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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Mr. Death on May 20, 2012, 06:52:44 PM
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So, most sponsored magic allows you to cast Thaumaturgic rituals with the speed and methods of evocation (set power with Conviction, roll Discipline to control), and you can normally devote focus item slots to either Thaumaturgy spells of a given type, or Evocation spells of a given element.
So, my question is, if you have a character with a focus item for Thaumaturgic rituals, and a sponsored magic that allows that type of ritual to be cast with Evocation's speed and methoids, does the focus item still contribute to power/complexity or control?
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It definitely does not contribute to power, as there is no such thing as a thaumaturgic power focus.
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That's why I said "power/complexity."
In a regular thaumaturgic ritual, the amount of power you can put in at a moment's notice is your Lore score. In a regular evocation spell, the amount of power you can put in at a moment's notice is based around your Conviction score.
So I figured, for a thaumaturgic ritual cast with the speed and methods of evocation, power and complexity would be essentially the same thing.
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The spell itself is evocation, so no thaumaturgy foci.
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In a regular thaumaturgic ritual, the amount of power you can put in at a moment's notice is your Lore score.
And this is where you're wrong. The amount of power you can pump into a thaumaturgic ritual on a moment's notice is still equal to your Conviction. The Complexity of the ritual that you can pump that power into is equal to your Lore.
Power and Complexity are different things.
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Okay, Tedronai? Take a step back. I thought I made it pretty clear what I was referring to in context (the total power of the spell), so quit jumping down my throat over the semantics. You don't need to start throwing in the bold and italics as if I've committed some stupidity you have to correct, and I'm tired of the hostility you always seem to post with.
I know what the bloody terms mean. I referred to them as the same because I'm not talking about normal Thaumaturgy, I'm talking about Thaumaturgy with Evocation's methods and speed, in which case the "complexity" is the power.
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I'd let you use your complexity bonus, I don't think it would create that big of a problem. Remember, you still have to conjure up all that energy in 1 roll, so really game breaking insta rituals are probably not going to happen. And if they do, you can easily cut them down by invoking the methods of evocation, for example the "only one aspect per maneuver" rule, to not let powerful wizards lay down 3 aspects in one exchange.
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Okay, Tedronai? Take a step back. I thought I made it pretty clear what I was referring to in context (the total power of the spell), so quit jumping down my throat over the semantics. You don't need to start throwing in the bold and italics as if I've committed some stupidity you have to correct, and I'm tired of the hostility you always seem to post with.
I assure you that the hostility of which you speak is not inherent to the text, but rather to your interpretation of it. I will endeavor to frame my posts in such a way as to discourage such interpretations, but part of that task must rest with you in endeavoring to interpret my posts neutrally.
I know what the bloody terms mean. I referred to them as the same because I'm not talking about normal Thaumaturgy, I'm talking about Thaumaturgy with Evocation's methods and speed, in which case the "complexity" is the power.
The Complexity is is not the Power. The Power is the Power, whether dealing with evocation's methods or with thaumaturgy's.
Using the methods of evocation, though, means that there is no longer any such thing as Complexity.
A thaumaturgic ritual determines Complexity, then summons Power. It uses both.
Evocation uses only Power. It cares not a whit for Complexity.
Any interpretation otherwise is, again, solely of your own doing.
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The question here has no correct answer, because the rules for evothaum are honestly not all that well-written.
Tedronai's posts seemed non-hostile to me. He's posted worse without any complaint, as have you and I.
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Tedronai's posts seemed non-hostile to me. He's posted worse without any complaint, as have you and I.
Only responding to this because the boards as a whole seem to have become hostile lately. Comments below are general observations, not targeted at any individual. I've certainly had my own communications issues.
1. The past is not an excuse for the future. Ideally we learn from it and improve. Too often we simply repeat it.
2. Forum communication is limited to words...which, in face to face communication only carry about 30% of the meaning. Because we're limited to words, choice of wording is important. Actually, it's almost everything - emoticons kinda suck as communication tools.
3. Perception matters. Managing how people perceive us or our message is the intent of communication. On forums such as this, only our words affect how others perceive us.
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You can't say that any "hostility" is on the part of the listener. It goes both ways, I can't interpret hostility out of wholecloth. Well, I could, but I'm not.
Instead of the longer thing I came up with on the drive to work, I'll just say this: Yes, I know how Thaumaturgy works. And I know how Evocation works. And it annoys me when someone feels they have to lecture me on things I already know, when I thought I had made it clear that I already knew.
In the interest of getting this back on topic, I'll rephrase the question so that things are clear.
With Evothaum, you get the effect of a Thaumaturgy spell (normally the complexity), with the methods of Evocation (power). Ergo, with an evothaum spell, the thaumaturgic complexity is interchangeable with the evocation power--they're both the end result, total effect of the spell defined by the number of shifts of power you can put into it. An Evothaum spell cast with a power of 8 has an effect equal to a thaumaturgic spell cast with a complexity of 8.
So, my question is, do the focus items (or specializations) for Thaumaturgy that add bonuses to the total shift effect of a spell and the control rolls for a spell keep their bonuses when spells of that type are cast with evocation's methods and speed?
Say you have a necromancer with a focus item to add +2 to his Great Lore for zombie-raising rituals (meaning he can at a moment's notice set up a 6-shift complexity ritual) and another item to boost his control rolls by +1 for casting the spell.
If he then picks up Kemmlerian Necromancy, can he use the bonus from those focus items with his Good Conviction and Great Discipline to help him cast a 5-shift insta-zombie spell? Or would you need separate focus items tied specifically to the Evothaum versions of the spell?
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So, my question is, do the focus items (or specializations) for Thaumaturgy that add bonuses to the total shift effect of a spell and the control rolls for a spell keep their bonuses when spells of that type are cast with evocation's methods and speed?
My answer would be that you are using evocation's methods. You're drawing the effect from thaumaturgy, but all the mechanics are evocation. Thaumatrugic foci give bonuses to complexity and evocation has no complexity. Evocation may have an equivalent to complexity, but it's still not complexity, and doesn't work in the same (or even similar) fashion.
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That kind of blunts the usefulness of Evothaum some, though. To really make the best use of it, you'd likely have to devote a refinement or two to focus items (does Sponsored Magic get specializations?) to bring it up to the effectiveness of your regular Evocations.
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Yeah, that doesn't really bother me for two reasons. Firstly, Sponsored magic is a single element. Evothaum falls under that element. If you have foci that boost your sponsored evocation, it will also boost your evothaum.
Secondly there are significant advantages to evothaum. Multiple maneuvers in a single action, complex transformation (including healing), non-line-of-sight spells. It doesn't need to be quite as powerful as your other evocations.
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So, my question is, if you have a character with a focus item for Thaumaturgic rituals, and a sponsored magic that allows that type of ritual to be cast with Evocation's speed and methoids, does the focus item still contribute to power/complexity or control?
The book doesn't say specifically - at least not that I've found. That leaves three options:
1. It's Thaumaturgy...so thaumaturgical foci apply normally.
2. It's "with Evocation's speed and methods"...so Evocation foci apply if it's an elemental spell and none apply if it's generic thaumaturgy.
3. Balance is what matters*...and spell casters are powerful enough so no foci apply.
Pick the one your group is happy with...or modify to suit. ;)
*This isn't a rules based argument but is still valid if balance is a priority for your group.
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I think it actually does say, though it's not very clearly written. If you parse carefully through the "With Evocation's Methods and Speed" sidebar on YS288 you get that all the term means is that when using the power source in question, you are allowed to use Evocation to generate effects normally restricted to Thaumaturgy. It's still considered Evocation, though, and follows the rules for Evocation (after translating complexity into power); in effect it just expands your ability to rationalize a particular effect as being part of Evocation.
So I'd say that you could certainly make (for example) an "Kemmlerian Necromancy Offensive Power +1" focus and use it to improve your Psychomancy-as-Evocation spells. However, it would only aid the Psychomancy-as-Evocation spells, not the Psychomancy-as-Thaumaturgy spells -- because the former is a facet of the Channeling half of your Sponsored Magic power, whereas the latter is a facet of the Ritual half.
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Personally, if I were running a game, I would likely introduce a house rule allowing thaumaturgy control foci to benefit evothaum control, and evothaum power foci to benefit the calling-up-power portion of a thaumaturgy ritual (which normally does not have foci available to it, and likely wouldn't benefit much from one anyway, but hey, why not). I would not, however, go so far as to allow complexity foci to be used to benefit evothaum's calling-up-power, because those are two entirely separate things.
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I think it actually does say, though it's not very clearly written. If you parse carefully through the "With Evocation's Methods and Speed" sidebar on YS288 you get that all the term means is that when using the power source in question, you are allowed to use Evocation to generate effects normally restricted to Thaumaturgy. It's still considered Evocation, though, and follows the rules for Evocation (after translating complexity into power); in effect it just expands your ability to rationalize a particular effect as being part of Evocation.
So I'd say that you could certainly make (for example) an "Kemmlerian Necromancy Offensive Power +1" focus and use it to improve your Psychomancy-as-Evocation spells. However, it would only aid the Psychomancy-as-Evocation spells, not the Psychomancy-as-Thaumaturgy spells -- because the former is a facet of the Channeling half of your Sponsored Magic power, whereas the latter is a facet of the Ritual half.
I tend to agree with most of this assessment. The key word in "With Evocation's Method and Speed" is Method. The effect might be a thaum effect but its an evocation in execution and that's what your foci respond to. YS mentions in the side bar about this in a comment about creative rationalisation, in that to utilise evocation effects you have to rationalise how it is created. What the Sponsor provides is the rationalisation for a thaum effect to be on the fly. Its still classed as evocation, as mentioned with the wording. Regardless you're not going to be able to pull up as powerful spell as you could with thaum, due to complexity.
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There really isn't a right answer here, people. The relevant rules were not written with sufficient rigor.
That being said, I think it's better to use thaumaturgy foci for evothaum than evocation foci. Because (non-Crafting) thaumaturgy foci could use a boost while evocation ones should not be given one.
Also, I GM a game where we let evocation foci boost evothaum. It contains a character whose evothaum is much better than her thaum. It's weird, questionably balanced, and I don't like the way it works. I kinda regret that interpretation now, though not enough to change the rules.