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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: HeadWound on December 02, 2012, 10:02:10 PM
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How many exchanges does it take to cast a thaumaturgical spell that is equal to or less than the characters lore rating? Something like opening a way, or even just executing a maneuver.
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One turn, if his Discipline and Conviction are high enough.
Conviction represents how much power he can put in at once, so if that's equal to his Lore, then he can potentially do it in one roll (using Discipline for the roll). Focus items and mental stress and such can be used to speed this up, if necessary.
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Thanks, glad you answered in turns instead of exchanges :)
That is what we thought, but just wanted ask to be sure.
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One or more minutes. Alternatively, some number of exchanges representing time not less than one minute.
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Nope. We have seen thaumaturgy used fast enough for single combat exchanges. Even fast enough for its effects to intercept projectiles that would kill the caster if it took more than a fraction of a second to work the spell.
Generally speaking, a spell that requires a magic circle or other thaumaturgic frame needs 1 exchange to set the circle/frame, 1 exchange to set the complexity of the thaumaturgic construct and 1 exchange to call and control the power needing to cast it (assuming you can do everything in the minimum time). Such spells are usually the complex thaumaturgies like summoning, conjuration, warding, necromancy.
However, a spell that doesn't require a basic construct could be done in a single exchange, thaumaturgy or no thaumaturgy or even as a readied action. Such spells would be primarily Worldwalking and Transformation/Disruption, as seen multiple times in the books. For example, Harry Dresden opens a gateway between himself and a falling ceiling so the falling ceiling drops into the gateway and doesn't crush him. Listens to Wind shapechanges equally fast and some people can throw curses mid-combat (that aren't death curses)
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Unless, of course, you read and pay attention to YS (ie. the rules), and the explicit statement therein supporting what I said. Of course, if you're dealing with houserules, you can have it take as much or as little time as you like.
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As soon as you take up sponsored magic, you can evothaum, and the whole thing is moot. I am also pretty open to "self sponsoring" as a way to describe someone who has become extremely specialized in something. I think Sanctaphrax has something like that in the custom power list.
For thaum in conflict, I would always give it at least some disadvantage, mostly regarding time. So if you have a thaumaturgy ritual, that you can control in one exchange, I would have the effect go off just before the casters action in the next exchange. The whole rest of the time, he has to be focused on the ritual, and his defense drops to mediocre automatically (you can't really dodge when you are standing in a circle drawing in magical energy). If he is hit for at least one shift of stress (or maybe with a maneuver), the ritual will instantly go towards fallout. Fine with small rituals, but if you try to do something big, and you are in the third exchange and have already gathered a good amount of power, it is going to be bad.
Also, I would probably require you to put up a circle aspect first. If you don't, you could offset it by increasing the complexity of the spell by 2.
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Actually, given the example of Harry trying to channel energy for a Thaumaturgic Ritual due to something banging on the door, I believe it actually said exchanges--see YS271."Harry is ready to cast a spell with a complexity of 10. With his Conviction of Superb he can channel 5 shifts of power per exchange easily...Jim can play it safe and divide it up into 10 separate rolls...but that's 10 exchanges and with the thing hammering at his door he's not sure Harry had that kind of time. Jim tries to wrap it up in three exchanges..."
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The rules explicitly require at least one minute.
Houserule as you will.
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The rules explicitly require at least one minute.
Houserule as you will.
No need to houserule. The rules also say that an exchange reflects enough time for an action - from a few moments to a minute. So that hypothetical "minute" can be a single exchange.
That's on top of having seen people in the books (harry included) opening gateways or shapeshifting via magic or doing location or communication spells in a few moments or even instantly.
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So, you've changed your mind, Belial?
One or more minutes. Alternatively, some number of exchanges representing time not less than one minute.
Nope.[...]
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No. I'm just pointing out how ineffectual it would be to insist to the "one minute" of rules-as-written when the same rules say that an exchange is not a fixed amount of time. Any player could say that their exchange is a minute long if they wanted to if we stuck to the letter of the rules.
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No, they couldn't. Individual players do not independantly determine the length of their exchanges, and even less so for individual exchanges.
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But does your "rules-as-written" say so?
Besides, it's not as if one using thaumaturgy in combat has to cast it in combat too. Triggered spells -spells cast in advance and set to activate on specific conditions- are doable. A wizard in his sanctum that has a couple hundred landmines and triggered effects set up could hold off entire armies. A guy that has cast five-six runes on his axe that, for example, deflect enemy attacks when triggered could hold his/her own against a much more powerful opponent for a time.
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"No less than a minute" makes little sense given what we're shown as examples in the game books, and the regular books. If you needed at least a minute to cast any kind of thaumaturgic spell, Harry would be dead at least twice over--no getting up a circle in Storm Front to protect him from the frog demon, no setting up the ritual to have the ghosts kill the Red Court in Grave Peril.
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"No less than a minute" makes little sense given what we're shown as examples in the game books, and the regular books. If you needed at least a minute to cast any kind of thaumaturgic spell, Harry would be dead at least twice over--no getting up a circle in Storm Front to protect him from the frog demon, no setting up the ritual to have the ghosts kill the Red Court in Grave Peril.
At which point I reiterate: houserule as you will. YS is explicitly clear on this point, though.
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The issue though is that, RAW, Thaumaturgy could have been done in the past, and it is that you are releasing it in that instant.
I assume you are referencing this part Tedronai:
The first is a matter of time. Thaumaturgy is a slow art, with the fastest of spells taking a minute or more, and many taking much longer than that. Patience is necessary; speed is being traded for versatility and potency.
However that is not a rules portion of the book. There is nothing in there that says they have to and it is not putting a limitation on it. What actually matters is this part:
3. When the complexity deficit is met, you can move into actually casting the ritual. The casting process is identical to the process for evocation. Choose an amount of power to funnel into the spell and roll Discipline to control that energy, with any uncontrolled shifts potentially becoming backlash or fallout. Unlike evocation, so long as you continue to make your Discipline rolls, you can continue to funnel power into the spell in successive rounds of casting. When the power in the spell equals the complexity, you’ve successfully cast it.
Which states that the Thaum goes off as soon as you get the power to equal complexity. So someone could do a thaumaturgic ritual fairly quickly, if it is of low enough power. However it has much greater chance of backlash if you do it quickly because you are supposed to be taking your time.
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The issue though is that, RAW, Thaumaturgy could have been done in the past, and it is that you are releasing it in that instant.
Irrelevant to this discussion regarding how long thaumaturgy takes to 'do'.
However that is not a rules portion of the book.
So your argument amounts to "that's not a real rule". Good to know.
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Irrelevant to this discussion regarding how long thaumaturgy takes to 'do'.
So your argument amounts to "that's not a real rule". Good to know.
It's not presented as a rule, so the argument is "Not a rule at all". But that isn't really relevant, because:
There is an explicit rule that everyone gets to act once per exchange.
There is an explicit rule that you can draw up power once per exchange.
There is an explicit rule that once power meets complexity, the casting is complete and takes immediate effect.
So, unlike some of the preparation for some spells, which may or may not fit in an exchange but are often measured in longer time periods, the actual final casting could happen in the interval of a single exchange. How long that is will be dictated by how long your exchanges are, but those exchanges should be long enough to accommodate drawing up one package of power or you are stepping into house rules territory.
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I'm not clear on this concept you're using 'not presented as a rule'. Maybe you could explain it in a way that doesn't sound like 'because I say so'?
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Pretty sure I did. I quoted the book. The first part talks about thaumaturgy. The second states the rules for casting it.
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You're both correct if you look at all options. Standard thaumaturgy takes at least one non-combat exchange - a minute or so. The slow draw of power is the price you pay for avoiding mental stress. On the other hand, some sponsored thaumaturgy allows evocation's speed - it can be done at combat speeds.
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No, they couldn't. Individual players do not independantly determine the length of their exchanges, and even less so for individual exchanges.
Umm, quote please? Because the rules say an exchange is the amount of time that allows players to act at least once. If a player chooses to take a longer action then the exchange lasts that long. For example, someone running 5 zones (several parking lots worth of distance) takes a lot less "real" time than someone throwing a punch or shooting a gun. And yet, both actions happen in the same round - and the guy punching or shooting doesn't get to punch or shoot more than once just because his action takes a second while running that far would take the other guy half a minute.
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You know what's a great action? Building a thermonuclear warhead from scratch. I know my Crafts skill isn't all that great, but I'll just take hits on the time chart to make up the difference. It should only take a few decades of work. So, yeah, what's everyone else doing this exchange?
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You're both correct if you look at all options. Standard thaumaturgy takes at least one non-combat exchange - a minute or so. The slow draw of power is the price you pay for avoiding mental stress. On the other hand, some sponsored thaumaturgy allows evocation's speed - it can be done at combat speeds.
The thing is, with respect, that you might be confusing what you call "standard" thaumaturgy and apply it across the board to everything. If anything, I believe your statement is incomplete. Not only does your reference to Sponsored Magic apply, but the emergency "holy crap I gotta rush this spell" thaumaturgy also applies. Without that, it sounds like you're removing the option for players to rush a thaumaturgic ritual if they so chose.
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Without that, it sounds like you're removing the option for players to rush a thaumaturgic ritual if they so chose.
Am I removing said option or are you injecting it? Even the book's example of rushed thaumaturgy takes three rounds after preparation.
Perhaps more importantly, how are you setting up the symbolic links that quickly? They're not optional.
From a metagame point of view, is there any reason to take evocation if you can use thaumaturgy at evocation's speed? Particularly since you avoid taking mental stress for low powered spells. May as well ignore evocation once you remove thaumaturgy's limitations.
Sponsored magic gets around some of the limitations - but it has it's own debt driven limits. :)
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From a metagame point of view, is there any reason to take evocation if you can use thaumaturgy at evocation's speed?
Of course there is. Even the most powerful thaumaturgist can only call as much power as his conviction in an exchange - there isn't a way to boost thaumaturgy's power, only its complexity. And thaumaturgy attacks don't have weapon rating - they're just attack rolls.
Now, compare with a feet-in-the-water focused practitioner with Conviction 4, Discipline 4 and a +2 control focus, pretty much the weakest evocation-based caster you can build that's actually focused on his magic. He gets +6 attack roll (the absolute best a thaumaturgist would ever get) and also gets a weapon rating 4. The weakest evocation-user can deal 4 more stress than the strongest thaumaturgy user... and the thaumaturgy user still needs sympathetic links if he wants to directly affect people. As for what a really powerful evocation-focused caster could do in a round... I'm currently playing a pretty strong warlock. She can do Weapon 16, Attack +16 spells as rotes. If she really pushes it, she could level a dozen skyscrapers in one blow or rip apart a small army.
Even the book's example of rushed thaumaturgy takes three rounds after preparation.
Because it still is a strong spell for a rushed thaumaturgy and it takes 3 exchanges to control the power. When we're talking about one-round thaumaturgies, we mean 3-4 shifts for most casters.
Particularly since you avoid taking mental stress for low powered spells.
No you don't. Someone with Conviction 5, Lore 5, Discipline 4 who has a +2 control for a certain type of thaumaturgy will roll control at +6. When casting a 5-shift spell -- and offensively that's an attack roll of 5 with a weapon rating of 0 -- he will fail his control roll 1 time out of 3. So he either takes backlash (stress) or the spell goes to fallout, which can still cause him stress. Only powerful casters could ever cast rushed thaumaturgy without stress... and it would still be inferior to other powers or weapons (or even unarmed attacks) in direct combat.
Perhaps more importantly, how are you setting up the symbolic links that quickly? They're not optional.
Symbolic links are, of course, still needed. But they aren't always necessary. Area illusions and Wardings don't need them because you're (persumably) already touching the area you want to cover. Similarly for worldwalking or shapechanging because you're affecting yourself (and presumably you have access to yourself - if not, seek special care). But almost everything else? Yes, needs a sympathetic link.
All of the above combined means that, while you can do combat thaumaturgies, such types of spells are impractical. A martial artist will be hitting harder in combat than a thaumaturgist, will run no risk to take stress, and doesn't need a sympathetic link to harm the target.
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No you don't. Someone with Conviction 5, Lore 5, Discipline 4 who has a +2 control for a certain type of thaumaturgy will roll control at +6. When casting a 5-shift spell -- and offensively that's an attack roll of 5 with a weapon rating of 0 -- he will fail his control roll 1 time out of 3. So he either takes backlash (stress) or the spell goes to fallout, which can still cause him stress. Only powerful casters could ever cast rushed thaumaturgy without stress... and it would still be inferior to other powers or weapons (or even unarmed attacks) in direct combat.
Symbolic links are, of course, still needed. But they aren't always necessary. Area illusions and Wardings don't need them because you're (persumably) already touching the area you want to cover. Similarly for worldwalking or shapechanging because you're affecting yourself (and presumably you have access to yourself - if not, seek special care). But almost everything else? Yes, needs a sympathetic link.
What if it's a Rote spell (possibly because it's thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of evocation)?
Also, to everyone who mentions drawing the circle: just use the irises of your eyes. Pew, pew, eye lasers.
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Also, to everyone who mentions drawing the circle: just use the irises of your eyes. Pew, pew, eye lasers.
My character actually has a collapsible hula hoop he carries around as a focus item. :)
Inlaid with copper and various runes, of course.
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I'll need address most of your comments later Belial. One error does stick out however - symbolic links are not optional for normal thaumaturgy. They are one of the specific limitations called out in the book.
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I'll need address most of your comments later Belial. One error does stick out however - symbolic links are not optional for normal thaumaturgy. They are one of the specific limitations called out in the book.
What's the symbolic link necessary for a veil? Or opening a Way?
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Also, to everyone who mentions drawing the circle: just use the irises of your eyes. Pew, pew, eye lasers.
I'd rather not have the fallout start burning out my eyes, thank you.
Still, you could do a discipline maneuver and imagine a circle (which would have similar problems as above, only a few inches behind your eyes). Would take longer, but it is doable. Or you could declare a circle. If you look around, the world is filled with circles, even on the ground. Patterns in stone floors, sometimes round add posters are glued to the floor (and wouldn't it be perfect to kill the ghost with a circle made on an add for a new horror movie?), and so forth.
What's the symbolic link necessary for a veil? Or opening a Way?
For opening a way, that would most certainly be the place you are doing the ritual in. That's why Harry doesn't just rip open the way to Edinburgh in his apartment, he walks quite some time in Chicago first, to get to the right spot.
A veil might be a bit more problematic, because pretty much all the time we see it used is as an evocation. I guess, since it is a spell you cast on yourself, you pretty much are the symbolic link. Maybe it is never really a thaumaturgic spell, since even the books suggest to not give a veil a duration, just have it last until pierced. Veils in general are an odd thing.
I think self-shapechanging needs a symbolic link, not of yourself, but of whatever you want to shapechange into.
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What's the symbolic link necessary for a veil? Or opening a Way?
Wrong question. ;)
What the link is doesn't matter as long as it makes sense to the group. The rules only specify the requirement.
If you want examples, I'd suggest a bowl of water for a fog based veil, a drawing matching an illusion, and a piece of road from an intersection to open a path to the Nevernever. They're just possibilities though - other symbols may fit your group better.
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For opening a way, that would most certainly be the place you are doing the ritual in. That's why Harry doesn't just rip open the way to Edinburgh in his apartment, he walks quite some time in Chicago first, to get to the right spot.
Not really. Harry can--and does--open ways on the fly in places that aren't used for Ways. It seems to be the case that a wizard can open a Way anywhere (and the book backs this up, with a difficulty set for opening a Way in a place that's not normally used). He opens one completely on the fly in Changes, for example (in the space of a couple seconds, at that).
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Not really. Harry can--and does--open ways on the fly in places that aren't used for Ways. It seems to be the case that a wizard can open a Way anywhere (and the book backs this up, with a difficulty set for opening a Way in a place that's not normally used). He opens one completely on the fly in Changes, for example (in the space of a couple seconds, at that).
Sure, opening the way is the spell itself, but the "where to" is where the symbolic link comes in. Certain parts of our world connect (symbolically) to certain parts of the nevernever. It is possible (as demonstrated by various supernatural entities) to open a way do a different place, but I think Harry is far from knowing how to.
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The normal symbolic links for opening a way, veils, healing, conjurations and illusions are the targets themselves.
As for Evocation vs Thaumaturgy. At equal power, Thaumaturgy attacks are pathetic compared to Evocation attacks, a Thaumaturgy Wards are immobile and need an anchor as compared to Evocation Blocks. Also, Thaum doesn't get Rote spells, so is less reliable. Thaumaturgical spells, even when only relying on implicit trivial preparation, still HAVE preparation that can be futzed with or taken advantage of (consider invoking for effect a "gusty wind" aspect when Harry goes to pull off his salt circle quick thaum. If he were using evocation, his spell wouldn't be vulnerable to that interruption).
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Even the most powerful thaumaturgist can only call as much power as his conviction in an exchange - there isn't a way to boost thaumaturgy's power, only its complexity.
Power is controlled with Discipline not conviction. (YS262)
And thaumaturgy attacks don't have weapon rating - they're just attack rolls.
Think you have this backwards - the spell's complexity has to account for the victim's resistance and any other obstructions. In other words, it's all "weapon rating" - the rolls are just to see if you screw up and can be spread out over time.
Now, compare with a feet-in-the-water focused practitioner with Conviction 4, Discipline 4 and a +2 control focus, pretty much the weakest evocation-based caster you can build that's actually focused on his magic. He gets +6 attack roll (the absolute best a thaumaturgist would ever get) and also gets a weapon rating 4. The weakest evocation-user can deal 4 more stress than the strongest thaumaturgy user... and the thaumaturgy user still needs sympathetic links if he wants to directly affect people. As for what a really powerful evocation-focused caster could do in a round... I'm currently playing a pretty strong warlock. She can do Weapon 16, Attack +16 spells as rotes. If she really pushes it, she could level a dozen skyscrapers in one blow or rip apart a small army.
One of the more...broken...builds is a thaumaturgist, specifically a potion crafter. You can hit double Lore plus focus...not going to match the addition of dice an evoker gets on a good roll but also won't have the bad rolls affecting power.
Because it still is a strong spell for a rushed thaumaturgy and it takes 3 exchanges to control the power. When we're talking about one-round thaumaturgies, we mean 3-4 shifts for most casters.
Ok - you're still (usually) going to need to set up a symbolic link. Assuming you can do so in one round (questionable) you could cast a weak spell every other round...so weak it's easily resisted.
No you don't. Someone with Conviction 5, Lore 5, Discipline 4 who has a +2 control for a certain type of thaumaturgy will roll control at +6. When casting a 5-shift spell -- and offensively that's an attack roll of 5 with a weapon rating of 0 -- he will fail his control roll 1 time out of 3. So he either takes backlash (stress) or the spell goes to fallout, which can still cause him stress. Only powerful casters could ever cast rushed thaumaturgy without stress... and it would still be inferior to other powers or weapons (or even unarmed attacks) in direct combat.
Eh...don't push it and keep a tag in your pocket for bad rolls. Both evokers and thaumaturgists should do so! They have the same issue after all. ;)
A careful thaumaturgist won't need to take stress from casting. Just have a Focused Mind and a Memorized Ritual (Discipline and Lore Declarations) ready to go at need. (Best to be a bit more creative with declarations but hey - it's late! :) )
Symbolic links are, of course, still needed.
Yes - addressed this earlier...and below to a degree.
All of the above combined means that, while you can do combat thaumaturgies, such types of spells are impractical. A martial artist will be hitting harder in combat than a thaumaturgist, will run no risk to take stress, and doesn't need a sympathetic link to harm the target.
I pretty much agree with you here...just not convinced the symbolic links are practical to set up at combat speeds. I think we agree on the result - just differ on a few details.
The normal symbolic links for opening a way, veils, healing, conjurations and illusions are the targets themselves.
Unless you have the target itself with you, you need a representative symbol to target with thaumaturgy.
"In order to affect a target at great range (whether in physical distance or some other dimension), some sort of link must be established to that target via symbolic representations, the incorporation of recently-separated bits of the target (blood, hair, a family keepsake), and so on. Without these physical materials on hand to represent the target in absentia—as well as for anchoring
the purpose of the spell to the ritual—a thaumaturgic spell simply has nowhere to go and nothing to do." (YS261)
Having the target(s) at hand get's around the requirement if you only needed one target. Elaine's Reiki Healing Spell is an example.
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Unless you have the target itself with you, you need a representative symbol to target with thaumaturgy.
"In order to affect a target at great range (whether in physical distance or some other dimension), some sort of link must be established to that target via symbolic representations, the incorporation of recently-separated bits of the target (blood, hair, a family keepsake), and so on. Without these physical materials on hand to represent the target in absentia—as well as for anchoring
the purpose of the spell to the ritual—a thaumaturgic spell simply has nowhere to go and nothing to do." (YS261)
Having the target(s) at hand get's around the requirement if you only needed one target. Elaine's Reiki Healing Spell is an example.
Exactly, for the spells people were confused about, the normal casting of those spells has the target as the symbolic link. You normally create wards at the site of the ward, you normally create illusions in your own vicinity, you normally veil things that are at hand, and you normally heal things at hand, and you normally rip a hole in the local reality to open a way. So, the normal symbolic link for all of these spells is the target, andif you don't have the target at hand, you end up needing to get creative with regards to symbolic links.
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Power is controlled with Discipline not conviction. (YS262)
Minor nitpick; power is controlled with Discipline - but you still can't call more power per exchange in thaumaturgy than your conviction. So a thaumaturgist that has Discipline 6, a +6 control focus for his favorite type of thaumaturgy and a +2 control specialization for it gets to roll 4dF+16. But regardless of his roll, if his conviction is a measly 3, he only gets 3 shifts of power per round. And since you can't boost your Power for the purposes of Thaumaturgy at all, even the most powerful practitioners will get 5-6 power per round, period.
One of the more...broken...builds is a thaumaturgist, specifically a potion crafter. You can hit double Lore plus focus...not going to match the addition of dice an evoker gets on a good roll but also won't have the bad rolls affecting power.
Sure. Until someone blocks/grapples you. You will usually roll only your Discipline to attack or use items so you have even chances to overcome the block of an equally skilled unarmed mortal, less than 40% chances to overcome the block of someone with True Aim or other +1 bonus to his skill, less than 30% chance to overcome the block of a vampire Inciting your emotions or a tentacled horror with +2 to grabs due to tentacles, and no chance whatsoever against an Evoker dropping a 10-shift block. That same evoker is going to burn through each and every one of those blocks without any chance of failure unless facing an equally powerful evoker's block.
Then there's thresholds. All magic diminishes in both attack and power equal to the threshold. A weapon 10, attack 10 evocation attack is going to become weapon 8 attack 8 against a fair threshold. An artificer shooting his magic wand at weapon 10 attack 5 is going to find himself with weapon 8 attack 3... which is a proportionately much larger power loss because lots of people will dodge a 3-shift attack while almost nobody will dodge an 8-shift one.
Then there's the "I aim at the fruity wooden wand the guy's using".
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Minor nitpick; power is controlled with Discipline - but you still can't call more power per exchange in thaumaturgy than your conviction.
Not true at all. The Conviction is how much you can call per round without taking stress. You can call more than that at the cost of one stress per shift.
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Wouldn't SEEING your target be enough of a link?
"In order to affect a target at great range (whether in physical distance or some other dimension), some sort of link must be established to that target via symbolic representations, the incorporation of recently-separated bits of the target (blood, hair, a family keepsake), and so on. Without these physical materials on hand to represent the target in absentia—as well as for anchoring
the purpose of the spell to the ritual—a thaumaturgic spell simply has nowhere to go and nothing to do." (YS261)
Bolded mine, obviously. Combat situations don't usually involve great range or multiple dimensions. Which is why things like Worldwalking and veils work...you're right there. The target is present in front of you. This is why evocation doesn't work when there is no target - it's the inherent limitation of evocation. The opposite is not true of Thaumaturgy. No need for symbolic links when the REAL link is standing right there.