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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Zuriel on May 28, 2012, 03:34:18 PM
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Which do you prefer? A story told in first person or third person? Does it depend on the author?
Just curious, because another group I'm in seems to thumb their noses at First Person storytelling, but now that I've read all the DF books, I'm thinking I like it even more than I did before I read DF. I've tried it a few times and thought it worked very well, but those were short stories. I have a series of short stories I want to write and am wondering if I should stick with third person. Any thoughts on this?
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for my book i mostly write in first person
this is rely fun as it is rely easy to get diffrent vew points across and as i normaly have disabled chrs in my book showing what that is like for them is easia in first person
i can do third person it has advantages like you can show what is going on in other plases with out having to be rely clever aboutt your vew point shifts
infact you don't have to do them
but first person has disadvantages other then vew point shifts can become very nesersery you have to keep trace of hat is going on and what they will and will not notice
it takes mor planing to do first person but i think it is more fun to write
but that is just my vews on it
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I know First Person has limitations as you described, but what makes it attractive to me is I can put more detail into the thoughts of the person than I normally would be able to do in Third Person, and do it without using as much dialogue, if that makes any sense.
I've also written a short story both ways, first and third, and almost always, the first person narrative won out over the third, so I'm thinking I should pursue this line of writing with my new series, which is completely centered around the main character. Maybe it makes a difference if you're using your "main" character as a group or team, instead of an individual. In that case first person wouldn't work as well to me. Mmm...I feel inspiration coming on...
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yes that is why i like first person better
yes useing more then one main chr works better in first person and a few years back it was a bad habit of mine to get borad of a chr so swap to another one
how ever the story ended up being rely good and got me an A in my english class so i have mostly stuck with this method of writting
it in my opinone is rely fun
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I don't have a real preference. It just depends on the author's skill and on the story being told. Both have strengths and weaknesses.
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that they do
personly i prefur writing first person
you don't have to do redicules long diologs to revile stuff
but thats just me
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Personally for reading I take it anyway that seems to fit. Even 2nd person.
I've noticed that most if not every UF novel is First person. Which leads me to my second point.
I started out writing in Third Omniscient--it's my default POV-- but after being told by editors and writers that readers don't go in for that anymore I try to just do Third Person. But I've noticed that, probably as a result of reading so many UF novels, that now I tend to want to do First person, especially when doing UF. In fact of 12 to 15 UF-paranormal short stories and five novels I've only done one in Third. I started it that way and decided it fit for that novel.
Other types of stories seem to be a mixture of First and Third, sometimes within the same story... Oops. :)
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Personally for reading I take it anyway that seems to fit. Even 2nd person.
I've noticed that most if not every UF novel is First person. Which leads me to my second point.
I started out writing in Third Omniscient--it's my default POV-- but after being told by editors and writers that readers don't go in for that anymore I try to just do Third Person. But I've noticed that, probably as a result of reading so many UF novels, that now I tend to want to do First person, especially when doing UF. In fact of 12 to 15 UF-paranormal short stories and five novels I've only done one in Third. I started it that way and decided it fit for that novel.
Other types of stories seem to be a mixture of First and Third, sometimes within the same story... Oops. :)
Mmm...I wonder why UF leans more towards First Person than Third? I don't actually read any other fiction at the moment - and it's been a long time since I have - so I can't compare other genres this way. Interesting.
that they do
personly i prefur writing first person
you don't have to do redicules long diologs to revile stuff
but thats just me
One of my strengths, I discovered, is writing dialogue, which does seem to be difficult or not appealing to a lot of writers - at least the ones I hang out with online. Most of them write without using dialogue at all or very little. I've tried that for a few very short stories and it was a struggle not to put dialogue in! It's just in my genes, I guess. :)
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i personly love writing diologe but i know it can not always work in a seen
with my genetics sound is easia to write then sight witch exsplaines why i like to wright in the vew point of some one that can not see
like i said i vew point shift some times (not as often as i used to) this helps ilistrate the diffrence between you lot and me witch is rely fun and chalaging to write ;D
good luck with witch ever you chose
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As a reader, I prefer UF in the first person. I enjoy the perspective of being in the MC's head. UF uses so many contemporary references, that I don't immediately need an A to Z, full and complete, explanation of the novel's world. I like it when the UF novel's reality comes to light through the MC's interaction with their world, rather than a lot of exposition about the rules and characters of the novel's world. I don't remember an UF novel I've read that is in the third person. Either I've never read one, or I read it, and forgot about it.
I prefer third person, or switching between third and first POV, in my other favorite book genres -- fantasy, high fantasy, and science fiction. Third person provides a chance at a detailed explanation of the unfamiliar worlds of novels in those genres. Without a third person perspective, or a MC that talks to themselves way too much, I'd be initially lost when beginning to read fantasy, high fantasy, and science fiction.
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I don't really care which POV when I'm reading.
3rd person omniscient is sort of an odd duck and takes a bit of getting used to as a reader. Watership Down is written in 3rd person omniscient.
I have written in both 1st person and 3rd and both have their strengths and weaknesses.
They say beginning writers should avoid 1st person, but it seems a lot of people break this rule and get published. Most UF authors. Like some one else said almost all UF is in 1st person.
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When I first started reading DF, my initial reaction to the first person narrative was huh? what's this?...but the more I read, the more I liked it. I agree with you, Naomi, that for the reasons you mentioned, a first person perspective works so well. I'm really loving seeing the world through the eyes and voice of the MC, so now I'm hooked. And my next series of short stories I write are definitely going to be told by the MC.
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I don't really care which POV when I'm reading.
3rd person omniscient is sort of an odd duck and takes a bit of getting used to as a reader. Watership Down is written in 3rd person omniscient.
I have written in both 1st person and 3rd and both have their strengths and weaknesses.
They say beginning writers should avoid 1st person, but it seems a lot of people break this rule and get published. Most UF authors. Like some one else said almost all UF is in 1st person.
I'll read both, too. If it's a good book, it doesn't matter which is used. But I'm fairly new to this writing thing (strictly for my own pleasure with no objective to get published), and I'm not clear on what third person omniscient is. How is it different from plain ole third person? Just curious. Never read Watership Down.
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... and I'm not clear on what third person omniscient is. How is it different from plain ole third person? Just curious.
My understanding is that third person omniscient is a narrator that literally knows everything about the novel's world (past, present, and future), plot(s), as well as each character's inner thoughts and motivations. Every single thing. As opposed to third person limited, where the narrator of a novel has some sort of limit to their knowledge put in place by the author. A third person limited narrator might not know, or have access to, anymore details than the main character.
edited: to change "may" to "might." Why? *sigh* Because my inner editor keeps bugging me ...
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I like both, fwiw but I tend to read 1st POV faster than 3rd. The reason is simple, with 1st POV there is always only a single story line being developed, so its easier to get fully absorbed into the story. In 3rd POV there are usually shifts in the story that jump from following one character to another. Those jumps are an opportunity to put the book down, and so its less likely I will feel that compulsion to turn just one more page, and keep going through the night. But 1st POV carries its own restrictions along the same lines; it becomes hard to present any information to the reader without letting the narrating character know. So 1st POV is ore immersive, but more restricted; 3rd POV gives you a broader, but slightly more distanced perspective.
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My understanding is that third person omniscient is a narrator that literally knows everything about the novel's world (past, present, and future), plot(s), as well as each character's inner thoughts and motivations. Every single thing. As opposed to third person limited, where the narrator of a novel has some sort of limit to their knowledge put in place by the author. A third person limited narrator may not know, or have access to, anymore details than the main character.
Sometimes it indicates that you are following a specific character or group of characters. CA is Limited 3rd POV as far as I can tell. It is written in the 3rd POV voice, but is told from a short list of character perspectives, so that the reader only knows what those characters do, rather than the more universal perspective of Omniscient
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Which do you prefer? A story told in first person or third person? Does it depend on the author?
Just curious, because another group I'm in seems to thumb their noses at First Person storytelling
Yes, this is common situation--even with some agents, but most who represent YA or UF seem fine with it.
Honestly, you settle into what is comfortable for you and your own style--and it will change for different works and over time.
What is your natural style? If you accidentally switch POV, that can be your inner muse telling you to switch. We all write to our laziness while in draft mode. Therefore if you natuarally slip into 1st, stick there. If you naturally slip into 3rd, stick there. IF you naturally do 1st, but you want the 'easy' plot out of 3rd--you might be getting lazy.
Make your natural tendency work first by putting elbow grease and butt in chair time. After that is supremely comfortable, shift to the other. That shift might take several years.
As to 2nd? Short story maybe, but it only works for me when I want the character or the story to be insanely irritating.
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My understanding is that third person omniscient is a narrator that literally knows everything about the novel's world (past, present, and future), plot(s), as well as each character's inner thoughts and motivations. Every single thing. As opposed to third person limited, where the narrator of a novel has some sort of limit to their knowledge put in place by the author. A third person limited narrator might not know, or have access to, anymore details than the main character.
edited: to change "may" to "might." Why? *sigh* Because my inner editor keeps bugging me ...
That is my understanding too. I like it that way reading and writing. Many of the SF Masters wrote that way-which might be why it's my default style-- but now supposedly readings do not like it. So it's usually Third Person limited or First. There is such a thing as Second Person but that is hard to do and some readers don't like it either. If done right I like it.
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Yes, this is common situation--even with some agents, but most who represent YA or UF seem fine with it.
Honestly, you settle into what is comfortable for you and your own style--and it will change for different works and over time.
What is your natural style? If you accidentally switch POV, that can be your inner muse telling you to switch. We all write to our laziness while in draft mode. Therefore if you natuarally slip into 1st, stick there. If you naturally slip into 3rd, stick there. IF you naturally do 1st, but you want the 'easy' plot out of 3rd--you might be getting lazy.
Make your natural tendency work first by putting elbow grease and butt in chair time. After that is supremely comfortable, shift to the other. That shift might take several years.
As to 2nd? Short story maybe, but it only works for me when I want the character or the story to be insanely irritating.
Some people think First is too easy but I don't think so...with everything it has it's strengths and weaknesses. And at times it can be easy to slip into the other by accident especially if you take time off from working on a story-novel. I have dome that recently. If it was at the beginning, like my only 3D person limited UF, it could be a good idea to go on with it but if you do it in the middle you really need to make up your mind. I changed my change back to First.
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Some people think First is too easy but I don't think so...with everything it has it's strengths and weaknesses.
I used to think first person is easy, until I began writing fiction in the first person. It can be difficult for me, as the author, to know everything about every character, and situation, yet limit my writing to only what the POV character knows and experiences. Yet, still keep the story interesting, and dynamic.
There is value to, and difficulty involved with, every narrative perspective.
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I like both, fwiw but I tend to read 1st POV faster than 3rd. The reason is simple, with 1st POV there is always only a single story line being developed, so its easier to get fully absorbed into the story. In 3rd POV there are usually shifts in the story that jump from following one character to another. Those jumps are an opportunity to put the book down, and so its less likely I will feel that compulsion to turn just one more page, and keep going through the night. But 1st POV carries its own restrictions along the same lines; it becomes hard to present any information to the reader without letting the narrating character know. So 1st POV is ore immersive, but more restricted; 3rd POV gives you a broader, but slightly more distanced perspective.
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Sometimes it indicates that you are following a specific character or group of characters. CA is Limited 3rd POV as far as I can tell. It is written in the 3rd POV voice, but is told from a short list of character perspectives, so that the reader only knows what those characters do, rather than the more universal perspective of Omniscient
That's a good point...reading faster in first person POV. That's what happened when I started reading DF. Couldn't put the darn books down - and I don't think that's ever happened to me before! Now I understand why - and it makes a lot of sense. But my longest story, to-date, over 160,000 words and counting, needed to be third person as I wanted to see the POV from several of the characters, and first person would have been too limiting, though I have sprinkled in some first person POV elements, not even realizing that's what I did. I guess I just write the way I want to and the heck with form. LOL
My understanding is that third person omniscient is a narrator that literally knows everything about the novel's world (past, present, and future), plot(s), as well as each character's inner thoughts and motivations. Every single thing. As opposed to third person limited, where the narrator of a novel has some sort of limit to their knowledge put in place by the author. A third person limited narrator might not know, or have access to, anymore details than the main character.
edited: to change "may" to "might." Why? *sigh* Because my inner editor keeps bugging me ...
Ok, I get it. Thanks. Not sure I'd ever have reason to use third person omniscient, but you never know. And my inner editor is a real stinker. She never seems to give up and is constantly trying to get me to change things. I have to slap her hand sometimes and tell her to go away. :P
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i have dicided i hate writing in third person
just thought i would say that
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Yay CWG! You've figured out what works best for you. :D
I think I'll still go with both, depending on the story. But I won't get any of my stories finished if I'm spending my time here and re-reading DF. I want more days, more hours in the week - and no disruptions! LOL In another universe, that might happen...
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lol yes i have figered out that i hate with a pation writing in third person so shall stop
interuptions RL is good at that
i am also wvery good at getting destracted witch is shown by the fact i have yet to write anything in nearly three days
stupid life getting in the way
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RL is such a nuisance, isn't it? I've always said my perfect day would be just me, coffee in my new Dresden mug, writing, and the rest of the world on pause. A dream never to see the light of day, but it's a nice thought.
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that would be a brilent day i agree though i would swap the coffee for hot chocolate my self
and would go ridding in the afternoon but that is just me
with my dog in my room to keep me getting destracted by snacks ;D
(i have a border collie she is rely good at this)
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Hot chocolate is yummy good, too. And snacks. Gosh, I forgot about snacks!
Having an animal around is always a comfort, but sometimes my one cat, Muffy (I have two), insists on sleeping on my lap while I'm hunched over the computer keyboard, therefore I have to stretch over her to type. Argh. It gets uncomfortable. But I don't have the heart to make her move. (Pets do rule the household!) ;)
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well lucky my collie is too big to get on my desk and do that
she often lies on the floor at my feet and shears my snacks
and if i am needing some insperation taking a brake from the lap top and walking her normaly dose the trick ;D
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Yay CWG! You've figured out what works best for you. :D
I think I'll still go with both, depending on the story. But I won't get any of my stories finished if I'm spending my time here and re-reading DF. I want more days, more hours in the week - and no disruptions! LOL In another universe, that might happen...
Too many books not enough sunlight.
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Hot chocolate is yummy good, too. And snacks. Gosh, I forgot about snacks!
Having an animal around is always a comfort, but sometimes my one cat, Muffy (I have two), insists on sleeping on my lap while I'm hunched over the computer keyboard, therefore I have to stretch over her to type. Argh. It gets uncomfortable. But I don't have the heart to make her move. (Pets do rule the household!) ;)
My wife has that problem with our cat, even though she sells crafts online not writing...actually it's worst. Our cat doesn't sleep, she wants to be petted so my wife has to type one handed.
Well, hopefully-prayerfully that will happen again. Our cat made a jail break on the way to the vet. With a cry of "You'll never take my alive copper" She clawed her way out of a transport box and escaped into the bushes.
What is Dresden's phone number?
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My wife has that problem with our cat, even though she sells crafts online not writing...actually it's worst. Our cat doesn't sleep, she wants to be petted so my wife has to type one handed.
Well, hopefully-prayerfully that will happen again. Our cat made a jail break on the way to the vet. With a cry of "You'll never take my alive copper" She clawed her way out of a transport box and escaped into the bushes.
What is Dresden's phone number?
Oh, goodness...your cat escaped? Awww. I hope he/she comes back! Sometimes they just want to get a taste of freedom and then decide it's a bit scary in the big outdoors. I've had that happen a few times. I'll cross my fingers and pray that your cat returns.
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oh sorry about your cat but mine has done that a few times they nomaly come back when they get hungary or sceared by something
i hope it returns soon
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We are not that far from the vet she should be able to find her way home but we are still looking, put up posters today.
BTW when I said that She shouted "You won't take me alive copper," I meant she let out an angry howl just before she pushed her way out of the carrier. So loosely translated her howl could have meant that.
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We are not that far from the vet she should be able to find her way home but we are still looking, put up posters today.
BTW when I said that She shouted "You won't take me alive copper," I meant she let out an angry howl just before she pushed her way out of the carrier. So loosely translated her howl could have meant that.
i hope you find her soon safe and sound
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i hope you find her soon safe and sound
Thanks,
we put up posters in the area logic says she would be in. But cats aren't always logical.
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oh no they are not
dogs are not ehther when one of mine got lost a few days ago
he is home now
he ended up 60 miles from home
in three days he got 60 miles almost all on foot
how do not ask me
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I'm having fun with my current effort, it's in first person and I'm not having too much trouble compartentalizing my knowledge from the character's. The biggest thing is avoiding Infodumps, or at least keeping them toned down when they are absolutely necessary. I realize that as the work progresses, I can pluck some of the info out of the dump and salt it into another section where it's needed, thus thinning the original dump... but it still bugs me.
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I like Third Person and First Person about the same. As long as it isn't in present tense! That gets on my nerves. It's very distracting.
I write in Close-Third Person. Which basically means that from scene to scene, it is in a single character's point of view. And nothing can be written into the scene that the POV character does not know.
First Person can be deceptively easy. But a lot of writers who write in first person just know how to write in one character's voice (which is really their own voice). If the voice is interesting, and there's only one POV that the author ever writes, they can get away with it. But if they write multiple books with new protagonists that always sound the same, it can get repetitive.
I'm not clear on what third person omniscient is. How is it different from plain ole third person?
A lot of people who don't know anything about writing fall into a sloppy sort of Third Person Omnicient. There are no limitations in Omnicient. The author can be inserting observations in one paragraph that only they would know, and in the next paragraph be inserting thoughts of character A, and then in the same paragraph thoughts of character B. The fact that you have no limitations can make it challenging to write Omnicient in a good way. When done right, Omnicient POV can have have interesting comedic moments with the author narrating their ironic take on their characters (Like with JK Rowling and Georgette Heyer). A lot of fantasy authors, in my opinion, do Omnicient poorly. They use that writing style so that they can ocasionally dedicate a couple pages to information dumping about their fantasy world without worrying if this info actually would be something one of their characters would know, care, or think about.
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To my mind the real joy of writing in first is when the POV character is totally and utterly wrong and does not know it but you want it to come across to the reader anyway, which is an extremely fun challenge to work with; an awful lot of people seem to take first-person narrators as both inherently sympathetic and inherently reliable, and like any other reader assumption that gives you something to work in contrast to. The Thing I Want to Work On is in one first-person POV, and I am enjoying it immensely. (The Thing I Should Be Working On is in two third-person POVs and I am finding that a bit more of a grind as a format.)
The thing about third-person omni is that the narrative voice becomes itself a character. This can be really effective, as in Alexandre Dumas and his modern avatar Paarfi of Roundwood - I incline to primarily blame Dickens for breaking third-omni as commonly used in English, and inspiring legions of sloppy multiple-third novels with hopping from head to head whenever the author feels like and no surrounding frame structure or actual omni voice. I have only one, way back-burnered project with an explicit omni narrator, and that voice is really something of a jerk, and difficult as heck to make work.
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To my mind the real joy of writing in first is when the POV character is totally and utterly wrong and does not know it but you want it to come across to the reader anyway, which is an extremely fun challenge to work with; an awful lot of people seem to take first-person narrators as both inherently sympathetic and inherently reliable, and like any other reader assumption that gives you something to work in contrast to. The Thing I Want to Work On is in one first-person POV, and I am enjoying it immensely. (The Thing I Should Be Working On is in two third-person POVs and I am finding that a bit more of a grind as a format.)
The thing about third-person omni is that the narrative voice becomes itself a character. This can be really effective, as in Alexandre Dumas and his modern avatar Paarfi of Roundwood - I incline to primarily blame Dickens for breaking third-omni as commonly used in English, and inspiring legions of sloppy multiple-third novels with hopping from head to head whenever the author feels like and no surrounding frame structure or actual omni voice. I have only one, way back-burnered project with an explicit omni narrator, and that voice is really something of a jerk, and difficult as heck to make work.
That sparks an interesting notion: imagine a story that is both. Make the narrator full character that happens to be an Omniscient being, but otherwise make it 1st POV. Like a story told from the POV of Death himself, who is just idly watching the story unfold as while waiting for "his moment"
Its probably been done somewhere, but it could still be a fun read
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To my mind the real joy of writing in first is when the POV character is totally and utterly wrong and does not know it but you want it to come across to the reader anyway, which is an extremely fun challenge to work with; an awful lot of people seem to take first-person narrators as both inherently sympathetic and inherently reliable, and like any other reader assumption that gives you something to work in contrast to. The Thing I Want to Work On is in one first-person POV, and I am enjoying it immensely. (The Thing I Should Be Working On is in two third-person POVs and I am finding that a bit more of a grind as a format.)
Whenever you're reading or writing something in the POV of a character (third or first), they should be an unreliable narrator. It can be a very good tactic in causing the readers to make a flawed assumption, which can then cause the readers to be surprised when a plot twist comes later on. You can foreshadow the plot twist, but have the readers miss it because the POV character did.