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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Sanctaphrax on October 26, 2012, 03:55:57 AM
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For the most part I like Modular Abilities. But I feel like it could do more than it does. And it bugs me how sometimes there's just no point buying a Power when you could just get more Modular Abilities points.
So, here's a plan that ought to fix that.
When you take Modular Abilities, you define a list of Options. Options are generally each a single Power, but you can take multiple Powers as one option if you want.
All Option lists have to consist of Powers that conflict with one another. No taking Evocation and Thaumaturgy and trying to pass off only being able to use one at a time as a significant drawback.
When you take a Power as an Option, you have to define everything variable about it. So if you have Evocation on your list you need to define your specialization and your foci. So you could totally have Modular Abilities that lets you switch two Evocation specialities.
The rest is like normal Modular Abilities, except that the extra charge isn't always 2 Refresh. Instead, it varies based on the number of Options on your list.
A bunch of pre-generated Option lists would be provided, so that people who just want basic Modular Abilities need do no more work than the RAW would make them do.
For the most part I think this is a good plan. But there are three issues:
1. How many Options should you get for a given Refresh surcharge? I current charge 1 Refresh for 2 Options in Quasi-Modular Abilities, and canon Modular Abilities offers at least two dozen Options for 2 Refresh.
2. What should you get if you take less Options than your Refresh surcharge entitles you to? Should the GM just snicker at you for being suboptimal?
3. Should there be any consideration given to people who have a lot of very similar Options? I mean, technically "Any Echoes Of The Beast" is a lot of Options. But it's not all that impressive. On the other hand, it's definitely worth more than one Option.
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Okay, I thought of a solution to the problems mentioned in the first post. It involves our old friend and enemy, vagueness.
In other words, you write out what your options are and the GM assigns a value based on highly scientific method known as eyeballing.
Examples and guidelines will of course be given. Here are the guidelines I'm planning:
1 Refresh surcharge for 2 significantly different Options that are usable in the same type of scene, or for a wide variety of very similar options. Examples: turn into a bear or a bird, use fire powers or ice powers, use any variety of Natural Weaponry, use any variety of Echoes Of The Beast.
2 Refresh surcharge for a large set of options that are all usable in the same type of scene. Examples: canon Modular Abilities, the Power Lavecki121 is trying to come up with in the thread that inspired this one.
3 Refresh surcharge for extremely broad sets of options or options usable in multiple types of scene. Example: Swap out wizardry for physical Powers, canon Modular Abilities plus some illusion and shapeshifting stuff, the ability to use any item off of the Resources Board IoP list.
How's that sound?
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Okay, I thought of a solution to the problems mentioned in the first post. It involves our old friend and enemy, vagueness.
In other words, you write out what your options are and the GM assigns a value based on highly scientific method known as eyeballing.
Examples and guidelines will of course be given. Here are the guidelines I'm planning:
1 Refresh surcharge for 2 significantly different Options that are usable in the same type of scene, or for a wide variety of very similar options. Examples: turn into a bear or a bird, use fire powers or ice powers, use any variety of Natural Weaponry, use any variety of Echoes Of The Beast.
2 Refresh surcharge for a large set of options that are all usable in the same type of scene. Examples: canon Modular Abilities, the Power Lavecki121 is trying to come up with in the thread that inspired this one.
3 Refresh surcharge for extremely broad sets of options or options usable in multiple types of scene. Example: Swap out wizardry for physical Powers, canon Modular Abilities plus some illusion and shapeshifting stuff, the ability to use any item off of the Resources Board IoP list.
How's that sound?
first one is good, but 2 and 3 still suffer a bit from vagueness. Is there anyway we can quantify the difference between extremely broad and simply large? Or can we give a few very pointed questions about how to interpret the difference, like, If it can be used in 9 out 10 scenes the gm can come up with it's -3.
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2 points should either be raw (primarily physical) or primarily mental/magical. Modular abilities that you take any power freely should be 3... or more.
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What about if you have it so that the refresh cost is the amount of categories that you are choosing from. Categories would be as follows (as they are in the book):
1. Creature Features
2. Fairy Magic
3. Minor Abilities
4. Never-never Powers
5. Psychic Abilities
6. Shapeshifting
7. Speed, Strength, Toughness
8. Spellcrafting
9. Vampirism
Though this seems like a lot (since if you wanted access to every ability you would have to prepay 9 refresh) but currently modular lets you access only certain abilities. It is fairly restricted since it only cover 1, 7, and some of 2. Its part of the power rule. This would allow you to take any power as long as it is in your selected categories.
Example: If I only want access to Creature Features, it would be a prepay of 1 refresh. But if later I decided I want to pick up some vampirism, it would cost another prepay. Ect.
This may not be a perfect system but it was what I thought up. Any comments?
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first one is good, but 2 and 3 still suffer a bit from vagueness. Is there anyway we can quantify the difference between extremely broad and simply large?
I'll try to make it clearer when I write the final Power.
Part of the distinction is that in 2 your options interfere with one another more. In a situation where Strength is useful, Speed likely would also be useful. So only being able to use one of the two is a big deal. But in a situation were Strength is useful Glamours is likely to be useless. So being able to use only one of the two matters less.
Which means that a 2-cost set could include Speed and Strength, but not Glamours and Strength unless it was rather small.
What about if you have it so that the refresh cost is the amount of categories that you are choosing from.
Not a good idea, unfortunately.
The categories have no mechanical weight...they don't do anything rules-wise. Changing that adds another variable to the design of each Power for no real reason.
Also, the categories are not remotely balanced against each other. Faerie Magic contains like four Powers, and having two makes the other two redundant. Creature Features contains like a dozen Powers, with some that have multiple variants. Plus there are a lot of homebrew Creature Features.
And finally, that would really limit the usefulness of the Power. For example, it'd make your Zodiac Power idea impossible.
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For example, it'd make your Zodiac Power idea impossible.
Meh. It would make it a -4 at most. Plus modifying it would make it less. However I feel the weight of each category could be lessened if you combined some categories. But that still is by making some categories such as magic, available to the modular abilities track.
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Your suggestion does not allow for Modular Abilities variants that grant some Powers, but not others, from a category. It also does not allow for multiple Powers to be bundled into one Option.
I'm not saying that your zodiac Power would be overpriced by your suggestion. I'm saying that it would be impossible.
Unless, of course, your suggestion also includes a bunch of other rules that you didn't tell us about.
Even then, though, it's an awful idea.
Categories absolutely should not have mechanical weight. Because if they have mechanical weight, then every new Power must be balanced with its category in mind. Which is an enormous hassle.
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I think he meant for each category to have a weight of (-1), so it's not really a hassle per se as much as it is just not necessarily a good idea.
Also, is there something wrong with modular abilities usually only giving you creature features, building block abilities and glamours? I just can't see why you would care that's all you get and not just pony up the Refresh for all the other powers.
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I think he meant for each category to have a weight of (-1), so it's not really a hassle per se as much as it is just not necessarily a good idea.
Not what I meant. By "have no mechanical weight" I meant they mean nothing in mechanical terms. Sorry if that was unclear.
The hassle comes from needing to worry about categories when writing Powers. And in having to restrict re-fluffing.
"No, you can't describe your Breath Weapon as a form of Evocation. That'd be unbalanced with Modular Abilities."
Also, is there something wrong with modular abilities usually only giving you creature features, building block abilities and glamours? I just can't see why you would care that's all you get and not just pony up the Refresh for all the other powers.
Not sure what the question is here.
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I mean that what's wrong with modular abilities as is?
But I feel like it could do more than it does. And it bugs me how sometimes there's just no point buying a Power when you could just get more Modular Abilities points..
This seems self-contradictory, because you're trying to make modular abilities do more. It makes it even more useful to simply get modular ability points. Which you already said is something you don't like.
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Look over at Lavecki121's other thread. Modular Abilities can't do what he's after there.
I think it should be able to do what he's after there.
(Also I just had to hash out the limits of Modular Abilities with a PC who wanted to do something slightly different.)
The fix I propose here wouldn't necessarily let modular points do more: in many cases, they'd do less. And more importantly, it'd let the guy who buys Inhuman Recovery when he has Modular Abilities get something in exchange for removing Inhuman Recovery from the list of things his Modular Abilities can give him.
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See, to me that's the point of buying things other than modular abilities, you have it, it's always available, now all those modular points can be spent on other stuff.
As for Lavecki's thread, I've read it. I don't see anything wrong with simply building it as an IoP, giving it modular abilities, and switching between those abilities each talisman is supposed to provide, thus representing multiple talismans. Extra refresh can be spent toward using more than one at a time. Or on talismans that are capable of things that modular abilities specifically doesn't cover, but I'm not sure which those would be.
I assume the character you're talking about is Martin. I haven't looked over his character sheet, but I haven't seen the modular abilities do anything strange thus far.
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See, to me that's the point of buying things other than modular abilities, you have it, it's always available, now all those modular points can be spent on other stuff.
Under canon Modular Abilities, Inhuman Recovery plus 5 points of Modular Abilities is in no situation better than 7 points of Modular Abilities. Because you can just leave two of your form points invested in Inhuman Recovery at all times if you really want to.
Under my proposed revision, by taking Inhuman Recovery outside of your Modular Abilities you can acquire the ability to use Modular Abilities for something else. And so there's actually a reason to do it.
As for Lavecki's thread, I've read it. I don't see anything wrong with simply building it as an IoP, giving it modular abilities, and switching between those abilities each talisman is supposed to provide, thus representing multiple talismans. Extra refresh can be spent toward using more than one at a time. Or on talismans that are capable of things that modular abilities specifically doesn't cover, but I'm not sure which those would be.
Canon Modular Abilities cannot provide telekinesis or Spirit Form or the ability to animate inanimate objects. Also, it cannot require you to take your Powers in set patterns. Lavecki121's proposed Power would not allow you to take Inhuman Strength from Ox with Breath Weapon from Dragon, but canon Modular Abilities would.
I assume the character you're talking about is Martin. I haven't looked over his character sheet, but I haven't seen the modular abilities do anything strange thus far.
Ophidimancer was interested in using Modular Abilities for Glamours (EDIT: True Shapeshifting). And KnightOrbis is using Modular Abilities in a totally non-canon way. Actually KnightOrbis is basically already using the revision I'm planning here.
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Fair enough, so there are some limitations to RAW modular abilities.
Are you basically setting this up so nothing is off limits via modular abilities though? Because yeah it's basically going to become the accounting hassle of weighing options that you want to avoided you do it that way. I mean, the game is like that already to some extent, but with your house rules about modular abilities you're looking at that times two as people try to figure out the pros and cons of two powersets or more that they can switch out because they're modular.
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The limitations to RAW are that you can only take creature features, some minor abilities, speed, strength and toughness powers. There also is something to consider in the fact that Modular abilities power is called "Function Follows Form" and it is a shapeshifting power, this implies that you have to have a visual reason why you get that power, in that your physical form actually changes. Maybe I'm wrong but it would seem to me that the guy who buys inhuman recovery would look normal but the guy who has modular points put towards inhuman recovery at all times, would look as though he was not human, maybe close but somehow, off.
Thats my read on it at least.
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Are you basically setting this up so nothing is off limits via modular abilities though?
Yes, though the surcharges could get arbitrarily large.
This involves more accounting than is ideal, but that's unavoidable. If somebody wants to have a character with a new Power they'll need to do some accounting when they design that Power. And yes, each type of Modular Abilities is a new Power.
There's no need to make that accounting any harder than it has to be, though.
The limitations to RAW are that you can only take creature features, some minor abilities, speed, strength and toughness powers.
Pretty much.
There also is something to consider in the fact that Modular abilities power is called "Function Follows Form" and it is a shapeshifting power, this implies that you have to have a visual reason why you get that power, in that your physical form actually changes. Maybe I'm wrong but it would seem to me that the guy who buys inhuman recovery would look normal but the guy who has modular points put towards inhuman recovery at all times, would look as though he was not human, maybe close but somehow, off.
That's not good. Powers should not dictate aesthetics, because it shuts off character concepts and because looking like a freak is not a bad thing mechanically.
You wanna be blue? Sure, but you don't get extra points or extra power in exchange for being blue. If it's a problem, you get a Compel.
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That's not good. Powers should not dictate aesthetics, because it shuts off character concepts and because looking like a freak is not a bad thing mechanically.
Yes but as it stands, Modular Abilities is a shapeshifter power. Which implies that some shapeshifting should be occurring. This is why True Shapeshifting suggests modular abilities as an add on.
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It's a shapeshifting Power because it's usually used for shapeshifters. But it can totally be used for other characters too.
Powers can be reflavoured, after all.
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Yes, though the surcharges could get arbitrarily large.
This involves more accounting than is ideal, but that's unavoidable. If somebody wants to have a character with a new Power they'll need to do some accounting when they design that Power. And yes, each type of Modular Abilities is a new Power.
There's no need to make that accounting any harder than it has to be, though.
True, but by making a system whereby any power can be represented via modular abilities, why would I take anything else? I imagine, that's the whole point of the arbitrarily large surcharge so I might be answering my own question there, but its going to be interesting to see how the balance works out. Too low and it just makes sense to get modular abilities, too high and you might as well just pony up the Refresh for separate powers.
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The limitations to RAW are that you can only take creature features, some minor abilities, speed, strength and toughness powers.
Pretty much.
Well, except for the part about it being Rules-As-Written, rather than Rules-As-Suggested which would be more accurate.
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Well, except for the part about it being Rules-As-Written, rather than Rules-As-Suggested which would be more accurate.
Why differentiate? Those two terms are the same thing. Every RPG is subject to Rule 0, ignore rules as you see fit. If it's mentioned specifically in the book makes no difference.
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It being mentioned explicitly in the text does have an impact on how it should be interpreted. It should rightly be given less 'weight' than should other 'rules'.
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True, but by making a system whereby any power can be represented via modular abilities, why would I take anything else? I imagine, that's the whole point of the arbitrarily large surcharge so I might be answering my own question there, but its going to be interesting to see how the balance works out. Too low and it just makes sense to get modular abilities, too high and you might as well just pony up the Refresh for separate powers.
I am inclined to agree
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The stark truth of it is simple: the most sound tactical decision for a character design which features modular abilities is to put as many points into it as possible for the largest advantage. Unless a rebate power (IOP, human form, Catch, feeding dependency) creates a need to take a separate power then the tactical choice should always be more modular abilities refresh.
Why doesn't this happen is a much more complicated question but it boils down to this: Not every template should permit such a design.
Players shouldn't be picking their powers ad hoc, they should fit a template, even a custom template and that template should spell out what powers they can, should, must and may have, both during creation and during advancement. Said template is meant to be a cooperative effort between player and GM. Even something like a changeling should have its power path planned out based on its parent hood.
Just don't let your player put everything into Modular abilities unless there is a very super strong reason it should be like that.
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So in the end it comes down to case by case judgement rather than an unbiased rule set? Well heck, I think Modular Abilities as is already does that, nothing stopping the GM from saying that it can cover a character's Glamours or whatever.
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@Tedronai: True. Doesn't change much, though.
@Mrmdubois: Indeed, if it's wrongly costed than it'll be overwhelmingly optimal or useless. But that's the case with most Powers. Just part of the job.
Modular Abilities as written does not accommodate changes to the option list very well. You can mess with the list, but you can't bundle Powers together into single options and the Power provides no guidelines to help you keep lists fair.
Plus it doesn't allow you to alter the cost for unusually powerful or weak option lists.
Which is why it ought to be expanded. It works fine, but it doesn't do as much as it could.
@atavistic: Ugh, no. Abandon that line of thinking immediately.
Templates should not be used as a balancing factor. Because if Power combo X is too good on a Wizard it's too good on a Were-form too. Template-based restrictions serve only to unbalance the game in the favour of people who chose the "right" character concepts.
Especially since the most basic Modular Abilities-using concepts actually make sense when you put a bunch of points in Modular Abilities.
Putting as many points as possible in Modular Abilities is often optimal, but not always. If you want/need Powers not on your list of options, you've gotta buy them separately. And with the expansion, even buying Powers on your list might be optimal since it'll allow you to expand your list.
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Sanctaphrax, I think part of the problem I'm having here is that I don't really get what you're working toward with this Options thing. Could you elaborate or clarify? I'd be more specific, but I'm pretty much drawing a blank on all of it.
If you're going to change surcharges I think it makes sense to simply change suboptimal surcharge costs to (-1), and very optimal to (-3) or more.
Very optimal I think would be anything that allows switching around spellcasting powers, and maybe Glamours, but I think most other powers fall pretty neatly under the (-2), do you agree? Or are there other very optimal Powers I might not be thinking of?
Or maybe leave Modular Abilities as is, and throw in an additional surcharge cost for every Power a character wants to add to the list.
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The main point of Options is to let people bundle Powers together.
Suppose I'm playing a wizard who can set aside her spellcasting for Speed and Strength and Toughness by channelling her magic inwards.
Representing this as Modular Abilities is quite sensible, but by canon Modular Abilities I'd be able to mix and match Powers. So I could go all Speed + Evocation for super-fast kills, which is not how the character is meant to work.
By using Options, I can combine all my Powers into two Options. So I can either be a caster or a tank, but not some kind of mix.
Mixing Psychometry and Guide My Hand into the default shapeshifter mix would be powerful, since in the situations where I need physical Powers I won't need Psychometry or Guide My Hand. So having to choose would not be painful.
The key thing to remember is that non-overlapping Options are more powerful.
PS: It was probably a mistake to put this up before I was done with the actual Power writeup. In the absence of a proper writeup, these discussions are always a bit less effective. Lesson learned, I guess.
PPS: I'll be including stunts and upgrades in the final Power, along with Options that require other Options. Because why not.
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With that last post, I think I finnally understand what you are saying. And I do agree with you. Having to sacrifice some of the more powerful options in favor of other powerful options makes you have to choose what you are going to be doing, especially if you dont have quick shifting.
I feel like you should get a refresh back if you had "restricted" modular abilities. Basically you define what you can do at a certain time. You cant combine any powers from different sets.
So if I wanted say Speed, strength, evocation and glamours (lets say)
I would make some different options:
1. speed and strength
2 evocation
3 glamours
I would make it so that none of the powers that you are using can be combined unless previously stated that you can. Basically chart it out before hand (kind of like I was trying to do before with my other power).
But maybe thats not what you are intending
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Not sure exactly what you mean. Could you please explain further?
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Not sure exactly what you mean. Could you please explain further?
The cost would be lower if you had secured option sets as opposed to a bunch of abilities you can choose from.
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Yes, of course.
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modular abilities is a power that can let a player be anything and everything. but alot of people when you tell them that. they can't think of anything. a player in my group has this power. the player has four builds she uses defender, striker, stealth, and a perception build.
what i am saying dispite the fact she could be alot more that all she plays as.(and all she whats to play as). so if i where to change modular abilities i would make it two fold. how many builds you could have. 1 point two builds, 2 points four builds and so on. then i would point pool to spend on the builds. so say i spend 5 points. 1 point for two builds 4 point pool.
my character have one build of inhuman strength and inhuman speed and another of inhuman toughness and inhuman recovery for example. thats my two cents.thanks bye.
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I agree with you 100%
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Actually, that possibility is already included in what I have. Just pick a small number of Options, and make each option consume all of your form points. Depending on how many Options you pick and how much they overlap, the cost will vary.
I'd rather not nail myself down the way you're doing, since a fixed-formula cost is easy to abuse.
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Thats true Enough. I dont know anymore :P
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I don't see the way modular powers currently works as overpowered the two refresh modifier is pretty substantial and the closest the system comes to broken is using modulating recovery and toughness to free up six refresh (4 refresh sans modifier) at mythic levels (mythic toughness on in combat recovery on outside of combat). As long as the pc and gm agree on the list of options in advance I don't see a any reason why it needs to be modded.
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...I don't think I said anything about it being overpowered.
The issue is that it doesn't have as many possibilities as it could have. There are so many things that could be done with something Modular Abilities-like, and so many of those things can't be done with canon Modular Abilities.
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...I don't think I said anything about it being overpowered.
I think most of us were under the impression thats what you were saying. I know I was and thats what most of my arguments were geared towards.
Now that I understand a little better I think the way you proposed before would be good. However it would have to be up to the GM to go with what you said or Cannon. Some people like the Cannon version because it limits the modular abilities. To be honest I like your proposed one for IoP's. It could make for some interesting weapons.
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I was talking to ways and means, sorry if that was unclear.
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How's this look?
VARIABLE ABILITIES [-varies]
Description: You have some method of changing what Powers are available to you at any given time.
Note: Variable Abilities is not one Power; it's a whole collection, with each list being a different Power. If you don't trust your ability to create new Powers, stick with the lists provided here. If you do feel capable of writing new Powers, feel free to create your own lists using the ones here as a guide. Remember that if the abilities on the list are all useful in different situations it makes the list more powerful.
Skills Affected: Many.
Effects:
Option List. You have a list of Powers and upgrades and Stunts that you can give yourself with this Power. Your list may be of any length, and it may contain conditions like "Power X and Power Y must be taken together" or "Stunt X can only be taken if Power Y has been taken". Each list has a Refresh surcharge. A list's surcharge is proportional to its length, its flexibility, and the amount of variation among the Powers on it.
Form Points. Once you've paid the Refresh surcharge of your list, you may spend as many additional points of Refresh as you want. For each additional point of Refresh you spend, you get a form point.
Function Follows Form. As a full action, you may allocate your form points to abilities on your list. Each form point is worth 1 Refresh worth of abilities. You must abide by the conditions of your list, but you are under no obligation to keep all (or any) of your form points invested at any time.
I'll put up some lists later.
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Form Points. Once you've paid the Refresh cost of your list, you may spend as many additional points of Refresh as you want. For each additional point of Refresh you spend, you get a form point.
I think this might be worded wrong.
It sounds like you have to pay the full cost of all potential powers before you pay for the form points by which you actually gain access to those powers.
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Good point!
I just tried to fix that in the laziest possible way. How's it look?
And now, some lists. If multiple abilities are listed under one bullet, they must be taken together.
1 Refresh:
Fire And Ice
-Channelling (Fire) [-2], Refinement [-1] (staff focus, +2 offensive control and power), Immunity (Fire) [-2].
-Channelling (Ice) [-2], Refinement [-1] (staff focus, +2 defensive control and power), Immunity (Cold) [-2].
Omni-Weapon
-Whatever variant of Natural Weaponry you want, with whatever upgrades you want.
2 Refresh:
General Shapeshifter
-Up to two levels of Strength.
-Up to two levels of Speed.
-Up to two levels of Toughness.
-Up to two levels of Recovery.
-Natural Weaponry, with or without Potent, Venomous, and Ranged upgrades.
-Diminutive, Hulking or Titanic Size.
-Spider Walk [-1].
-Wings [-1].
-Aquatic [-1].
-Extra Appendages, with or without upgrades.
-Damage Shield, with or without upgrades.
-Feel No Pain [-3].
-Amorphous Form [-1].
-Swarm Body [-3].
-Superhuman Acrobatics [-1].
-Magical Compartment [-1].
-Cloak Of Shadows [-1].
-Superior Hold [-2].
-Any Echoes Of The Beast, within reason [-1].
-Supernatural Sense, possibly with Strange Senses, from a pool of 3 possible senses.
Double Were-Form
-Beast Change (Bear) [-1], Echoes Of The Beast (Bear) [-1], Limitation (Strength, Toughness, and Claws, only when transformed) [+1], Inhuman Strength [-2], Inhuman Toughness [-2], Claws [-1].
-Beast Change (Bat) [-1], Echoes Of The Beast (Bat) [-1], Limitation (Size, Wings, Cloak and Speed, only when transformed) [+1], Diminutive Size [-1], Inhuman Speed [-2], Wings [-1], Cloak Of Shadows [-1].
3 Refresh:
Wannabe Listens-To-Wind
-True Shapeshifting [-4], Variable Abilities (General Shapeshifter) [-6].
-Evocation [-3], Thaumaturgy [-3], The Sight [-1], Soulgaze [-0], Wizard's Constitution [-0], Refinement [-3], with fixed focus slots and specializations.
Talismans Of Shendu
-Item Limitation (all variable abilities, you need a little rooster trinket) [+1], Telekinesis [-3], Wings [-1].
-Item Limitation (all variable abilities, you need a little ox trinket) [+1], Inhuman Strength [-2], Inhuman Toughness [-2].
-Item Limitation (all variable abilities, you need a little snake trinket) [+1], Cloak Of Shadows [-1], Enhanced Invisibility [-3].
-Item Limitation (all variable abilities, you need a little sheep trinket) [+1], Projected Spirit Form [-4].
-Item Limitation (all variable abilities, you need a little rabbit trinket) [+1], Supernatural Speed [-4].
-Item Limitation (all variable abilities, you need a little dragon trinket) [+1], Potent Ranged Area Natural Weaponry [-4].
-Item Limitation (all variable abilities, you need a little rat trinket) [+1], Incite Restrictive Physical Effect At Range (Object Animation) [-4].
-Item Limitation (all variable abilities, you need a little horse trinket) [+1], Supernatural Recovery [-4].
-Item Limitation (all variable abilities, you need a little pig trinket) [+1], Supernatural Sense (Thermal Vision) [-1], Potent Ranged Natural Weaponry [-3].
-Item Limitation (all variable abilities, you need a little tiger trinket) [+1], Something Something Something [-4].
-Item Limitation (all variable abilities, you need a little monkey trinket) [+1], Sponsored Magic (Transformation) [-4].
-Item Limitation (all variable abilities, you need a little dog trinket) [+1], Undying [-0], Supernatural Toughness [-4].
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Just want to make sure I'm getting this right Sanctaphrax, you pay a 1 Refresh surcharge and can thus access the Fire and Ice list by paying another 5 Refresh (-2 for Channeling, -1 for Refinement, -2 for Immunity to Fire/Ice)? And then you can switch between Fire and Ice?
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Well, sort of.
You pay a 1 Refresh surcharge and whatever amount of Refresh you want to spend for form points. But if you have less than 5 points you can't use them for anything. And having more is pretty pointless.
So in practice it works out the way you say.
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For that example list, anyway.
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Yep.
It's a little different for lists like the General Shapeshifter, of course.
So, does anybody have any more comments? There was some good discussion before the Power was written, hopefully there can be some now.
Even if you just want to post a one-line "it sucks/rules!", that's helpful.
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I like it. However I think that the wording is confusing and that not many people are going to understand it. I have said from the start that its a good idea and it would work, its just how its worded.
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How are you figuring the Refresh surcharge? Eyeballing?
I find it kind of confusing as well, maybe breaking down which examples on the list you switch between. Like Fire and Ice I figured out because they're thematically opposite, the bigger lists later on I get kind of lost on.
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I like it. However I think that the wording is confusing and that not many people are going to understand it. I have said from the start that its a good idea and it would work, its just how its worded.
I was worried about that.
Any suggestions on making it easier to follow?
How are you figuring the Refresh surcharge? Eyeballing?
I find it kind of confusing as well, maybe breaking down which examples on the list you switch between. Like Fire and Ice I figured out because they're thematically opposite, the bigger lists later on I get kind of lost on.
It's eyeballing. It's not terribly hard, though, because 1 Refresh, 2 Refresh, and 3 Refresh are really different in terms of power.
You switch between whatever examples you want. Suppose you have 7 Refresh invested in General Shapeshifter Variable Abilities. Then you can have whatever combination of abilities from the list you want, as long as they add up to 5 Refresh.
Inhuman Speed, Wings, and Hulking Size? Sure! Supernatural Strength and Natural Weaponry? A-OK!
And so on.
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Ok, I think that makes sense to me.
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So...does anybody have any suggestions for wording?
And are there any types of Variable Abilities that people would like to see?
I'm hoping to get the next list update done sometime soonish. I want this done first.
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Ok so I think I figured out what I dont like about it. There are no qualifiers, like the last time you tried to figure it out. In the "options list" sections there should be a breakdown of what costs what refresh.
Ex: Small list costs 1; large list cost 3
Obviously it wouldnt be that black and white but thats what I think needs to be worded.
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Okay, the thing I'm not seeing in your example is why the "double were form" is in the same category as "general shapeshifter"?
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@Lavecki: I really don't think I can do better than pointing people to a list of examples. Because even a two-element list can be worth a 3-Refresh surcharge.
@wyvern: Because it offers two instances of Beast Change. General Shapeshifter's versatility is limited by the fact that you're still stuck with your original skill-set, so it can't make Social Guy into Combat Guy or Spy Guy. General Shapeshifter is probably a bit better, but I can't justify giving out Double Were-Form for 1 Refresh.
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I understand that part. I was using my wording as an example. I feel that is the confusing part of the power though.
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I get it, but I don't think I can provide a decent explanation without making the description really long. And example lists are usually a good way to provide balance points.
So I'm inclined to say "just look at the lists, people".
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Yea. I just feel that it is overcomplicating things. having examples is nice but when you are redefining a power as having specific lists that people have to judge themselves, when the other power is so much simpler and easier to use, it gets confusing.
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Also I just reread through the whole thread again and am now mildly confused as to this approach. It seems like you are making surcharges cost more depending on what the lists can do but arent allowing for straight modular. Not only that it seems that there is no reason to do the first list (fire ice) for the same reason that you described with the Inhuman recover. I could easily use that 1 surcharge and take evocation fire/ice and not have to worry about taking a standard action to switch beween them.
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The Modular Fire/Ice allows you to switch your attached Refinement(s). Evocation with multiple elements would not allow this.
The 'General Shapeshifter' list contains just about everything mentioned as 'suggested to be available' in the RAW version of Modular Abilities (and then some, including various custom powers from this forum).
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The Modular Fire/Ice allows you to switch your attached Refinement(s). Evocation with multiple elements would not allow this.
So in essence I'm saving 1 refresh by switching between the two instead of spending an additional refinement (even though you would get 2 focus slots from evo anyway)
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You get 2 focus slots for Evocation in the same way that you get 2 focus slots for Channeling.
Switching between the two starts to become more attractive when you're spending 2 or 3 points on refinement for additional item (focus and/or enchanted item) slots.
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Fire and Ice also lets you switch Immunities.
Writing a new list is writing a new Power. If you don't want to do that, you've gotta stick with what's provided.
Which reminds me, I'd like to add more lists to the list of lists. Any suggestions?
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incite physical effect // incite mental effect
any one incite physical effect or any one incite mental effect
any incite effect
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Hm, okay. I'll give those a try later today.
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Okay, how's this?
1 Refresh:
Multi-Purpose Robot Minions
-Any configuration of upgrades you want for Incite Effect (Robot Command). You may also change which skill you use Incite Effect with, within reason. Not sure why you'd want to though.
Masks Of The Human And The Divine
-Incite Protective Restrictive Physical Effect (Flesh Control, with Discipline) [-4]
-Incite Mass Mental Effect At Range (Awe, with Discipline) [-4]
Shrink And Grow
-Diminutive Size [-1]
-Hulking Size [-2]
-Titanic Size [-4]
-Unthinkable Size [-6]
-Inhuman, Supernatural, or Mythic Strength (Requires Hulking or larger size)
-Inhuman, Supernatural, or Mythic Toughness (Requires Hulking or larger size)
-Long Reach (Requires Hulking or larger size)
-Inhuman Speed (Requires Diminutive Size)
2 Refresh:
Discount Omnipotence
-Any Incite Effect you want, with whatever upgrades you want.
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Question:
What would it cost to have a power that can apply powers? For a hypothetical example, Modular Abilities with a 2-refresh extra to make them "area" so that you could have anyone in the same zone as you get the benefit.
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That is well outside the scope of this thread.
IIRC there's a Magical Self-Enhancement upgrade that does something like that. Not sure if it's balanced, though.
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What about taking extra points for any skill? Has that been defined?
Like say I have 4 refresh for the Channeling thing (or whatever it costs)
and then I want some extra points for any skills. Would that just add an extra point or...?
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Can't help you there. This Power shuffles Refresh around, not skills.
I guess you could hack something with Mimic Abilities and Beast Change. I'd be careful with Mimic Abilities, though, since it seems to be balanced against some precarious assumptions.
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Sorry I didnt mean skills, I meant powers. So if I had the extra refresh towards powers.
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So a list of "anything is fair game"? Probably a 4-refresh surcharge.
Edit: that's what I'd charge in this system, at least
though, I think I've come to the conclusion that this power should receive similar treatment to Limitation and the Feeding Dependency rework in terms of a scaling adjustment
because paying 3 or 4 refresh to be able to put 1 refresh wherever you want is just a crappy deal
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Even for 4 Refresh I wouldn't allow that.
Imagine using that with Immunity. "I spend an action to allocate 1 Refresh to become perfectly immune to the attacks of Tedronai".
I really don't know if any cost would be fair for perfect Variable Abilities.
I'm torn on the scaling cost issue, because 1 Refresh invested in Variable Abilities can be surprisingly good. Being able to use a variety of Echoes Of The Beasts or Supernatural Senses is quite handy. I get where you're coming from, but...
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I understand what you are saying except:
Imagine using that with Immunity. "I spend an action to allocate 1 Refresh to become perfectly immune to the attacks of Tedronai".
I dont know where this is comming from. In order to use this (RAW at least) I would have to have spend 4 points for the innitial investment, then another 8 would have to be allocated for immunity, plus it would take a standard action to shift into that.
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I think he meant for use with the Catch/Limitation to reduce the cost to -1? Though I think that's explicitly against the RAW.
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I guess, but with that kind of power I would make you have a defined catch before hand. You shouldnt be changing your catch on the fly.
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More likely, I would presume, was that he was referring to the Immunity rewrite created on this board.
More on-topic, catch-swapping is something I would be extremely leery of, as it could essentially result in the character having no catch at all, but nevertheless receiving the rebate of one (and likely a very large rebate, at that).
Are there any other problems that people can forsee stemming from a (heavily surcharged) 'almost-anything goes' Modular Abilities?
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Honestly I would make the character roleplay it. I would assume that a character like this would have a large ammount of magic/natural energies flowing through them. Maybe they were cursed for it or something. As long as they have an aspect relating to it (posibly thier high concept) I think it could work.
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Immunity =/= Physical Immunity. Talking about the custom Power here. I like my homebrew to be compatible with other homebrew.
Now, if you're not allowing custom Powers then you'll find that perfect Variable Abilities is less powerful. Which is actually a problem. It makes it essentially impossible to assign a fair Refresh cost to the list. Especially because the book actually encourages you to make more Powers.
How can you cost a list if you don't know what's on it?
And even if you redefine "any ability" to "any ability in YS" you still have a massive amount of Power from Stunts and spellcasting. That's +2 to pretty much any skill roll as long as you have a few seconds to prepare, and unlimited re-specialization in whatever field of magic you want.
Plus, being able to acquire any Item Of Power and any Sponsored Magic and any Marked By Power is thematically bizarre.
The more I think about the idea, the less I like it and the less confidence I have in the existence of a fair cost.
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I wasn't aware that Modular Abilities allowed for the purchasing of stunts...
There really is only one Marked by Power. The mechanical effects are identical regardless of who the patron is, and sufficient magic should really be able to deceive onlookers into believing that there is some patron protecting an individual, even if it's not capable of mimicing some particular patron's mark.
The primary issue I see with 'any sponsored magic' availability is one of roleplaying considerations related to actually receiving that power from that sponsor, and are thus avoidable by saying that the individual is capable of accessing 'self-sponsored magic' that produces essentially indistinguishable aptitudes.
Maybe I should rephrase this line of inquiry. What would have to be excluded from the list of options for an 'everythin not on this list is fair game' Modular Abilities power to be reasonably costable?
What's the minimum 'exclusion list' that other members here would endorse simply for such a power to be acceptable at all (leaving the surcharge of the power off the table for now)?
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What if you made the traferrance time longer? It would force you be prepared ahead of time and would make it so you would have to really consider changing mid battle.
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I wasn't aware that Modular Abilities allowed for the purchasing of stunts...
The canon version may or may not, it's not totally clear. This version definitely does.
There really is only one Marked by Power
...
The primary issue I see with 'any sponsored magic' availability is one of roleplaying considerations related to actually receiving that power from that sponsor, and are thus avoidable by saying that the individual is capable of accessing 'self-sponsored magic' that produces essentially indistinguishable aptitudes.
Some of Sponsored Magic's effects are pretty intimately tied to its flavour. It doesn't refluff well.
I try to limit narrative as little as possible when I write crunch, as you know. But I really think that this idea is narratively unworkable.
Maybe I should rephrase this line of inquiry. What would have to be excluded from the list of options for an 'everythin not on this list is fair game' Modular Abilities power to be reasonably costable?
You'd have to exclude all Powers and Stunts that have not yet been written. Plus Limitation, because it doesn't do anything if you can switch it out like that.
Apart from that I don't think there's anything you'd absolutely have to exclude, but keeping Immunity and Refinement and maybe one or two other things would kick the Refresh cost up to something absurd.
You'd probably have to exclude Lawbreaker and most Items Of Power and most Sponsored Magics, too. But that's a flavour thing, so it's up to individual groups.
What if you made the traferrance time longer? It would force you be prepared ahead of time and would make it so you would have to really consider changing mid battle.
It would help, but the issues would still be there.
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What if you made the traferrance time longer? It would force you be prepared ahead of time and would make it so you would have to really consider changing mid battle.
Might want to try to work that into the end result of this rewrite as an option providing a discount of some indeterminate magnitude.
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Eh, maybe. I'm reluctant to add more complexity.