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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Haru on November 22, 2012, 04:30:28 PM
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Something just occurred to me, that I am not sure if it is viable, so I thought I'd get your opinions.
There's an example in the book, that I will use. It's about the thief who wants to pick a lock in the middle of a battle. He rolls discipline to place the aspect "focused" on himself, to get a better shot at the pick. However, an opposing gunslinger sees him and wants to keep him from placing the aspect, defending with guns against the maneuver.
So far so good. Now to add one element:
The thief has his own gunslinger with him, who put up a block prior to the thief trying to focus.
Now let's say the opposing gunslinger succeeded in defending against the maneuver, so the aspect would not be placed. The block though is even higher, so the thief could have used it to block a similar guns attack.
But could he use it to block the defense roll?
On the one hand, it would make sense, so I'm inclined to allow it. On the other hand, I'm not sure that it's intended that way.
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You cannot block defense rolls.
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I guess the block would only work if the Opposing gunslinger was trying to remove a pre-existing maneuver.
So theif uses concentration to place the maneuver "focused" and succeeds with a 5 shift roll
Enemy gunner fails to defend
Ally Gunner places a 6 shift block against incoming gun-fire.
Enemy gunner shoots at the theif with the purpose of removing the "focused" aspect. He has to beat a 6 shift block. If the block STR was lower, he'd have to beat the maneuver str.
Right?
Or Does the block reduce the shifts? If the enemy gunner got 8 shifts vs the "focused" maneuver, it'd only count as 3 because the block was 6?
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You can't use a block to prevent someone from making a defence roll.
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Right?
Right
Or Does the block reduce the shifts? If the enemy gunner got 8 shifts vs the "focused" maneuver, it'd only count as 3 because the block was 6?
A block only 'reduces shifts' where the defense roll (or target number) it supercedes would do so. In this case and most other cases, no, it does not.
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You can't use a block to prevent someone from making a defence roll.
That's what I was missing. Thank you, case closed.
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That's what I was missing. Thank you, case closed.
Since the case is closed, can I ask another question about blocks?
Can you block a spellcasters ability to control his spell?
example 1
I set up a block against a spell-caster at 5 shifts. He casts a Power 5 spell and blasts an ally with a discipline of 7. The ally dodges at 2 and uses the block of 5 as his defense instead. Therefore, the damage is 5 (weapon 5) +2 (7target role -5block str).
So I understand that:
Here's what I want to know:
I try to block his Control roll (maybe the block is something that is completely distracting him. I know that the control roll and the target role are the same roll, but they'd have different effects.
Example, same as above:
I set up a block against a spell-caster at 5 shifts. He casts a Power 5 spell and blasts an ally with a discipline of 7. Because the block was aimed at his control, it would reduce the effective control to 2. Meaning he'd have to take 3 shifts of backlash/fallout.
or a better example: he wants to cast a spell on himself (no targeting roll) just a control roll. If he beats the block, is there any detrimental effect on the spell at all?
Is there any way to make a wizard fail his control? (other than a compel)
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Because the block was aimed at his control, it would reduce the effective control to 2. Meaning he'd have to take 3 shifts of backlash/fallout.
See my post above. The block does not reduce the effect of the roll unless the roll or value it supercedes would do so. The Power of a spell does not reduce the Control of a spell, so even if you managed to get a block against the Control of a spell, that block would not reduce that Control for the purpose of comparing it to the Power. Moreover, you do not compare a roll both to a block and to the value the block supercedes. You compare only to the higher of the two values.
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Under the same logic as above, isn't the control part of the discipline roll basically a defense roll by the wizard against his own spell?
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Under the same logic as above, isn't the control part of the discipline roll basically a defense roll by the wizard against his own spell?
Meaning since you can't block a defense neither can you block the control. Makes sense.
It seems like there's no way to reduce the power of a spell(other than a threshold) nor is there a way to make a wizard "miscast" his spell.
I'm good. Thanks.
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Under the same logic as above, isn't the control part of the discipline roll basically a defense roll by the wizard against his own spell?
Is it? I mean excess shifts go into targeting which translates to damage which is offensive.
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Is it? I mean excess shifts go into targeting which translates to damage which is offensive.
Not excess shifts. ALL shifts of the control roll also go into targetting. Because they're the same roll.
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Ok, but that doesn't change the fact that the targeting is an offensive action.
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It's both, that's the problem. Part of the discipline roll goes towards control, the other part goes towards targeting. You can block the targeting part, you can not block the control part.
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It's both, that's the problem. Part of the discipline roll goes towards control, the other part goes towards targeting. You can block the targeting part, you can not block the control part.
The text of the Grapple section implies otherwise. Harry muses that under a grapple, him casting even a low power spell would be a difficult to control as a high powered one, implying that a grapple would, indeed, block his control roll.
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The discipline roll is all offensive. It's just that if you mess that up you could easily hit yourself with the attack (internal backlash) or an ally (fallout). You are allowed to put blocks on this as per normal. I dont think that if they beat the block it reduces the roll (7 shift block 8 shift roll) but i could be wrong. EX:
If I put up a 5 shift block and the caster wants to cast a 5 shift attack.
They roll a 7, without the block they succeed and they do blow through the block but is it a total roll of 2 (7-5) thus inflicting 3 points of fallout/backlash or is it just that they blew through it and it deals as normal but with 2 points from targeting with the weapon 5?
This is my confusion, hopefully i worded this ok.
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You do not get to apply both the block AND the normal target number. Compare only to the higher of the two.
If the block is higher than the normal target number and the roll, whatever it is, beats the block value, then it is treated as if it had beat the normal target number by whatever margin by which it beat the block value for the purpose of calculating additional effects. Control has no additional effects, so it's just a matter of pass/fail. If the Control roll beats the block (assumign the block is higher than the Power), then the Control roll also beats the Power.
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If the attack value equals the block, the target takes stress equal to the weapon value. So a power 5 attack with 7 control / targeting will inflict no stress if the block is 8+, 5 stress if the block is 7, and 5+(7-block) stress if the block is less than the control / targeting roll. If the normal defense roll is higher than the block, use it instead.
Block or not, the control roll needs to be at least equal to the spell's power, 5 in this case. Else you head to the backlash / fallout rules. :)
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The text of the Grapple section implies otherwise. Harry muses that under a grapple, him casting even a low power spell would be a difficult to control as a high powered one, implying that a grapple would, indeed, block his control roll.
YS 212
"The
thug’s Might is Good (+3), and he rolls a +2
on the dice for a Superb (+5) grapple. Harry
is held. He decides that casting a spell while
grappled is too chancy, since the Superb grapple
blocks his target roll to control even a minor
evocation. Harry instead opts for the straightforward
approach: headbutting the thug. He
rolls Fists for this attack, but the outcome is less
than Superb. Harry remains held."
The bolded part is not mine. It's actually bolded in YS.
Edit: In the margins, p.212
"So even if I
was trying to
cast a, uh, Fair
spell, it’d be
as difficult as
trying to cast
a Superb one
when the block’s
that big?"
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That implies that the block would take away from the control/targeting
Ex: a 2 shift block would reduce the targeting by 2.
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I think it implies that you take whichever is higher.
So a 5 shift block on a Power 3 spell would require a 5 shift control roll as opposed to a 3 shift control roll.
What is not clear is what happens if you fail that control roll. What if I roll a 4 shift control, against 5 shift block on a power 3 spell?
How I've always done it is the spell just fails. But Does the spell just fail? When you normally fail a control roll, the spell still goes off but with unwanted consequences. So, with a block setting the new difficulty, does the spell succeed but with fallout/backlash? Would you take backlash equal to the difference you failed up to the power of the spell?
So if you rolled a 2 to control a power 3 spell, but there was a 5 shift block, you'd take 3 points of backlash/fallout.
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That implies that the block would take away from the control...
More specifically, a grapple will. Grapples block "all actions" (YS211) while standard blocks may only be used against a "specific type of action" for which you need "an appropriate skill" (YS210).
If you can justify a skill as appropriate you could presumably block control specifically...but I can't really think of any that fit by default.
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I think it implies that you take whichever is higher.
So a 5 shift block on a Power 3 spell would require a 5 shift control roll as opposed to a 3 shift control roll.
What is not clear is what happens if you fail that control roll. What if I roll a 4 shift control, against 5 shift block on a power 3 spell?
How I've always done it is the spell just fails. But Does the spell just fail? When you normally fail a control roll, the spell still goes off but with unwanted consequences. So, with a block setting the new difficulty, does the spell succeed but with fallout/backlash? Would you take backlash equal to the difference you failed up to the power of the spell?
So if you rolled a 2 to control a power 3 spell, but there was a 5 shift block, you'd take 3 points of backlash/fallout.
Yeah, I'd say it has to be either backlash or fallout in that case. Narratively speaking, though, the fallout on a roll like that might mean that the wizard controls the power, but can't hit his target (say, being grappled from behind, Harry lets loose with Fuego, but can't aim it, so it ends up going into one of the trees and setting that on fire).
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I think it implies that you take whichever is higher.
So a 5 shift block on a Power 3 spell would require a 5 shift control roll as opposed to a 3 shift control roll.
What is not clear is what happens if you fail that control roll. What if I roll a 4 shift control, against 5 shift block on a power 3 spell?
How I've always done it is the spell just fails. But Does the spell just fail? When you normally fail a control roll, the spell still goes off but with unwanted consequences. So, with a block setting the new difficulty, does the spell succeed but with fallout/backlash? Would you take backlash equal to the difference you failed up to the power of the spell?
So if you rolled a 2 to control a power 3 spell, but there was a 5 shift block, you'd take 3 points of backlash/fallout.
I think yes. Like the time Harry got grabbed by MacFinn and got magical backlash breaking out of it.
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I think yes. Like the time Harry got grabbed by MacFinn and got magical backlash breaking out of it.
Was just about to mention that