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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: AstralBlade on September 27, 2012, 03:31:47 AM

Title: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: AstralBlade on September 27, 2012, 03:31:47 AM
For those of you who need a reference;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_(Fate/stay_night)

Just scroll down to abilities and you'll get a fairly good idea of what I'm trying to do. For those that don't want to read the wiki page, ill give a short explanation. Archer is a faker, someone who projects, traces and reinforces weapons stored within his mind to make tangible, and often deadly weapons. If he has seen it, he can trace the object in his mind and then project it into reality, its like conjuration at evocation speed, but not as much effort and for more return i guess.

This would only be for weapons or rather "combat" weapons, no Guns, armor, grenades bazookas or etc. So the kills are pretty much, Tracing, Alteration, and Projection. Which corresponds to the following skills in the DV; Weapons(knowledge of weapons and what it looks, history, and capabilities), Craftsmanship(composition of weapon, materials used in forging, durability), and Conviction(making the projected image become a reality). My question is what powers would i use? How could i make this fit into the Dresdenverse? What powers could i feasibly take to imitate or tweak to closely resemble what im trying to do? Also, there is the matter of his Reality Marble in which he takes you to his own reality made up of this barren landscape with every weapon he's ever projected or has recorded data on, it kinda works as a demesne, because he can influence this place to fit his image, granted he would not be able to shift the ground or affect the landscape past what i already make as it's base, he could only affect the weapons.

Any tips, or help would be greatly appreciated, or if people think i should probably just scrap the idea. I always told myself i wouldn't be THAT guy but i find this concept extremely interesting and would like if possible to play around with it.

Archer in action, skip to 3:45 to see the Reality Marble and what i envision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBe9HZ1wnrw


Should also note, that the power level would be Submerged
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 27, 2012, 04:04:29 AM
IIRC, the Tracing custom Power was originally intended to simulate Archer.

(click to show/hide)

It's not the only way to go, though. If this doesn't float your boat, I'm sure we can work something else out.
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: AstralBlade on September 27, 2012, 04:15:22 AM
How  did i miss that....? Thank you Sanctaphrax, that is amazing. Curious about what to do with his reality marble though, Quasi Modular Abilities would even work with tracing Swords of the Cross and the like, if i could actually get my character to see the weapon now. Do you think the Demesne trapping would work?
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: Tedronai on September 27, 2012, 04:30:10 AM
Looking at that Tracing power, it seems rather impressively expensive for what it does.
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: AstralBlade on September 27, 2012, 04:38:17 AM
Considering you are pretty much developing weapons from thin air without taking stress, and the fact that you can make up Weapon 3 value weapons kinda makes it OP to me, in fact taking all of the abilities for a measly 5 refresh allows even lower levels characters to wreck shop. It balances pretty well, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: Tedronai on September 27, 2012, 06:37:59 AM
Comparing to nearest competition in both effect and cost:

The base power used to create any thrown weapon will be strictly inferior to Breath Weapon, requiring a supplemental action to form each weapon before throwing.
The base power used to create a one-handed melee weapon will be strictly inferior to Breath Weapon, being limited to, y'know, melee.  In fact, it will be inferior to Claws+Human Guise, or Claws+something+Human Form.
The base power used to create a two-handed weapon will be, in the first round inferior to Breath Weapon, and in subsequent rounds have a slight advantage against opponents in melee (while being again strictly inferior against any opponents not in melee).

Adding in the Complex upgrade, you have to start comparing to things like Evocation, or discounted Sponsored Magic, which will hold vast advantages in anything other than particularly drawn-out conflicts.

The fully upgraded power, on the other hand, gets to compare itself to things like 5 refresh of modular abilities, or evocation and 2 refinements, or Claws+True Shapeshifting.
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: ways and means on September 27, 2012, 10:57:24 AM
It does seem a bit expensive, I wanted it be more than just a combat power though and provide some utility so at the highest level you can use to bypass most locks (i project the key), one of the benefits of tracing for a party especially a melee party is that it allows the tracer to equip his team with superb equipment with a much higher weapons rating than normal which could stack out quite well especially with stuff like two weapon fighting. If you want to make it better I would give a bonus to armor with higher levels of tracing or perhaps let people trace as a free action. 
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: AstralBlade on September 27, 2012, 02:52:36 PM
Ah. When compared to other powers your point is well taken Tedroni.  Maybe we can also add something to the power about firing off his IoPs /Broken Noble Phantasms? Something like add the refresh value of the IoP to its weapon value.   I.E, my. Character traces the IoP Excalibur which has a refresh 4 and a weapon value of 3, character turns excalibur into a broken IoP adding he refresh and weapon value which now gives it a weapon rating of 7. The broken Excalibur can only be used for that one attack though. That weapon can no longer be traced for the remainder of the scene or session though. How does that sound?
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: Tedronai on September 27, 2012, 05:43:51 PM
The current form of the power provides no higher weapon ratings than the weapons themselves would have had they been acquire normally.  If it was intended to, then it requires a change in language.


The RAW 'create almost anything you want with the power of your mind'  power is called Greater Glamours.  It is capable of other feats, as well, including the creation of seemingly-living creatures.  It costs only 4 refresh.
Keep that in mind.
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 27, 2012, 08:40:35 PM
Tracing does look rather weak in retrospect. It looks like it was balanced against Breath Weapon, which is a good way to write a weak Power.

If I were to rewrite it, I'd probably fold Versatile Tracing into the base Power. I'd also define the limits of Complex Tracing a bit more completely, and I'd add an option to make a bunch of weapons all at once as a full action.

I think that'd be appropriately powerful. Complex Tracing basically gives your entire group weapons that exceed normal weapon rating limits by 2.

I might also add a further interaction between Complex Tracing and IoP Collection. It seems weird that my traced Sword Of The Cross would be weapon 3 when I can trace a mundane mono-filament sword that's weapon 5.

How does that sound?

PS: Broken Phantasms I know little about, but my first impression is that they'd be best represented as part of the conjured Items Of Power.
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: Tedronai on September 27, 2012, 08:56:00 PM
I think that'd be appropriately powerful. Complex Tracing basically gives your entire group weapons that exceed normal weapon rating limits by 2.
A version of this power that actually accomplished this would be a significant improvement, but, as I said earlier, the current power does not in fact read this way.
The way it currently reads is that is is incapable of creating weapons that breach the power's cap, not that weapons created can be made to have a higher weapon rating that they otherwise would.
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 27, 2012, 09:03:19 PM
Okay, okay, I'll reword it.

But for what it's worth, I suspect you to be the only person who'd read it that way.
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: GryMor on September 27, 2012, 09:07:28 PM
Okay, okay, I'll reword it.

But for what it's worth, I suspect you to be the only person who'd read it that way.

That is how I read it. Spending multiple refresh to be able to conjure WR 2 one handed weapons seems rather silly when you can just have a WR 2, one handed melee weapon by the chart, but I'm pretty sure that is what tracing said it was doing.
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 27, 2012, 09:28:29 PM
If I read your post correctly, you had it right. You spend Refresh for the ability to create things out of nowhere in place of buying them with a Resources roll.

Tedronai was saying that even with the upgrade that lets you go beyond what's normally possible with mundane items, the power says that you can't go beyond what's possible with mundane items.
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: Tedronai on September 27, 2012, 09:44:38 PM
The power is not written so as to allow you to create items that are more effective than they would be had you acquired them normally.  It is written so as to restrict what you are able to create based on the item's weapon value.  The items that you create do exactly as they would had you acquired them in some other fashion.

Do you see the distiction?
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 27, 2012, 09:47:01 PM
Yes.

However, to my eyes the Power says that you can create items that you could not acquire in any other fashion.

Eh, academic distinction anyway. It's worth rewording even if it makes sense to the majority.

And it's possible that my interpretation is the weird one, I suppose.
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: ways and means on September 27, 2012, 11:29:36 PM
The idea behind the power is that at the higher levels it allows you to create legendary artifact replicas with higher weapon ratings. So without complex tracing you can equip your entire party with great-swords etc but with complex tracing you can equip them each with the there replica of legendary high weapon rating swords etc. A spear wielder on the team with someone with tracing would probably be using a weapons 5 Gungir replica instead of a normal lance, a duel wield expert would probably be duel wielding a Gram and Fragarach replica instead of a long and short sword. 
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 28, 2012, 03:06:59 AM
Okay, let's try to make Tracing better.

I went a bit further than planned here, because some options were missing and skipping scenes kinda sucks.

Also, why was that "one weapon at a time" limitation there? I guess uncapped item creation might get a bit out of hand (I fill the building with axes, trapping everybody in their offices) but I thought equipping a team was part of the point.

So yeah, pretty significant buff here.

It's not a strict upgrade, though. I tried to limit exploitability.

Still can't kill people with a rain of swords, which is kind of a pity.

Some of the wording here is pretty ugly. Please critique.

TRACING [-2]
Description: You have the ability to project items from your mind into reality.
Skills Affected: Craftsmanship, Weapons, Guns
Effects:
Projection. As a supplemental action, you may create a simple item out of thin air. As a full action, you may roll your Craftsmanship and create that many simple items instead. Items created this way may be no larger or more complex than a suit of chainmail. Melee weapons created this way are capped at weapon rating 3, while bows and thrown weapons are capped at weapon rating 2. Armour created this way can have a rating no higher than 2. Items created this way last until the end of the scene. You may sustain no more than a dozen projected items at a time. You may cause a projected item to vanish as a supplemental action.
Reinforcement. By spending a few hours you may cause one of your projected items to last indefinitely. This requires a Craftsmanship roll with a difficulty equal to the difficulty to build the item normally.
Artifact Tracing. If you possess the Item Of Power Collection Power, then you may create your Items Of Power through Projection. If their weapon or armour ratings are lower than what that trapping would allow, you may increase them up to those limits. This does not allow you to bypass the maximum amount of available Refresh though Item Of Power Collection.
Complex Tracing [-2]. You may create complex items with this Power. Anything no bigger than a motorcycle is fair game, though if the difficulty to create the item is higher than your Craftsmanship you must meet that difficulty with a Craftsmanship roll to do so. In addition, you may create explosives, firearms, and melee weapons with weapon ratings up to 5, thrown weapons and bows with weapon ratings up to 4, and armour with a rating of up to 3. You may not use Reinforcement on any item that could not be created through mundane methods.
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: Tedronai on September 28, 2012, 03:23:06 AM
Still has precisely the same problem as before.  I think you need an explicit clause excluding the created weapons from their normal ratings.
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 28, 2012, 03:37:49 AM
Really?

Okay, fine.

Anything else?
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: Tedronai on September 28, 2012, 04:00:54 AM
I have an immense dislike for 'special interaction' clauses such as the one above for Item of Power Collection.

There are a few instances that could use a language touch-up, but not in a way that, so far as I can see, actually hinders the intended effect.  But I'm not in the right state of mind at the moment to be able to go through and pick out where they are, why they're problematic and/or how to fix them.
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: ways and means on September 28, 2012, 04:17:43 AM
I think you might actually of made the power weaker, before the power had the advantage you could create permanent artifact level weapons with the new version there is no advantage over just getting buying the stuff making the power pretty useless for equipping a party.   
Title: Re: Need help statting a custom character template, Archer from Fate/Stay Night
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 28, 2012, 10:52:28 PM
I have an immense dislike for 'special interaction' clauses such as the one above for Item of Power Collection.

There are a few instances that could use a language touch-up, but not in a way that, so far as I can see, actually hinders the intended effect.  But I'm not in the right state of mind at the moment to be able to go through and pick out where they are, why they're problematic and/or how to fix them.

Any particular reason for the immense dislike?

I'm generally not a huge fan of them either, because they tend to be inelegant. But I see no better way to represent the intended effect.

If you ever find yourself in the right state of mind for fact checking, I'd appreciate a look-over. On this as well as the Possession stuff.

I think you might actually of made the power weaker, before the power had the advantage you could create permanent artifact level weapons with the new version there is no advantage over just getting buying the stuff making the power pretty useless for equipping a party.   

I removed a stupid exploit and made the Power more useful when used legitimately.

Permanently equipping someone with a weapon 5 sword is like giving them 1 Refresh that they must spend on a +2 stress with a sword stunt. You should not be able to do that. No permanent bonuses that you don't spend Refresh on.

Plus, making the Power's best use require skipped scenes is rather awful.

The new Power is actually better than the old one for equipping a party if you're not willing to skip scenes. One action and everyone can grab a weapon 5 spear for the upcoming fight. Plus you can create an infinite number of motorcycles/hand grenades/other awesome things for free. Just spend a few days of downtime.

(That's with the upgrade. Without it, its superiority is much clearer.)