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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Zuriel on July 15, 2012, 04:26:27 PM
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I've never used a beta (not easy to find one :-\ ), but I know many do. So, I'd like to know...besides the obvious checking of spelling and grammar...what does a beta do for you?
Do you only use a beta for the nuts and bolts aspect? Or for content, too?
How much do you rely on a beta? If they make a suggestion, are you more likely to change your story, based purely on what they say?
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(pleas remember
a;) i have only used one once for a few chapters
b.) i am not a published or anything author
c.) i am a 17 year old girl and so don't know everything
when you read this
so you are reading this informed of the reliabilaty and accuresy of what i say)
they can sugest things that would improve the story
infact they often do
but you are the one that makes the finel desision on things
so it may be better to have more then one
they can suggest words that will flow better ect
and also give opinones on the content but i think only if you ask for it
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What I tend to do is ask questions about concepts to see how fleshed out the writer has them. From there a Beta should watch for continuity mistakes and small oversights. Alpha readers watch plot flow and the like as well, or at last that is my understanding.
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I understand published authors using a beta, for all of these reasons, and that makes sense. There's a lot at stake.
But I guess I have the old-school thought that I should take full responsibility for my stories, and if I make mistakes, then so be it.
But then I can also take all the accolades for writing a good one, if I'm lucky. ;)
Maybe I'm just not into sharing... ::) Or maybe I'm just frustrated - jealous maybe? - because I've not been able to find a beta. :(
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if i could do the spelling grammar thing i would offer to look at it
but yours is better then mine ::)
you will fined some one i am shore
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Oh, I know you would if you could...but that's ok. I've been doing all right without a beta...I think...so I'll survive without one. :D
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yeah
but i am shore some one will maybe be willing to help you
if you ask nicely
if i could yeah
*inert miner mone about genetic mutation here*
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LOL! I just had this image of Mutant Ninja Wolfgirl flashing through my mind...unstoppable...with a never say never attitude. And please take this as a big compliment. ;D You are awesome!
Someday...maybe a beta...but right now RL is waiting - impatiently. :-\
Have fun! Gotta run!
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:-[ ;D
lol thanks yeah mutent nija wolf i like that
;D
have fun and be safe in RL Z ;D
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LOL! I just had this image of Mutant Ninja Wolfgirl flashing through my mind...unstoppable...with a never say never attitude. And please take this as a big compliment. ;D You are awesome!
Someday...maybe a beta...but right now RL is waiting - impatiently. :-\
Have fun! Gotta run!
you will see why soon
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Nuts and bolts here, for example:
-Does the story hang together/function as a cohesive whole?
-Any plot holes you can drive a truck through?
-Good proportion of action to character to plot-driven scenes?
-Do the characters behave consistently throughout?
-Any glaring factual errors or period anachronisms?
-Is the work consistently readable and does it hold your interest?
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-Does the story hang together/function as a cohesive whole?
-Any plot holes you can drive a truck through?
Those are definitely levels I appreciate my betas checking, though thus far it would seem I am pretty good at not leaving gigantic plot holes all by myself.
-Good proportion of action to character to plot-driven scenes?
I think I get some benefit on this front too; because I appear to be atypical in how totally boring I find action scenes, so I tend to underdo them unless I can make them plot-vital.
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I've never used a beta (not easy to find one :-\ ), but I know many do. So, I'd like to know...besides the obvious checking of spelling and grammar...what does a beta do for you?
Do you only use a beta for the nuts and bolts aspect? Or for content, too?
Not sure what scale of distinction you are making here ?
How much do you rely on a beta? If they make a suggestion, are you more likely to change your story, based purely on what they say?
I am unlikely to change what the story is trying to do. If I have written a scene that's meant to achieve X and they see it as trying to achieve Y, I'll usually change the scene (even if it succeeds at doing Y), because usually whatever the scene is trying to do has to fit in a very specific place in what the book is trying to do.
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To answer the OP: it depends on the author. There's an entire continuum of what authors need/want from betas, from pure mechanics to thematic analysis/critique and everywhere in between.
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If I gave my story to someone to read, I would want them to check for spelling and grammar, check for continuity issues, check for blatant mistakes and plot holes and tell me if there is anything that they particularly liked or disliked. Spelling and grammar I would fix. Anything else I would examine and determine if it was really a mistake or if I knew something that the reader didn't. As far as what they liked and didn't like, if one person told me, I might ignore it. If everyone that read it told me that they didn't like a scene, I might look it over and see how I could change it. What you need from a beta reader would partly depend on what you are writing. If you're writing hard Sci Fi you might want someone who could check your science. If your righting military fiction you might want someone with some knowledge of history and/or of weaponry.
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I completely failed to find my great checklist for crits. I'll keep searching.
As for me, I'm now convinced that I don't want anyone to read my work until I have it as ready as possible. Amazingly, that point gets further along my process line as my writer's proficiency scale increases with every work and every year. The bottom line is that it's not right for me at this point. I'm needing to write more than I feel the need to receive feedback. (And sorry, that is part of the reason that I haven't been around. I'm not sure that is healthy or not, but for now, it feels right.)
I would suggest that before you have someone read your work, ask yourself, 'why do I want to have someone read my work before it is ready?' The honest answer might be revealing. Are you seeking affirmation? (In which case, you don't really want the honest truth.) Are you seeking grammar, plot and character feedback detail before you should be? (Why get caught up on the grammar etc. before you've gotten through your first several drafts? It just detracts from your writing goal and takes you off course.)
On the other hand, a friendly brain to share some basic problems that you run into is an incredible gift. If you have a scene that has you stumped, it's invaluable to talk through it with a friend. Also, a friendly brain with technical expertise (on your science knowledge, for example) is equally invaluable. These I value at this point far more than checklists or input on my characters, for example, when I know they aren't there yet, or the plot hole that I haven't stuffed, or the world that refuses to fall into place.
I look forward to having someone read my pages in the future will happen, but for now, it's not the time.
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I would suggest that before you have someone read your work, ask yourself, 'why do I want to have someone read my work before it is ready?' The honest answer might be revealing. Are you seeking affirmation? (In which case, you don't really want the honest truth.) Are you seeking grammar, plot and character feedback detail before you should be? (Why get caught up on the grammar etc. before you've gotten through your first several drafts? It just detracts from your writing goal and takes you off course.)
How about "because I'm very cognisant that me not being able to see anything wrong with it doesn't mean there aren't any problems" ? I'm not willing to assume that my skills at writing new stuff and at reading it critically will necessarily advance in lockstep.
On the other hand, a friendly brain to share some basic problems that you run into is an incredible gift. If you have a scene that has you stumped, it's invaluable to talk through it with a friend.
Oh, agreed entirely. Ideally someone else who writes and is a bit better than you.
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That is a totally valid reason. It sounds like Meg has a fantastic idea of where her writing goes. Truth be told I think shes wrong, an outside perspective can give invaluable advice before the work is done.
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Truth be told I think shes wrong, an outside perspective can give invaluable advice before the work is done.
No work is ever done, it's just abandoned at a point you can bear to put it down.
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I find I've frequently a disconnect between the ideas in my head and the words I've herded into a story. Some concept, key instance or pivotal line of dialogue that I thought about working in there, or that seemed clear and obvious to me, that just isn't there for Joe Reader.
So for me, in addition to pointing out the rough edges on clumsy sentences or paragraphs, my betas serve to give me feedback so I can make sure I've got the flavor and tone I'm shooting for as well as make sure the key story and character points are there.
My betas thus provide "Why does this matter? Why did so-and-so do this and not that?" questions which are what I need to go back and ensure things make sense to Joe Reader and not just me. Their impressions of my characters themselves also let me know when I'm steering a depiction in the direction I want, or if I need to do some adjusting of character consistancy or attitude.
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wow PG sounds like you have some grate batas
as some of you Neuro and Z for one noticed
when i got to the end of the short story i was atempting to write i kinda sid it was rely bad
i had to have other people look at it (like Z) as i could not think of it in any way but the what i thought about one bit of it
but a different perspective helped a lot in pointing out it was not quite as bad as it could have been
my point is that what we write we for opinones of (be it a good one or a bad one) and so we can not be objective (is that the write word? hay i can spell it that's cool) about are work so some times having others look at it can help
so i guess i also disagree with meg
plus as much as i love writing i have problems with spelling so need help with that ::)
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I find I've frequently a disconnect between the ideas in my head and the words I've herded into a story. Some concept, key instance or pivotal line of dialogue that I thought about working in there, or that seemed clear and obvious to me, that just isn't there for Joe Reader.
So for me, in addition to pointing out the rough edges on clumsy sentences or paragraphs, my betas serve to give me feedback so I can make sure I've got the flavor and tone I'm shooting for as well as make sure the key story and character points are there. e.
Yes, definitely, and for me world points tend to come up even more so. Some of the fictional universes I'm writing in, I have been working with for ten or fifteen years; it's awfully easy for me to have things about those universe so fundamentally obvious in my mind that I don't notice I've not actually clued them in sufficiently in the text. Betas who are good at noting that are lifesavers.
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actualy neuron you said you started around 1995 witch means closer to 15-17 years
(i know this because it was the year i was born :P)
witch probably means i just managed to make everyone here feel very old so i shall shut up now before you come after me with pitch forks or some thing
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actualy neuron you said you started around 1995 witch means closer to 15-17 years
True, but I haven't been working entirely in the same fictional universe for all that time; there've been a number of different ones.
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that makes sense
i have only been writing for about 4 years and i have written in diffrent universes
but mostly stick to the same one
unless i take up a short side project
witch is not often
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I beta for several people, and it is up to them to say whether I am a good beta or a bad beta. That said, this is what I do:
1 -- Is the story worth telling. This is a hard thing to discuss. Publishers will determine in a first page if they continue. So a Beta must be able to be honest enough to say, I don't think this will grab people enough to be publishable. Then a beta has to go the next distance and tell the author why. It isn't enough to say: I don't have an emotional connect with this character. You must go the next step and say why you don't, and then suggest how it might be remedied.
2 -- Fact checking. A story based upon a false premise can not ring true. That said, a good Beta also should check to see if there really is a Rylance Drug Corp in Sheboygan, and if so, the author has to consider changing the name vs being sued for saying they are selling poisons.
3 -- Spell, syntax, punctuation. Stories which flip tenses, are full of misspellings run on sentences and poor structure will be circular filed by the publisher. The author should make a best attempt to present a beta with these in fine form. A beta will ferret out where the author missed a beat, and point it out.
4 -- I trouble. The author is not the character, When the author is too in love with the character and when that shows, it is a sign of I trouble. Betas should point this out. (See: Mary Sue)
5 -- Redundancy redundancy redundancy. The beta should be certain to let the author know NOT to use the same word over and over and over and -- oh yeah -- over. If I am distracted by seeing the same word at the beginning of every sentence in a paragraph, or every paragraph on a page? Let the author know. Editors and publishers will be less... indulgent.
6 -- You keep using that word (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk). Sometimes even the best of us gaff on a word. A beta can suggest a new word. A better word.
7 -- Betas do not rewrite in their own image. NO NO NO! The beta's duty instead is to get the Author to hone what s/he is writing in the manner that they are writing, Beta's don't recut the diamond, they polish the diamond so it shines.
And that, in my humble opinion is what a beta does.
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WOW that is very useful and rely nice of you to type that all out
(even if you did not to post that is help full)
thank you :)
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Welcome. Yeah, that is all me. Blah blah blah blah.... how I go on and on!
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lol
err i don't think it was blah i think it was help full :)
and your not a little chatter box
like me *looks at post count*
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2 -- Fact checking. A story based upon a false premise can not ring true. That said, a good Beta also should check to see if there really is a Rylance Drug Corp in Sheboygan, and if so, the author has to consider changing the name vs being sued for saying they are selling poisons.
Am I the only reader whose first reaction to a geographical error is by default not "mistake" but "this is a clue that we are in an alternate history" ?
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um what ?
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If a writer seeks to establish an alternate history/geography, it had best be presented on a far more solid backdrop than, "is this a geographical error or a different universe?" The fact that point X is six hours from point Y is not how you do that.
If a beta says, hey, your facts are wrong and the writer says, that is a plot point to establish --whatever-- then the beta did due diligence. (Plus, the beta can snap at the writer's heels if it doesn't ever come up again, or make a lick of difference!)
Human nature makes us not want to say: Ooops! Human nature makes us want to say: I meant to do that!
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I beta for several people, and it is up to them to say whether I am a good beta or a bad beta. That said, this is what I do:
1 -- Is the story worth telling. This is a hard thing to discuss. Publishers will determine in a first page if they continue. So a Beta must be able to be honest enough to say, I don't think this will grab people enough to be publishable. Then a beta has to go the next distance and tell the author why. It isn't enough to say: I don't have an emotional connect with this character. You must go the next step and say why you don't, and then suggest how it might be remedied.
2 -- Fact checking. A story based upon a false premise can not ring true. That said, a good Beta also should check to see if there really is a Rylance Drug Corp in Sheboygan, and if so, the author has to consider changing the name vs being sued for saying they are selling poisons.
3 -- Spell, syntax, punctuation. Stories which flip tenses, are full of misspellings run on sentences and poor structure will be circular filed by the publisher. The author should make a best attempt to present a beta with these in fine form. A beta will ferret out where the author missed a beat, and point it out.
4 -- I trouble. The author is not the character, When the author is too in love with the character and when that shows, it is a sign of I trouble. Betas should point this out. (See: Mary Sue)
5 -- Redundancy redundancy redundancy. The beta should be certain to let the author know NOT to use the same word over and over and over and -- oh yeah -- over. If I am distracted by seeing the same word at the beginning of every sentence in a paragraph, or every paragraph on a page? Let the author know. Editors and publishers will be less... indulgent.
6 -- You keep using that word (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk). Sometimes even the best of us gaff on a word. A beta can suggest a new word. A better word.
7 -- Betas do not rewrite in their own image. NO NO NO! The beta's duty instead is to get the Author to hone what s/he is writing in the manner that they are writing, Beta's don't recut the diamond, they polish the diamond so it shines.
And that, in my humble opinion is what a beta does.
Yeah this is a pretty good example of what a beta can/should do. The only thing I'd add right at the moment. At least for me, when I am reading a work in progress, I tend to get this.
"Oh oh oh! Are we going this way with the plot or that? And are we totally going ream these bad guys with all these brand new toys we might just have picked up with our main characters? I mean its totally there!"
Which of course might just be me. On the other hand we all have different strenghts and weaknesses. You need Beta's who are good fits for you.
I think reemphasizing Blaze's point about Beta's helping polish the diamond to make it shine better, not trying to cut a whole new gem is one worth saying again. As a Beta you aren't there to rewrite the story in your own image or take the story from this point and write it into the future. No our job when we're Beta's is exactly what she said. We help the inherent coolness of the scene or character shine through, we help trim off the rough edges and help bring out what the author was trying to create. We don't plant a new seed beside it and say, oh but this would be an ever so much better plant than that one you have had up till now.
At least that's the goal. With varying levels of success.
The Deposed King