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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Erenthia on November 21, 2012, 03:47:59 AM

Title: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Erenthia on November 21, 2012, 03:47:59 AM: Ok. I am not new to rpgs. I've played D&D, WoD, Exalted, and others...but for some reason this system is really kicking my ass. To be fair, I haven't had a lot of time to dive into it, but I still feel that I should understand it better than I do.

So I'm trying to create a sorcerer (and a fairly powerful one) who has no facility for Evocation. Instead he has two basic tricks. One is that he's a damn prolific potion/item creator. The other is that his bloodline goes back to good old-fashion flying monks. But rather than being able to use those abilities all the time, I was hoping to give him a rote spell that let him invoke increase speed, toughness, super-jumping, etc but I don't really know the system well enough to stat that. (And I can't find mobility related powers anywhere other than wings). Basically the (mechanical) concept here is that he's even more about preparation than a wizard.

I'll check in on this thread tomorrow. Unfortunately I can't stay up any later.

Thanks
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Haru on November 21, 2012, 04:18:39 AM: Potions and items can easily be done with Ritual(Crafting), basically thaumaturgy, that only lets you create items.

For the spell that lets him transform, you can take "Human Form" and attach all those powers you want him to have to it. Then you define a clause that lets you use those powers. You say you want it to be a rote spell, but since that would be the only rote spell you would have, I would not take channeling or evocation, it's just too expansive for what you want to do. I would just say, that you need to spend one exchange casting a spell (which is narrative, not mechanical), and then you have access to the powers attached to Human Form for the scene.

You could even say, that you need a new spell for each power, so if you wanted to activate 3 powers, it would take you 3 exchanges to do so. In that case, I would probably grant you [+2] for the inconvenience.

You could even say, that you are using your potions/items to activate your powers. Again, I would not have you create any potions mechanically for that, it would just be part of the narrative and a good way to compel your character, by saying "Oops, you've run out of speed potion, so you can't activate it now." and get a fate point for it.
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 21, 2012, 05:06:35 AM: Item-making is easy enough to stat, but magic in this game doesn't do physical boosts all that well.

Boosting capabilities is complex, almost certainly too complex for Evocation. Which means that barring items or Sponsored Magic you can't use a buff spell in combat time. And even if you use an item or Sponsored Magic to get around that, you can't give yourself Powers unless you've spend Fate Points on them.

Haru's Human Form suggestion is a good one. If I were you I'd take it. The Human Form Power normally involves shapeshifting, of course, but you can ignore that or avoid the issue entirely with a non-canon Power like Limitation or Magical Self-Enhancement.
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: sinker on November 22, 2012, 05:16:42 AM: Additionally if you don't want to actually sprout wings then you could always boost the athletics skill (via aspects, thaum skill replacement or at the most extreme beast change) in order to "jump good".
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Erenthia on November 22, 2012, 09:06:26 PM: Ok, I very much like the idea of Human Form, thank you. As far as Wuxia "flying" goes my first instinct was to just "Wings" and say that the benefit of not having giant wings sticking out his back is balanced by the fact that he has to land every so often, but I'm too new to the system to know if that's a fair trade or not. I should have considered it, what with the Alphas being described as "wizards who only know a single spell"

Now, as far as the Item creating goes, I know its straitforward but I do want to make sure I do it justice. While the Wuxia aspect was more difficult to stat, it's actually a lesser part of the characters concept. His high concept is, "Truemaker" It's an interesting little legend I came up with about how, when Noah was building the ark he discovered he wasn't going to finish in time, until one of the Nephalim decided to help him, even though he didn't believe a flood was coming. He just thought the idea of a structure that large was worth creating for its own sake. For his help he earned a spot on the ark, but with the caveat that he would never be remembered (by history, not that he was forgotten by the people who knew him). This carried on throughout his bloodline. So now if there's a legendary artifact of enormous power people always suspect a Truemaker had something to do with it (at least if they don't know where it came from)

So obviously I want his magical constructions to be numerous and powerful (this probably means the Wuxia aspect needs to not take up too much refresh) and also fairly broad in what they're capable of. I considered just taking Ritual (Casting) but I was worried I might be power gaming if I was suddenly able to do channeling or summoning because I had an item that let me do it.

Also are there powers for doing various kinds of telekinesis (like say, restricted to air or fire) or basic magic attacks like a baseball sized burst of fire? Like I said, this system is kicking my ass.
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Haru on November 22, 2012, 09:36:04 PM: Well, ritual(crafting) tends to be a power build if you want it to be, because you can put any kind of spell into an object and use it that way. On the other hand, creating an enchanted item takes time, and changing the enchanted items you have takes at least a minor milestone.

A quick overview on enchanted items:
You can create items that store single spell effects. The effect has a power rating equal to your lore. You can use multiple enchanted item slots on one item to boost its uses-per-session and/or power rating.
For example, with lore 4, you could create an item that stores a weapon:4 fireball spell, or a 4 shift air block.

Another way to go are potions. Potions go away after one use, but they can be shared with others (enchanted items have to be designed for that, lowering their power). You can also use aspects on-the-fly, to boost a potions effect.

You can not really store powers in an enchanted item. There is a way to get temporary powers, by spending a number of fate points equal to the refresh cost of a power you want to take up. Enchanted items and potions that you can create with ritual(crafting) are limited to what evocation and thaumaturgy can do (basically attack, block, maneuver, skill replacement and a handful of thaumaturgy stuff that probably isn't of concern here). And usually, you want to have your summoning spells at a higher rating than what your typical enchanted item is at.

Which does not mean, that you can't have your character be able to create real magical artifacts, just not by using that power. In fact, no power really fits that concept, and I see it as more of a plot device or justification for other characters to pick up customized items of power. Those items could either be made off screen, or you could play a campaign just to get the right materials.

The thing is, both the crafter and the monk are cool character concepts, I just don't see them working well together. If you want to have a lot of powerful items, you will need to buy refinement a few times, in order to get enough enchanted item slots to work with, leaving you with very little to work with on the superpowers. If you want superpowers, you'll have to cut back on the items. If you want to keep flying only, that might be ok, I'd still question the double heritage a bit, but that might just be me.
To set a limit on the flying, you could restrict the flying to a number of exchanges equal to the characters endurance, for example.

Powers for what you describe as telekinesis are mainly channeling and evocation. Enchanted items can store evocation effects, so you could have your crafter create a rod that can shoot fireballs. If you want to take channeling or evocation on top of all the above, you will definitely not have enough refresh to make everything work properly. Reduce to the max. I don't say that to encourage powergaming, but to encourage a strong character concept. At the moment it feels like you have tons of cool ideas that could fit a dozen characters, and you try to push them all into one, which will probably not do them justice.
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Erenthia on November 22, 2012, 10:09:06 PM: Well I don't have any intention of churning out things on the level of the Swords of the Cross or anything. Like you said, it's more of a justification for his churning out lots and lots of regular items.

As far as the double heritage goes...I probably should have provided more background on the character. BOTH his parents are sorcerers. Both had decided they wanted nothing more to do with the supernatural. By the time he discovered his magic, he was already in his junior year at MIT. The very first item he created (one he may or may not have anymore, but it's part of his backstory) gave him a sort of extremely limited divination and he immediately went to a casino. He barely managed to escape that encounter in one piece (This was his First Adventure) but it did not leave him unscarred. Now he carries the weight of a sort of "karmic debt" (his Trouble. think constant, extremely bad karma unless he's constantly doing things that would earn him "good karma"). Of course, he had trouble figuring out the nature of the weird problems he was having, so he took some of his "ill-gotten" gains and hired the only wizard listed in the phone book...

As far as the magic items go, I've been looking at the spellcasting chapter and I'm starting to understand. A glove that threw out baseball sized fireballs would be an Evocation(attack), whereas a ring that had a sort of "fire-telekinesis" would be Evocation(maneuver) correct? How would you stat Harry's jacket? A block?
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Mrmdubois on November 22, 2012, 10:33:52 PM: Harry's jacket can be either a block at the strength of your Lore rating, or you can halve it and have it act as armor instead.
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Erenthia on November 23, 2012, 05:19:25 PM: Could I also take a Thaumaturgical focus item specialized in crafting to give an effective bonus to Lore? For instance. Say I had a +4 Lore, could I take a +2 focus item to increase that Lore specifically with regards to how powerful my enchanted items/potions can be?

Also, I'm considering a new High Concept: The Goddamn Batman...With Magic
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Mrmdubois on November 23, 2012, 05:28:04 PM: Yes, it's called a Compleity focus item. It's basically like walking around with a Cliff Notes about your ritual area of expertise.
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Haru on November 23, 2012, 05:45:47 PM: Yes, you can do that. That item would cost you 2 focus item slots (= 1 refinement). For crafting, there are 2 things you can have a focus item for: Strength and frequency. Strength is what you have written in your example, it simply raises your lore in order to account for the maximum strength of the spell effect on the enchanted item. A frequency focus adds numbers of uses to an item.

There are also specializations, which do the same as focus items, but are arranged slightly different. You need to build specializations similar to the skill columns, but they are in effect, even when you don't have access to your focus items. They are only available for characters with full thaumaturgy or evocation, though.
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Erenthia on November 23, 2012, 05:52:47 PM: Wow, thanks for all the help, guys. And the patience. But I thought you spent additional enchanted item slots to increase the per session uses of an enchanted item. Isn't it more expenses to expend a focus item slot?

I'm also looking at Place of Power. I'm not really clear on how Sponsored Magic works, but every Smith has his Forge so that popped out at me.

Edit: misread a reply

Edit #2: Also where are specializations detailed? I haven't found them.
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Mrmdubois on November 23, 2012, 06:49:04 PM: Crafting specializations are mentioned in the crafting section of Thaumaturgy. If you have those specializations then you don't need to expend additional item slots, normally you do have to though.

Sponsored Magic is basically the chance to get Ritual and Channeling with some perks. You could certainly have a forge, or more likely an entity living inside it, that empowers your magic. The perks could be things like a bonus on a Declaration roll for happening to have a handy potion or one shot magical item, speedy item creation, all kinds of stuff that fits his theme. That power will come with an agenda restricting your use of its magic to those areas that the entity is interested in promoting. In the case of, let's call it Hephaestus, it could be to create items that are reminiscent of the Greek Pantheon, to proselytize worship of Hephaestus, to erect monuments or other public works that are both beautiful and functional and to smite anyone with a spray can and intent to vandalize.

As long as you don't do anything to tick Hephaestus off you can use his magic. You can also draw directly from Hephaestus to boost your spell casting on the fly by invoking Aspects for free. When you do though he gets an equal number of Compels that you won't be given Fate points for and he'll use them to try and make you do things that he wants or do things that you want done, but in the way he wants them done.

Honestly the Debt system for Sposored Magic is the best part of the whole thing in my opinion.

If you wanted to do it as a place of power your abilities would be limited to that location which would also be immobile unless you paid some extra Refresh to access it anywhere, (-1 I think) and depending on the location it may or may not have much of an agenda.
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Haru on November 23, 2012, 07:15:45 PM: The difference between a frequency focus and spending an item slot on more uses is this:
1 frequency focus adds 1 use on ALL of your items
1 additional enchanted item slot adds 2 uses to 1 item

If you have lots of enchanted items, a frequency focus will give you a lot more than adding enchanted item slots to an item.

Sponsored magic is a kind of evocation and thaumaturgy and works pretty much exactly like that. Additionally, you can call upon your sponsor to help you, taking up casting stress for you, increasing your output, etc. On the other hand, your magic will always be colored by your sponsor, and you will not be able to do magic that is not within your sponsors domain. He might even stop you, if you go against his agenda (this usually works with compels). To stay in Mrmdubois example of Hephaestos, I could see a sponsor like that stopping you from attacking an opponent that is using an extraordinary weapon, because you could destroy the masterpiece. Or to make you repair any damage that you (or even others) have done, because he is a constructor, not a destroyer. It gives great opportunities for roleplay.
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Mrmdubois on November 23, 2012, 07:18:05 PM: Quote from: Haru on November 23, 2012, 07:15:45 PM
The difference between a frequency focus and spending an item slot on more uses is this:
1 frequency focus adds 1 use on ALL of your items
1 additional enchanted item slot adds 2 uses to 1 item

If you have lots of enchanted items, a frequency focus will give you a lot more than adding enchanted item slots to an item.

Sponsored magic is a kind of evocation and thaumaturgy and works pretty much exactly like that. Additionally, you can call upon your sponsor to help you, taking up casting stress for you, increasing your output, etc. On the other hand, your magic will always be colored by your sponsor, and you will not be able to do magic that is not within your sponsors domain. He might even stop you, if you go against his agenda (this usually works with compels). To stay in Mrmdubois example of Hephaestos, I could see a sponsor like that stopping you from attacking an opponent that is using an extraordinary weapon, because you could destroy the masterpiece. Or to make you repair any damage that you (or even others) have done, because he is a constructor, not a destroyer. It gives great opportunities for roleplay.

Yeah, thanks Haru, those examples are way better than mine.
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Erenthia on November 23, 2012, 07:22:05 PM: Ok, wow. A frequency focus sounds like a good investment. And a forge makes more sense as something you can't take with you.

So a Place of Power grants additional options but no more raw power (such as increased complexity)? I'm not sure how the whole debt system works, though I'm pretty fuzzy on things like declarations. Honestly it sounds more appropriate for his Karmic Debt though for that I had imagined him as having already gotten the good stuff out of that and still having to pay it off. Later I wanted to have his understanding of karma to allow him to use it to his advantage, but for the moment his debt was a justification for his high Resources. I suppose when he does get that understand, that will be a form of Sponsored Magic (Karma Magic) allowing him powerful effects similar to (but opposite in effect as) entropy curse by saving up good deeds, doing random acts of kindness, helping people in need, etc. Magic Morality. I think Harry does this without realizing it...a lot.

For the moment, perhaps his Forge should be an Item of Power instead. Normally speeding up crafting would be pretty awesome, but since I'm limited in terms of slots, I'm not sure how useful it would be.
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Haru on November 23, 2012, 07:44:24 PM: Well, it kind of does. When you cast a spell, you can ask your sponsor to help you, giving you +2 on whatever you are doing. Every time you do so, you incur debt, which is a pre-accepted compel from your sponsor. So the next time your sponsor asks you to do something, you HAVE to do it, there is no way out of it. The more debt you have, the more he can boss you around. And like I said, that doesn't have to be in the form of "quests" or anything, it can be all sorts of things in line with the sponsors agenda. This is not a financial debt, by the way. Just saying, because you connected it to your characters resources.

But again I have to ask you, in the words of Billy: "Keep it simple, silly."
I know it is tempting to go at the powers like an all you can eat buffet. Trust me, I've done the same. And granted, it works pretty good in a lot of games. Here though, I feel, that it is way easier and more satisfying, if you have a solid concept for your character first and then pick your powers accordingly.

Kind of like this:
He is the son of two sorcerers that have since lost their powers, and he can only employ his magic by creating items.
-> ritual(crafting) + a few refresh worth of refinement

As a master craftsman, he was found worthy by hephaestos to use a magical smithy and create magic items to fight decay and destruction.
-> place of power (probably also + refinement)
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Erenthia on November 23, 2012, 07:52:55 PM: Actually I don't know that his parents have lost their powers completely, but I understand your points. And as I said, this isn't really intended as a power build regardless of what it may look like. I had a fairly extensive backstory long before I had the books in hand, and I'm just trying to be true to that. (while also learning the system from scratch which is why I'm looking at so many powers. I don't even know if they're appropriate or not and I want to learn how they work either way)

And I didn't mean to imply it was a financial debt (though I suppose if your sponsor was some kind of Dwarf-like being it might want gold). Just that the debt system works like what I wanted for his Karmic Debt which he fell into when he used magic to cheat casinos out of millions of dollars.

Also I'm bad at simple. I do simple like Harry does subtle.
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: sinker on November 23, 2012, 07:53:27 PM: I think you're over thinking the karmic debt thing. For now I would leave it as an aspect and let your GM compel you to create the effect you want.

As far as sponsored magic goes, I would only take it if you actually want the magic. Debt is not solely a function of sponsored magic, so if you want debt (but not evocation/thaumaturgy) then I would simply give yourself an aspect justification, and then make sure your GM is onboard with that.

I once created a outsider scion that had mainly powers like claws and strength and immunity to mortal magic, however the aspect connection to my father justified drawing power from him. It worked really well.

Having a forge as sponsored magic might be a little funny (in this particular case). I'd probably just use an aspect to represent it.
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: Erenthia on November 23, 2012, 08:02:24 PM: Well if I did take the Forge as Sponsored Magic, it would be a Place of Power and probably a ley line connected to a spirit of creation and renewal, but yeah I didn't intend to have Karma Magic right from the beginning. I wanted his story to be about learning how that stuff works and eventually turning his weakness into a strength. (and also by surpassing his parents by developing magic they never had). Actually the whole reason I decided I don't want to have the Forge as Sponsored Magic is because that would mean I'd end up with two forms of it later...which I suppose Harry has as of Cold Days, but I don't want to go that far.
Title: Re: Having trouble with character creation
Post by: sinker on November 24, 2012, 02:26:32 AM: If you want to get really technical Harry has three forms of sponsored magic and has had one more. (if I'm remembering correctly)
(click to show/hide)
(soulfire, place of power, and winter with hellfire at one point)