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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Quantus on May 22, 2012, 03:15:43 PM
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So this is something Ive been kicking around for a while. I want to make a Monarchy that works for the long haul, one that has checks and balances to avoid the typical pitfalls. I like the monarchy idea in the sense that a single person who is trained and molded from birth to be a Leader could potentially be far better prepared to actually Lead a nation than any ladder climbing elected official you could find.
I have a basic Medieval fantasy setting, high magic (ie. its common enough to be used in everyday life, with the occasional significant Artifact). The MC is a crown prince, heir to the throne, and is about to set out on a traditional Pilgrimage to gain training in each of the Six and One Circles (6 schools of magic, plus those that master the Body ie. martial arts). This is supposed to determine which school he is most suited to learn, as well as theoretically grant him insight and exposure into the People he will one day rule. Political power is feudal, built around a few Major Houses and many more Minor Houses. Each school is organized into its own Guild (with its own internal structure) but each has single Leader that is considered the most powerful of that school.
So how would you balance a Monarchy to prevent future corruption?
I figure the three archetypal pitfalls are:
a) a Tyrant King, one who loves the Power for Itself and ignores the Responsibility
b) a Puppet King, one who bows to political pressures, or parrots the orders of another interest rather than Leading in his own right
c) a Reluctant King, one who has been made king against his will
Some thoughts Ive had so far:
A Constitution: a charter document/treaty that sets up the framework. This is what establishes the Rule of Law in the land. But there needs to be some binding reason for all the houses to play by the rules. Expecting the houses to keep each other in line only lasts until enough band together against it. A past Tragedy only lasts as long as the memory is fresh. A Common Enemy could work.
Trials: The idea is that Heredity is not enough, a future King must prove himself powerful enough in one of the Circles to defend the Land. I figure each of the Major Houses will be able to put forward a Candidate as well as the Prime candidate chosen by the Current King. The King's Heir would get priority, and the others would be considered if he fails the Trials. Or maybe he has to defeat them all as one of the trials, to prove directly that they are the most powerful?
Training: I had thought of adding a Secret Society whose duty is to train and prepare the candidates, but they would need to be totally devoted to their Duty of preparing Leaders. They'd need to have absolutely no personal ambitions, or be innately incapable of taking power. Otherwise they could eventually grasp for power themselves and become the worst Puppet-masters. Perhaps an intelligent artifact or spirit guide of some kind?
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Shucks, where to start? This is the sort of thread that could descend (or ascend if you like that sort of thing) into long arguments about history and theory of government.
1. Monarchys don't have a good track record of governance. Most of the decent places to live now a days are reasonably functional republics of some type. It seems kings need some check on their power, which tends to become a parliament of some kind.
2. A written constitution is one way to go, but you have to have people that really believe in it eg a Washington that steps down after two terms. Jefferson, Adams etc had a sense they were making history ("OMG, we're doing all the stuff Locke, Rousseau, Hutcheson talked about. We better not frell it up!") I think other countries tried a written constitution after the founding of the USA and it didn't work out - presidents seized power for life, got deposed, another president seized power for life etc.
3. Another way might be a sort of meandering system of customs, each sort of created in response to a previous crisis. The tryanny of King John caused the Magna Carta. The 100 years war and constant heavy taxation gave parliament the right to tax. (not sure exactly about that one). and so on. And sometimes its what people thought about the custom that mattered, eg its the legal interpretion of the Magna Carta that matters, not actually whats written in the document.
So I guess, in terms of believability:
1. this is our system and we are committed to making it work.
2. revered heroes that lived by the system.
3. it may not be perfect, but its better than civil war.
4. despots don't stay benevolent, so system to block the king's power, eg parliament or council of Houses, or something.
Trainers - maybe not a secret society, but members of a minority with little power, eg Buddhists in India or Jews in medieval europe. Maybe the member are eunuchs or they live by rigid ascetism - no meat, no sex, no drinking, etc.
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Shucks, where to start? This is the sort of thread that could descend (or ascend if you like that sort of thing) into long arguments about history and theory of government.
1. Monarchys don't have a good track record of governance. Most of the decent places to live now a days are reasonably functional republics of some type. It seems kings need some check on their power, which tends to become a parliament of some kind.
2. A written constitution is one way to go, but you have to have people that really believe in it eg a Washington that steps down after two terms. Jefferson, Adams etc had a sense they were making history ("OMG, we're doing all the stuff Locke, Rousseau, Hutcheson talked about. We better not frell it up!") I think other countries tried a written constitution after the founding of the USA and it didn't work out - presidents seized power for life, got deposed, another president seized power for life etc.
3. Another way might be a sort of meandering system of customs, each sort of created in response to a previous crisis. The tryanny of King John caused the Magna Carta. The 100 years war and constant heavy taxation gave parliament the right to tax. (not sure exactly about that one). and so on. And sometimes its what people thought about the custom that mattered, eg its the legal interpretion of the Magna Carta that matters, not actually whats written in the document.
Precisely. This is why I want to see if I can design one from the ground up (rather than something the evolved by trial and error, like most historical examples) that can work and last and not end in tragedy. I am of course taking full liberties to arrange the circumstances (resources, enemies, magic, etc) however I need to make that work, so it may not be all that applicable to a real-life situation. If I need a horde of monsters on a border, magic artifacts of great power, or killer silver spores falling from outer space (pern reference), I am comfortable with that. If the King is extra powerful because the Throne is an artifact that gives him control of the magical Defense Grid, maybe thats a reason why Parlament never marginalizes the position
So I guess, in terms of believability:
1. this is our system and we are committed to making it work.
2. revered heroes that lived by the system.
3. it may not be perfect, but its better than civil war.
4. despots don't stay benevolent, so system to block the king's power, eg parliament or council of Houses, or something.
#3 could probably be said for any government. Though I am thinking it makes a stronger Society if the fear is of Invasion instead of Civil War. Societies are almost always held together by some common Fear, and a threat from Outside tends to bring people together more than "Threat from Within" which keeps them suspicious and divisive.
I had counted on at least two Council's being major political powers: a 7 member council comprised of the leaders of each Guild, and one for the Houses (which will have some mix of the handlful of Major Houses and the dozens of Minor houses, possibly in a Council/Senior Council format). Both could serve as anchors to balance the power of the Throne, but what would the Purviews of power be, and where would the checks and balances come into play?
Councils are not any less prone to abuses and corruption than a single point of Power, they are just larger and more difficult to move. Any change to the Status Quo is guaranteed to be met with opposition, and thus be faced with deliberation. This naturally slow process makes it harder for any individual's extremism to gain traction, and corruption takes longer to set in. But that is a Peacetime system, in wartime it is crippling. In wartime the singularity of Authority and Command is key to rapid response and clarity of purpose that is vital to a war effort. The secret is finding a balance, and in making sure everyone agrees on the definitions of Peacetime and Wartime and who gets to decide that. Otherwise you may get a Caesar that refuses to give up his Wartime Powers.
The Succession is going to be central to the story, so those details are of particular interest, but the system as a whole needs to be there.
Trainers - maybe not a secret society, but members of a minority with little power, eg Buddhists in India or Jews in medieval europe. Maybe the member are eunuchs or they live by rigid ascetism - no meat, no sex, no drinking, etc.
A social minority would be the most likely to produce a dissident that would seek to corrupt the system for his own (or the minority's own) interests. If the trainer is a publically known group, it should be one with enough standing to not /want/ to be the king or control the king; they have to love the system enough to want to reserve it. A secret society has the benefit of a more selective admissions system, that could potentially weed out those without sufficient Idealism for the task.
I had considered a monastic order, but even if they are maimed or otherwise rendered oviously incapable of sitting on the throne, they could easily sway to wanting to puppet the king. Again it seems to come to motivations; the teacher needs to be somebody with the wisdom and perspective to raise the potential candidates to use Power respionsibly, without ever being tempted to take that power for themselves.
An intelligent magic Item could do it, maybe a sealed soul of a Founding Father. Or maybe some non-human spririt that racially has a usefully extreme psychology.
I dont mind resorting to Magic where lasting Neutrality in needed, but Id like to minimize it where possible.
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One other issue is that the bloodlines of monarchies tend to become inbred after a while, with the same few families all marrying each other. Maybe there could be a clause or requirement that allows for commoners to marry into the royal family, just to mix things up (and to add some perspective with an outlook that isn't insulated by wealth and power.)
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One other issue is that the bloodlines of monarchies tend to become inbred after a while, with the same few families all marrying each other. Maybe there could be a clause or requirement that allows for commoners to marry into the royal family, just to mix things up (and to add some perspective with an outlook that isn't insulated by wealth and power.)
A good point, but in this particular world I dont think that inbreeding will be big a problem. Family is important, but less because of the Bloodline than because of the organization. Magic is the standard of Power, in the same way that Power was about martial prowess back in the day, and later became about economic power. But power is not strictly passed by heredity, in strength or school. So a weak Seer could give birth to a strong Elementalist, and vice verse. Thats the idea behind the drive to prove yourself worthy in a Trial. The value of a Family is less that you inherited anything specific from you parents blood, but that you were raised in the traditions of leadership and government. Its Nurture vs Nature. So I figure adoption would be a common practice whenever a promising youth was found. Marriage would very widely by House, as some would be open to letting their scion marry for love, while others might pressure them for a political marriage.
There will be a group that is universally pitied and/or looked down upon: The Lost Stars (also called the Nameless, derogatory). This will take a little explanation. The Theology of the world is based on Astrology, which is complicated by the mass of debris ripped from the two moons each time they get too close. The sky is filled with a massive layer of tiny asteroids that bounce around, skipping off the atmosphere or burning out in it. Each person is believed to have a personal star somewhere in the sky, that mirrors/predicts/determines that persons fated path in life. The Moons are the Twin Gods, the Standing Stars (what we think of as stars) govern the physical laws of the universe, while the Sun is thought to be a hole in the universe, from which all things spring and which all things will eventually return. The Sun is also viewed as being under the world, which everything else will eventually fall into. I havent decided on the role of the planets, but Im thinking they will be less important Gods, ones that are farther away because they dont care about mankind as directly. Anyway, each person has a star somewhere up there (unknown to them unless they have a rare Seer's gift) that they were supposedly Born under. One of the big reasons family is important is because they are present at the moment of you birth, and so only they can know what you were born under and tell you, in the form of a SkyName. Those raised as orphans would not have anyone to tell them their SkyName, which is a fundamental aspect of their Identity. As I write this I have realized two things: The parents would probably tatoo the name on the child as soon as possible, and being born during the Day would probably be considered bad luck, so methods to control the timing of a birth would probably exist, though they may be derided as interfering with Fate, and so be a black-market thing.
Breaking out of the insulation of Wealth and Power is a central theme. The MC is the Crowned Prince about to go out into the land for training. The Law says he must travel to learn Magic and the ways of the people. For his (relatively benevolent) family this means traveling anonymously to experience the world as commoner would. Other Families have different interpretations, so another might make a more courtly tour of it, with more pomp and ceremony and less attempted understanding. Traveling with the MC will be a common born Martial Artist mentor figure that was bodyguard and confidant of his father, and a Nameless Elementalist that will be companion and sidekick.
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I had counted on at least two Council's being major political powers: a 7 member council comprised of the leaders of each Guild, and one for the Houses (which will have some mix of the handlful of Major Houses and the dozens of Minor houses, possibly in a Council/Senior Council format). Both could serve as anchors to balance the power of the Throne, but what would the Purviews of power be, and where would the checks and balances come into play?
I don't know. The US constitution has a number of checks and balances:
1. Taxation originates in the House, which is popularly elected. (Senators were not originally popularly elected.) But the Reps only serve for 2 years, so if they pass a lot of unpopular taxes, they can get kicked out.
2. The Senate must confirm government appointees.
3. The Supreme Court can invalidate laws (but look out for Andrew Jacksons!), and is appointed for life. But the constitution can be amended.
So powers to be balanced:
1. taxation
2. shape government by appointing bureaucrats
3. deny such appointments
4. declare laws unconstitutional
5. amend the constitution
6. need a Bill of Rights
7. legislate laws.
8. popular election vs election by oligarchy
9. term limits is probably not very medievalesque
10. system of referendums for the commoners to redress greivances
11. free press
I'm sure I missed a bunch.
Maybe introduce a european style parliament - where the majority in parliament selects a prime minister and various factions have to bind together to get a majority. I don't know the advantages and disadvantages of euro style parliament.
I agree that fear of invasion will bind a country together. But I wonder if you overstate the need to bind together from fear of invasion. I don't think the USA much feared invasion after 1825 or so. (We were too big and Europe was still recovering from the Napoleonic wars, IIRC) Tho we did have ideas like manifest destiny to bind us together. (And slavery to tear us apart). Perhaps nationalism would do the trick?
Poland of the late 17th and the 18th C comes to mind. Prussia and Russia started working on the magnate's sympathies, offering titles and other inducements to gum up the works of the Polish Seym (congress). They kept the king too weak for too long and when a strong king finally started making progress at reform, Poland's neighbors were strong enough to just partition the kingdom. Note the fear of foreign invasion was not enough to keep the magnates aligned with Poland's interests, since foreign lobbyists convinced the magnates otherwise.
I think you just need to make a guess and then submit it to your writing group or your "D&D group". You might get more pointed criticism from your "D&D group" - my writing group is great at grammar, POV shifts, changes in character, etc but a little too polite about politics.
BTW can a crown princess become the sovereign or is it limited to males?
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Very good points. The structure is still essentially a feudal society, so its a very vertical hierarchy. Within a Family's territory their Sovereignty would generally rule, and could only be overridden by somebody higher up the ladder. So things like taxation, legislative powers, functionary appointments, etc would be handled by the local Noble, so long as it doesn't contradict anything declared by a higher up (as each essentially rules in the name of their boss). And only a superior could countermand them, though such Interventions are generally avoided, as there is a rebuke in it, stated or implied. If you need to go past that, you need to get a sponsor that is higher up the Food Chain, but that would be like somebody in France getting England to complain to the UN; Most would rather not get in the middle of internal disputes, and doing so is generally frowned upon. i figure it would have to be criminal charges (Violations of Charter Law, ie human rights, treason, etc) or something equally important. Each Major house will have widely varied cultures and styles, as much as any foreign country (single language though)
Offhand, the rough hierarchy would be:
1. Serf - houseless peasant
2. Family - a traditional extended family, usually in a particular business (Tailor, shipwrights, farmer, etc)
3. Merchant Family - Wealthy, Landowners. The banks/Moneylenders/corporations (though probably not literally). Basically a collection of the most influential Families of the City.
4. Noble House - Local Government
5. Major House - State Government, Nobles are all bound to a Major House (geographically contiguous territory), and a Capital City where they also responsible for the Local government
6. Throne - Responsible for a central Capital city, as well as some territory of Nobles equal to a Major House (thus whichever Major House sits on the throne controls something like double the territory of the others... perhaps its geographically limited, like a large Island capital and several smaller island Nobles)
NOTE - there may be more layers between the city level Noble and the Major house, but it would follow the same pattern, just increasingly larger territories.
There will be a Charter that includes the Rights and Responsibilities of each level, including basic human rights, as well as outlining the various Trials. A mechanism to challenge the local boss would be needed, so maybe everyone is allowed to go one step above their boss. How about: Anyone has the right to petition the local Noble House for an Intervention, though a serf would have difficulty being taken seriously without a family to sponsor them. A powerful Merchant Family could go past the Noble to its Major House overseer if the matter is dire enough that it would impact the liege. A Noble House Could petition the King to intercede against their Major House bosses. The Major Houses would have a Council of their leaders, as a balance to the King who has no Boss. I dont think they should be able to override him on just anything, or else his power would quickly erode. I figure the most they can do by Law is some sort of Impeachment, a vote of No Confidence for extreme circumstances, which would require an equally extreme majority (maybe even a vote of the Lesser Nobles as well, or support from the Guild Council or something. Or maybe there is no Law based recourse to depose a bad king, leaving assassinations or some secret Failsafe (magic, secret society, etc). That being said I would see the average King delegating a number of things to the council, or seeking their advice as advisers, but the at the end of the day the King's Word is Law.
Although I am considering having a Trial by Combat option, whereas you can challenge somebody for their position by proving that you are better fit to defend the Land. It wouldn't be the only trial for leadership, but it would be one of them required for the throne. A king would have to be able to defeat a Master of one of the Circles (ie a Guild leader or equivalent) or maybe all of them, to prove himself the most powerful in the land. Hmmm, one trial per Circle would make sense. At least one but not all would be combat, though all would likely be potentially deadly; you cant hold back when choosing a King. For lesser positions I figure theyd need to pass a certain number of trials (more trials for higher levels) to the satisfaction of a certain number of their future contemporaries, or a smaller number of a level up, and so on.
Actually changing the Charter would be a very rare and difficult thing, as much of the framework will be symbolically tied up with the Astral Theology. It will come up sometime in Book Three, but Im thinking that will be something unprecedented in their (current) society. A big part of the MC is that he has magic that does not conform to any of the existing Schools, and breaks many of the established "rules" of magic. His birth was also during a particularly rare astronomical event, so he was raised under a certain bit of stigma, expectations of Greatness beyond even the Throne, and so facing jealousies and such since birth, and perhaps even some radicals thinking he will destroy teh world or some such catastrophe.
I agree that fear of invasion will bind a country together. But I wonder if you overstate the need to bind together from fear of invasion. I don't think the USA much feared invasion after 1825 or so. (We were too big and Europe was still recovering from the Napoleonic wars, IIRC) Tho we did have ideas like manifest destiny to bind us together. (And slavery to tear us apart). Perhaps nationalism would do the trick?
Poland of the late 17th and the 18th C comes to mind. Prussia and Russia started working on the magnate's sympathies, offering titles and other inducements to gum up the works of the Polish Seym (congress). They kept the king too weak for too long and when a strong king finally started making progress at reform, Poland's neighbors were strong enough to just partition the kingdom. Note the fear of foreign invasion was not enough to keep the magnates aligned with Poland's interests, since foreign lobbyists convinced the magnates otherwise.
True we didnt have a heavy outside enemy, and so we started drawing lines in our own country and ended up in full civil war within a few decades. But you raise a good point. An outside force that is an active political force will be more divisive than not. The Outside Enemy really needs to be a Boogie Man, something that nobody would work with, everybody fears sufficiently, and ideally nobody identifies with. A Language barrier would need to be a minimum, but im leaning towards something more monstrous and/or less accessible. An evil from the past (monster horde, barbarians, aliens!), rather than a neighbor. Id rather keep the politics internal, with the different Major Houses playing the role of Neighboring governments and foreign cultures. The Enemy would need to be something bigger, nastier, something no sane person would work with, if they could communicate at all. And something that would warrant the upheaval that the Prince is basically prophesied to bring about.
BTW can a crown princess become the sovereign or is it limited to males?
Magic won't favor either gender over the other, so I dont see the main social order doing so, certainly not for choosing the King, which would be outlined by the Charter. Any candidate put forward that can pass the Trials would have proven themselves worthy, regardless of gender. In general the line of Succession would go by birth, then to adopted Family (unless politics push otherwise), which would be given an ill-defined rank of Cousin in the genealogy. But that is just the Order by which they can attempt the Trials. If the person in front of the line Fails (which may or may not be lethal) then the next one in line is free to step up and try.
I could see there being House the favored one gender over the other. Actually I like that idea, a Matriarchal House that tracks bloodlines through the mother's side only, and only ever puts forward Female Candidates. They'd be the more oppressive, narrow minded house. Thats good. I needed an antagonistic contemporary from another house, but the male was becoming too Draco Malfoy for my tastes. A more Conniving Bitch character would fit better.
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I read a science fiction short story many years ago that seems to have some similarity to yours. Unfortunately I don't remember the name or the author. The main character in the story is a bodyguard or retainer of sorts that is a combat veteran and whose family (IIRC) had served the royal family for many years. He and the King's eldest child, in disguise, begin traveling together as a final test to see if the Prince is fit. When the Prince proves to be a bully and a coward, he is killed by the retainer. When he meets with the King in the end, he tells the King that his child was a coward and a bully but tells him not to worry because, "You have other sons."
This type of scenario could make it even more important for the Royal Family to be fertile so that they could have backups if one or more of their children are found unfit. I like your idea of trials where the Ruler's family is first choice but not the only choice. You could several Noble families but only one Royal family with a switch happening every so often in which family is Royal. A combination of tradition and the strength of the other potentially Royal families could keep one family from permanently seizing all power and becoming tyrants. A rule declaring that if any member of one family married into another they would be permanently banned from the trials could help keep the families from banding together. I like the idea of a constitutional monarchy and I like the idea of the Nobility being forced to choose a spouse from the nonNoble families. I also see great opportunities for abuse of the system.
Ultimately human beings are not perfect and thus no system of government will be perfect. Finding one that is flexible enough to survive in spite of its imperfections is a challenge.
edit.
I thought I should add that when I talked about a switch in which family is Royal I meant a switch that happened as a result of the trials not because of timing or any other reason. There could also be one or two open slots in the trials for commoners to compete with none having ever won. ( It, of course, leaves the future wide open if you ever want to shake things up.)
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Very good points. The structure is still essentially a feudal society, so its a very vertical hierarchy. Within a Family's territory their Sovereignty would generally rule, and could only be overridden by somebody higher up the ladder. So things like taxation, legislative powers, functionary appointments, etc would be handled by the local Noble, so long as it doesn't contradict anything declared by a higher up (as each essentially rules in the name of their boss). And only a superior could countermand them, though such Interventions are generally avoided, as there is a rebuke in it, stated or implied. If you need to go past that, you need to get a sponsor that is higher up the Food Chain, but that would be like somebody in France getting England to complain to the UN; Most would rather not get in the middle of internal disputes, and doing so is generally frowned upon. i figure it would have to be criminal charges (Violations of Charter Law, ie human rights, treason, etc) or something equally important. Each Major house will have widely varied cultures and styles, as much as any foreign country (single language though)
Offhand, the rough hierarchy would be:
1. Serf - houseless peasant
2. Family - a traditional extended family, usually in a particular business (Tailor, shipwrights, farmer, etc)
3. Merchant Family - Wealthy, Landowners. The banks/Moneylenders/corporations (though probably not literally). Basically a collection of the most influential Families of the City.
4. Noble House - Local Government
5. Major House - State Government, Nobles are all bound to a Major House (geographically contiguous territory), and a Capital City where they also responsible for the Local government
6. Throne - Responsible for a central Capital city, as well as some territory of Nobles equal to a Major House (thus whichever Major House sits on the throne controls something like double the territory of the others... perhaps its geographically limited, like a large Island capital and several smaller island Nobles)
NOTE - there may be more layers between the city level Noble and the Major house, but it would follow the same pattern, just increasingly larger territories.
There will be a Charter that includes the Rights and Responsibilities of each level, including basic human rights, as well as outlining the various Trials. A mechanism to challenge the local boss would be needed, so maybe everyone is allowed to go one step above their boss. How about: Anyone has the right to petition the local Noble House for an Intervention, though a serf would have difficulty being taken seriously without a family to sponsor them. A powerful Merchant Family could go past the Noble to its Major House overseer if the matter is dire enough that it would impact the liege. A Noble House Could petition the King to intercede against their Major House bosses. The Major Houses would have a Council of their leaders, as a balance to the King who has no Boss. I dont think they should be able to override him on just anything, or else his power would quickly erode. I figure the most they can do by Law is some sort of Impeachment, a vote of No Confidence for extreme circumstances, which would require an equally extreme majority (maybe even a vote of the Lesser Nobles as well, or support from the Guild Council or something. Or maybe there is no Law based recourse to depose a bad king, leaving assassinations or some secret Failsafe (magic, secret society, etc). That being said I would see the average King delegating a number of things to the council, or seeking their advice as advisers, but the at the end of the day the King's Word is Law.
Although I am considering having a Trial by Combat option, whereas you can challenge somebody for their position by proving that you are better fit to defend the Land. It wouldn't be the only trial for leadership, but it would be one of them required for the throne. A king would have to be able to defeat a Master of one of the Circles (ie a Guild leader or equivalent) or maybe all of them, to prove himself the most powerful in the land. Hmmm, one trial per Circle would make sense. At least one but not all would be combat, though all would likely be potentially deadly; you cant hold back when choosing a King. For lesser positions I figure theyd need to pass a certain number of trials (more trials for higher levels) to the satisfaction of a certain number of their future contemporaries, or a smaller number of a level up, and so on.
Actually changing the Charter would be a very rare and difficult thing, as much of the framework will be symbolically tied up with the Astral Theology. It will come up sometime in Book Three, but Im thinking that will be something unprecedented in their (current) society. A big part of the MC is that he has magic that does not conform to any of the existing Schools, and breaks many of the established "rules" of magic. His birth was also during a particularly rare astronomical event, so he was raised under a certain bit of stigma, expectations of Greatness beyond even the Throne, and so facing jealousies and such since birth, and perhaps even some radicals thinking he will destroy teh world or some such catastrophe.
True we didnt have a heavy outside enemy, and so we started drawing lines in our own country and ended up in full civil war within a few decades. But you raise a good point. An outside force that is an active political force will be more divisive than not. The Outside Enemy really needs to be a Boogie Man, something that nobody would work with, everybody fears sufficiently, and ideally nobody identifies with. A Language barrier would need to be a minimum, but im leaning towards something more monstrous and/or less accessible. An evil from the past (monster horde, barbarians, aliens!), rather than a neighbor. Id rather keep the politics internal, with the different Major Houses playing the role of Neighboring governments and foreign cultures. The Enemy would need to be something bigger, nastier, something no sane person would work with, if they could communicate at all. And something that would warrant the upheaval that the Prince is basically prophesied to bring about.
Magic won't favor either gender over the other, so I dont see the main social order doing so, certainly not for choosing the King, which would be outlined by the Charter. Any candidate put forward that can pass the Trials would have proven themselves worthy, regardless of gender. In general the line of Succession would go by birth, then to adopted Family (unless politics push otherwise), which would be given an ill-defined rank of Cousin in the genealogy. But that is just the Order by which they can attempt the Trials. If the person in front of the line Fails (which may or may not be lethal) then the next one in line is free to step up and try.
I could see there being House the favored one gender over the other. Actually I like that idea, a Matriarchal House that tracks bloodlines through the mother's side only, and only ever puts forward Female Candidates. They'd be the more oppressive, narrow minded house. Thats good. I needed an antagonistic contemporary from another house, but the male was becoming too Draco Malfoy for my tastes. A more Conniving Bitch character would fit better.
As for single gender houses... If you could tie the house to some magic that heavily favors females over males. Say... fertility/child magic. A midwife equivalent. And tie it in with psychology. I.e. most men aren't as good with kids as most women. Then take it to the extreme where the women lock up the system and only put forth female candidates. The House of the 2nd Moon or some such.
Then have the alternate. The House of the Dragon. Only put forth male candidates because for whatever reason... combat magic? they are heavily male favored. They could essentially be opposites. Like some sort of 'The only thing large enough to block the all seeing light of the Moon is the Shadow of the Dragon Wings in the sky'. Play it all off in your astrological chart.
The Moon House gets its power from the Moon and are adept at harnessing it and directing it. Their power is external source with native internal talent at harnessing outside forces. It wanes and waxes with the cycles of the moon and the astrophysics. (Thus you could potentially have a male who could harness these powers but the house wouln't provide training or support, unless their faces were rubbed in the person's talent in a public way. Then they would shirk and sabotage training and his rise.)
Dragon House gets its power from internals. Each individual gains their power from inborn talent. Maybe they harness the fires within and then unload in firey burst of destruction but it has little to do directly with astrology. The Dragon in the sky responds to their actions. Unlike the Moon House where individuals respond to the power of the Moon. Females could have dragon power. But would be avoided, discriminated against and pushed until they broke during training. Althougth theoretically they could rise to the top, same as Moon House. However with both houses a little known fact is that if you could cast magics that affect the dragon in the sky you could theoritically effect all Dragon House magicers. Same same with the Moon house. If you could effect all the moon house members you could effect the Moon in the sky and move it in orbit.
Some Ideas for a system that keeps monarchy in power and honest.
1) The first Monarch made a deal with the crying god or some major spirit or power. He 'saved' the peninsula of land the kingdom, or most of its heart land is based on, from falling into the sea. It is only the pact the Royal House made with this deity or Elemental of the Peninsula that keeps the entire kingdom from being consumed by the sea. Thus their is active need to have a King and Royal House. Without it everyone dies. This isn't some, oh well if he dies everything could potentially get better. Instead its a big oh shit moment, we need a new king pronto or we're all going to die or be displaced as beggars in foreign lands.
2) Some form of geas spell. There would be work around but basically its a public ceramony where the King after the King makes his first pact 'with the Elemental that keeps the land safe', he turns around and says unless it conflicts with his first oath, He now swears to the people to xyz. I will protect and defend you to the best of my abilities. I will place the needs of the people over my own. And so on and so forth. You don't have to actually define it in words. The effect of the oath could be shown as you write the book.
Essentially unless its in service of the first oath, if he doesn't put justice and the needs of the people first, he starts to wither away and die. Or maybe he literally can't. If he believes he is doing something wrong, he is physically compelled to fix it and change course. Ala Patricia Bray's main character who was the 3rd most powerful position in the kingdom after he took the oath.
3) For the noble houses... I think that if you set up your system of nobility so there are a series of trials. Anyone can attempt the trials. And theoretically anyone could become king or duke or archmagus. In reality only a select few are given training to become Healers or Weavers or Kings or Dragon House Wizards etc. The trials are public and by order of the King, entrance trails are public and anyone who gets into the Sqaure or Hall or wherever the trials are held (varies by house/guild) can take the tests. Set up a series of tests. 6 or 8 or 12, and it could vary by house but essentially, after you pass a certain number you are officially entered into the roles of the Noble House as a 'noble' member. There could be grades of noble membership. But essentially the noble houses would 'for the most part' train anyone in their blood lines who had the talent. Unless they showed amazing talent for powers in another major or minor house. Then there are the walk ins. The wild cards, who don't necessarily have the life time of training in Astro-Magic or Flame Power or Ice Dueling or Symbol Magic, but are perhaps savants who intuitively understand or had access to a private library or old minor member of the noble house living outside the confines of the House Proper where all the influence peddling and seat of power is found.
For a House Lord, his power resides in understanding/weilding his/her house's power better and more powerfully than any other member. Although I guess some house might elect their leader, and she/he might not necessarily be the most potent instead the most skilled or wise. While for the King, his power comes in the main from his ability to stand as pledge to the Great Elemental that keeps the Kingdom from sliding into the sea. After that his next duty is to the people, so he goes around to learn as much about each of the major players and common people as he can while he's the heir. Honestly there could be over 100 heirs running around, from 8-80 years old. Perhaps when the king dies they line up and try to plede their soul to the pact. Some fail and are never heirs again, other are driven insane. Some die from the attempt. Eventually one succeeds and becomes the King.
Since its the Great Elemental that selects the King, for some quality that is poorly understood, its hard for the Major or Minor Houses to ensure 'their' preferred candidate is selected. All they can do is train a candidate or candidates, and much like big Tobacco and the Pharmecitucal Companies, regardless of who they are primarily backing they spread the money around to all candidates viewed as having anything of a shot. So that even if secretly they are mainly behind your chief rival they still put coin in your pocket. You'll remember that when you are elected.
Maybe anyone can become an heir, they just have to make some sort of pilgrimage. Common folk know the traditional route. Maybe there are six or seven different cities and places you are supposed to visit and it gives you mystical power. In reality what you are doing is going to major nexus loci where the Elemental is manifested in the land, to attune yourself to the Being. Only those that are able to attune, knowingly or unknowingly are able to stand pledge. Maybe there is some test that can measure your attunement. Or maybe its eye color or something. Those that manage to attune to the Elemental get purple eyes with a golden swirl where the pupil used to be. What few realize is that while the major attunement nodal loci are know, there are minor loci no one but a King or well attuned Heir would even realize were present. PErhaps your hero grew up on one of these small hiden loci?
Also you could have in your history the time to 2 kings, where both were attuned to the Elemental. The Rule of the Crone, an aged lady who lasted 5 years and the age of the Fool, when a child was turned into a drooling idiot but succeeded in making the pact before he died a years later.
As for the position of Queen. Make that different from the position of King's Consort. Maybe the Queen is supposed to tune herself to the 6th Sea. So that when each king dies, and the land starts to slowly sink into the ocean, she talks with the Sea and keeps its from immediately swallowing up the kingdome. Thus giving time for the Heir to form and gather for the ceramony.
Foreign lands and sorcerers and kings would all be scheming and looking for advantage when the king of this land dies. Heck even just killing the king and slaughtering as many heirs as possible might result in the total destruction of these people, as the land was swallowed by water. Demon powers looking to corrupt and destroy. Ideas for attempts to bind the Great Elemental (most doomed to failure). A scheming royal throne that is more than it seems and has an agenda all its own, as well as an unknown quirk of being able to extend its awareness to each of the major loci along the pilgrimage, so it can monitor potential heirs.
Lots of potential ideas here.
The Deposed King
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I really dont want to make the magic itself have a gender bias, but I fully expect each Major House to have a differnt spin on each school, so the idea of opposing Houses woud work well, without the divinde having to be on a purely mystical line.
As I said earlier the magic is divided into 6 schools, the Circles of Six and One, but those are specialties within the same system more than rigid divisions. The purpose being that the MC will have a power that is far mor fundamentally different and all of the others. Ill write up more detail on them in a second post, but I want to respond to the rest of your post, and these posts are getting kinda long..
Some Ideas for a system that keeps monarchy in power and honest.
1) The first Monarch made a deal with the crying god or some major spirit or power. He 'saved' the peninsula of land the kingdom, or most of its heart land is based on, from falling into the sea. It is only the pact the Royal House made with this deity or Elemental of the Peninsula that keeps the entire kingdom from being consumed by the sea. Thus their is active need to have a King and Royal House. Without it everyone dies. This isn't some, oh well if he dies everything could potentially get better. Instead its a big oh shit moment, we need a new king pronto or we're all going to die or be displaced as beggars in foreign lands.
2) Some form of geas spell. There would be work around but basically its a public ceramony where the King after the King makes his first pact 'with the Elemental that keeps the land safe', he turns around and says unless it conflicts with his first oath, He now swears to the people to xyz. I will protect and defend you to the best of my abilities. I will place the needs of the people over my own. And so on and so forth. You don't have to actually define it in words. The effect of the oath could be shown as you write the book.
Essentially unless its in service of the first oath, if he doesn't put justice and the needs of the people first, he starts to wither away and die. Or maybe he literally can't. If he believes he is doing something wrong, he is physically compelled to fix it and change course. Ala Patricia Bray's main character who was the 3rd most powerful position in the kingdom after he took the oath.
A bargain may work, though Im not sure I want to go so far as have them Manifest (as thats the central part of the sequel trilogy in the back of my mind, centered around the next Generation. I dont want to do a Geas or mental control, because the current king (the MC's father) was a powerful Mind Mage (see next post, its scientific/procedural magic, kinda the classic Hogwarts type) who is loosing him mind Alzheimer's style, and I dont want that to have any metaphysical implications of Failure. Its more of a tragedy to see haw far he's fallen, and a motivation for the MC who realizes he will have to face the King's Trials soon whether he is ready or not.
Making the King a mystical linchpin to something would be a good way to go, as I want everyone to agree to the need of /a king/ even if they wont always agree on who it should be.
3) For the noble houses... I think that if you set up your system of nobility so there are a series of trials. Anyone can attempt the trials. And theoretically anyone could become king or duke or archmagus. In reality only a select few are given training to become Healers or Weavers or Kings or Dragon House Wizards etc. The trials are public and by order of the King, entrance trails are public and anyone who gets into the Sqaure or Hall or wherever the trials are held (varies by house/guild) can take the tests. Set up a series of tests. 6 or 8 or 12, and it could vary by house but essentially, after you pass a certain number you are officially entered into the roles of the Noble House as a 'noble' member. There could be grades of noble membership. But essentially the noble houses would 'for the most part' train anyone in their blood lines who had the talent. Unless they showed amazing talent for powers in another major or minor house. Then there are the walk ins. The wild cards, who don't necessarily have the life time of training in Astro-Magic or Flame Power or Ice Dueling or Symbol Magic, but are perhaps savants who intuitively understand or had access to a private library or old minor member of the noble house living outside the confines of the House Proper where all the influence peddling and seat of power is found.
For a House Lord, his power resides in understanding/weilding his/her house's power better and more powerfully than any other member. Although I guess some house might elect their leader, and she/he might not necessarily be the most potent instead the most skilled or wise. While for the King, his power comes in the main from his ability to stand as pledge to the Great Elemental that keeps the Kingdom from sliding into the sea. After that his next duty is to the people, so he goes around to learn as much about each of the major players and common people as he can while he's the heir. Honestly there could be over 100 heirs running around, from 8-80 years old. Perhaps when the king dies they line up and try to plede their soul to the pact. Some fail and are never heirs again, other are driven insane. Some die from the attempt. Eventually one succeeds and becomes the King.
Since its the Great Elemental that selects the King, for some quality that is poorly understood, its hard for the Major or Minor Houses to ensure 'their' preferred candidate is selected. All they can do is train a candidate or candidates, and much like big Tobacco and the Pharmecitucal Companies, regardless of who they are primarily backing they spread the money around to all candidates viewed as having anything of a shot. So that even if secretly they are mainly behind your chief rival they still put coin in your pocket. You'll remember that when you are elected.
You have it confused a little bit: there are two separate power structures at play here: the Guilds (economic interest) and the Houses (political interest). Each Guild is dedicated to a particular Circle of Magic, whereas the Houses are governmental bodies, and are more geographically oriented. Anyone who can pass that Circle's Trials has proven himself and can learn that Guild's magic (though each guild will have its own internal structure). The Houses angle to position their members within the guild strategically, which is a common part of the interplay between the Houses. If you gain notoriety in a Guild there is a good possibility you may be adopted into a House, but that is at the full discretion of the House's internal leadership. Houses may have Preferences to one circle or another, but that's more tradition and/or geographic pressures, so a House who's territory is covered in Forrest would likely favor Shamanism (animal magic), Coastal cities would have a preference to Elemental magic of Air and Water, etc.
Each house sets its own internal standards for Rank appointments, but all follow the general principle that a candidate born and raised to the role will be the most qualified through training and familiarity, but that he must prove himself worthy of the power and position by achieving a certain level of mastery in at least one school. Those who blend disciplines exist, but generally cannot get very good without focusing on a single Circle (as generalists tend to do). The Kingship is a special and more formalized/ritualized case, as it is a role that must prove himself to be worthy of being raised above Everyone else, and so is expected to be on par with the Guild Leaders, who are the most powerful/skilled of each Circle.
Maybe anyone can become an heir, they just have to make some sort of pilgrimage. Common folk know the traditional route. Maybe there are six or seven different cities and places you are supposed to visit and it gives you mystical power. In reality what you are doing is going to major nexus loci where the Elemental is manifested in the land, to attune yourself to the Being. Only those that are able to attune, knowingly or unknowingly are able to stand pledge. Maybe there is some test that can measure your attunement. Or maybe its eye color or something. Those that manage to attune to the Elemental get purple eyes with a golden swirl where the pupil used to be. What few realize is that while the major attunement nodal loci are know, there are minor loci no one but a King or well attuned Heir would even realize were present. Perhaps your hero grew up on one of these small hiden loci?
This is more or less what I had in mind. Cities will have Guild-houses based on their size and House affiliations, but every guild required its members to make a pilgrimage to the Temple headquarters at one point or another in their training. Most only go to one (as most can only afford that) but the Higher echelons, especially those expected to take over a Major House or the Throne are expect to journey to each of them and have a much broader base of knowledge. The Story will follow the MC Heir to the throne as he makes that pilgrimage, sheds his sheltered naivete as he learns the truths about the land, and also comes across some of the other Candidates hoping to take the Throne if he fails his Trials (or can be removed before he gets to them)
Also you could have in your history the time to 2 kings, where both were attuned to the Elemental. The Rule of the Crone, an aged lady who lasted 5 years and the age of the Fool, when a child was turned into a drooling idiot but succeeded in making the pact before he died a years later.
As for the position of Queen. Make that different from the position of King's Consort. Maybe the Queen is supposed to tune herself to the 6th Sea. So that when each king dies, and the land starts to slowly sink into the ocean, she talks with the Sea and keeps its from immediately swallowing up the kingdom. Thus giving time for the Heir to form and gather for the ceremony.
Foreign lands and sorcerers and kings would all be scheming and looking for advantage when the king of this land dies. Heck even just killing the king and slaughtering as many heirs as possible might result in the total destruction of these people, as the land was swallowed by water. Demon powers looking to corrupt and destroy. Ideas for attempts to bind the Great Elemental (most doomed to failure). A scheming royal throne that is more than it seems and has an agenda all its own, as well as an unknown quirk of being able to extend its awareness to each of the major loci along the pilgrimage, so it can monitor potential heirs.
Lots of potential ideas here.
The Deposed King
Good ideas, but ranging pretty far afield of image I had im my head. There can be a King or a Queen, whoever sits on the Throne, but marrying that person only earns you the title of Consort. The Consort may well have another Title, within the House or a Guild, and could even lead one in their own right, but that would be something proven through a Trial, like any other position of Power.
For now I really need to keep the kingship a Singular Authority, and there will be quite a bit in the way of magical artifacts that would make any challenger at a major disadvantage. Im leaning more and more toward an external Enemy, but of the Monster or Nature flavor, rather than something that could be reasoned with in a diplomatic sense. I want to keep the Politics internal.
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Sounds like you've got some pretty firm Ideas already. Go forth and conquer!
The Deposed King
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Have you read the Drageara series? It's got an empire that has lasted for hundreds of thousands of years (except for the recent Interregnum), and the 17 houses of the empire follows what you describing in a rough manner.
I think the key there is that while the empire itself is pretty stable, each of the houses has a slightly different philosophy of ruling so that the actual style of rule changes in a (relatively) stable cycle every 8*17*17*17 = 40000 years or so.
Other key points:
- The emperor get his funds from the major houses. These impose their own taxation (though the taxation rules appear to be pretty uniform).
- The emperor control one of the ultimate powers in the world -- in a sense, the emperor is almost divinely chosen.
- A powerful outside enemy that (at least) the house leaders are very much aware of.
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Sounds like you've got some pretty firm Ideas already. Go forth and conquer!
The Deposed King
I have fairly firm Ideas for the Magic system and how it ties to the Astrotheology of the land, its only as I am kicking the idea around with you fine folks that I am getting a clearer picture of the House dynamics. Thanks for your help :)
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Have you read the Drageara series? It's got an empire that has lasted for hundreds of thousands of years (except for the recent Interregnum), and the 17 houses of the empire follows what you describing in a rough manner.
I think the key there is that while the empire itself is pretty stable, each of the houses has a slightly different philosophy of ruling so that the actual style of rule changes in a (relatively) stable cycle every 8*17*17*17 = 40000 years or so.
Other key points:
- The emperor get his funds from the major houses. These impose their own taxation (though the taxation rules appear to be pretty uniform).
- The emperor control one of the ultimate powers in the world -- in a sense, the emperor is almost divinely chosen.
- A powerful outside enemy that (at least) the house leaders are very much aware of.
Taxes will flow directly up the authority tree, so the King will get his "federal" funds from Taxes collected from the Major Houses. I was thinking he could also get some directly from Captial City, but in retrospect I think it would make more sense for the King so simply appoint a local Noble (politically chosen, likely from his house), but let the taxes come as part of the standard Pyramid system.
The more I think about it the more I think making the King a mystical linchpin to some defense system makes more and more sense. It also fits with a minor scenes I had written where the King activates an Heir's Artifact that the Prince wears, which marks him as the invested Heir. The purpose of such a device would be to ensure that there is no gap in rule should a King die, which makes more sense if an empty throne is a more immediate vulnerability.
I definitely need an Enemy I think. I dont want it to be a political enemy, and I dont really want to go so far as a natural disaster sort (like Thread from the Pern novels). So monsters seems to be the way to go, I just need to figure out where to put them, and what the personality is like. They wont be a constant pressure in that I dont want the society to be too militaristic as a whole, so a more looming threat from the past, something that comes once a generation or less...
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All commerce, industry, and technology are based on magic of one form or another (Clocks, plows, stoves, looms, etc. are all some form of magical device). Magic is divided into the Circles of Six and One, which comprise the 7 Guilds that specialize in each Circle. All magic is based on the same fundamental ability to send your mind into something external, ie "Casting". Theologically their is one Circle for each of the Planets in the Solar System, six other planets and Earth(ish) as the One, which is mastery of your own Body rather than enxternal Casting. In practice, the Circle in which a person can Cast is determined by their psychological inclinations. Because it takes different and often incompatible psychologies to Cast in different Circles, crossover is possible but not common. So a Mind Mage who is used to absolute control of his working may have difficulty with the surrender required for Seers to Cast into the Sky, or with the guiding the quantities of primal energy that the Elemetalist channel.
The Circles of Six and One are as Follows:
-Seers - Rare, they cast themselves into the skies, and gain knowledge from it. Monastic, typically preside over Birthing in order to calculate a proper Sky-name.
-Elementalists - They cast into one or more of the Four Elements, the Primal energies. One of the oldest known circles
-Druids/Shaman - Cast into the Living World, ie. Plants and Animals
-Blood Mages - Cast into other Human Beings; Healers. Requires blood to blood contact to facilitate the connection.
-Artificers - Can create Magic items with permanent Connections (as opposed to the Charged items most other circles can make), required in the most powerful of Artifacts.
-Mind Magic - Symbolic "Pattern" Magic. Most "scientific" and urban of the Circles. Uses layers of abstraction and modular patterns to create complex and intricate effects.
All people have some level of potential for casting, so it is not a purely hereditary talent, but rather a skill that still requires effort to train and develop, even if you are born with innate talent. A Noble house or Major house is not powerful because they produce more innately powerful Casters, rather they are powerful because they are old enough to have accumulated their Power in the forms of land, influence, magical secrets, and powerful artifacts. Children born to the nobility have the advantages wealth typically brings, such as more indepth education, heirloom magical artifacts, trade secrets held by the family, and the freedom to pursue personal development that you get when you dont have to work to put food on the table. But a tradesman that works a particular magic every day as part of his job may well become just as powerful a caster as a Noble that spent all day in training exercises. And such powerful tradesman would have a good chance of being adopted into a Noble House, or even of founding a smaller one of his own.
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I love your concepts for this wonderful world and they spark all sorts of nifty things in my head. I really enjoy the time frame, the fantasy world, the journey, and the backbone you are constructing. I've no idea if these thoughts fit with your flow, but here are some hodge-podge ideas this thread and your idea sparked. Still, what I wanted to 'play' with wouldn't work with the traditional definitions. So, off to a dictionary to find what I wanted. I highlighted them.
Free dictionary defines a monarchy as:mon·ar·chy (mnr-k, -är-)
n. pl. mon·ar·chies
1. Government by a monarch.
2. A state ruled or headed by a monarch.
And a monarch as:
n.
1. One who reigns over a state or territory, usually for life and by hereditary right, especially:
a. A sole and absolute ruler.
b. A sovereign, such as a king or empress, often with constitutionally limited authority: a constitutional monarch.
2. One that commands or rules: "I am monarch of all I survey" (William Cowper).
3. One that surpasses others in power or preeminence: "Mont Blanc is the monarch of the mountains" (Byron).
4. A monarch butterfly.
First to MClark. Monarchies aren't always bad, but the 'heirs' often are. The problem with monarchies is succession. That's why I went to the definitions, because I didn't know if you could have a monarchy that was not by genetic line. Apparently, you can. Perhaps autocracy is a better term for where my mind drifted.
2nd: As to the concept of trials, there is no guarantee that succeeding at trials will evolve a true moral leader. Besting others in magic schools and physical power might assure power, but not necessarily just and wise rule--unless trials test more than 'might'. (Somehow that bores me.) I saw your world as a threatened utopia.
3rd: I'm especially drawn to the secret society option, but as others have pointed out, this has as many inherent problems such as the might = right problem. Still, I was so drawn that I had to figure out a way to make it work within your world. See below.
4th: Lost Stars and Astrology-very exciting.
Further, I've assumed that you begin with a utopia that is threatened. In other words, this system has worked well for thousands of years. (I'm always a fan of Lost Horizon stories.) How does it work well?
Also, 'breaking out of the insulation of wealth and power' is another favorite plot line for me, i.e. succeeding over poverty or wealth or power into a higher consciousness. Then I always want that soul to attempt ascension to leadership, bringing the society with it. Usually it fails in the story, but the glorious flight to the sun ending in crash is still a favorite.
MClark: Yes to princess and yes to your male or female sovereign.
The Deposed King: Yes to the pilgrimage. Hero's journeys work. The Alchemist will always be a favorite of mine.
Suggest opening your Guild (economic) and your House (political) conflict concept needs to be expanded to include the Magic Schools (seats of knowledge/history/occult).
As to taxes, you mention the Guilds and the Houses, but don't overlook the Schools. They could be your 3rd pillar. Just because they are schools in you magical society they probably have power and money and thus should be taxed as well.
Key question to answer is, "Why does the society follow this monarchy system?" You've given and been given some ideas. My idea goes backward from those since I begin with an utopia and see it threatened. And you are right, you need the villain. It's essential. On the other hand, this is such a cool world to play in! I further see it as a world of knowledge without need for money, but that doesn't mean there isn't political intrigue. Why? Because I'd prefer to pursue the ethics of leadership over the mundane of economy in this world. That's just me--or because I'm so wrapped up in economic turmoil in my current WiP... :-) It can get a tad boring to make exciting.
So, what if... The schools, the guilds, the houses (geographical over genetic line houses) select, via their own various tests, five-year-old children who enter the 'monarch school'. This school is isolated from the world and all students give up cast and their families. Raised by super monks or Buddhist-type isolationists, these 'talented' young children will feed the upper echelons of the schools, and perhaps the guilds and houses. The finalists slip into the other magic schools at high levels to be tested. The top finalists are sent out on the journey penniless to prove their wisdom (or to gain their wisdom). The monks have no influence outside the school other than to monitor the finalists so there is no threat they will influence the future heir. When the final selection is made--it is made by those who cannot influence the future leader---train and release concept.
Yes, this is sounding like a familiar plot line, isn't it? Goldie Oldie. Then I'd interweave the conflict as background as the journey is made. Let the evil be seen as a creeping blight upon the people these individuals meet--frightening and seen to be growing. Any battles are small at first and individual growing in depth and ever growing populace. As they gain their wisdom, they are also being exposed to what they must learn to fight. Some would fall to the evil, others would fail and fall away back into the masses, a few will succeed only to lose, and one... only one becomes the lost star to lead the world. In a way, these 'lost stars' are like comets--some burn out with specatular bursts of beauty, some never get close enough to see, but a rare one will brighten the night sky with hope. These concepts sound christian, but are actually universal theologies and fulfill universal needs within all of us.
Uhm... That I would like to read. Good luck, my friend.
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I love your concepts for this wonderful world and they spark all sorts of nifty things in my head. I really enjoy the time frame, the fantasy world, the journey, and the backbone you are constructing. I've no idea if these thoughts fit with your flow, but here are some hodge-podge ideas this thread and your idea sparked. Still, what I wanted to 'play' with wouldn't work with the traditional definitions. So, off to a dictionary to find what I wanted. I highlighted them.
2nd: As to the concept of trials, there is no guarantee that succeeding at trials will evolve a true moral leader. Besting others in magic schools and physical power might assure power, but not necessarily just and wise rule--unless trials test more than 'might'. (Somehow that bores me.) I saw your world as a threatened utopia.
A Trial by Combat would be only one of the available Trials, and a bit of an archaic one at that. Mostly it would be Trials to perform magic of suitably large scale/complexity to be counted as an equal by your Peers in the Circle, craft a masterpiece, Manage the business into record gains, etc. In many cases the Trials to prove yourself worthy of a House position would basically just mean you achieve a suitable rank in one of the Circles. The point of the Trial idea is to allow for abberant talents to gain recognition even if they dont have House backing, for useless people to be prevented from gaining authority, and to support the idea that those in power have proven themselves worthy of leadership, though the definitions of "Worthy" will varry some from house to house, and is a theme I plan to explore some during the story. But military might will still be a big plus, as im thinking the threat of monster invasion will be a motivating force in the society.
Suggest opening your Guild (economic) and your House (political) conflict concept needs to be expanded to include the Magic Schools (seats of knowledge/history/occult).
As to taxes, you mention the Guilds and the Houses, but don't overlook the Schools. They could be your 3rd pillar. Just because they are schools in you magical society they probably have power and money and thus should be taxed as well.
The Guilds /are/ the Schools, the seats of knowledge. Each guild is responsible for teaching (and more recently Certifying) any with aptitude to learn and who can make the pilgrimage to one of the Temples (promising candidates may be sponsored, etc). If you have ever read the PERN novels by Anne Mccaffery, its the same idea: Houses and Guilds for Holds and Crafthalls, respectively. A person goes off to learn their craft, with the general understanding that they will be expected to come home and practice their skills for the good of their Family. Cities support a Guildhalls to promote the industry they represent, and will have biases based on their land's resources and such. A guildhall in turn trains the local populous, identifies potential talents worthy of Pilgrimage to a larger Hall for advanced training, and maintains the knowledge and practical standards. The actual commerce will take place in a more traditional shop/marketplace setting, with individual merchant Houses selling their wares (usually magic to some degree) that were created with the help of whatever talents the Family has trained, and whatever Artifacts they have managed to accumulate over their history. Families tend to spawn similar talents, but this is a Nurture over Nature instance; Fire Elementalists tend to raise their kids to think like Fire Elementalists, and as a direct result they are better suited for it. Same goes for a Shaman or Mage, etc.
Key question to answer is, "Why does the society follow this monarchy system?" You've given and been given some ideas. My idea goes backward from those since I begin with an utopia and see it threatened. And you are right, you need the villain. It's essential. On the other hand, this is such a cool world to play in! I further see it as a world of knowledge without need for money, but that doesn't mean there isn't political intrigue. Why? Because I'd prefer to pursue the ethics of leadership over the mundane of economy in this world. That's just me--or because I'm so wrapped up in economic turmoil in my current WiP... :-) It can get a tad boring to make exciting.
This is why Im leaning toward the looming invasion threat. Have the Leaders play a vital role in some established defense system, so that any breach of continuity would be seen as a catastrophic vulnerability. They can plot and scheme for who will fill the roles, but they are all darwinianly (real word?) committed to maintaining the current system.
As far as the currency, Im willing to leave it as a loosely established thing, so that barter will stil be a common business mode. Its further complicated since Magic is the main valuable thing, so striking the balance between good and services will be tricky. I want Magic and magic items to be commonplace, so low level charms or other charged-use magic items will be needed. I havent decided if I should have currency issued by the Guilds in some standardized unit of Energy (essentially bartering with either batteries or some common denominator charm from each Circle); in this case actual commerce would still be a barter system, but with these small object as the common measuring unit. The other option would be to have the Throne or maybe each of the Major houses issue their own currency, but then that brings things back to a modern Wealth based economics, as well as exchange rates and such, which I dont know enough about Economics to do well.
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So what characters will you create to play in this cool world? And i love darwinianly. It is my new fav word of the week. Off topic, i've been playing scrable online with my kids. An amazing number of scifi terms are not 'legit such as fae. The game is rigged!
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So what characters will you create to play in this cool world? And i love darwinianly. It is my new fav word of the week. Off topic, i've been playing scrable online with my kids. An amazing number of scifi terms are not 'legit such as fae. The game is rigged!
Well, the MC is the crown Price and Heir to the Throne. He will be traveling with a mentor/bodyguard character who is a master Martial Artist (need a better name for the One Circle...maybe the Terra Cotta, since it is the Earth circle, astrologically). The Mentor is a Lost Star who was living on the streets as a boy when the King found and sponsored him. Shortly they will be joined by a companion sidekick sort, a lowborn who is training to be a Fire Elementalist. There will also be a scion of a rival house, an arrogant Mind Mage, who is being groomed as an alternate candidate for the Throne, should the Heir Fail or Fall. The other house will be the polar opposite of the generally benevolent and progressively idealistic House the prince is from.
The story will follow the Prince as he sets out alone on his Pilgrimage to each of the 7 Circle's primary Temple. He will start will a somewhat Naive outlook on the world, thanks to the sheltered upbringing of a Prince in the Capital. As he travels he will be going through various disillusionments designed to contrast the difference between the Idealized system of the kingdom vs the practical implementation and its various interpretations by the different Major Houses.
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I'll look forward to reading some of your chapters, when you're ready.
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If and when they come to be. :-)
Be warned this is a story that I started in Highschool, wrote a prolouge for one night in College, and just dusted off after years of inactivity. And its not my only project, or even my only writing project. So there may not be anything solid very soon.
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In case of no monarch, have a "Council of Regents" who keep the government running until a new monarch is chosen.
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In case of no monarch, have a "Council of Regents" who keep the government running until a new monarch is chosen.
Thats what Im pondering... I already had a scene where the failing King activated a special artifact worn by the prince that was suppose to activate when the King dies and the rulership passes. I had originally thought of it as simply an informational thing, basically just calling the Prince back and marking him as the designated heir. However if I run with the idea that the king is a linchpin in a magical system that involves several magical Artifact with particular roles (the Crown, the Throne, the Heir's Pendant, the Seals of the Circle Leaders, etc) then it would have more to do with the role of the King being filled at all times. After that the Circle leaders would be reposponsible for testing him before his Corronation to fully ratify his rule. If he is found unable, they will then be free to choose one of the alternate candidated that the Major houses put forward as the next in line to face the same Trials. Should they burn throught that one they will move on the the next in line and so on until they have a "worthy". But the chain of Kings would remain unbroken, and full on wars for succession would not really work, or at least would threaten the defense system, and so would be viewed as genocidal.
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Thats what Im pondering... I already had a scene where the failing King activated a special artifact worn by the prince that was suppose to activate when the King dies and the rulership passes. I had originally thought of it as simply an informational thing, basically just calling the Prince back and marking him as the designated heir. However if I run with the idea that the king is a linchpin in a magical system that involves several magical Artifact with particular roles (the Crown, the Throne, the Heir's Pendant, the Seals of the Circle Leaders, etc) then it would have more to do with the role of the King being filled at all times. After that the Circle leaders would be reposponsible for testing him before his Corronation to fully ratify his rule. If he is found unable, they will then be free to choose one of the alternate candidated that the Major houses put forward as the next in line to face the same Trials. Should they burn throught that one they will move on the the next in line and so on until they have a "worthy". But the chain of Kings would remain unbroken, and full on wars for succession would not really work, or at least would threaten the defense system, and so would be viewed as genocidal.
If you use the "Council of Regents" idea, you could also have it where they become the extreme candidates of last resort.
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A gentle and general reminder... this thread has a heap ton of useful and interesting stuff, but just want to remind everyone we've got to remember not to go into any real-world value judgments on political systems. Like "X is inherently dumb/evil/etc because YZ" or commentary on current politics.
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a possible idea is having one school being able to summon the spirits of the dead, and having a council of fallen kings whose only job it is to choose [or if they screw up dethrone] the current king. of course seeing as the current council were all picked they'd all have qualities the older members of the council liked and when they joined the council they would pick those qualities in the new king. since they would be dead they'd be able to watch all possible candidates schooling and moral ability.
Another possible idea is to have a prerequisite of being able to rule a major territory is to rule the minor territory that your family has there seat in. so if a major house ruled the duchy of x but had there city in the barony of y, the ruler would be a duke while the heir would rule the barony with equal rank to all the other barons in the duchy. in a similar way the council of fallen kings would only pick those who have proven capable of rule, so the old king would have to give his chosen heir the chance to rule the duchy of his family seat. this rule shouldn't be set into the constitution or anything becuase if all the dukes were incompetent there'd have to be other options, but it should still be a common tradition.,
and of course the fallen kings would prefer there family, allowing dynasties, but those of fallen dynasties would be on the council, acting as a limiting factor.
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That's a really neat idea. Although now my head's spinning off in the direction of ghosts teaching history... "And now, class, please welcome Socrates, Abraham Lincoln, and Winston Churchill..."
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That's a really neat idea. Although now my head's spinning off in the direction of ghosts teaching history... "And now, class, please welcome Socrates, Abraham Lincoln, and Winston Churchill..."
A bit Bill and Ted, no ?
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A bit Bill and Ted, no ?
More like a bit Stranger in a Strange Land.
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So this is something Ive been kicking around for a while. I want to make a Monarchy that works for the long haul, one that has checks and balances to avoid the typical pitfalls. I like the monarchy idea in the sense that a single person who is trained and molded from birth to be a Leader could potentially be far better prepared to actually Lead a nation than any ladder climbing elected official you could find.
Until I read your last post, I was somewhat surprised that in a high fantasy setting you do not have a magical framework for the concept of monarch itself; it would seem to me that any testing by a Council of Regents (or a body of prince-electors maybe?) would also have to be synched to that magical framework. Unless you are setting up a 'magical fit vs. merit fit' type of scenario? Like throwing Her Majesty's Wizard into a blender with Difference Engine?
A bit Bill and Ted, no ?
I was thinking Lexx with a glaze of La nuit de Varennes.
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Until I read your last post, I was somewhat surprised that in a high fantasy setting you do not have a magical framework for the concept of monarch itself; it would seem to me that any testing by a Council of Regents (or a body of prince-electors maybe?) would also have to be synched to that magical framework. Unless you are setting up a 'magical fit vs. merit fit' type of scenario? Like throwing Her Majesty's Wizard into a blender with Difference Engine?
individual words make sense, but Im not really sure what you are saying... :-[
I want to build the social, economic, and political structures around the framework of the magical system, but I wanted to use social pressures were possible, just to keep the structure from being too magically heavy handed. I want to make sure I have a system of People with magical pressures acting on it, rather than a Magical system that has Human components working in it. Does that make sense?
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individual words make sense, but Im not really sure what you are saying... :-[
Is the meritocracy /within/ the magical underpinning of the throne or is the candidate's evaluation-on-merit in conflict with the _magical_ checks and balances of the throne?
Extending the issue further, in a world with such magical permeation, I see that pretty much all social and political 'rights' would need to have a magical underpinning. IOW if you want to give your populace Magna Carta-type rights, there needs to be a magical reason for it.
I want to build the social, economic, and political structures around the framework of the magical system, but I wanted to use social pressures were possible, just to keep the structure from being too magically heavy handed.
Why separate them?
As I see it, social pressures within a world with your magical framework can NOT be modeled by simple easy principles taken from our world. Guild systems, for example, are great for those who do in fact reach mastery and eventual emeritus status- but how does everyone else retire or invest or provide for themselves? Mass production (or mass resource exploitation) makes both retirement and investment a lot simpler but how does one do mass production when production is based on individual effort (of sending the brain into mindmeld with some cosmic element)? It would be very, very simple for a world like that to descend into a magic-production-slavery mode for a lot of the same reasons cotton-crop slavery, sugar-crop slavery and pre-industrial-mining slavery existed. Anne McCaffrey's Pern didn't go down this path because she essentially made each Hold into a need-based commune (and we can definitely read dragonriders as culturally analogous to Party members).
I want to make sure I have a system of People with magical pressures acting on it, rather than a Magical system that has Human components working in it. Does that make sense?
Again, I feel it would be very hard to create believable "systems of people" and then tack on magic in a world in which all human interaction with non-human reality is based on magic. Systems of people are based on relationships and expectations and entitlements - all of which are going to have a magical component in your world. That would be like (actually worse than) creating the Dragaeran Empire without the Orb and without the Cycle and without the Gods - and then adding magic. It is a lot more believable to this spectator that all or most political solutions will include a direct magical component.
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Is the meritocracy /within/ the magical underpinning of the throne or is the candidate's evaluation-on-merit in conflict with the _magical_ checks and balances of the throne?
Extending the issue further, in a world with such magical permeation, I see that pretty much all social and political 'rights' would need to have a magical underpinning. IOW if you want to give your populace Magna Carta-type rights, there needs to be a magical reason for it.
There will be a magical reason for the upper tier structure (King, Heir, Guild Leaders, Major House Leaders) which will be tied to a defense grid of some kind protecting the land from the outside Danger. But the human rights and general system balance will be a product of the founding badasses that set up said magical defense grid (something I need to delve into more). Similar to the US founding fathers, they will have specific views about how a person should use and can abuse power, so they were setting up a system that they hoped would mitigate some of the dangers and abuses they were familiar with.
The founding idea behind the Monarchy is that Family is important, but not due to Blood. Rather its the Idea that children raised to a particular role in society will be better suited for that role (like how scientist parents often spawn scientist children becasue they are exposed to it from an early age, and can benefit from the accumulated knowledge of the family. Higher up that also include accumulted wealth and magical artifacts, but the core is that the Family unit (a large, extended family at all levels) is your shelter and support throughout your life. Adoption and fostering will be common, but the social norm will be to go off to a guild school with the intent to come back and use what you learn for the benefit of your Family, usually by applying whatever skill and power you learned to the family business.
Why separate them?
As I see it, social pressures within a world with your magical framework can NOT be modeled by simple easy principles taken from our world. Guild systems, for example, are great for those who do in fact reach mastery and eventual emeritus status- but how does everyone else retire or invest or provide for themselves? Mass production (or mass resource exploitation) makes both retirement and investment a lot simpler but how does one do mass production when production is based on individual effort (of sending the brain into mindmeld with some cosmic element)? It would be very, very simple for a world like that to descend into a magic-production-slavery mode for a lot of the same reasons cotton-crop slavery, sugar-crop slavery and pre-industrial-mining slavery existed. Anne McCaffrey's Pern didn't go down this path because she essentially made each Hold into a need-based commune (and we can definitely read dragonriders as culturally analogous to Party members).
They are not separate, i just listed them to be inclusive of the forces I want to have on stage.
If I keep the population density low enough, and the level of "technological" development in line, I think it can be made to work. I am pictureing a setting similar to the Old West with magic swords; frontier land in the midst of an early industrial revolution. Settlements will be spread out, with hostile wilderness between. Magic and magic items are common, but at that level; some local made by craftsmen, others shipped in from urban area's with new industry. Magical energy is literally the currency (stored and traded in small objects, but more in the old school sense that it is just a useful common ground for barter trade.
Previously the guilds were very "old school" in the secrets and showy magic. The aging king changed that. He was a powerful Pattern Mage who instituted a system of accreditation. This let more people from the days of secret lore and disconnected magic Circle to a more cooperative place. Pattern Magic ties various magical processes (which may or may not be cast by the same person) into a complex working whole. The King instituted a system that lets anyone with the ability get credentials as a Lvl 1 Fire Conjurer, or maybe a a person can get credentials as a Grade 2 Fire Source; then regardless of whether they were initially trained as an Elementaist, a Druid, Magus, etc., they can be plugged into the spell and serve the needed function. The Industrial revolution was possible because of the idea of Interchangeable Parts. The accreditation system provides a standard to allow interchangeable Casters. This leads to a much more widespread practice of communal workings, giving industry a chance to take root. But resources will be scarce enough to prevent too big of a mass market explosion.
Exploitation is always a danger, and the hierarchical society makes it moreso. Some of the magic can mitigate it, like the cotton gin making large scale cotton slavery less economical. But there will be a good deal of room for evil people to do evil things, as always. The story itself is going to highlight these things, showing the Prince how widely varied the different Housedoms are and how they can so differently implement the same system (spirit of law vs letter of law, Freedom vs Order, Public servant vs ruler, etc).
Again, I feel it would be very hard to create believable "systems of people" and then tack on magic in a world in which all human interaction with non-human reality is based on magic. Systems of people are based on relationships and expectations and entitlements - all of which are going to have a magical component in your world. That would be like (actually worse than) creating the Dragaeran Empire without the Orb and without the Cycle and without the Gods - and then adding magic. It is a lot more believable to this spectator that all or most political solutions will include a direct magical component.
Havent read that one, but I think you misunderstand my intent. I am not trying to slap a magic system on top, Im trying to interweave them. I just want it to be a system that people built, and so follows some sort of reasonable human logic (otherwise I can have the characters reasonably debate its pros and cons). What I am trying to avoid is a system wherethe King rules because some God said so, and the Houses are their because they have always been, or because the magic system makes it unavoidable or some such. It needs to be a system that everyone is attached to enough to preserve, so tyrants dont just try to topple the whole thing, but also something is not so divinely mandated that the MC cant come along and make massive changes when the time comes. It need to be a system with human logic behind it, so that human logic can argue both for change and for maintaining the status quo.
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Previously the guilds were very "old school" in the secrets and showy magic. The aging king changed that. He was a powerful Pattern Mage who instituted a system of accreditation. This let more people from the days of secret lore and disconnected magic Circle to a more cooperative place. Pattern Magic ties various magical processes (which may or may not be cast by the same person) into a complex working whole. The King instituted a system that lets anyone with the ability get credentials as a Lvl 1 Fire Conjurer, or maybe a a person can get credentials as a Grade 2 Fire Source; then regardless of whether they were initially trained as an Elementaist, a Druid, Magus, etc., they can be plugged into the spell and serve the needed function. The Industrial revolution was possible because of the idea of Interchangeable Parts. The accreditation system provides a standard to allow interchangeable Casters. This leads to a much more widespread practice of communal workings, giving industry a chance to take root.
This reads pretty well to me.
But resources will be scarce enough to prevent too big of a mass market explosion.
This scares me.
Havent read that one, but I think you misunderstand my intent. I am not trying to slap a magic system on top, Im trying to interweave them. I just want it to be a system that people built, and so follows some sort of reasonable human logic (otherwise I can have the characters reasonably debate its pros and cons). What I am trying to avoid is a system wherethe King rules because some God said so, and the Houses are their because they have always been, or because the magic system makes it unavoidable or some such. It needs to be a system that everyone is attached to enough to preserve, so tyrants dont just try to topple the whole thing, but also something is not so divinely mandated that the MC cant come along and make massive changes when the time comes. It need to be a system with human logic behind it, so that human logic can argue both for change and for maintaining the status quo.
Fair enough; my suggestion would be to build at least two nontrivial social systems so that they can test each others robustness, and do not try to have each one spring Athena-like out of founding fathers' heads. The social systems that existed in the Western US in the late 19th century were based on a very long chain of redefinitions of the concept of monarchy, and the chain would have failed without any of the links, without the Magna Carta, without Cromwell, without Churchill, without Rousseau and Locke, without the US Civil War, without the Fourteenth amendment. In our own world, without every one of those separate steps (and without a working machine-based industry to support it) the "Old West" could so very easily have been a Chinese-slavery state run by an English-speaking viceroy.
The task then, within your world, is to invent at least one nation-state that has magically-enabled equivalents to all that turmoil of social contracting.
For me, it would probably be a lot easier to start at the bottom, to start at a working system of divine-right monarchy, and invent two different branches away from that, than to start with a close-to-present-day concept of human rights and try to reverse engineer it. Good luck.
(And the reason I cited Dragaera is because Brust is quite clever enough to have set up exactly what I referred to earlier - a conflict between a purely mundane social system trying to be an empire then tack on magic later, and a magically-enabled social system that has no choice but to be an empire or lose magic altogether)
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Fair enough; my suggestion would be to build at least two nontrivial social systems so that they can test each others robustness, and do not try to have each one spring Athena-like out of founding fathers' heads. The social systems that existed in the Western US in the late 19th century were based on a very long chain of redefinitions of the concept of monarchy, and the chain would have failed without any of the links, without the Magna Carta, without Cromwell, without Churchill, without Rousseau and Locke, without the US Civil War, without the Fourteenth amendment. In our own world, without every one of those separate steps (and without a working machine-based industry to support it) the "Old West" could so very easily have been a Chinese-slavery state run by an English-speaking viceroy.
The task then, within your world, is to invent at least one nation-state that has magically-enabled equivalents to all that turmoil of social contracting.
For me, it would probably be a lot easier to start at the bottom, to start at a working system of divine-right monarchy, and invent two different branches away from that, than to start with a close-to-present-day concept of human rights and try to reverse engineer it. Good luck.
(And the reason I cited Dragaera is because Brust is quite clever enough to have set up exactly what I referred to earlier - a conflict between a purely mundane social system trying to be an empire then tack on magic later, and a magically-enabled social system that has no choice but to be an empire or lose magic altogether)
The system isnt going to be somethign that sprung forth "Athena Style," but is will be somethign that was planned out from the start rather than accumulated in pieces (think US constitution more than the British development). It will ahve happened in recorded history when teh previous system failed misreably and was scrapped. The Founders responsible for saving everyone then set about designing a better system, which was the purpose of this thread. The whole point of this monarchy is to make one that is not a Divine Right monarchy, or based on any idea of superior bloodline. Its a monarchy built on the belief that a person is best suited for a position if they have been raised and prepared for it their whole lives.
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The Founders responsible for saving everyone then set about designing a better system, which was the purpose of this thread.
A matter of perspective, I guess; I call that still rather Athena-like. The US system needed several hundred years of preludes, revolts and revolutions - 1776 simply could not have happened without 1215 and 1642 and 1688 - that all incrementally changed monarchical definition. What you're setting up seems to me more closely akin to the Code Napoleon.
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The more I think about it the more I think making the King a mystical linchpin to some defense system makes more and more sense.
I definitely need an Enemy I think. I dont want it to be a political enemy, and I dont really want to go so far as a natural disaster sort (like Thread from the Pern novels).
Well, since you have a cosmological event already in your context, how about this:
The kingdom was founded after a massive series of meteorite strikes upon the area. The survivors banded together to form the kingdom. As they recovered, a strange crystalline mass was found. It came from the stars, and appears to be sentient. It advised the survivors how to build and structure their kingdom. The Regent is bound to it upon taking the throne- thus the strongest candidate is chosen. That is the official story.
As your heir in waiting goes along, he uncovers the real story, known only to the leaders of the great houses. The crystalline structre is alive, and detests humanity. When it crashed, humans attempted to break it up like they would a diamond. In anger, it called out to the meteors above, ravaging the land. Only the strongest of the survivors was able to bind the creatures will to their own. Thus it has always been- the strongest of them must force the creature to submit at the new regents coronation to ensure the survival of the land.
That the regent might allow the entitiy some free reign to send a few city smashing meteoroids into a wayward Houses stronghold is enough to ensure their civility.
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Nobody has mentioned Plato's The Republic, and its concept of a Philosopher King as the ideal type of ruler for a city-state. I don't think that Socrates and Plato are taught much in public schools now, but this was the source of choosing a wise, just and truthful leader based on his talents and abilities, as determined by the wisest citizens of the state.
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Nobody has mentioned Plato's The Republic, and its concept of a Philosopher King as the ideal type of ruler for a city-state. I don't think that Socrates and Plato are taught much in public schools now, but this was the source of choosing a wise, just and truthful leader based on his talents and abilities, as determined by the wisest citizens of the state.
After a short of wiki-crawl on the subject, I think that will be a goldmine for defining the character of the different houses! Thanks
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After a short of wiki-crawl on the subject, I think that will be a goldmine for defining the character of the different houses! Thanks
Be careful - Plato is like guns, horses and sailing - there are people with simply vast knowledge of the material out there who'd simply love to pick it all apart, and even the ones with less knowledge can get tempted to try.
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Be careful - Plato is like guns, horses and sailing - there are people with simply vast knowledge of the material out there who'd simply love to pick it all apart, and even the ones with less knowledge can get tempted to try.
So true. I certainly wont be quoting him in any way, but I like the reasoned progressions from one structure to another, and how it goes into the mindsets of each type of ruler. It will help me flesh out the motivations and idealogies of the different Major Houses.
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Differing philosophies on what constitutes "wisest" give you a great deal of room to work in everything from comedy to knife fights. (Which aren't really mutually exclusive.) Think Theoretical Physicists vs. Applied Science types or engineers. (Or just watch some Big Bang Theory.)
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I've read the whole thread (whew!) and i like what you're thinking, but the one thing that keeps rubber-banding back into my mind is this:
Stable Government... don't make really good stories. Usually.
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I've read the whole thread (whew!) and i like what you're thinking, but the one thing that keeps rubber-banding back into my mind is this:
Stable Government... don't make really good stories. Usually.
Stability tends to lead to Conservatism, then to stagnation. That spells Opportunity to someone with ambitions.
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I've read the whole thread (whew!) and i like what you're thinking, but the one thing that keeps rubber-banding back into my mind is this:
Stable Government... don't make really good stories. Usually.
Stability tends to lead to Conservatism, then to stagnation. That spells Opportunity to someone with ambitions.
I wouldnt go so far as to call it stable, but What Im going for is a political situation where the various factions are all still committed to the current structure, rather than constantly all gathering up their armies for overt War whenever they disagree. That way they all will be equally freaked out when the MC shows up with powers that completely shake the foundations of the Status Quo.
Its only going to start stable. And the Stability is something that exists because most conflicts are within a given area, and so dont often cross borders and grow enough to threaten the whole of society.
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I wouldnt go so far as to call it stable, but What Im going for is a political situation where the various factions are all still committed to the current structure, rather than constantly all gathering up their armies for overt War whenever they disagree. That way they all will be equally freaked out when the MC shows up with powers that completely shake the foundations of the Status Quo.
If the magicotechnological-industrial base is growing as rapidly as I've understood from your earlier posts, of course it will not be stable. Are you going to try for a from-the-center-outwards pattern (with the frontier being sort-of-last-to-get cultural shifts)? Or are you going to posit independence leading to nucleation of ideas so that new memes can arise anywhere?
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Im going with Fate knocking over the whole Sandcastle before they get the chance. Specifically, the MC will upset the status quo by having power that breaks all the rules. Its different enough, with scary far-reaching implications, so those in power are going to try to make it/him go away, for various reasons (fear/ambition/zealotry). But more than likely Ancient Evil (not seen since the Founding of the current system) will come crashing back into the world, which will force priorities to a much more basic and darwinian vector, so that whatever works and saves the day is . Of course not everyone will be as willing or able to adapt as others, but that will be the fun part.