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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Magicpockets on November 26, 2012, 01:22:34 PM

Title: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: Magicpockets on November 26, 2012, 01:22:34 PM
Hello all,
I've got a question for you: How do WCV procreate? Specifically, which of the following options are possible:
a) Father WCV, Mother Human/Wizard: this has already been established in the books, specifically
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b) Mother WCV, Father Human: there's no instance in the book hinting at it, but I guess it could be possible. Being pregnant might be a vulnerability that no female WCV will be willing to accept though.
c) Both parents WCV: The books hint at
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, although I might be reading that wrong.

The reason I'm asking is that I'm currently writing the background for my WCV PC, and I'm kinda stuck on the parents part.
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: ways and means on November 26, 2012, 01:59:11 PM
They totally have sex.
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: Magicpockets on November 26, 2012, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: ways and means on November 26, 2012, 01:59:11 PM
They totally have sex.

That much is clear. What I'd like to know is the nature of the partners involved. Specifically:
a) WC male + mortal female or
b) WC female + mortal male or
c) WC male + WC female

Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: Haru on November 26, 2012, 02:23:03 PM
I believe A is the most common, if not only way the white court works. But with everything we don't have much information about: this is nothing but speculation. Still, it makes sense to me. Wizards are probably the most sought after mothers, since they can potentially make wizard babies. Also, the kids can be used as cats paws against the white council. And lastly, they probably make the hunt more satisfying. It's one thing to pick up any woman and impregnate her. It is another to get a victim that knows what's going on.

I think B might run into a problem with the whole "mother's love" thing. WCV are, after all, extremely close to humans, and it can't be healthy to have the object of your love growing inside you. Then again, this might be a great thing for a backstory, maybe that love is enough to kill the hunger de on in a female WCV. Which would mean that Daddy Raith is going to keep his daughters from getting pregnant.

On C, I don't think that's what's happening there.
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Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: DragonEyes on November 26, 2012, 03:09:44 PM
Jim specifically addressed the love of a parent to child as not insulating the child from Wampires. It's not a love between equals. If B is possible, I think it would have to be during the mortal lifetime of the Wampire, mostly because of menopause. It's possible that Wampire females remain fertile by producing new eggs, but I would suspect that isn't the case.

I don't think C is possible. They probably need mortals to procreate. I think a great number of creatures in the DV need mortals for procreation. The creation of new life is probably closely tied to mortality. Jim said somewhere that Mab could replenish her ranks relatively quickly, but it was through the use of changelings. I'm sure there are some creatures that do not use this method to reproduce, but we haven't seen any evidence of that.
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: Mr. Death on November 26, 2012, 09:12:33 PM
Considering Cesarina Malvora is directly referenced as being Vittorio Malvora's mother, I think it's safe to say that both male and female White Court Vampires are fertile.
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on November 26, 2012, 10:05:38 PM
In more general terms:
A White Court Vampire is involved in the conception of a child.  We could be talking as mother or father, but I'm guessing that conception isn't as easy when the White Court is involved as it is among norms.  Basing that guess off the fact that Thomas isn't a father yet and he never uses protection.

At least he didn't all those times he was practically jumped by horny females while he was living with his brother.  Most of those times it seemed that he barely had time to get his pants off.

Maybe special circumstances are needed.  Maybe the White Court Vampire has to put a real effort into conceiving a child - spending a lot of power, doing a weird rite, whatever.  Or maybe they just aren't that fertile (like Amberites).

But somehow a child is born.  It's a normal child until it hits mid to late adolescence, then the demon stirs inside it and it becomes what the games labels as a White Court Virgin.  Then (usually shortly thereafter) the person gives into his urges and loses the word "virgin" from his high concept OR (more rarely) has a first feeding that kills its demonic half.

White Court Vampires have to plan out the increase in the size of their court about 20 years or so before they need the new WCV to show up, which means that the battle (um, slaughter) in the depths will cost them dearly for the current run of the books... Maybe the BAT will focus on a mass of teenage WCV coming into their powers?

Richard
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 26, 2012, 10:10:48 PM
Are we sure that Thomas isn't a father?
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: Mr. Death on November 26, 2012, 10:22:22 PM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on November 26, 2012, 10:10:48 PM
Are we sure that Thomas isn't a father?
I don't think we are; I think we would've heard something by now if he was, though. At least, if he knew about it. And if he was, well, I don't imagine Papa Raith would've just sat by and left the kid alone, either.

Personally, I've been under the impression that the White Court has some measure of control over whether the coupling results in a child or not. Maybe something to do with their Hunger either allowing or disallowing the fertilization to happen.
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: Arjan on November 26, 2012, 10:42:14 PM
Quote from: Mr. Death on November 26, 2012, 10:22:22 PM
I don't think we are; I think we would've heard something by now if he was, though. At least, if he knew about it. And if he was, well, I don't imagine Papa Raith would've just sat by and left the kid alone, either.

Personally, I've been under the impression that the White Court has some measure of control over whether the coupling results in a child or not. Maybe something to do with their Hunger either allowing or disallowing the fertilization to happen.

An unsuspecting single mother with an ignorant child that turns out to be a white court vampire is a recipe for disaster.
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on November 26, 2012, 10:53:36 PM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on November 26, 2012, 10:10:48 PM
Are we sure that Thomas isn't a father?

We can't 100% sure of that - but from the novels it's clear that neither Thomas nor his family think that Thomas is a father.  Why would Justine be used as a hostage if they could use his own child for that purpose?

Nor is there the vibe that Thomas is seen as some sort of freak because he doesn't have any kids yet.  Then there's how few siblings that Thomas has - if procreation was easy for the White Court then he should have dozens more from the days before contraceptives became easily available.

But who knows? Maybe the next book will involve Harry stumbling over Thomas' long lost son and... no, I can't see that happening.  It's too close to part of the plot of another book.

Richard
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 26, 2012, 10:55:46 PM
I doubt Thomas's kid would be much of a hostage. He's never met them, they aren't anybody to him unless he shares Harry's slightly odd worldview.

Good points about the rest though.
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: Mr. Death on November 26, 2012, 11:32:13 PM
Quote from: Richard_Chilton on November 26, 2012, 10:53:36 PM
Then there's how few siblings that Thomas has - if procreation was easy for the White Court then he should have dozens more from the days before contraceptives became easily available.
Not really. Thomas does seem to have a whole bunch of sisters running around (at least three for sure in Turn Coat, likely that much of the rest of Lara's entourage in the climax is likewise), and we have an explanation for the lack of brothers: Lord Raith kills them.

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on November 26, 2012, 10:55:46 PM
I doubt Thomas's kid would be much of a hostage. He's never met them, they aren't anybody to him unless he shares Harry's slightly odd worldview.
I'm not sure I would call that sort of thing odd for Thomas. I mean, Harry was nobody to him before they met, and he cared enough to go out of his way to help him. Given everything we've seen of Thomas, he seems the type to me to be very concerned about his own progeny, probably because his own father was a dick.
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on November 27, 2012, 12:40:56 AM
Quote from: Mr. Death on November 26, 2012, 11:32:13 PM
Not really. Thomas does seem to have a whole bunch of sisters running around (at least three for sure in Turn Coat, likely that much of the rest of Lara's entourage in the climax is likewise), and we have an explanation for the lack of brothers: Lord Raith kills them.

From Blood Rites there's the impression that there was never hundreds of children, which would means less than one a year for Lord Raith.  As for sisters, five of them were around their father's throne in White Night.  I think that was a show of family support - so all of them should have been there.

Richard
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 27, 2012, 01:36:38 AM
Eh, maybe I'm misreading Thomas. Maybe he would care. But I think he cares way more about Justine than about his hypothetical children.

And yeah, Harry specifically mentions that Lord Raith had rather less children than you'd expect from his age and nature.
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: amberpup on November 29, 2012, 03:00:42 AM
Not putting any bets on my memory, but thinking I remember Thomas talking about some brothers that dear old dad had killed because they where eyeing his throne. As for his sisters, Daddy Raith broke each to varies degrees, so they were a bit safer. Which makes a little sense, since a pregnant daughter is easier to keep watch for, which a son could be creating a army (*) of his own children behind your back. 

(*) When I say army, I'm more talking alike 6 to 10 white court vamps even if it did take twenty years to do so.
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: Rougarou on November 29, 2012, 07:54:06 AM
Lord Raith killed ALL of his sons prior to Thomas when they were young. It wasn't because they were "eyeing the throne." It was because he's a paranoid old bastard and they might one day "eye the throne." And while the same may have been true of his daughters, he kept them in check by feeding on them, but he couldn't bring himself to do the same to his sons. Because according to Lord Raith, "Incest is okay, as long as it ain't gay." Not cool Lord Raith... not cool.
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: amberpup on November 29, 2012, 03:09:23 PM
Quote from: Rougarou on November 29, 2012, 07:54:06 AM
Lord Raith killed ALL of his sons prior to Thomas when they were young. It wasn't because they were "eyeing the throne." It was because he's a paranoid old bastard and they might one day "eye the throne." And while the same may have been true of his daughters, he kept them in check by feeding on them, but he couldn't bring himself to do the same to his sons. Because according to Lord Raith, "Incest is okay, as long as it ain't gay." Not cool Lord Raith... not cool.

One could argue with the level of Lord Raith paranoia, merely being born male was enough to be considered 'eyeing his throne'. Which can only mean Margaret Gwendolyn LeFey was one hell of a woman to keep his paranoia at bay enough to keep Thomas alive all these years. But at least, baby-sister is going to be her own person since Daddy Raith never got his fangs into her.
Title: Re: How do White Court Vampires procreate?
Post by: Malraza on December 04, 2012, 05:51:04 AM
Jim has said that, if he was remembering correctly, Thomas has nine sisters including Lara. One of which is the equivalent of a crazy lady locked in the attic.