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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Pbartender on May 10, 2012, 01:13:25 PM
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How do you guys handle this?
It would seem most appropriate to start with a Maneuver and then tag the resulting aspect. But... If the character wants to STAY behind the cover and continue getting the bonus, he either has to A) spend a Fate Point every round, or B) spend his action on a new Maneuver.
The other way, I suppose, would be to use the character's Stealth skill to block all attacks against him. But again, the character would be constantly using all his actions to block.
Is there a good way to allow someone to, for example, shoot at an enemy from around a corner and still gain some benefit from hiding behind that corner?
Thoughts?
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Declare "Cover" with an Alertness Roll and tag it with athletics defense.
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Pbartender, your right if you need to use the aspect on every defense roll but since your allowed to tag the aspect after your own roll you probably won't need to use it every time. I doubt anyone would argue that cover isn't a sticky aspect.
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I would use the maneuver/declaration (something like "I declare that the chest-high wall provides Ample Cover"), then use that tag to boost a Blocking action against being attacked with long-range attacks.
That or maybe Invoke for the effect that people just can't hit you from a distance.
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That's the Aspect way to handle it.
You can also (either in concert with or instead of, to your preference) say something like being in cover gives a +1 defense vs. ranged, but a -1 defense against melee attacks. If cover and movement is important to your game, you may be better served by adding a small bit of complexity to the rules like that.
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How do you guys handle this?
It would seem most appropriate to start with a Maneuver and then tag the resulting aspect. But... If the character wants to STAY behind the cover and continue getting the bonus, he either has to A) spend a Fate Point every round, or B) spend his action on a new Maneuver.
The other way, I suppose, would be to use the character's Stealth skill to block all attacks against him. But again, the character would be constantly using all his actions to block.
Is there a good way to allow someone to, for example, shoot at an enemy from around a corner and still gain some benefit from hiding behind that corner?
Thoughts?
You are absolutely correct about the RAW approach to taking cover, if you apply it as an Aspect to yourself you can only use it for free once and thereafter you have to use Fate points, otherwise you can use a Skill to set up a Block.
There is a purpose for this, however. Aspects and Fate points are heavily concerned with narrative and keeping things interesting in a scene. By only allowing one free tag of a self applied Aspect, it keeps the scene interesting by incentivizing the player to change the scene with new Aspects rather than letting them set and forget them.
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You can also (either in concert with or instead of, to your preference) say something like being in cover gives a +1 defense vs. ranged, but a -1 defense against melee attacks. If cover and movement is important to your game, you may be better served by adding a small bit of complexity to the rules like that.
In effect making it a supplemental action to gain a +1 to your defensive roll by taking cover. I kind of like that.
Also... What about using a block action, but spending extra shifts to make the black last longer? Say, for example, a character uses his Stealth skill to hide behind cover in order to block all enemy ranged attacks. He rolls a 7 for the block, but reduces the block by 2 to 5 in order to make the block last 2 extra exchanges. Would that be fair?
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I think the answer depends on the cover taken.
Is the cover a tree? a table? or around the corner of a brick building? Some of these should be handled differently.
Did the character shoot over the edge of a building and take a supplemental action to lay back out of sight?
Mayb ethe cover is relatively weak or thin.
Maybe it is more like darkness, or fog, or a sandstorm.
Maybe the character is around a building corner, on a humid foggy night, with enough cloud cover to make it very dark also.
Aspects are likely hte best, but in some circumstances I'd simply rule: You are safe from conventional means of attack. (guns/ ranged weapons, thrown weapons from most creatures, etc.)
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Also... What about using a block action, but spending extra shifts to make the black last longer? Say, for example, a character uses his Stealth skill to hide behind cover in order to block all enemy ranged attacks. He rolls a 7 for the block, but reduces the block by 2 to 5 in order to make the block last 2 extra exchanges. Would that be fair?
I don't think that makes any sense for a non-evocation block. If you overturn a table and crouch behind it, the table isn't going to suddenly not be there anymore 20 seconds later if you didn't put a little extra effort into flipping it in the first place. The table, and your cover, will keep protecting you until either you move or it's destroyed.
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I don't think that makes any sense for a non-evocation block. If you overturn a table and crouch behind it, the table isn't going to suddenly not be there anymore 20 seconds later if you didn't put a little extra effort into flipping it in the first place. The table, and your cover, will keep protecting you until either you move or it's destroyed.
Right... You see, that's the conceptual trouble I was having with using Aspects for cover...
You flip a table over and hide behind it. It helps you for a few moments, and then suddenly it stops being useful unless you spend a Fate Point or take additional action.
In end, I can always rule that cover gives a benefit... Either a bonus to defense or as impromptu armor. I just couldn't find any actual rules for it, and was wondering if there were any. Or, in their absence, if there were existing rules that could be easily adapted (evocation blocks/shields/armor/barriers seemed a good place to start).
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Another, more solid way of handling it would be to invoke the aspect for effect. This could then simply prevent the attacker from attacking or create a block (either at the GM's discretion) that would remain until the aspect was no longer applicable (I.E. the PC does something that would invalidate the aspect or the enemy counter-maneuvers). I think that's the way I would handle it.
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Another, more solid way of handling it would be to invoke the aspect for effect. This could then simply prevent the attacker from attacking or create a block (either at the GM's discretion) that would remain until the aspect was no longer applicable (I.E. the PC does something that would invalidate the aspect or the enemy counter-maneuvers).
I wasn't certain Invoking for Effect worked that way... but it does give me an idea.
I was looking at the bonus from cover as something that should always be there. But, narratively speaking, the bonus only really needs to be there when it needs to be there (Ooooh... Zen Gaming). In other words, you don't need that +2 bonus to defense if the enemy misses. Only does good if the enemy hits (at the very least, you're reducing the stress you take by 2 points).
Also, a "Cover" aspect doesn't have to be invoked to the benefit of the player... It could compel the enemy instead!
So, here's what I'm looking at...
Step 1: Maneuver to generate a "defensive" temporary aspect on yourself (It doesn't even have to be cover-based, though that's our current example). Presuming you roll well enough, it's sticky and hangs around until someone takes a counter-maneuver to get rid of it.
Step 2: Wait until an enemy attack hits (we'd be a little lenient with the "must be used immediately" part of a free tag), then use your free tag to boost your defense or compel the enemy into missing.
Step 3: Use Fate Points to gain additional benefits throughout the scene, or re-maneuver to get another free tag.
I think that would pretty well to emulate the guy who's crouching behind cover, but occasionally popping out to take shots... As opposed to someone who completely under cover and staying there.
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Step 1: Maneuver to generate a "defensive" temporary aspect on yourself (It doesn't even have to be cover-based, though that's our current example). Presuming you roll well enough, it's sticky and hangs around until someone takes a counter-maneuver to get rid of it.
Step 2: Wait until an enemy attack hits (we'd be a little lenient with the "must be used immediately" part of a free tag), then use your free tag to boost your defense or compel the enemy into missing.
Step 3: Use Fate Points to gain additional benefits throughout the scene, or re-maneuver to get another free tag.
I think that would pretty well to emulate the guy who's crouching behind cover, but occasionally popping out to take shots... As opposed to someone who completely under cover and staying there.
Ahh, now you're playing with FATE! ;D
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That sort of thing is normally a maneuver. But if you wanted to represent it as a block, you might be able to talk your GM into making it last multiple exchanges.
YS says that blocks typically last until your next action, but I don't think it ever actually forbids blocks from lasting longer.
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It depends on how the block is implemented, I would think. If a block against getting through a doorway is you standing there with a sword and shield bellowing "None shall pass!" then yeah, if you go to do something else, the block goes away. But if the block is a table you nailed over the doorway, it only makes sense that it would persist while you go to do something else.
Though with the Cover thing, it gets a little tricky. Is the block your action of getting behind the upturned table--where one can argue that popping up to shoot constitutes the "do something else" that removes the block--or is it the upturning of the table--meaning it persists even as you pop up to shoot?
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Though with the Cover thing, it gets a little tricky. Is the block your action of getting behind the upturned table--where one can argue that popping up to shoot constitutes the "do something else" that removes the block--or is it the upturning of the table--meaning it persists even as you pop up to shoot?
That's where I was getting hung up too... Until I took a different point of view and decided that invoking/compelling the aspect constitutes that particular bit of luck when the shot hits the cover, or you just happen to duck down behind the cover at the right time.
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In effect making it a supplemental action to gain a +1 to your defensive roll by taking cover. I kind of like that.
Thanks. :)
Until I took a different point of view and decided that invoking/compelling the aspect constitutes that particular bit of luck when the shot hits the cover, or you just happen to duck down behind the cover at the right time.
But I saw this here and wanted to riff on this a bit, too. You could simply assume that some measure of cover is the default, thus leaving truly hard cover or full concealment to Aspects. I know I don't map out my zones with the level of detail of, say, a Gears of War map. If you look at combat from a POV that assumes that "normal" cover is rolled up into your standard Athletics defense, then there's not really a problem with the by-the-book maneuvers and blocks.
But then I came back to the "supplemental action to take cover" idea, and I think I might try something like this:
Taking Cover:
Taking cover is a supplemental action. Like any supplemental action, it imposes a -1 penalty on your primary action for the exchange*. In return, you gain a +1 bonus to all defense rolls until your next action. The GM may require the presence of an appropriate Aspect before you can take cover**.
* Because you're popping up quickly to return fire instead of taking measured shots. Or because knife-fighting over a waist-high wall is cumbersome. Or because you're crouched in an awkward position while trying to dig out that potion.
** I don't think it'd be necessary to invoke an appropriate Aspect - after all, at that point you're back to using the normal rules. But I'd let you take cover as long as an Aspect was simply on the scene, like "Dark Shadows" or "Waist-High Walls" or "Toppled Bookshelves".
Making this a supplemental action stops a player from using their supplemental action to move, which makes sense to me. One precludes the other nicely without requiring special cases. Given equal skill levels, it does skew combat towards a stalemate, since incoming attacks will hit less often while outgoing attacks... will still hit less often. Hmm.
Writing that made me realize I'll probably just stick with the "normal combat assumes a normal amount of cover" and not worry about it. :) But it's there to pick apart if it could help your own games.
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Taking Cover:
Taking cover is a supplemental action. Like any supplemental action, it imposes a -1 penalty on your primary action for the exchange*. In return, you gain a +1 bonus to all defense rolls until your next action. The GM may require the presence of an appropriate Aspect before you can take cover**.
* Because you're popping up quickly to return fire instead of taking measured shots. Or because knife-fighting over a waist-high wall is cumbersome. Or because you're crouched in an awkward position while trying to dig out that potion.
** I don't think it'd be necessary to invoke an appropriate Aspect - after all, at that point you're back to using the normal rules. But I'd let you take cover as long as an Aspect was simply on the scene, like "Dark Shadows" or "Waist-High Walls" or "Toppled Bookshelves".
That's more or less what I was thinking of...
Making this a supplemental action stops a player from using their supplemental action to move, which makes sense to me. One precludes the other nicely without requiring special cases. Given equal skill levels, it does skew combat towards a stalemate, since incoming attacks will hit less often while outgoing attacks... will still hit less often. Hmm.
Of course, this okay. The enemy could feasibly out-maneuver him and tag for effect to eliminate or negate the aspect that grants cover.
Plus, it'd be easy enough to add a stunt that negates the penalty... There's already stunts and powers that allow that for other supplemental actions.
Either way, I think we've got lots of different ways to handle it now.
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I wasn't certain Invoking for Effect worked that way... but it does give me an idea.
Invoking for effect works any which way the GM (and the table) wants it to. When you invoke for effect you're creating a bit of narrative. It's up to the table as to how that narrative is best represented mechanically and even at the same table there's no one way that will always work best.
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How do you guys handle this?
How do you want to handle it? An invoked aspect* makes for a good temporary defense boost. The same aspect might compel choosing a different target or be invoked to effect a miss. A block may be more appropriate in static situations. For more tactical games you may even want difficulty modifiers. Using it as barrier or armor may also be appropriate. Which best fits the situation your group is building?
*Aspects may be the result of declaration, maneuver, scene, or perhaps even consequence. How the aspect is created is often less important than how it's used.
Is there a good way to allow someone to, for example, shoot at an enemy from around a corner and still gain some benefit from hiding behind that corner?
This is fairly easy for speed based characters, they can move across zones and still fire. For others it may be modeled as a block - though it would take an action to set up.
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I don't think that makes any sense for a non-evocation block. If you overturn a table and crouch behind it, the table isn't going to suddenly not be there anymore 20 seconds later if you didn't put a little extra effort into flipping it in the first place. The table, and your cover, will keep protecting you until either you move or it's destroyed.
That's just because in real life God has an unlimited supply of fate points.