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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: ways and means on June 22, 2012, 12:36:51 AM
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As far as I can tell from the novels all the power of the setting comes from will, magic (my will shapes reality), Faith Magic (I decide something is true therefore it becomes true) and even the power of the major players (gods, arc-angels etc) comes from people choosing to believe in them. Now I don't want to have a philosophical or religious debate here I am talking completely in setting but what would people do if players decided to bring this bit of Jim's world in game what if the players set up a 1000 strong cult that worshiped them or what if they were a celebrity (modern day celebrities have larger numbers of follower than many pre-BC religions could have hoped for) could they tap into the power of this belief?, would Chuck Norris (if people actually believed the meme) really be able to punch out an army?
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I think that faith powers are treated differently in the DFRPG than in the novels. In the novels, it seems clear that "faith powers" are powers granted by the Almighty, and that certain relics (the Swords) might function based on the amassed faith of those believing in them (though either of these might be the interpretations of the characters speaking about them, rather than "reality").
In the DFRPG, the faith powers seem to be very specifically a function of the belief of the character with the power:
As such, these powers are usually seen in seemingly ordinary people—but their power of belief has made them extraordinary and supernatural.
I prefer the interpretation that the powers are a divine gift, but the RAW does seem to treat faith powers as being a variant of the same "my will shapes reality" that powers non-divine magic.
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I think that faith powers are treated differently in the DFRPG than in the novels. In the novels, it seems clear that "faith powers" are powers granted by the Almighty, and that certain relics (the Swords) might function based on the amassed faith of those believing in them (though either of these might be the interpretations of the characters speaking about them, rather than "reality").
In the DFRPG, the faith powers seem to be very specifically a function of the belief of the character with the power:I prefer the interpretation that the powers are a divine gift, but the RAW does seem to treat faith powers as being a variant of the same "my will shapes reality" that powers non-divine magic.
The Sword of the Cross works as a focus of belief (so again coming from people not from god) which seems to go with my interpretation, actually even Soul Fire's power (the gift of angels) comes from ones internal energy (soul) rather than a divine source which kind of implies heaven doesn't give out mana (magic power) the same way hell does.
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The Sword of the Cross works as a focus of belief (so again coming from people not from god) which seems to go with my interpretation,
Yes, the dialogue by the characters in the novels support this, as I mentioned. Though DFRPG version actually implies that only the character's motivations (ie, must be selfless) matter, and that belief (either the character's or that of the religeon as a whoel) doesn't really enter into consideration. For example, the DFRPG description implies that the Sword could be used to rescue a child rapist or mass-murdering vampire from legitimate capture by police or other authorities ... so long as the wielder did so "selflessly". I disagree strongly with this, but that's how the RAW is written.
actually even Soul Fire's power (the gift of angels) comes from ones internal energy (soul) rather than a divine source which kind of implies heaven doesn't give out mana (magic power) the same way hell does.
While I understand that opinions on this vary, I would argue that both of them tap the power of God's creation (the soul) to power magic. In the case of Soulfire, this takes the form of self-sacrifice; for Hellfire your patron is loaning power harvested from previous customers against what I shall refer to as a "future balloon payment" once the loan expires (Hell doesn't give anything away). But both are, as Jim has stated "two sides of the same coin". In both cases, the capability to tap that power is granted (or not) by a divine (or formerly divine) source.
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A person owns his souls just as strongly as s/he owns his mind or will (arguably even more strongly the soul be the center of the Individual) so claiming that accessing soulfire is accessing divine magical rather than individual magical power seems a little odd when the soul is the individual. The power to use the soul as a source of magical energy is granted by Angels though this does not prove the power couldn't be gained without angelic support via an alternative method.
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In Turn Coat, the Naagloshii recognised the Soul Fire. He expected to find it used only by a believer. To quote:
“Who gifted you with the life fire, little mortal?”
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The skinwalker’s smile widened. “I find it astonishing that you could call forth the very fires of creation-and yet have no faith with which to employ them.”
Back to the topic, there doesn't seem to a link between numbers of believers and the amount of power you have to throw around. There may be a link between the number of people who know about a power and that power's ability to cross from the nevernever, but not the being's overall power level.
Today's population is just so much larger than it was back in the bad old days. There are likely more neo-pagans calling on Odin today then he had worshipers back in the age of the Vikings. Back in the year 1000 (the near the end of the Viking Age) the Scandinavian population is estimated to be (numbers taken from http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/other_books/appendix_B.pdf (http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/other_books/appendix_B.pdf)*) about 1 million.
If a mere one percent of the 6 billion living now cry "Hail Odin" then that's 60 million. If a mere one tenth of one percent of the people living now call "Hey Odin", that's still six times the number of people living in Scandinavian back then - yet Odin has come down in the world.
That's the same across demographic lines. No matter how small of a percent of today's population fits a certain category (for example, virgins that Grundelkin can mate with) there are almost certainly more people in that category today than in 1800. If those people equaled supernatural power, then the Dresdenverse would be overrun by petty godlings.
Richard
*Broken down as:
Denmark 360, 000
Finland 40, 000
Sweden 400, 000
Norway 200, 000
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Beliefs get you Artha.
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Of course, the population explosion is a relatively recent thing. It's possible that certain powers in the DF world are aware of the problem and enacting plans to do something about it.
There's the additional complexity of some things being empowered as people and some things being empowered as concepts. For example, did the green revolution make summer more powerful? Or is it representative of summer gaining an upper hand? Or are the exact relationships of cause and effect very tightly twined around each other?
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Ah but remember the white god gets 2.3 Billion Christian votes +1.2 billion Muslim votes that is 3.5 billion over half the worlds population and more than enough power to keep the other gods in line or to suppress their power, also remember the old gods also got sacrifices to power them up and I am pretty certain a single sacrifice is worth a very large number prayers (what with a single life having great significance in the Dresden files).
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I think that faith powers are treated differently in the DFRPG than in the novels. In the novels, it seems clear that "faith powers" are powers granted by the Almighty, and that certain relics (the Swords) might function based on the amassed faith of those believing in them (though either of these might be the interpretations of the characters speaking about them, rather than "reality").
In the DFRPG, the faith powers seem to be very specifically a function of the belief of the character with the power:I prefer the interpretation that the powers are a divine gift, but the RAW does seem to treat faith powers as being a variant of the same "my will shapes reality" that powers non-divine magic.
I don't see a differentiation between the novels and the RAW. You have to have a high level of faith for the power of the Almighty to work though you. Harry has a high level of faith in magic. It's like a laser. You can power a laser lots of different ways using lots of different types of light but they all need the a lens to focus the energy.
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The Sword of the Cross works as a focus of belief (so again coming from people not from god) which seems to go with my interpretation, actually even Soul Fire's power (the gift of angels) comes from ones internal energy (soul) rather than a divine source which kind of implies heaven doesn't give out mana (magic power) the same way hell does.
I'm sorry but I completely disagree with this interpretation at least where the sword is concerned. Yes, the ABILITY to use Soulfire was a gift (at least in the novels) but the power itself comes from the caster. OTOH the books and the rules seem pretty clear to me that there are greater powers in the universe and at the top of the heap is the Almighty himself and he can grant his true believes a measure of power because he has the juice to spare.
If you were to set a game in a setting a 1000 years ago I would say it would be perfectly ok to say that Odin granted powers to HIS true believers because he had the juice to spare. Now, not so much.
I think what bothers me the most is by your interpretation all power is just different flavors of vanilla and that is no fun at all.
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Really there is no evidence in Dresden verse that the Almighty created the setting the fact that God's seem to be powered by comparative belief (why Odin etc are now comparatively weaker than the one God) seems to indicate people came first. There is noting to separate the White God from the other God's except 3.6 billion followers as opposed to several million followers for the other God's. We have seen nothing to indicate that an incredibly powerful Ganesha and Buddha aren't floating around the setting (the only other two religions in the billions). True Faith powers are powered by Faith which in turn empowers Gods in setting not the other way round (gods powers true faith).
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If you read the section entitled "Gods" (OW60; also the table on OW28) it pretty well summarizes the "best available truths" regarding religeon in DF. You'll notice some equivocating ("It is said"), and some of the material is 'new' to the DFRPG, thus making it a secondary source -- but until Jim reveals more, its what we have.
And what we have is that at the top of the power tree by orders of magnitude is "The Almighty (AKA the Creator, Michael’s Boss)". We also have that "most gods are the first generation scions of angels, demons, or powerful beings of the Nevernever. Some of them are derelict angels—not cast out of Heaven, but just departed on their own." There's a definite distinction made between all of these assorted gods ("Greek, Roman, Norse, Amerindian divinities, African tribal beings, some Australian Aboriginal gods, others in Polynesia and southeast Asia, and about a zillion Hindu ones") and "the Almighty, the “capital G” God, and Jesus Christ".
There is talk about how the little-g gods may vary in power scale due to lack of mortal worship and such, but there is quite definitely a large distinction many between "gods" and "God" in the world of the Dresden Files.
Note that all of the above is discussion of religeon in the Dresden Files, you are free to believe in absolutely anything you want in real life.
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Well God still wins the believer power chart by about 2 billion people and has been fed countless sacrifices (animals etc), though if you really wanted to stress that angle ever holy war and inquisition could be seen as massive ritual sacrifice, which could easily explain his top spot and absolute supremacy. (In setting)
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Also note that God, the Archangels, etc. are repeatedly and consistently noted as having power of "creation," almost certainly meant to imply that He and they, well, created everything. Or if not everything, then at least a hell of a lot. Point is, they're portrayed as creators, and on a different scale than anything else in the setting.
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Well God still wins the believer power chart by about 2 billion people and has been fed countless sacrifices (animals etc), though if you really wanted to stress that angle ever holy war and inquisition could be seen as massive ritual sacrifice, which could easily explain his top spot and absolute supremacy. (In setting)
Or it could have something to do with the little-g gods being the first generation offspring of the Big-G God's servant (per OW).
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I don't think there's any evidence in the novels, except one ambiguous sentence in what Odin says about the Lords of Outer Night, to suggest belief in a god = power of that god, or even necessarily worship in general = power (sacrifices specifically are a source of power, yes, but that's not specifically 'religious' - works fine for warlocks ).
The power of belief we've seen is power for the believer, not for the object of belief.
When Odin explains why he can't just smack down the Lords of Outer Night, he talks about advantage of location (Chichen Itza is the LotON's power center, someplace in Scandinavia is his) and that the Norse pantheon has fallen apart. Never mentions lack of worship. He does say that the LotON were once worshiped by many, but he also says the power of their blood is divided among thousands of descendants, whatever that means .... at the very least, it doesn't seem to be a straightforward belief/worship = power thing. Advantage-of-location comes up with the naagloshii in Turn Coat too. We have much more evidence for gods and god-like entities having power based on where they are and something to do with their relationship with their 'pantheon' or others of their kind (Odin and the Norse gods, the LotON and 'dividing' their power among their descendants...) than based on worship.
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Preface: I think this thread could easily spiral into bad territory. I hate having to type 1 million disclaimers. I tried my best to be inoffensive in my post. These are only my opinions; how I'd run my game, and how games I play in handle such things. I plan to post in this thread sparsely ( do not take silence for inability to argue my points, more like inability to do so kindly or within the forum rules) - I really am adamant about thios IRl and in my gaming and I keep the two seperate as possible.
That said; here's what I think.
If the holy powers come soley from belief then I want the following to be contemplated:
Holy: indicates it hurts evil (as is evidenced by examples in the book/what monsetrs catches are)
Belief: is a scary thing; it can be very good or very bad. It is very powerful regardless of the ends. It can also lead to fanaticism or absolute lunacy. In theory strong fait in cans of tuna should grant power. While that sounds stupid to most normal people, the right person might think it makes perfect sense. This leads me to believe said belief should not add holy powers to this individual. JUST MY OPINION.
There is no accountability for a character who is a zealot if the powers come only from their own belief, then --- lets use the X-Men as an example. This example is used to avoid any real world groups or religions.
The Purifiers beleive they are doing God's work in killing stinkin' muties. These Muties did nothing wrong, many were children ; they still kill them.
Dresden Files - witch hunters should not get holy powers becuase much like mutants - witchs and wizards etc aren't always evil or in opposition to the Almighty's plan (as per the Dresden Files universe)
I liken Holy chracters in DFRPG to Paladins or Clerics in D&D: they don't have to be goody two shoes at all, but if they screw up bad enough...no more power for them!
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if they screw up bad enough...no more power for them!
This.
Even if they have absolute faith that their actions were perfectly ideal.
More practically, Rampaging Murder-Hobos (TM) should not gain bonus damage from Holy Touch while attacking Knights of the Cross just because that Knight happens to be wearing clothing of mixed fibers, or some other BS.