Tedronai, I would agree with you but the example in the book gives me a clear enough vibe, a suicidal goody two-shoes to the end, but that is something you could twist and turn enough to be a real pain in the arse every now and again.
You can only use Soulfire if you've got the White God's blessing
Unless I missed a WoJ, somewhere, we have nowhere near enough information on the subject to support that conclusion.You mean besides Uriel all but saying as much to Harry--that Harry was granted the ability to use Soulfire by Uriel, with the further implication it's because he was able to turn Lash to the light side? Or that Bob tells him that's how Angels do their thing (i.e., it's the power of God and the Angels)? How Thorned Namshiel calls it "our power," i.e., that it's power belonging to Angels?
Unless I missed a WoJ, somewhere, we have nowhere near enough information on the subject to support that conclusion.
You mean besides Uriel all but saying as much to Harry--that Harry was granted the ability to use Soulfire by Uriel, with the further implication it's because he was able to turn Lash to the light side? Or that Bob tells him that's how Angels do their thing (i.e., it's the power of God and the Angels)? How Thorned Namshiel calls it "our power," i.e., that it's power belonging to Angels?
Yeah. Nothing at all to suggest such a thing, I don't know what I was thinking.
There's also the write up in the book - it states Soulfire [...] follows an agenda "in line with Heaven".This is what we call 'begging the question'.
Soulfire draws on the "fires of Creation"Which is evidence of nothing more than that which is referred to as 'the fires of creation' could also be accurately referred to as 'soulfire'. It is irrelevant to the question of whether Soulfire properly has a Sponsor external to the soul of the user themself.
This is what we call 'begging the question'.I'm not sure you know what that fallacy means...I quoted a (presumably) authoritative source (the rule book). If you don't accept the book as authoritative you have a point. But then we also lose any common point of view to discuss from.
The ability to use Soulfire is given to Harry by an Angel but as the power comes from him (his soul) I can't see how it could have an agenda different from Harry's own.
I'm not sure you know what that fallacy means...I quoted a (presumably) authoritative source (the rule book). If you don't accept the book as authoritative you have a point. But then we also lose any common point of view to discuss from.I was claiming that the very source you used, while authoritative for the purposes of the game as written, itself makes a claim not supported by the novels upon which it is based. Referencing YS, then, as evidence that YS is accurate in its presentation of Soulfire, is a fallacious response to my claim.
If the crux of the argument starts with, "Okay, first just ignore everything we've actually been told about it (except for the single bit that supports my point)," then maybe it's not the right one.Please don't misrepresent my argument. I'm not 'ignoring everything we've actually been told about it'. I'm saying that the ONE source that actually claims that the power comes from Heaven (YS, not the novels) is supported, at most, circumstantially by ALL other references to the power that I'm aware of (ie. the novels) if not outright contradicted.
So, basically, other than exposition in the novels and YS, there's no evidence that soulfire's sponsor is heaven? I guess Hellfire's sponsor is also ambiguous?Please point to the exposition in the novels that ACTUALLY SAYS that Soulfire is sponsored by heaven, rather than simply used, and in one instance imparted/enabled/taught.
Kemmlerian Necromancy - yes, the agenda is basically "use more necromancy". I'm not sure it necessarily goes into 2-d cackling villain mode though; think Kumori. Her goals involve using necromancy a lot, to change the world radically, but it's not "Yay death and zombies!" Definitely very corrupting, distinctly evil, but it can be a subtler kind of "regardless of the consequences", "ends justify the means", believing you have the right to control everything 'for its own good' evil too.
Soulfire - I can see at least two ways to interpret this. One is that the ability to *use* it is provided by Heaven/the (Arch)angels/God, and so it acts just like "Heaven sponsored magic" would even though it's fueled by your soul. The other is that it's just your soul - all Uriel did was 'show Harry how' or 'open the channels' - and the agenda is based on your true/better nature (which may be very different from 'what you want right now').
“Well,” the skull said. “Soulfire is…well. It’s Hellfire, essentially. Only from the other place.”Seems pretty straightforward. Hellfire is something you get from Hell. Soulfire is something you get from Heaven. Hellfire is used to destroy stuff. Soulfire is used to create stuff. In the books, Hellfire makes Harry's magic more destructive but less controlled, while Soulfire doesn't make it stronger so much as lets it be used with amazing control.
“Heavenfire?”
“Well…” Bob said, “yes. And no. Hellfire is something you use to destroy things. Soulfire is used the opposite way—to create stuff. Look, basically what you do is, you take a portion of your soul and you use it as a matrix for your magic.”
"Does the same apply to hellfire/soulfire. What would happen if Harry were to take up Lasciel’s coin and then try to use soulfire and hellfire together? Would that result in Harry dying horribly?”So angels can technically access both Hellfire and Soulfire, but in practice what they use their power to do dictates which magic is used. The Fallen, who seek to oppose God's Will, use Hellfire. The one who didn't Fall, and who uphold God's Will, use Soulfire.
Those are different. They’re really two sides of the same coin–but they can’t really exist together like that. They aren’t explosively reactive, but they aren’t additive, either. Which one came into the person to be used would depend on the person who was using it, and what they were using it for.
Angelic types have access to both. Which one they use is partially what determines what /kind/ of angels they are.
“Heavenfire?”Is not this:
“Well…” Bob said, “yes. And no.
Soulfire is something you get from Heaven.
If you're going to quote the novels, at least don't blatantly misrepresent their content immediately afterwards. It's just shameful.I didn't; you did.
I am having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around some of the sponsored magic flavours. Soul-fire requiring goodynies I can live with, but Kemmlerian Necromancy really ticks me of. What source of power does it draw on, specifically? I can only think of death itself and I just don't see death as having so much of an agenda.
I feel that if an bad guy is using sponsored magic this should limit him somehow, allowing the players to get an edge in once they recognize the pattern, but what does kemmlerian force a necromancer to do what he would not have done already?
The same goes for the layline sponsor in the neutral grounds case file. I understand that some sources might be more mysterious and knowledgeable, but that seems to make them also unplayable or at least flavourless and bland when they come in to play.
Anyhow, I am sure this has been addressed in the past, I just haven't been able to find it yet.
“Heavenfire?”
“Well…” Bob said, “yes. And no.
“Well,” the skull said. “Soulfire is…well. It’s Hellfire, essentially. Only from the other place.”
“Heavenfire?”
“Well…” Bob said, “yes. And no. Hellfire is something you use to destroy things. Soulfire is used the opposite way—to create stuff. Look, basically what you do is, you take a portion of your soul and you use it as a matrix for your magic.”
“Heavenfire?”
“Well…” Bob said, “...no."
“Heavenfire?”As in: Soulfire serves a similar, opposed function as Hellfire (which is the 'yes'-part), but unlike Hellfire it is power within you, used and controlled by you for your purposes.
“Well…” Bob said, “yes. And no. Hellfire is something you use to destroy things. Soulfire is used the opposite way—to create stuff. Look, basically what you do is, you take a portion of your soul and you use it as a matrix for your magic.”
RE: SoulfireThat's Bob talking about what it's used for. And it still ignores that Bob says right before that it's from "the other place." He explains how it functions differently, saying that it does different things in a different way from Hellfire, but the fact remains that Harry can only use this power--at all--because he got on the good side of an Archangel (and, by extension, the White God).
I read the quote like this:As in: Soulfire serves a similar, opposed function as Hellfire (which is the 'yes'-part), but unlike Hellfire it is power within you, used and controlled by you for your purposes.
And compels would be similar to Harry's exhaustion after unintentionally blasting those RCVs and Bob remarking how his soul was shredded because of it.
You know, Kemmlerian Necromancy makes a lot of sense as self-sponsored magic. Which doesn't exist, by canon, but whatever.
The sponsor debt system works fine even without a sponsor or an agenda.I agree completely. It is workable as a completely internal system, akin to Lawbreaking in a way. I'll even agree that it actually makes more sense to treak it as a corrupting influence rather than external manipulation.
But Your Story is clear when it says that Sponsored Magic is external to the character using it.
Maybe it does. You could claim that the Necromaner's own darker nature is the sponsor, similar to the way that Harry talks to and is sometimes at odds with his own subconscious. So long as there is an opportunity for the character to go into hock to something with an agenda that will occasionally be at odds to his best interests the sponsor debt system works fine.
Kemmlerite Necromancy final agenda would be tearing the veil merging life and death the way to achieve this more and bigger necromancy.