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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: kereo on September 04, 2012, 07:16:23 PM
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Hey all,
First time poster, but have been lurking for a while. In our upcoming adventure, I'm playing a new character that uses sponsored magic. My character is the "Ebon Knight of the Nightmare Court". The idea behind it is that the Nightmare Court was basically absorbed into Winter during the Fae wars. It's ruler, was not too pleased about that and is now secretly undermining Mab, even going as far as to create his own knight, in the hopes of one day becoming the ruler of all of Winter.
I was discussing his spell options with one of our other players (who is a rule nut) and he basically claimed that sponsored magic can't do too many complex/powerful things and that it's underpowered (without incurring massive debts anyway). Here's the spells I was hoping to stat:
Horrid Phantasm
íomhá Uafásach (horrible image)
Manoeuvre
Makes the target see an illusion that instils fear, thereby unnerving him. (add aspect)
Cage of tormenting nightmares
Tromluí caighean (nightmare cage)
Manoeuvre/attack
A mental attack that locks the target in place for x exchanges as he is trapped in a hallucination. After breaking free, the target takes some damage as the mind makes the torture real.
Mind break
Liom briseadh (mind break)
Attack
Stabbing his sword into a sphere of shadowy energy, an illusionary blade appears and stabs the target in his head, dealing mental damage.
Wave of agony
Tonn céasadh (wave of agony)
Attack
A surge of shadowy tendrils bursts from the casters shadow, impaling enemies in the zone, dealing physical damage.
Would these be possible? Or are they overpowered in anyway and not possible with sponsored magic without incurring massive debt on use?
-Kereo
ps: if anyone is interrested I can post the (very) short story of why Auberon (couldn't find a better Fae name :P) decided to backstab Mab.
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Sponsored Magic isn't so much a power, but a collection of powers sharing some common traits. Because of this, it's difficult to say just what a particular form of Sponsored Magic can accomplish without seeing the writeup of that particular form.
That being said, aside from a bit of nitpicking (Cage of tormenting nightmares sounds like a combination Block and Attack, not a maneuver), I see nothing there that would be wholly unreasonable under some hypothetical Sponsored Magic, assuming it granted some degree of 'evothaum'.
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Well, the idea was "nightmare" magic. So stuff that deals with unnerving/scaring the crap out of people, by ways of illusionary and mental attacks. If that makes any sense.
Also, I found something about a revised pdf with the search function, but I can't find this document anywhere. Where could I find this?
-Kereo
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As far as I know, you don't incur debt but your character is beholden to your sponsor in a way. He's given you that power to further his own goals. That will be reflected by your aspects and compels. Your spells have to stay within the theme of the "element(s)". Yours are shadow/nightmare and your spells seem to reflect that. You shouldn't be able to run around casting light spells....
Mental damage spells might bring the Wardens down on you, though...unless your master is a signatory of the accords. It depends how your group sees sponsored magic and the Laws. But even if your group doesn't consider sponsored magic as Law-breaking, Wardens, in game, might still try to take you out.
I find sponsored magic is as powerful as regular magic because it can do as much - if not more - as long as you are creative enough within the limits of your Theme. Also, thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation is sweet.
Sponsored debt is something else entirely. It's getting access to a power from your sponsor that you don't typically have and, in return, you owe something in return (a compel). So, for example, you might want inhuman speed for a scene...although there's not much you can't replicate with sponsored magic.
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I agree with Tedronai for the most part, but I'd like to add that I wouldn't allow you to make mental attacks with evocation's speed unless you were making weapon rating-less thaumaturgy-as-evocation attacks.
Sponsored Magic is in no way weak, it makes Channeling + Ritual look sad.
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On the topic of debt, the character will have some aspect (like the high concept you posted) that mentions his relationship to his patron. This will be an aspect that is often compelled to have him act according to his sponsor's wishes. Additionally, whenever he uses his magic he may take a point of sponsor debt (potentially up to some limit) instead of/in addition to spending a fate point (granting a +2 or a re-roll). Then the sponsor can compel him using this debt (he does not receive a fate point for complying, nor can he get out of it without spending a real fate point). The above is all covered in the book in the Sponsored Magic long section. The note about taking additional powers may also be something you consider, this is covered in the section of the book where it covers temporary powers.
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Welcome!
As others have stated, Sponsored Magic is not at all weak, and the ability to Invoke aspects without FP expenditure is a nice bonus, although you do pay for it in the long run.
Like any other form of Magic, Sponsored Magic can do absolutely anything, as long as you can justify it. So as long as you say how your spell fits within your sponsor's agenda, you can do it.
As Tedronai said, Cage of nightmares looks a little vague as to what it does. If you post an explanation of what you wanted to achieve with the spell, we could put a mechanic to it. As written, it functions as more of a thaumaturgic spell than an evocation, what with the multiple stages. If your 'Nightmare magic' grants some form of thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of Evocation, that would be okay, although it would have a very high power cost.
Incidentally, your other player is mistaken about sponsored Magic - you don't actually ever have to take a point of Debt, its just there as an option. Granted, you will get compelled on the sponsor-relevant Aspect, but you shouldn't be getting these significantly more than the other players.
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As far as I know, you don't incur debt but your character is beholden to your sponsor in a way. He's given you that power to further his own goals. That will be reflected by your aspects and compels. Your spells have to stay within the theme of the "element(s)". Yours are shadow/nightmare and your spells seem to reflect that. You shouldn't be able to run around casting light spells....
That much I knew :)
Mental damage spells might bring the Wardens down on you, though...unless your master is a signatory of the accords. It depends how your group sees sponsored magic and the Laws. But even if your group doesn't consider sponsored magic as Law-breaking, Wardens, in game, might still try to take you out.
Yeah, we discussed it. Technically, he's part of Winter, so the wardens can't touch him directly. The GM did say that if they find out they might make his life miserable in other ways though ;)
As Tedronai said, Cage of nightmares looks a little vague as to what it does. If you post an explanation of what you wanted to achieve with the spell, we could put a mechanic to it. As written, it functions as more of a thaumaturgic spell than an evocation, what with the multiple stages. If your 'Nightmare magic' grants some form of thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of Evocation, that would be okay, although it would have a very high power cost.
Well, it's not a weapon attack. Basically, the idea is as as following: An opponent gets trapped in an illusion. In this illusion, he gets tortured continuously for what feels like ages. The mind however, makes this damage real (like in the matrix!). So, he gets a small amount of damage.
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Trapped how? Does it actually block actions?
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Nothing you listed seems out of the realm of your sponsor theme. Though as others have said Cage of Nightmares needs to be clarified mechanically. Normally you have to choose what type of mechanic you're blocking (movement, attacks, ect), and normally these don't do damage.
But sponsored magic lets you do evothaum. So in theory you could cast something that blocks multiple things and causes damage. But the power cost would be absurdly high and probably not very practical. Unless I just have a total misunderstanding of sponsored magic, it hasn't come up much in my game.
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Certain kinds of Sponsored Magic give you thaumaturgy at the speed and methods of Evocation, true. In this case, I'd say you'd probably get psychomancy, limited to causing fear/nightmares, which would open up Cage of Nigtmares for use, although this would be an extremely high-power-cost spell.
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Cage of nightmares...a spell that blocks all actions and also causes damage... hmm, sounds a lot like that spell that everyone hates!
I have no experience doing Thaum spells that do multiple effects, so I'm curious how it'd work. Would you set up the weapon power of the spell to be the strength of the block and then make the difference between the defence and attack be the damage? You'd also need extra shifts for duration.
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Do it as a grapple, but require an action to do anything other than block. Use the control roll for targeting. If the targets beats the targeting roll, no grapple.
Want to deal 1 stress? Standard action.
Want to place aspect? Standard action.
Then it's not broken. The reason Orbius is broken is that it ignores the action economy.
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Do it as a grapple, but require an action to do anything other than block. Use the control roll for targeting. If the targets beats the targeting roll, no grapple.
Want to deal 1 stress? Standard action.
Want to place aspect? Standard action.
Then it's not broken. The reason Orbius is broken is that it ignores the action economy.
Right on.
I probably wouldn't make it block movement. I'd let the victim run around or flee the visions it thinks are chasing them. It would block everything else though.
Probably Discipline would be the main skill to resist it, but Perception to notice what is ACTUALLY happening around them would work. Allies could try to break the block by trying to get them to snap out of it (maybe an attack that doesn't cause stress, or a might check...)
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Hi there, I'm the rule nut Kereo mentioned (I prefer the term power gamer).
My main problem with sponsored magic is the lack of power/control bonuses trough specializations and focus items, as well as the lack of enchanted item slots.
To illustrate my point: All hellfire does is give you one measly point of power/control when at the same refresh cost you could take evocation + refinement, resulting in up to 5 extra points of power/control.
Keep in mind though, this is coming from a combat oriented player so not much regard was given to taumaturgy.
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Hi there, I'm the rule nut Kereo mentioned (I prefer the term power gamer).
My main problem with sponsored magic is the lack of power/control bonuses trough specializations and focus items, as well as the lack of enchanted item slots.
To illustrate my point: All hellfire does is give you one measly point of power/control when at the same refresh cost you could take evocation + refinement, resulting in up to 5 extra points of power/control.
Keep in mind though, this is coming from a combat oriented player so not much regard was given to taumaturgy.
You are ignoring the thaumaturgy. Just because you don't care about doesn't mean the power doesn't give you the ability to do it. You're right, Evocation+Refinement is better than sponsored magic for combat. But it doesn't give you Thaumaturgy/Ritual, at all.
Sponsored Magic is actually a pretty good deal. Ritual+Channeling doesn't give you the +1 bonus, thaumaturgy at evocation's methods and speed, or debt.
Per RAW, none of the elements have the ability to do Psychomancy. This would remove your mental attack thing. Of course, sponsored magic could allow you to do this with evocation's methods and speed... Certainly Lawbreaking, though.
Cage of Nightmares doesn't work, per RAW. It's not a maneuver, and you can't have an effect triggered by your opponent's success. That is, you can't say "Oh, he beat my block and can move now, so that means he gets hurt!" You don't get a benefit for failing. We've discussed ways to make it work, however.
You could always take Evocation and Sponsored Magic. This would cost the same as Evocation and Thaumaturgy, allow you to specialize, give you some ritual, some thaum at evo's methods and speed, and a small bonus. Granted, this isn't "super powerful," but if you're going to Power Game, that means you have to follow the rules even when they DON'T benefit you.
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Our group always assumed you could have focus item slots with sponsored magic.
On pg. 287 it says,
"In practice, this is essentially equivalent to
taking the Channeling and Ritual abilities priced
at 2 refresh apiece, with the sponsored source
of power replacing the usual specialized focus"
And both Channeling and Ritual get Focus Item slots. Also, I don't think it ever states anywhere that you DON'T get the item slots.
There's probably been discussion about this before...have I misread this?
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Our group always assumed you could have focus item slots with sponsored magic.
On pg. 287 it says,
"In practice, this is essentially equivalent to
taking the Channeling and Ritual abilities priced
at 2 refresh apiece, with the sponsored source
of power replacing the usual specialized focus"
And both Channeling and Ritual get Focus Item slots. Also, I don't think it ever states anywhere that you DON'T get the item slots.
There's probably been discussion about this before...have I misread this?
Oh, I missed that in Rolf's last post. You absolutely get focus items. YS183.
"Notes: The cost of Sponsored Magic changes depending on whether or not you already have Evocation or Thaumaturgy. This also affects whether or not Sponsored Magic gives you any additional focus item slots. If you’re paying full price, you get four focus item slots with this ability. If you have either Evocation or Thaumaturgy, thus reducing the cost of Sponsored Magic, you only get two additional focus item slots. If you have both, reducing the cost more, you don’t get any additional focus item slots."
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Beat me to it. Was going to say I swore if you didn't already have channeling/ritual you get all the benifits of them with sponsored magic. Basically getting evothaum and sponsor debt for free.
Of course the trade off is your magic has to fit the sponsor theme and you can (and will) get regularly compelled by said sponsor.
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Ah, I wasn't aware of that. In this case, my original complaints are pretty much unfounded.
Thanks for clearing that up.
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Keep in mind though, this is coming from a combat oriented player so not much regard was given to taumaturgy.
Yes, an evaluation of a Power that ignores well over half of what that Power does is bound to find it lacking.
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Yes, an evaluation of a Power that ignores well over half of what that Power does is bound to find it lacking.
to be fair most RPGs kind of force the combat orientation down the players throat so that's how most players think.
That's why I like this system so much. Yu can make a character that has zero use in combat but can talk their way out of almost anything. Or a character that is pure thaumaturgy who can create a whole lot of narrative shortcuts for the players or pull of some tremendous spells with effects that would make combat focused wizards envious.
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Thanks everyone, for your input!
We're working on statting it out now.
-Kereo