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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Chrono on August 20, 2012, 01:02:45 AM

Title: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Chrono on August 20, 2012, 01:02:45 AM
I tried to introduce a Red Court Vampire as a recurring villain, and the werewolf in my group killed the vampire with a grapple. This occurred on Accorded Neutral grounds, so I have plenty of opportunities to work with the results, but now I am left without a recurring villain.

How do I create a great recurring villain that my players will love to hate? And how do I make them grapple-proof?
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Haru on August 20, 2012, 01:31:58 AM
"My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

Really, not even a villain is alone in the world. They might have families, co-villains, devoted underlings, etc. Any one of them can return with a grudge against the characters and try to make them pay. On accorded neutral ground, it could even be a minor opposition who demands the other forces of the accords to bring your characters to justice. Alliances are formed, pacts are made, there is a lot you can do there.

I think recurring villains only make sense if they have a strong connection to at least one of the characters. So if you bring in a new villain, make you players care for him, not only as an "end-boss", but actually as a recurring villain. The concession rules (YS206) might also be your friend here. Instead of fighting to the end, you can say "Ok guys, you got him on his last breath, you could kill him now, but Jeff, remember that he is the only one who knows about your father. If you kill him now, you will never find out what happens." Or something along those lines. The idea would basically be to let the players help create the villain, give him a background and a story and such, so that they would not want to kill their own creation.

On grapples:
A grapple is a block against every action the grappled character wants to do. As such, he can free himself with every action he tries to do. Well, within reason, but theoretically, he could do a great alertness roll and get free.

For a red vampire, there are a number of options: he gets at least inhuman strength, which gives a bonus on grapples. Inhuman speed with its bonus on athletics is also a great option, using agility against strength to get out of the grapple.
But for the most part: If a player of mine was stupid enough to try and grapple a red court vampire, I would unleash the red's narcotic venom on them. Use a fate point to tag the grapple aspect, and you should easily be able to apply the venom.

Also: do not forget to give your villains a nice big bag of fate points.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Mr. Death on August 20, 2012, 02:32:12 AM
I find my best recurring villains are the ones who don't actually directly conflict with the heroes all that much. They show up, maybe exchange a round of attacks, then leave to let the minions fight it out. The main villain gets to fight another day, the players get the satisfaction of smacking down a badguy, it's all good.

It also helps to put the recurring villain at such a power level that the heroes can't beat him yet. Make that part of the quest--gaining enough power to seriously challenge him.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: UmbraLux on August 20, 2012, 03:11:09 AM
Quote from: Chrono on August 20, 2012, 01:02:45 AM
How do I create a great recurring villain that my players will love to hate?
The best recurring villains are often those who didn't start out planned that way - they occur organically.  The weasel not quite evil enough to kill, the PCs' victim (accidental or otherwise) out for vengeance, or simply the determined pest who won't give up...they're not over the top evil but they are personal.  Making it personal is what makes it memorable.

Quote
And how do I make them grapple-proof?
It's not just 'grapple proof' you need someone who isn't going to get caught at all.  Cowards work well.  They'll always try to have a way out and, more importantly, they'll work through others whenever possible.  Whatever you do, never send a solo opponent against the PCs unless you don't mind chancing a loss.  Snipe and run.  Send hirelings in while watching from a distance.  Use indirect attacks.  Attack friends and allies.  Destroy their property.  Start a malicious whisper.  And run like the wind if they ever get close!
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: THE_ANGRY_GAMER on August 20, 2012, 10:29:17 AM
I've been tossing around an idea for a recurring cabal of RCVs for a while - the idea is that they're moving in on the city to gain an advantage in the Vampire War, so I've got four definite named NPCs: Regulo Qintana, the ex-special-forces (when he was alive) leader on the ground, Alberto de Braganza, a dilettante who's thee for political purposes and is nominally Quintana's superior, but who Quintana hates. Then you have Antonia de Carapuega, the general in charge, who the character's don't meet for a while, and isnt even in the city at first, and their first encounter is when she's trying to do something really bad, like blow up a neighbourhood with a thaumaturgic ritual, and finally Kevin McAllough, a venom-addicted mayor controlled by the Reds

This way, you get a heirarchy: Quintana is the one the PCs fight most, Braganza can be safely killed a couple of scenarios in, and McAllough can be removed from power, giving the PCs a sense of accomplishment, while Carapuega is the Big Bad, who you can build up to be seriously badass, but, because you only ever really have her offscreen, you're not going to end up with the wizard setting her on fire in their first meeting.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: admiralducksauce on August 20, 2012, 02:51:25 PM
For my group, it seems like it's partially about entertainment and partially about perceived threat. If you want a villain to survive contact with your players, they need to have some sort of inferiority to them so the players don't knee-jerk eradicate them.

Make them a coward. Parting jibes hurt far less than parting shots.
Make them combat ineffective, at least at first. My players kill powerful threats but let the snitches and middlemen live most of the time.
Make their goals counter to the PCs' goals, but don't make those goals "murder all the PCs". Steal an artifact, kidnap an NPC, blow up a building, but don't wade in thinking you're going to kill the PCs and talk your way out of it when it all goes sideways.

Now, you don't have to do ALL those things at once. That's not a recurring villain, that's a running joke. As a player, though, the one thing that makes me absolutely want to murder a villain is when they're vastly more powerful AND they gloat. Man, gloating powerful villains just skew too close to "the GM is having an asshole power fantasy" for me.

Finally, well, you gotta accept it when the werewolf DOES rip your "recurring" villain's head off. Whatever you had planned for that guy doesn't matter from that point forward, what happened was that he died messy, THAT's the story now, and adjust your plans accordingly. Square pegs and round holes and all that.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Silverblaze on August 20, 2012, 04:00:15 PM
Some of the greatest villains never fight.

Mr. Death has it right.

Lex Luthor ( aside from those p[ower suit debalces ><) can't fight Superman.  However, he is the man of steel's greatest foe.  He complicates his life.  Sends things to kill him...etc.

Most of Batman's villains go down in a few hits from the Dark Knight.  It isn't the fight that make them awesome.  They have schemes that span the city.

What I'm saying is find a reason the PC's won't just kill the bad guy.

Make the villain a family member to a PC (maybe an immortal one that is many times removed but still...). 

Maybe give the villain a IoP that does scrying (like a crystal ball.) [ Pretty sure scrying is supposed to be hard in the Dresdenverse...hence the reason I suggested a scrying device].  Have them cast thaumaturgy spells to mess with teh PC's and an unending supply of loyal minions. 

Find an NPC the PC's all like.  Then

A) turn them evil or insane
B) have one of the NPC's parents be a villain

hopefully the PC's are less likely to kill this type of antagonist   
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: admiralducksauce on August 20, 2012, 06:42:07 PM
Quote
Most of Batman's villains go down in a few hits from the Dark Knight.  It isn't the fight that make them awesome.  They have schemes that span the city.

The only snag here is that Batman doesn't kill people. If he did, they wouldn't be recurring foes.

Part of making a memorable villain is the ability to relate to them. Maybe that's a villain whose motivations aren't THAT bad, but whose methods are twisted. The sympathetic villain. "But for the grace of God go I", I think it's called.

I personally like it when villains' plans do NOT survive contact with the PCs. That extends to other media as well. Nothing's more believable and relatable than a bad guy whose grand scheme was blown wide open by the heroes and now has to scramble just as hard as the heroes to fulfill their dreams of world domination... or maybe just domination of Delaware... okay, they'll settle for making it out of that Waffle House in one piece!

Finally, the villain who kills the PCs' collective spouses and runs over their dogs is a cliche, sure. But it works, too. The cliche is just when EVERY villain tries to prove their villainy by doing that kind of thing. You need to save up that tragedy, use some of the excellent non-girlfriend-murdering advice in this thread for a few sessions, make sure the villain is memorable enough so that they'd be recurring even if they didn't resort to familicide, and only THEN spring the car bomb on the heroes' loved ones.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on August 20, 2012, 07:03:11 PM
I have a couple types of recurring villains in my game. 

There are cabals trying to resurrect Hecate who frequently run into our heroes.  These are a single threat, but even if the PCs kill one or two in the group, some of the Hags are always coming back.  They feed off of each other.  There's no "head" so even wiping out a trinity won't stop them.

I've got a black court vampire who is stronger than the PCs can match in a 1 on 1.  He does the whole "vanish while you fight the minions directly attacking you" thing.

We've got a human character that the PCs didn't kill because he surrendered.  He's come back a few times now, but snivels his way out of death by bribing them with information about the other threats.

There's a cop who's not really a bad guy, but out to get them.  He thinks they're terrorists, and that's a hard thing to deny.

Finally, we have an ally (character of a player who no longer plays) who has been sent to capture the PCs.  They left him out in the cold in a fight once, and he hasn't forgiven them.

So there are some ideas.  Things they can't kill (either because they're too strong, the PCs can't morally bring themselves to do it, it's a group which would have to be completely obliterated to destroy, or someone they trust and want to reason with). 

One on one, direct conflict is the easiest way to get a character killed.  If you don't concede, expect him to never come back.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Silverblaze on August 21, 2012, 01:19:16 AM
Quote from: admiralducksauce on August 20, 2012, 06:42:07 PM
The only snag here is that Batman doesn't kill people. If he did, they wouldn't be recurring foes.

Part of making a memorable villain is the ability to relate to them. Maybe that's a villain whose motivations aren't THAT bad, but whose methods are twisted. The sympathetic villain. "But for the grace of God go I", I think it's called.

I personally like it when villains' plans do NOT survive contact with the PCs. That extends to other media as well. Nothing's more believable and relatable than a bad guy whose grand scheme was blown wide open by the heroes and now has to scramble just as hard as the heroes to fulfill their dreams of world domination... or maybe just domination of Delaware... okay, they'll settle for making it out of that Waffle House in one piece!

Finally, the villain who kills the PCs' collective spouses and runs over their dogs is a cliche, sure. But it works, too. The cliche is just when EVERY villain tries to prove their villainy by doing that kind of thing. You need to save up that tragedy, use some of the excellent non-girlfriend-murdering advice in this thread for a few sessions, make sure the villain is memorable enough so that they'd be recurring even if they didn't resort to familicide, and only THEN spring the car bomb on the heroes' loved ones.

It is only half a snag.  My point is  - make the villain important to the PC's.  Just like Batman and Superman or Spider-Man for example (he may even be a better example honestly).  Hell most heroes....

Batman is personally connected to most of them.

Two-Face- they were friends.
Catwoman - well, they are connected intimately from time to time you don't kill your friend with benefits.
Joker - the only one Bruce should just up and kill - though Joker asks the question that haunts Bruce (would all these villains exist if Batman didn't?)
Most other villains have become important to him in some fashion throughout years of comics.
Most of them are insane and truly in need of help.

Freeze - just wants to get his wife cured (True Love anyone?)
Ivy - crazy and often anti heo material
Harley - same deal
Penguin - getting close to Joker territory, but i guess he's kinda crazy too.

Croc, Grundy, Clayface, etc.  Most have had reasons to hate the Wayne's or Bruce.  Also it is hard to justify killing truly insane people.  Unless you have some sociopathic tendencies.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Silverblaze on August 21, 2012, 01:20:19 AM
Could always go the Green Goblin route.

Make the villain an important politician or CEO.  Then have them drop the heroes girlfirend off a bridge. 
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 21, 2012, 06:36:12 AM
You could always go with a social character.

Senator Kelly is a villain to the X-Men, one that they can't defeat in combat.  In the early Dresden books Marcone is a great "background" villain.
(click to show/hide)
  That has me thinking that almost any old style criminal who knows a bit about magic could make a wonderful background villain - from the Godfather to Tony Soprano.

A Resource base character can complicate the PCs' lives by offering rewards to "crimes" connected to them (let's face it - most PCs see laws as things they shouldn't be caught breaking).  Make that person a former Changeling who regrets that he choose "mortal" and is targeting the PCs because they have the powers he lacks and you've got a thorn in their sides that will last for game after game.

A non-flashy caster - someone like Molly - could make a wonderful villain.

But to make a good recurring villain, the PCs have to care about the NPC.  Either it's a tragically flawed character or it has struck at someone close to the PCs - there has to be some hook to get the PCs invested.

Here are a few NPCs that you might be able to use.  One's a hit man with a code, one was warped and twisted by the pre-teen beauty circuit, one's a drug using creep, and the last is a good time thief/con man who doesn't see what he does as wrong.  None of them would work well in a stand up fight against a group of PCs but all of them have hooks you can use to tie them to your game in other ways.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30354.msg1288932.html#msg1288932 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30354.msg1288932.html#msg1288932)

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24639.msg1044245.html#msg1044245 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24639.msg1044245.html#msg1044245)

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24639.msg1044868.html#msg1044868 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24639.msg1044868.html#msg1044868)

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32803.msg1465917.html#msg1465917 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32803.msg1465917.html#msg1465917)

Hope this helps!

Richard
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: JDK002 on August 21, 2012, 06:36:51 AM
Very much agree with making the villain important to the PC's.  One thing I've always said about what makes a great villain great: The best villains always think they are the heroes.  They see the PC's as the villains, or misguided idealists at the very least.

Give the villain some kind of redeeming quality or moral grey area.  Magneto is a very good example of this.  Or keeping it in the Dresdenverse, Lara Raith or John Marcone are both good examples.

Also from a more mechanical standpoint, always make sure the villain has some sort of ace in the hole to give to the players.  Usually It's information or whatever maguffin the players are trying to get a hold of.  This lets you compel the hell out of the players to let the villain live to scheme another day.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 21, 2012, 09:48:12 PM
Thinking of great villains - some of the best I've ever encountered were in Glen Cook's book (and resulting series) The Black Company.

At the core of those books are average soldiers who are trying to stay alive in a Lord of the Rings type war, but the backdrop focuses on 11 immortal sorcerers who were buried alive then (after the 'eternal guard' had its budget cut again and again) rose to reestablish their empire.  Opposing Lady and The Ten Who Were Taken are the Circle of 18 - 18 modern wizards who think that they have what it takes to fight the Lady and the Ten.  Meanwhile, Lady's husband The Dominator (who took the ten and forced Lady to marry him) is still imprisoned in the Great Mound (Lady decided that it was her turn to rule and blocked his escape) where he schemes to get his revenge on the world...  And might have more power than Lady, the Ten, and the 18 combined.

Wow, I had forgotten how many Capital Letters that series used, but back to villains, there isn't a good wizard (or any wizard approaching good) in that book.  You have black mixed with shades of grey.  Even the ordinary soldiers on both sides are just average people caught up in the war who think nothing of slaughtering sleeping enemies or doing some raping and looting.  But even without heroes to use as foils, the villains shine.  Even the names stand out - and Cook makes each name a big part of the character.

There's Soulcatcher who speaking using hundreds of different voices, voices that are said to from the souls of his victims.
There's The Limper, a wizard who is a true survivor.  He might be limping and battered but he's going to go on killing.
Shapechanger, who has mastered shape shifting magic to the point that you never know if you're talking to him.

And so on.  If you're looking for memorable villains, there are some wonderful tricks that Cook uses in that book to make his villains stick in your mind.

Richard
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: UmbraLux on August 22, 2012, 01:46:14 AM
Quote from: Richard_Chilton on August 21, 2012, 09:48:12 PM
Thinking of great villains - some of the best I've ever encountered were in Glen Cook's book (and resulting series) The Black Company.
One of my all time favorites!  :)

They are good examples of villains as you point out.  Most are gray rather than pure evil (though a few come close), they're all willing to get personal - taking offense as well as giving offense, every single one is flawed in some way - none are perfect, and then there's the imagery - something unique about each.  The Limper, the Hanged Man, Shapeshifter, Soulcatcher, Howler, even the Lady - their names meant something and described them to everyone.  I'd even add the Company's standouts - several make for vindictive villains as often as anti-heroes.  Raven, Croaker, Goblin, One Eye, and even Silent - they all have their moments.

Definitely worth reading and provides good game fodder for a lot of things.  :)
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Silverblaze on August 22, 2012, 02:18:13 AM
Been dealing with Black Company in the current Dresden game I play in.  They fit well.

Other ways to make a recurring villain.

Something like Corpsetaker.  Works a lot like Malice of the Maruader team. (X-Men Villains)

Could always use Emperor Palpatine's trick via the novels.  Clone Banks!!!!
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Chrono on August 22, 2012, 05:22:29 PM
I have never heard of the series.

Something like Corpsetaker makes a lot of sense to me, especially if I can get her/it to switch with someone the PCs care about. I suppose the TV series featured a villain with a clone bank.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Mr. Death on August 22, 2012, 05:40:59 PM
Also keep concessions in mind whenever the villain does run into conflict with the PCs. Not every fight has to be to the death.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Chrono on August 22, 2012, 05:48:30 PM
Quote from: Mr. Death on August 22, 2012, 05:40:59 PM
Also keep concessions in mind whenever the villain does run into conflict with the PCs. Not every fight has to be to the death.

True, but how does one flee from death when the werewolf is grappling one to death and is compelled by another player to kill her and ignore her pleas for help?
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on August 22, 2012, 06:04:56 PM
Quote from: Chrono on August 22, 2012, 05:48:30 PM
True, but how does one flee from death when the werewolf is grappling one to death and is compelled by another player to kill her and ignore her pleas for help?

It's a good question.  My general rule here would be that if the PCs are going to play that rough, my NPCs will too.  But that's escalation.

Sounds like an Accords problem.  Also, players can't compel each other.  They may invoke an aspect for effect, but all compels must go through the GM.  If you don't like the compel, you can veto it.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Mr. Death on August 22, 2012, 06:10:48 PM
Quote from: Chrono on August 22, 2012, 05:48:30 PM
True, but how does one flee from death when the werewolf is grappling one to death and is compelled by another player to kill her and ignore her pleas for help?
The concession isn't an in-character thing, it's an out-of-character thing, which you negotiate.

So in this case, I'd suggest the concession is the villain managing to break free and run for his life.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: JDK002 on August 22, 2012, 07:06:00 PM
Agreed on the concession deal.  While this game is a lot more collaboratve than most RPGs, the GM still has the final say on the big stuff like compels and concessions to a lesser extent.

While you villain was at the players mercy, the concession could be he gives up vital information the players need.  But manages to use the downtime to break free and run, and now that the players have what they need they let him run.  If the players don't go for it you can always sweeten the pot with a few fate points.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 22, 2012, 07:18:43 PM
Quote from: Chrono on August 22, 2012, 05:22:29 PM
I have never heard of the series.

It's mentioned in the books because Harry reads them.  Before Changes he had the reissued hard covered editions on his bookshelf (mentioned in "Day Off" short story when the books are knocked over and fall on his head).

As mentioned by UmbraLux, virtually every important character in that series has a significant name.

The wizards because of how magic works - if you know a rival's True Name you can do very nasty things to him so they all take Use Names they use to describe themselves (and impress others).  The Limper has a limp, the Hanged Man has a twisted neck and rope scars on his neck, Tom-Tom beats a drum to focus his magic, etc.

The bulk of the other characters are members of a merc company where everyone takes a new name when they join - and if the boys don't like that name they just call the guy something else.  Pawnbroker (the company paymaster and loan shark) hates his name but that's what he's been labelled.  The company's doctor is named Croaker, the captain is Captain, etc.  Some of the names aren't really ear catching (there's Elmo, the Company's  chief sergeant), but using a name is a great way to make a character stand out.

You can find good villain names on the net.  Searching for "Dick Tracy villains" found a list that included: Pruneface, Pinkie the Stabber, Broadway Bates, Steve "The Tramp" Brogan, Dan "The Squealer" Mucelli, "Truffa" Dolan, Old Mike "The Smuggler", "Stooge" Viller, Deafy Sweetfellow, "Little Face" Finny, B.B. Eyes, 88 Keys - any of them could fit in a game. 

"You're looking for info on that? Well, you could try asking Pinkie the Stabber..." - and right there the players have a mental image of the NPC.  They're also wondering how he got his name, how does a name like "Pinkie" fit with "the Stabber", and as they wonder they become more invested in the NPC.

Richard
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Chrono on August 23, 2012, 04:38:23 PM
The name Elmo does bring a picture and personality to mind. Maybe a misleading name is useful, too. One of the players has serious Seseme Syndrome, thinking that most monsters are good and innocent and just misunderstood.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 23, 2012, 10:38:26 PM
You're right - but I didn't think of that Elmo when I read it.  You see, that book pre-dates Elmo's arrival on the Street....

And now I feel old...

Richard
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Jabberwocky on October 30, 2012, 01:59:23 PM
All the previous answers are good. I will add another one - make the PCs somehow indebted to the villain. Let even the villain show kindness (albeit for his own manipulative reasons). Some foes are there just for hate but others may be respected. And this brings moral conflict inside of the characters. One example. I'm new to the series but speaking of Red Court vamps, let's rebuild the story of Harry and Bianca a bit for your needs.

(click to show/hide)

These are memorable villains :-)
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Chrono on October 30, 2012, 02:42:46 PM
A very good answer. I thank you for sharing it. Some of the players are starting new characters and looking for an entry story. It is the perfect time to introduce a new villain in the manner you described. <insert evil grin>
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Arcane257 on October 30, 2012, 02:43:26 PM
Quote from: Chrono on August 20, 2012, 01:02:45 AM
I tried to introduce a Red Court Vampire as a recurring villain, and the werewolf in my group killed the vampire with a grapple. This occurred on Accorded Neutral grounds, so I have plenty of opportunities to work with the results, but now I am left without a recurring villain.

How do I create a great recurring villain that my players will love to hate? And how do I make them grapple-proof?

Your players already made one for you. You now get to spend the rest of the campaign having Mab torture and hound them for violating the accords. I would make her vengeance so wonderfully awful that it leaves at least the werewolf character wishing for death.... not that The Queen of Air and Darkness would allow that.  ;)
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Chrono on October 30, 2012, 02:46:53 PM
0.0

You know what? I haven't even introduced Mab into the campaign.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: JDK002 on October 30, 2012, 03:45:56 PM
Another thing to consider is the "comic book villain" approach in the instance the villain does die per game mechanics.  The great villains never truly die, even when they technically DO die.  They always come back eventually in some way, shape, or form.

Some standard tropes for this are:

It was a clone, a double, a cyborg robot, a magical construct, their twin brother, ect.

It was the villains body, but his mind is still in tact in some way.  Magically projecting the entirety of his mind into someone else (this would make for a fantastic death curse IMO), digitally uploaded his brain into the form of an AI, ect.

The villain had kin.  A son who's the spitting image of the villain, a parent who's even more of a terror than the guy you killed, a vengeful spouse, ect.

The villain is so powerful/clever that he managed to cheat death.  He had minions who followed the villains "plan Z" and brought him back to life, the villain is so ruthless and tenacious that he actually managed to find a way out of whatever afterlife he was in and come back to the realm of the living, having a deal with some dark power that prevents him from dying before a set time/circumstance, ect.

The bumbling clueless person who accidentally brings them back.  Reading from some old creepy book some teenagers find in a cabin, a would be warlock accidentally brings back the past/alternate universe version of the villain into the present day.

Some of these examples obviously don't work in the Dersdenverse, and I wouldn't use these as a crutch if the players keep killing your villain over and over again.  If your intended recurring villains keep dying, then they probably aren't very good villains in the first place.  So you as a GM need to be a good villain, always have a backup plan!  ;D
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Jabberwocky on October 30, 2012, 04:24:17 PM
No problem, pal :-) I remember one of my first epic NPC/villain failures some 15 years ago. It was Shadowrun and I meticulously prepared a powerful NPC whom I really liked. She wasn't plain evil, just very very egoistic. And rude. And crazy as hell. Know what? The PCs killed her off with ease in a scene best described as parodic. Man, was I angry :-D But a few years later (same campaign and PCs) I revived her as a vengeful ghost (technically free spirit in SR2) and the PCs stopped laughing. This time she was truly after them and wanted them dead.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Ophidimancer on October 30, 2012, 05:17:55 PM
Quote from: Arcane257 on October 30, 2012, 02:43:26 PM
Your players already made one for you. You now get to spend the rest of the campaign having Mab torture and hound them for violating the accords. I would make her vengeance so wonderfully awful that it leaves at least the werewolf character wishing for death.... not that The Queen of Air and Darkness would allow that.  ;)

I think the thing about using Mab is you have to emphasize that sh'es unstattable.  It's not like you can fight her, but she also prefers to make things interesting instead of just killing people who violate the Accords.  Have her judiciate that the characters are in violation and then enforce something that the characters find really repugnant and have them do that.  They owe a debt to the Red Court and the Reds will want to collect, but it's not like they care about each other.  This won't be vengeance, it will be business.  So they will be looking to turn the debt into something useful for them while at the same time making it an abject lesson to never mess with them.

Maybe they send your characters up against Harry and friends in a maneuver in the War.  Ha, wouldn't it be funny if the characters just make themselves look awful in front of Harry and Harry ends up a reoccurring antagonist?
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Jabberwocky on October 31, 2012, 03:42:18 AM
Chrono: Heh, it's 3 AM here and as I'm lying down with a flu and can't sleep a rather entertaining idea crossed my mind. Let's modify a whole story arc :-)
(click to show/hide)

I think I'm going to use that for my campaign :-)
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Chrono on November 06, 2012, 11:26:48 PM
Love the idea of repopulation. I had thought of letting the characters participate somehow in the extermination, so that would be an added bonus.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Jabberwocky on November 07, 2012, 10:56:46 AM
Ah, yes. Plus, I love to confront my PCs with ethical problems occasionally. Not too often, of course, but sometimes it should be hard to meet a decision.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: fantazero on November 14, 2012, 01:07:28 AM
Quote from: Ophidimancer on October 30, 2012, 05:17:55 PM
I think the thing about using Mab is you have to emphasize that sh'es unstattable.  It's not like you can fight her, but she also prefers to make things interesting instead of just killing people who violate the Accords.  Have her judiciate that the characters are in violation and then enforce something that the characters find really repugnant and have them do that.  They owe a debt to the Red Court and the Reds will want to collect, but it's not like they care about each other.  This won't be vengeance, it will be business.  So they will be looking to turn the debt into something useful for them while at the same time making it an abject lesson to never mess with them.

Maybe they send your characters up against Harry and friends in a maneuver in the War.  Ha, wouldn't it be funny if the characters just make themselves look awful in front of Harry and Harry ends up a reoccurring antagonist?

I'd say put her at a 7 or everything, but there are times when Harry is able to socially outwit the Fae.
Title: Re: How Do I Make A Great Recurring Villain?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 14, 2012, 02:35:58 AM
It's true, you can fight Mab. Just not with your fists.

I'd give her social skills of around 5ish, personally. Physical skills might be lower, since Mab doesn't get her hands dirty much. Spellcasting skills and Contacts/Resources would of course be higher. I'd probably put her skill floor at 3 and her skill cap at 8.