Well, check out the Ogre in OW: Complete immunity to magic (or at least offensive magic) is -3 Refresh (though that version wouldn't help vs. the guy with magically enhanced strength). So whatever this guy's got it shouldn't cost much more than that unless it does other things...
Personally, I'd give him the Physical Immunity (Magic) described above (for -3 Refresh), Supernatural Toughness with the Catch Attacks by Pure Mortals +3 (for -1 Refresh) and maybe Holy Touch with a slight reflavoring (and target selection change) to reflect the 'touching him hurts some things' angle (call it 'Anti-magic Touch'). That's a total of -5 Refresh and pretty cool, really.
Also, I'll point out that in the setting, the only things that have this sort of anti-magic effect are the Outsiders, and people who traffic with them. I'd recommend adding in Lawbreaker (Seventh) and either Ritual (Summoning) or Sponsored Magic (a specific Outsider like He Who Walks Behind). Even if it was someone else who summoned the Outsider to give you these sorts of powers, you should probably have an aspect reflecting the source of your anti-magic, and your relationships with the warlock who did the summoning, and the Outsider that was summoned.
Huh? Ogres are immune to magic. They're just Nevernever creatures. I'm not sure Lawbreaker is appropriate - especially considering Lawbreaker only applies to spellcasting and not natural abilities.If you're referring to the "ogre" in Summer Knight, it wasn't immune to magic. It was just highly resistant, because it was actually a Sidhe Lord using a Glamour to look like an ogre. I'm not actually sure if Harry's ever fought a real ogre before, and not even the Faerie Queens are fully immune to magic like Outsiders are.
He might just be an Ogre changeling, but I could see the possibility of a human having some kind of latent magic-grounding properties, depending on his background.
As Deadmanwalking pointed out, the Ogre in OW has full immunity to magic.That wasn't an Ogre that Harry fought then, but a high-ranking Sidhe Lord, one of Aurora's top lieutenants. Witness the contrast of the Ogre he "fought" in Cold Days,
PS This is a no spoilers zone. Please make sure you tag them.
As for the original point nick012000 made: I disagree completely. It's pretty clear that Talos at least, was immune to magic, and others have been mentioned. Nor does Harry think of Outsiders when he discovers Lord Raith's complete immunity. Now that particular example might well be Outsider based (given his dealing with He Who Walks Behind)...but if only Outsiders had such immunity, that'd be pretty common knowledge (I mean, Harry knows they have such powers, and if nothing else does...), and would've led Harry's thoughts down very different directions than they went down. Hell, it would've led Ebenezar's thoughts down very different roads than they went down (remember that he is one of the most knowledgable folks out there, magic-wise, and he knew of said immunity for something like 25 years and never seems to have thought 'Oh, he must be dealing with Outsiders'). It's clearly a rare thing in the world, but not Outsider-only.There's a difference between "Immune to magic" and "So powerful you might as well be immune to magic", but to your average mortal spell-slinger, it'll be pretty hard to tell the difference. I'm just saying that the former is exclusive to Outsiders, while the latter is something pretty much every Supernatural Heavyweight possesses.
There's a difference between "Immune to magic" and "So powerful you might as well be immune to magic", but to your average mortal spell-slinger, it'll be pretty hard to tell the difference. I'm just saying that the former is exclusive to Outsiders, while the latter is something pretty much every Supernatural Heavyweight possesses.
There's a difference between "Immune to magic" and "So powerful you might as well be immune to magic", but to your average mortal spell-slinger, it'll be pretty hard to tell the difference. I'm just saying that the former is exclusive to Outsiders, while the latter is something pretty much every Supernatural Heavyweight possesses.
This is immune to Ebenezar McCoy. The Blackstaff. A guy who can destroy cities or small nations when he feels like it.Huh? Talos showed up in Summer Knight, and Eb only showed up briefly in the very beginning of that one, when Harry went to visit the White Council.When he has years to prep. That's clearly immunity, not resistance.(click to show/hide)
And yet, he never even thinks Outsider. That clearly indicates it's not an 'Outsider only' thing in his head, and who'd know better than him? Okay, the Gatekeeper, but who else?
Huh? Talos showed up in Summer Knight, and Eb only showed up briefly in the very beginning of that one, when Harry went to visit the White Council.
Uh...re-read my post before that one.Yeah, but he's also Lord Raith, the leader of a supernatural nation - the exact sort of person you'd expect to be a Supernatural Heavyweight who is so powerful that they're basically immune to magic for all practical purposes. Distinguishing between "Immune to magic" and "so powerful he's almost immune to magic" isn't exactly easy to do, at least in-character.
I'm referring to Lord Raith, the white King. someone we know was immune to magic (or at least direct magic). His might've been Outsider-based (what with his connections in that area)...but Ebenezar clearly knew he was completely immune to magic, and didn't assume (or apparently even suspect) that it was Outsider based...which strongly implies non-Outsider stuff can have it, since The Blackstaff'd be one of the first people to know that was a telling clue if it was an Outsider-only thing.
Yeah, but he's also Lord Raith, the leader of a supernatural nation - the exact sort of person you'd expect to be a Supernatural Heavyweight who is so powerful that they're basically immune to magic for all practical purposes. Distinguishing between "Immune to magic" and "so powerful he's almost immune to magic" isn't exactly easy to do, at least in-character.
"Immune to magic" [...] is exclusive to Outsiders
Yeah, but he's also Lord Raith, the leader of a supernatural nation - the exact sort of person you'd expect to be a Supernatural Heavyweight who is so powerful that they're basically immune to magic for all practical purposes.There is no basis for this at all. There is not some threshold beyond which you are "basically immune to magic." Lord Raith directly and explicitly had something special going on with his immunity, and nobody once ever attributes it to something like, "He's the leader of a nation, so of course he has it."
Also - the grendelkin in "Heorot" is highly resistant to magic. The Scarecrow in PG is highly resistant or immune. Madrigal Raith's ward-cloths made him immune to magic, until Carlos cut them up (from WN).
The Grendelkin and the Scarecrow are good examples, but, in fairness to his point, Madrigal isn't as he was playing with Outsider powers...very possibly including the ward-cloths.
You're thinking of Vittorio. Madrigal was a pawn for the Black Council, not a member. The ward cloths could very easily have just been enchanted with a powerful shield, no need for Immunity and the likes.
Also, the prevailing theory for Lord Raith was that he had some sort of Outsider related gizmo that provided his Immunity. If I'm remembering Blood Rites correctly the effects of it are directly compared to the magic absorbing effects of mordite, and Lord Raith is one of the few people we know to have had direct contact with He-Who-Walks-Behind so it's not beyond reasoning that it was Outsider related.
It makes sense to me that Immunity to Magic is more of an Outsider thing, since that's their big schtick. Demons are nasty but impersonal and need ectoplasm to manifest, Fae are tricksy and weak to iron, Vampires can't stand holy stuff and drink blood (White Court aside). Outsiders, on the other hand, don't play by the rules of the Dresdenverse, and they're all but immune to regular magic.
Lord Marshal Talos had to actively use his counterspell/shield spell during the Battle Above Chicago (whichever it was), so my bet is that he was just countering Harry's spells as he cast them, or just shrugging them off, since he was a Sidhe Lord with centuries of experience... I'd put him near the same level as Lea on the magical ability scale, and we all saw how powerful she was at Chitzen Itza. Harry got hilariously lucky when Meryl took him out, really. He didn't stand a chance of taking him on head to head without ruining his surprise.
We actually have no evidence he was anywhere near that powerful. It's possible, but a hell of an assumption. He was Aurora's flunky, after all, not Titania's. Lea serves Mab in a similar capacity. I suspect those who serve the Queen's are a whole weight class up on those who serve the Ladies.It's more than this. Lea isn't just in a weight class above those who serve Maeve. Lea ranks 3rd among the Winter Court, after only the Mother and Mab, and ABOVE Maeve.
And he was trying to stay in-character as an Ogre. It seems unlikely he'd demonstrate a Sidhe-only power when doing that...he didn't know how much Harry knew about the Fae (ie: very little), after all. It seems more likely to me that he was indeed counterspelling under the Glamour and using that to mimic an Ogre's natural immunity.I thought I remembered some mention that it was likely a power imbued into his armour (which was disguised under the glamour when he was appearing as an ogre).
It's more than this. Lea isn't just in a weight class above those who serve Maeve. Lea ranks 3rd among the Winter Court, after only the Mother and Mab, and ABOVE Maeve.
I thought I remembered some mention that it was likely a power imbued into his armour (which was disguised under the glamour when he was appearing as an ogre).
And he was trying to stay in-character as an Ogre. It seems unlikely he'd demonstrate a Sidhe-only power when doing that...he didn't know how much Harry knew about the Fae (ie: very little), after all. It seems more likely to me that he was indeed counterspelling under the Glamour and using that to mimic an Ogre's natural immunity.Yes, the narration in the first confrontation with Grum notes that Ogres are particularly resistant to mortal magic, and some of the stronger ones are outright immune. This is before Harry ever throws his first spell, so clearly this is something expected of ogres.
I thought I remembered some mention that it was likely a power imbued into his armour (which was disguised under the glamour when he was appearing as an ogre).That's how the gamebook write up of Talos has it, yes.
There is no basis for this at all. There is not some threshold beyond which you are "basically immune to magic." Lord Raith directly and explicitly had something special going on with his immunity, and nobody once ever attributes it to something like, "He's the leader of a nation, so of course he has it."But not, apparently, immune to a Wizard's Death Curse.
But not, apparently, immune to a Wizard's Death Curse.
But not, apparently, immune to a Wizard's Death Curse.
By canny and indirect formulation of a spell, a wizard my have it bypass even an ogre or similar creature's immunity to magic, directing his spell not to smash or burn or tear apart his target, but instead to hurl a large object, ignite mundane incendiaries, or fill the air with grains of sande whirling around his target until those miniscule grains of sand wear them away in an entirely mundane fashion, barring the magic that keeps them aloft.Exactly this. I had a player successfully attack a Grendelkin this way. Turns out spell immunity won't stop a tree from flying at your face.
If somebody's so tough against magic that they deserve armour 20 and forty extra stress boxes against it, you might as well just give them the Immunity Power.
But if somebody comes up with a big enough spell, maybe that Immunity will fail.
This would normally be mechanically impossible, but Aspects can do anything.
I'd like to steer things back on track to my original post, though... what are people's thoughts about the whole 'living threshold' thing? how about applying the threshold mechanics to a character? I'm a big fan of using existing mechanics, even in unusual circumstances.A threshold is essentially an area block with a defined border. Where do you imagine defining the border for said living threshold? If it's your skin, I don't think it will be functionally different from a Toughness power which only affects magic. I suspect that's why people brought it up.
I'd also really love any input anyone has about how to handle this guy in a game, both positive and negative.
perhaps I'll write up a custom power for review... although the Might over Magic has given me lots to chew on. Has there been any thought of compiling all of the Custom Powers into a Spreadsheet/Website for easier viewing?