...or anyone Marked by Power.
The WC claims jurisdiction over human magicians (whether they like it or not) but they don't claim jurisdiction over magic users whose magic is sourced from some Power. Additionally, the wardens have the capability of Seeing an individual's power and/or power source. Makes mistakes unlikely.
That said, if the Power behind the knight is not a signatory to the Accords the WC (probably not the warden unless he's a stubborn git) may choose to act and take the risk of irritating the sponsor. Particularly if they think the sponsor is weak. But that's not about enforcing WC Laws anymore, it's more about vengeance.
I agree with Radecliffe and BecqI agree completely! :p
The WC claims jurisdiction over human magicians (whether they like it or not) but they don't claim jurisdiction over magic users whose magic is sourced from some Power. Additionally, the wardens have the capability of Seeing an individual's power and/or power source. Makes mistakes unlikely.This I disagree with. I think the WC claims jurisdiction over all human magicians except those "waived" by the Accords. Or even more, all magicians human or otherwise, except those waived. They might not be capable of exerting control over some, but they claim jurisdiction nonetheless. Examples: Kemmlerian Necromancers. Hellfire wielders. Anyone gaining magical power through Outsiders.
Are we talking about the laws that the Warden enforce or the laws in regards to the Lawbreaker power?Just the enforcement issue, I think.
Only a slight quibble here. There are lots of ways to be marked by power and not all of them good. Isn't Harry Marked By Power due to his encounter with He Who Walks Behind? That's less a "He's under my protection" mark and more a "I'm going to eat him later" mark.To clarify, I don't see them attempting to enforce WC laws against anyone Marked by a Power. Not even if the power is He Who Walks Behind. That doesn't mean they won't attempt to kill said individual out of vengeance, a desire to protect others, or some other reason. The only thing preventing vengeance et al might be an Accord signatory or simply fear.
Wouldn't that depend on whether they Recognize the Power and what their relationship is with said Power?It shouldn't be too difficult to recognize they're not (just) a human mage (if a mage at all) - Marked by Power even makes that automatic. The Sight makes gathering more information reasonably easy and is something which should (not necessarily will) be done before irrevocable action is taken.
Are we talking about the laws that the Warden enforce or the laws in regards to the Lawbreaker power?I'm just talking about WC enforcement.
This I disagree with. I think the WC claims jurisdiction over all human magicians except those "waived" by the Accords. Or even more, all magicians human or otherwise, except those waived. They might not be capable of exerting control over some, but they claim jurisdiction nonetheless. Examples: Kemmlerian Necromancers. Hellfire wielders. Anyone gaining magical power through Outsiders.Just the enforcement issue, I think.This may be a difference in definition - I don't consider solely sponsored magic users to be mages/sorcerers/wizards. They're not using their own power, they're channeling someone else's. Do note, that's my definition. I'm not going to argue that you couldn't define them differently. ;)
Fair enough; replace the word 'magician' with 'magic user' or 'wielder of magic' or 'spellflinger'. The Laws (at least as presented in the DFRPG) generally refer any time "magic is used to X". And I don't think that the Wardens are going to distinguish much between a mortal who makes a pact with a demon, then uses Hellfire to fry someone or a self-taught mortal sorceror who uses Dresden-style magic to fry someone. (Except perhaps in terms of danger assessment.) If that someone got fried by Summerfire, then the situation is different, because anyone using Summerfire is very likely to be representing the Summer Court, a signatory to the Accords. At least, that's my take on it.
And I don't think that the Wardens are going to distinguish much between a mortal who makes a pact with a demon, then uses Hellfire to fry someone or a self-taught mortal sorceror who uses Dresden-style magic to fry someone.As long as the Accords aren't in play I provisionally agree some wizards will decide to take down the killer, sponsored or not. I simply see it as an individual decision...in large part because I do not consider the White Council to be "good" or even looking out for the "good of mankind". With a few notable exceptions they're in the game for power. They police and defend human mages because of the Accords and to maintain a power base...not because they're nice guys. ;)
not because they're nice guys. ;)Oh, absolutely!
This is why we have divisions and betrayal within the White Council...they're in it for themselves. There are exceptions of course, Harry being a notable one.
I do recall that, which is why I referred to the more general case of mortals making pacts with demons. Denarians are a very small subset of the total demon population, and while they would be protected by the Accords, other demonic pacts would not -- the Accords tend to be very specific, and I strongly doubt that the fact the the Order has signed on suddenly extends umbrella coverage to every demonic entity any more than the fact that Marcone has signed on extends umbrella coverage to the entire mob.
In addition to Warlocks, wardens also handle demons, werewolves, ghosts, faeries, fallen angels, Black Court vampires, Red Court vampires, White Court vampires, cultists, necromancers, zombies, specters, phobophages, half-blood scions, and jann - among others.
Richard
When doing so does not violate the Accords, or when the White Council is already engaged in open hostilities with that group, or when the Warden in question has 'gone rogue' and is thus not truly acting as a representative of the Council.
Just the enforcement issue, I think.
Actually, the Lawbreaker status is also important. Would someone who gets their power *wholly* from the Fae Courts actually get Lawbreaker if they broke a Law?Not in my opinion. But this changes a lot from one group to another. It tends to depend on how you define just what "human magic" is and whether or not that applies to sponsored magic. See my comments and Becq's on the previous page for examples of said differing opinons.
Actually, the Lawbreaker status is also important. Would someone who gets their power *wholly* from the Fae Courts actually get Lawbreaker if they broke a Law? The Wardens are another issue altogether, albeit one that has taken over the thread.
However, if you accept my propositions, that the Order represents the greater part of conduit entities for the granting of Hellfire to mortal would-be-practitioners, and if mortals having entered into a pact by way of members of the Order would be viewed as associates of the Order (and thus granted some protection as members under the Accords), then, while not all users of Hellfire would be explicitly protected by the Accords by way of the Order, the mere plurality of mortals so protected would give implicit protection to the rest by way of the fear that pursuing them would be pursuing a protected individual regardless of the fact that that protection is only perceived and not real.I can't really agree with this, either. First, I suspect that the total number of demons in existence is many times more than the 30 Denarian coins. Apparently one estimate by Pope John XXI (before he became Pope) was that 133,306,668 angels fell with Satan. I have no idea how he came up with that estimate. But since 133,306,668>>>30, there's a lot of room for noise in that estimate and still result in an overwhelming majority of demons who do not reside in coins. Of course, since this is DF that we're talking about, we'll have to ask Jim Butcher how many there are (we have seen at least a handful of non-Denarian demons in the novels).
I can't really agree with this, either. First, I suspect that the total number of demons in existence is many times more than the 30 Denarian coins. Apparently one estimate by Pope John XXI (before he became Pope) was that 133,306,668 angels fell with Satan. I have no idea how he came up with that estimate. But since 133,306,668>>>30, there's a lot of room for noise in that estimate and still result in an overwhelming majority of demons who do not reside in coins. Of course, since this is DF that we're talking about, we'll have to ask Jim Butcher how many there are (we have seen at least a handful of non-Denarian demons in the novels).
Of those who CAN grant it, not all will be WILLING to on any regular basis.
The gross number of demons in existence is irrelevant to my proposition.
Basically, not all demons are likely to be ABLE to grant the use of Hellfire. (this excludes the vast majority of 'low-level' demons, but very few if any of the Denarians)
Of those who CAN grant it, not all will be WILLING to on any regular basis. (this excludes some unknown number of demons residing Downbelow, but likely not a single one of the Denarians)
Of those who CAN and are WILLING to grant it, the vast majority do not have regular contact with the mortal world and so have very few opportunities to do so. (this excludes almost every demon in existence EXCEPT the Denarians)
The end result being that if you identify some random (seeming) mortal as making use Hellfire, unless you know substantially more about the source of his power than that it is, in fact, Hellfire, you have at least a reasonable suspicion that he might be affiliated with the Order of the Blackened Denarius.
And if you care about the Accords, it's in your best interest to take at least a few minimal precautions on the assumption that they are protected.
But...The dark powers are ALWAYS willing to help....
All you can say is that this a working theory. But no way is there enough known about just who is willing and able to grant a practitioner access to Hellfire. There is still way too much we don't know about that end of the street in the Dresdenverse to make this a factual statement.This is why I presented it as a 'proposition'.
My theory (and it's just a theory) is that you have to be Angel, Fallen Angel, or otherwise connected to the "divine" to grant it. I'm basing that on the naagloshii's reaction to seeing Harry use it.'Almost as rare' in this case being about the same difference in rarity between demonic vs angelic action in the world in a more general sense.
From the naagloshii's reaction, soul fire is pretty rare - and since hell fire is the other side of that coin it should be almost as rare.
Richard
And I don't think that the Wardens are going to distinguish much between a mortal who makes a pact with a demon, then uses Hellfire to fry someone or a self-taught mortal sorceror who uses Dresden-style magic to fry someone.Members of the OotBD don't fit into that category. And if I were to replace "demon" with Fallen", then the only change that would need to be made is that the Warden might take a quick look to see if there are any coins stuck to the mortal spellflinger before lopping his head off.