but it's hardly much better otherwise.
Why not? I was under the impression that was a large part of their purpose (well, after genre emulation, obviously). They're certainly something you can do without, but the game's balance is sorta predicated on their being there.
Not so. As proof, I present my own experience.
There are worse issues, it's true. A large fraction of the RPG market isn't actually playable as-written.
The fact that Dresden mechanics actually work most of the time magnifies this issue, though. In Exalted you expect to ignore the rules and make stuff up all the time. In DFRPG the rules usually help you make stuff up.
Yes it is. It covers a bunch of skills and can be used repeatedly. Plus it's an awesome disguise.
Nope.
See, the Laws only apply to humans. And human-ness is a thing with no mechanical cost. People can just say "I'm human" or "I'm not" and they will say both as events warrant.
So if something is overpowered, prohibiting its use against humans just means that anybody with the foolishness to not say "I'm human" is screwed. Or if it's a buff, the opposite is so.
Plus, the Laws apply to methods rather than to effects. And this system offers the right to reflavour methods as long as the mechanical effect remains the same. If some method of doing something is against a Law, it can just be replaced with another method. Make a golem instead of a zombie.
Fortunately, the Laws aren't actually needed for game balance. Seriously, you could ditch 'em totally and the game would remain balanced.
Um...if you give me details I'd be happy to help? Aside from that, I dunno what to say. It's certainly a fairly solvable problem most of the time. I present as evidence basically all the games of DFRPG I've ever played.
Not being able to use certain powers half the time is a real limitation and part of the balance, IMO. The fact that the PCs get to decide which side of the line they're on is hardly relevant. The fact that the GM gets to decide such a thing arbitrarily actually makes the down side worse.
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That's not true of all effects. You can't mind control or mind read someone. Period. I think this, as transformation, falls into the same category.
That's not true of all effects. You can't mind control or mind read someone. Period. I think this, as transformation, falls into the same category.
Eh, most of the problems were a while ago. The issue I'm having with Thaumaturgy right now may or may not be related, but I think I'm handling it well.
(If you're curious, a PbP game just sort of stalled once the players started using Thaumaturgy. The culprit may have been vagueness, coincidence, or simple lack of creativity. I had somebody knock on the door, though, so things are happening again.)
The thing about problems is, if one person has them it doesn't much matter whether another person does. They're there. "No issue" only trumps "issue" if "issue" is a tiny tiny minority. And judging by this place it's pretty common.
Eh, you can do super-empathy or whatever and get whatever mind-reading effects you want. Molly does magic-empathy all the time. Mind control is trickier to replicate, but depending on your GM you may be able to wrangle something.
The first point, incidentally, would be sound if the Laws were used as a balancing point for magic in general and if they could not be narrated around. But they can be narrated around, and the Laws are almost invariably used to handwave away specific issues. Like this one.
In Storm Front, when confronted by Morgan over his treatment of Toot, Harry offers 2 defenses. His first defense is that the magic he performed only implanted a suggestion in the pixie's mind, which was apparently enough to place the case solidly in 'grey magic' territory. His second defense is that Toot is a Faerie, and thus not protected by the Laws on this matter.
I suppose. It just seems to me like a problem that should be solvable with relatively few hassles. That's likely biasing me in this particular area...
I'm...not quite sure what you're arguing here. My original argument was actually that things weren't imbalanced even if the 2nd Law didn't kick in (which I thought it would). That's...not really a hand-wave.
It might seem that way but I promise it isn't. I'm reminded of a recent thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?668054-Pros-cons-of-Dresden-Files-FATE) on RPGnet, which I think shows the trouble that Thaumaturgy's vagueness gives people.
I'm thinking more about the people who think Evocation attacks are broken and try to balance them with the First Law.
Interesting. I'll give that a more in-depth look when I have some time.
There is also only so many ways you can recolor stealth declairations for "I silently sneak up behind him, and put a knife in his heart". Thaum doesnt really have that soft cap to where you just run out of ways to color declairations.This is where that difference in expectations trips people up...your declarations don't need to be from the skill you're using! Using your stealth example, we could use a Resource declaration of 'I bought a ninja suit'; one from Athletics saying 'I've climbed through the trees to drop from above'; Discipline of 'held very still' with Endurance of 'for an extended period of time'...etc. I probably wouldn't ever use a Stealth declaration for a Stealth roll...doesn't make sense to gain synergy from itself. Rolled declarations are all about that synergy...how you claim to have set yourself up for the current action.
This is where that difference in expectations trips people up...your declarations don't need to be from the skill you're using! Using your stealth example, we could use a Resource declaration of 'I bought a ninja suit'; one from Athletics saying 'I've climbed through the trees to drop from above'; Discipline of 'held very still' with Endurance of 'for an extended period of time'...etc. I probably wouldn't ever use a Stealth declaration for a Stealth roll...doesn't make sense to gain synergy from itself. Rolled declarations are all about that synergy...how you claim to have set yourself up for the current action.Which is an excellent use of the game mechanics. The problem is this: imagine that to succeed in that stealth action you needed 30 shifts. Even with a 5 stealth and a roll of +4 you would still need to make 11 successful declairations (barring spending fate points) to succeed. Sounds kind of rediculous IMO. The books seem to suggest that not only is that perfectly acceptable, but that it should be the norm for thaumaturgy.
With aspect creation fitting the situation is what matters...the skill is just setting your situation's expectations. Thaumaturgy simply broadens the expectations because "it's FM".
Which is an excellent use of the game mechanics. The problem is this: imagine that to succeed in that stealth action you needed 30 shifts. Even with a 5 stealth and a roll of +4 you would still need to make 11 successful declairations (barring spending fate points) to succeed. Sounds kind of rediculous IMO. The books seem to suggest that not only is that perfectly acceptable, but that it should be the norm for thaumaturgy.I don't think so. It all depends on how you look at a specific ritual.
I almost feel that treating major rituals as a side quest, making the players role play obtaining the important components solves much of the problem. It circumvents convoluted declairation stacking.
And I think you can do so with a lot of things. Look at a ritual from the result end, not the means end. Zombie rising for example could be done as a simple resources or contacts replacement to hire some supernatural thugs.
Resources let's you buy things, mercenaries sell their services.
The detailed summoning rules are great for building a golem or something like it, a magical robot, if you will.
But even there, I would probably just make it a craftsmanship replacement or something similar.