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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Mr. Death on April 30, 2012, 04:56:50 PM
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So I was looking over the feeding dependency write up in the books, and have a question I'd like clarified.
It says that if you make the discipline roll, you get to wipe the hunger track clean, then it says if you fail the roll, you take stress to the track equal to the difference in roll.
Maybe I'm just being dense here, but on the first bit, does that include stress that's already on the track? For example, if a vampire fails a roll in one scene and takes 2 hunger stress, then makes the roll in the next, does it just not take the stress for that scene, or is the track totally wiped clean of the pre-existing stress?
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So I was looking over the feeding dependency write up in the books, and have a question I'd like clarified.
It says that if you make the discipline roll, you get to wipe the hunger track clean, then it says if you fail the roll, you take stress to the track equal to the difference in roll.
Maybe I'm just being dense here, but on the first bit, does that include stress that's already on the track? For example, if a vampire fails a roll in one scene and takes 2 hunger stress, then makes the roll in the next, does it just not take the stress for that scene, or is the track totally wiped clean of the pre-existing stress?
The second.
The Stress track is wiped clean of all stress.
That's how i read it. And i honestly don't know how to read it differently.
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I concur. If you’re thinking “but that means it’s practically impossible for the WCV to actually lose their shit” I also agree. My group has been playing for over a year now and I’ve yet to see my WCV player actually be inconvenienced by it.
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If you're playing a vampire exploring a darker path, remember that the Hunger track is also cleared whenever you kill by feeding.
As to the rarity of hunger stress actually becoming an issue, remember that most vampires have refresh spent on affected powers substantially in excess of their Discipline.
PCs with peak discipline, FPs to burn, and maybe even a stunt dedicated to Hunger 'defense' are an exception to the norm.
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Funnily enough there is nothing stopping a White Court Vampire doing weights for a scene (only using inhuman Strength) to recover hunger stress, it is actually more effective than feeding.
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Funnily enough there is nothing stopping a White Court Vampire doing weights for a scene (only using inhuman Strength) to recover hunger stress, it is actually more effective than feeding.
Yeah, that's actually why I asked the question. It just seems off that way.
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It seems off because it is off. The writing on Feeding Dependency is not great.
That's not the only problem with it, by the way. It's rather unclear how the power-losing effect of Feeding Dependency works.
It's on my list of things to rewrite.
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Funnily enough there is nothing stopping a White Court Vampire doing weights for a scene (only using inhuman Strength) to recover hunger stress, it is actually more effective than feeding.
Well, if a player did that, then i would simply judge that to not be "heavily exerted", not make him roll for hunger stress at all, and thereby rob him of the chance to cheat. *g*
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It's rather unclear how the power-losing effect of Feeding Dependency works.
See, I thought losing the powers was clear enough: You buy off stress with them to avoid being Taken Out, a la consequences.
That said, there's some precedent in the novels for someone apparently relieving themselves of the hunger through "heavy exertion," if you take Harry and Susan's "solution" into account. But they're probably a special case.
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Well, if a player did that, then i would simply judge that to not be "heavily exerted", not make him roll for hunger stress at all, and thereby rob him of the chance to cheat. *g*
Ok so the WCV has to lift cars during his exercise to be certain no one thinks he isn't exerting himself (if the worlds strongest man can do it).
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See, I thought losing the powers was clear enough: You buy off stress with them to avoid being Taken Out, a la consequences.
That said, there's some precedent in the novels for someone apparently relieving themselves of the hunger through "heavy exertion," if you take Harry and Susan's "solution" into account. But they're probably a special case.
Nah, sex is thematically appropriate to vampires in most other genres I'd allow it as exertion. Blood and sex are pretty intertwined to most fiction about vampires. They are sensual critters. RCV seem to be. WCV definitely are. BCV likely not, but i wouldn't disallow one to sate it's urges that way. Creepy as it sounds...
If Toe Moss can feed by styling hair...well, there is a lot of leeway for this sort of thing. At present it'll vary from game to game I bet.
Ok so the WCV has to lift cars during his exercise to be certain no one thinks he isn't exerting himself (if the worlds strongest man can do it).
I'd let that go so long as the player was willing to roleplay the fact that it was something they had to do as urgently as if they needed drugs, sex, food, or feeding. The goals seems to be to exert themselves to allow them a chance to overtly assert their sel control (discipline) by giving themself something hard to do and somethign else to concentrate on.
I however would keep playing up the fact through compels taht the demon wanted real food.
I also agree feeding dependency could use some clarification.
I just think that if Evil hat reads these threads (or have mods reporting ideas like this) that I hope they release a section in the next supplement addressing rules revisions or errata to old powers/rules/etc.
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Some people think that any hunger stress costs you powers, regardless of whether your stress track can absorb it. And that reading is supported by the rules about as well as yours. Maybe better.
Regardless, the mechanic in question here is silly. It's not terribly balanced, it makes no sense thematically, and it encourages people to act in ways that you don't want.
The whole weight-lifting example is kinda silly, but it's what the rules encourage you to do.
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One way to look at it, I suppose, is that the Hunger stress is the kind of stress you can shake off, but the Discipline roll means a character has to put effort into shaking it off (while mental, physical, or social stress just kind of unwinds on its own), while hunger consequences are the things that really require that you feed to get rid of them.
So a hunger stress is when the dessert tray comes by and looks really good, but you're full and can wave it off with some willpower, but a hunger consequence (or loss of power) is when you haven't eaten a thing for three days and someone hands you a BLT.
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Ok so the WCV has to lift cars during his exercise to be certain no one thinks he isn't exerting himself (if the worlds strongest man can do it).
Actually, if the vamp lifts cars just for the heck of it (i.e. to get a free regen roll), then he doesnt exert himself either... imho
The reasoning behind this statement being the same as how to decide when to require a skill-roll for any given task.
If there is no interesting outcome, then there is no roll.
A Vamp simply doing weights, or lifting cars for no reason other than gaining a "free" regen roll is totally boring, not to mention illogical, and therefore there is no roll.
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Well, it says you don't roll if there's no interesting result to failure. A WCV doing some car-pressing has at least two interesting opportunities for failure: Make him roll Might or Endurance against being injured (maybe he can't lift the car all the way), and there's always the chance he'll fail his feeding roll (particularly if he has anything to compel).
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Actually, if the vamp lifts cars just for the heck of it (i.e. to get a free regen roll), then he doesnt exert himself either... imho
The reasoning behind this statement being the same as how to decide when to require a skill-roll for any given task.
If there is no interesting outcome, then there is no roll.
A Vamp simply doing weights, or lifting cars for no reason other than gaining a "free" regen roll is totally boring, not to mention illogical, and therefore there is no roll.
Ok well you also have the option of putting the extra stress in to minor or moderate physical consequences which will be healed by the next scene due to inhuman recovery.
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So we can't even agree on what it means to heavily exert your affected powers. Add another count of vagueness to the power's lengthy list of sins.
I'll post a rewrite later today.
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So we can't even agree on what it means to heavily exert your affected powers. Add another count of vagueness to the power's lengthy list of sins.
I'll post a rewrite later today.
I still say if done right, sex totally counts.
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I'd say the exertion would be something that required your powers to do/survive.
Lifting something that needs 3 Might wouldn't count if your base Might was already 3, for example.
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I'd say the exertion would be something that required your powers to do/survive.
Lifting something that needs 3 Might wouldn't count if your base Might was already 3, for example.
I'll agree with a caveat.
I think anything that is thematically appropriate to the story could work. I.E. Susan and Harry I'd allow in any game I ran.
Going and fighting monsters you can't feed on to let out aggression - I'd allow.
Etc. If it made the story better I'd allow a lot. Very likely not lifting weights.
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I reread the power, and I can see no sensible reason to conclude that you need to be involved in something important in order to trigger a feeding roll.
Running in circles at super speed until you collapse is heavy exertion. There's no question about that. Therefore it works mechanically, so far as I can see, as a method to cause a hunger roll.
Which is silly, so most people won't allow it.
When most people break or selectively interpret a rule in order to avoid something silly, the rule is bad.
New, improved Feeding Dependency:
FEEDING DEPENDENCY [+varies]
Description: Some or all of your powers come from eating something. Probably something weird.
Skills Affected: Discipline.
Effects:
Restricted Powers. When you take this power, you must select at least one other power that you possess. You must also choose a thing and an amount of that thing that you must consume in order to use those powers. Which powers and foods may be selected with this power is a matter of the GM's discretion. This power provides a variable Refresh rebate depending on how much power is selected with it. If 0-3 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +0. If 4-6 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +1. If 7-9 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +2. If 10-12 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +3. And so on. The above values assume that the food is rare or morally objectionable, like significant amounts of human blood or huge piles of cash. If the food is acquired easily and without guilt, or only with extreme measures, add or subtract an appropriate amount from the Refresh total before calculating the rebate.
Hunger Is Stressful. You have an extra stress track called hunger. Its length is determined by your Discipline skill. Stress and consequences taken to this track never heal unless you feed.
Feeding. You are capable of consuming whatever your food is. Furthermore, when you do so, you may clear your hunger track, remove any hunger consequences that you possess, and recover any powers that you lost to your hunger. If you consume an insufficient amount of your food, you may receive partial benefits at the GM's discretion.
Limited Reserves. At the end of any scene in which you use one or more of your restricted powers, you must roll your Discipline skill against a number equal to the combined Refresh value of the restricted powers that you used. If you fail this roll, you take an amount of hunger stress equal to the amount that you failed by. If you are taken out in this way you generally die, get incapacitated, or go mad with hunger, but other fates are also possible depending on the character and the situation. You may absorb this stress by taking consequences or by sacrificing restricted powers at a rate of 1 Refresh of power lost per point of stress negated.
This was a pretty major rewrite. In addition to covering the issues mentioned here, I wanted to remove the incentive to take only 2 Refresh under Feeding Dependency while the rest of your powers are unrestricted because that's lame and the rules should not encourage it. And I wanted Feeding Dependency to be equally usable for characters who eat sunlight and characters who eat the hearts of stars.
I'm not satisfied with this. I haven't worked out what an appropriate amount to add or subtract for a given food would be. And I haven't done any testing, not even in simulation.
So call this a first draft. Help finishing it would be appreciated, as would other comments and criticism.
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I would not have a +0 option for feeding dependency, that's just overly punitive.
Instead, I'd mandate at least 2 refresh of powers be attached to it, and start the bonus at +1.
I also feel that the best method for modifying the value of Feeding Dependency based on the nature of the 'food' should affect the scaling, rather the absolute value, increasing or decreasing the amount of refresh that need be attached in order to gain a greater rebate.
A 2/5/8/11 scale should be assumed to apply to eating humans or other sapient creatures in a manner that does not necessarily kill them (RCV, WCV), but might reasonably include such
A 2/4/6/8 scale, then, would apply to feeding that mandates killing (still-beating hearts, dying breath, etc), or equally objectionable or problematic foodstuffs
A 2/6/10/14 scale, on the other hand, would apply to feeding where the primary cost is little more than enforced downtime (sunlight, enormous quantities of common food); this version could also be used to model powers that are simply exceptionally tiring to use, forcing the character to spend one or more scenes resting after any major exertion.
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A 2-point Feeding Dependency just isn't problematic enough to give a rebate for. A dude with Good Discipline has a 5/27 chance of taking any stress if he uses his powers. He has no chance of being taken out. He'll hardly ever need to feed.
If his Discipline is Superb, instead, he'll only have a 1/81 chance of taking stress. And that 1/81 chance has to happen five times in order to inconvenience him at all.
That's not worth a rebate.
But I agree that +0 Feeding Dependency is kind of mean. Any suggestions for making it less so?
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Perhaps if you packaged it with some minor benefits for feeding.
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I see two possible alternatives:
A) Raise the minimum refresh attached to Feeding Dependency, shifting the further rebates back accordingly
B) Change the formula by which the attack is generated, which could be as simple as placing a minimum value on the attack (I dislike this option, as I feel it would likely unduly punish characters in low-refresh, skill-poor games as compared to high-refresh, skill-rich)
@locnil
the benefits from feeding, aside from the clearing of Hunger stress and consequences, are generally spelled out in an accompanying power such as Blood Drinker or Emotional Vampire
moving those bonuses to Feeding Dependency removes the option to have characters who can feed in such a manner, and gain significant benefits from doing so, but who do not need to do so for the reasons represented by Feeding Dependency
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The templates that involve feeding dependency (except for red court initiate) all have enough refresh under feeding dependency for it not to matter, so if you follow the templates the only ones disadvantaged are the red court young-lings. As for custom character well I have to admit if I was going to get a zero bonus from feeding dependency I would just not take it, which could lead me to build more PC's who can feed but don't need too (as the feeding powers are awesome).
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It seems off because it is off. The writing on Feeding Dependency is not great.
That's not the only problem with it, by the way. It's rather unclear how the power-losing effect of Feeding Dependency works.
It's on my list of things to rewrite.
This. Though I'd go as far as to say that Feeding Dependency is badly designed.
I think your proposed changes are heading in the right direction; the single key bit being that hunger effects only recover through feeding. This is almost enough to make the power work on its own, though I favor going further.
Here's an idea to toy with:
Feeding Dependency [+1]
Description: You gain some of your supernatural abilities by feeding on mortal blood (page 188), emotions (page 189), or something else (in the case of ghouls, massive quantities of meat), defined when acquiring this power. If you take this ability, it “attaches” to most if not all of your supernatural powers except for those from this category (at least 2 points’ worth).
Skills Affected: Discipline.
Effects:
Hunger Is Stressful. You have an additional stress track called hunger. The length of the track works like those of other stress tracks from Endurance, Conviction, etc., only using Discipline as the base skill. Unlike other stress tracks, you may not clear this out at the end of a scene (see below). Note that because your hunger stress track will be adjusted frequently, it may prove useful to use tokens to represent lost hunger stress boxes rather than marking and erasing on your sheet.
Limited Reserves. At the end of each exchange in which you have exerted your affected powers, you take one hunger stress. If you have no available boxes on your hunger stress track when you are required to take a hunger stress, then you clear your hunger stress track and take a hunger consequence instead. A hunger consequences are treated in every way as a normal physical or mental consequence (your choice) except that it can only be recovered from by feeding as described below.
Feeding. Any time you inflict stress appropriate to your feeding preference, you may clear hunger stress up to the stress you inflicted; additionally if you inflict a consequence, you immediately recover a Hunger consequence of the same severity. Killing through feeding allows you to recover all hunger consequences, and may entitle you to additional benefits due to powers such as Blood Drinker or Emotional Vampire. Alternatively, you may opt out of a scene to feed, in which case you may make a feeding attempt via a Declaration "miniscene" (rolling as appropriate to determine the success of the miniscene).
Thoughts: to a large extent, the penalty for this version is independent of the number of linked powers or strength of those powers. Because of this, a flat +1 refresh seems reasonable. Characters with many linked powers get more benefit per stress, but then again such characters have spent refresh for that capability. Discipline is important regardless of refresh level, and no randomness (or dice rolls at all) are part of this proposal.
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That is a workable rewrite. But it sacrifices my favourite thing about the canon Feeding Dependency: the way that it encourages you to use only a fraction of your affected Powers.
Having a White Court Vampire hold back his powers to conserve "gas" is narratively appropriate, and making it mechanically appropriate as well would be great.
Plus, I'd like Feeding Dependency not to be limited to foods that one obtains by hurting people. Your rewrite works fine for blood drinkers and emotion eaters, but not for the money-eating monster that I've been wanting to write up.
So I think I'll keep going on the track that I'm on. Your rewrite isn't ambitious enough for my taste, basically.
Alterations I'm considering:
-Removing the Hunger track. You take consequences or you lose powers, you can't just absorb Hunger. This would make Feeding Dependency nasty enough that attaching it to 2 Refresh of Powers might be reasonable.
-Making skills other than Discipline legal for use with Feeding Dependency,
-Flatly requiring people to take enough Refresh worth of Powers to get a rebate. I'd rather not do this unless I have to, but I suspect I'll have to.
Does that first idea sound workable?
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I would be extremely wary of requiring that all hunger stress be absorbed by way of consequences or lost powers, though it would be mitigated if there were readily accessible consequence slots earmarked for the purpose. (an additional minor consequence slot wherever [given skill] would normally provide an additional stress box?)
One substantial issue with Becq's proposed edit:
Given the steady rate of accumulating stress, and the relatively simple and routine availability of clearing that stress, I can't really see a character going more than one or two scenes carrying stress, and certainly not going so long as to require even a mild consequence except in extreme cases. And that's all without even having to 'feed' by more than a single roll on any given victim, let alone indulge heavily enough to risk killing.
I don't see an immediate fix for this that wouldn't render Thomas wholly impossible.
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@locnil
the benefits from feeding, aside from the clearing of Hunger stress and consequences, are generally spelled out in an accompanying power such as Blood Drinker or Emotional Vampire
moving those bonuses to Feeding Dependency removes the option to have characters who can feed in such a manner, and gain significant benefits from doing so, but who do not need to do so for the reasons represented by Feeding Dependency
I know that. I was suggesting that those powers be folded into Feeding Depedency, though I suppose it still wouldn't work for those who have to feed but don't gain any benefit, or who would benefit but don't need to.
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Limited Reserves. At the end of each exchange in which you have exerted your affected powers, you take one hunger stress. If you have no available boxes on your hunger stress track when you are required to take a hunger stress, then you clear your hunger stress track and take a hunger consequence instead. A hunger consequences are treated in every way as a normal physical or mental consequence (your choice) except that it can only be recovered from by feeding as described below.
This is actually how I treat the WCV in my group with a minor change. Every time she uses a power in a fight afterwards she takes a number of stress equaled to the amount of powers she used. For example, if she used inhuman strength she takes one stress but if she used both inhuman speed and strength she takes two stress. I let her deny herself access to one of her powers temporarily in order to stop herself from taking one stress and of course if the stress goes over her track she can take consequences. I do compel her quite a bit whenever her hunger track is full (and let her hunger become an aspect that enemies can tag) but usually she hates taking consequences and goes off for a "miniscene" and comes back fully replenished.
I guess looking back my system wouldn't necessarily work on a RCI or other feeding dependency characters. :-\
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That is a workable rewrite. But it sacrifices my favourite thing about the canon Feeding Dependency: the way that it encourages you to use only a fraction of your affected Powers.
Having a White Court Vampire hold back his powers to conserve "gas" is narratively appropriate, and making it mechanically appropriate as well would be great.
Fair enough. Here's a mod that might help (underlined section):
Limited Reserves. At the end of each exchange in which you have exerted your affected powers, you take one hunger stress. If the total refresh of powers you used exceeds the total length of your hunger stress track, take two hunger stress instead (plus an additional stress for each multiple passed thereafter after). If you have no available boxes on your hunger stress track when you are required to take a hunger stress, then you clear your hunger stress track and take a hunger consequence instead. A hunger consequences are treated in every way as a normal physical or mental consequence (your choice) except that it can only be recovered from by feeding as described below.
I'm not entirely comfortable with using the length of the stress track is a bit odd; I decided to word it that way because using Discipline instead causes too much emphasis on skill value.
By the numbers, this means that a character with 0 discipline takes a stress for every 2 refresh used per exchange, a character with 1-3 discipline can use 4-6 refresh worth of powers for 2 stress, and a character with 4-5 discipline can use 4 refresh for 1 stress, upt to 8 for 2 stress, and so on.
Plus, I'd like Feeding Dependency not to be limited to foods that one obtains by hurting people. Your rewrite works fine for blood drinkers and emotion eaters, but not for the money-eating monster that I've been wanting to write up.
Feeding dependency is designed for life-sucking monsters, true, and I built it based on that concept. While the DFRPG mechanics don't state it, the novels make it clear that the various vampires (and ghouls) can't effectively feed except on human life. Obviously, you could alter the power for more generic use, though with money as generic as it is in Fate, I'm not sure how to balance it.
One substantial issue with Becq's proposed edit:
Given the steady rate of accumulating stress, and the relatively simple and routine availability of clearing that stress, I can't really see a character going more than one or two scenes carrying stress, and certainly not going so long as to require even a mild consequence except in extreme cases. And that's all without even having to 'feed' by more than a single roll on any given victim, let alone indulge heavily enough to risk killing.
Does the rewrite improve the outlook any? Based on Thomas' stats, he would burn a stress per exchange using one power, or two per exchange at full power. Two exchanges at full power (or four at minimal) would generate the first consequence.
Options to tweak this:
1) The hunger stress track doesn't clear when you take a hunger consequence. (This seems like too much to me.)
2) Adjust the length of the track up or down. One solid option would be to allow for a stunt that adds to the stress track length.
3) Make the consequences harder to heal: each consequence inflicted allows the recovery of a lesser hunger consequence. So a mild consequenece requires inflicting a moderate to heal, and so on. (I had considered this while writing it, but decided to go with the lesser form.)
4) Instead of consequences, represent accumulated hunger by aspects. They would still require feeding to get rid of, but wouldn't tie up a consequence slot. Make it easier to generate the aspects in the first place (possibly option 1).
5) Instead of consequences, use 'hunger debt'. The debt could be used to compel a power to be unavailable, or to 'encourage' the need to feed. Same as #4 in terms of increasing generation rate.
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I would be extremely wary of requiring that all hunger stress be absorbed by way of consequences or lost powers, though it would be mitigated if there were readily accessible consequence slots earmarked for the purpose. (an additional minor consequence slot wherever [given skill] would normally provide an additional stress box?)
Any particular reason for your wariness?
Because I've been thinking about this, and I think that this is as good an idea as I'm going to have.
Rewrite seems interesting, but I'd still rather not use it.
First, because it's another thing to track each exchange.
And second, because its granularity is fairly low. You either take one stress or two.
I really don't think that anything less complex than what I have so far is going to work for me. I've got expectations for this power.
PS: What leads you to believe that ghouls need to eat human lives? I don't recall any reason that they can't just munch on steaks like us humans.
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Any particular reason for your wariness?
Most notably, I suppose, would be the ease with which those consequences would interfere with absorbing stress taken from ore conventional sources, which is why I suggested a greater availability of earmarked consequences as a good place to start in addressing that problem.
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Hm, I dunno.
It's good if Feeding Dependency is a major drag, if it interferes meaningfully with your ability to absorb other forms of damage. But there are limits.
I think I'll sleep on it.
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Draft 2, probably better but still not very good:
FEEDING DEPENDENCY [+varies]
Description: Some or all of your powers come from eating something. Probably something weird.
Skills Affected: Discipline.
Effects:
Restricted Powers. When you take this power, you must select at least one other power that you possess. You must also choose a thing and an amount of that thing that you must consume in order to use those powers. Which powers and foods may be selected with this power is a matter of the GM's discretion. This power provides a variable Refresh rebate depending on how much power is selected with it. If 2 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +1. If 6 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +2. If 10 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +3. And so on. The above values assume that the food is rare or morally objectionable, like significant amounts of human blood or huge piles of cash. If the food is acquired easily and without guilt, or only with extreme measures, add or subtract an appropriate amount from the Refresh total used to calculate the rebate. If more Refresh is attached to this power than is required for the rebate received, this power provides a free mild hunger consequence for each additional Refresh.
Feeding. You are capable of consuming whatever your food is. Furthermore, when you do so, you may remove any hunger consequences that you possess and recover any powers that you lost to your hunger. If you consume an insufficient amount of your food, you may receive partial benefits at the GM's discretion.
Limited Reserves. At the end of any scene in which you use one or more of your restricted powers, you must roll your Discipline skill against a number equal to the combined Refresh value of the restricted powers that you used. If you fail this roll, you must take consequences or sacrifice restricted powers with a total Refresh value and/or stress value equal to the amount that you failed by. If you do not or can not, you are taken out. This usually means that you die, get incapacitated, or go mad with hunger, but other fates are also possible depending on the character and the situation.
Adjustments for easy or difficult foods:
-4 A few hours of sunlight, other small downtime requirements
-3 Normal food in unusually large amounts, other stuff that's no real effort
-2 Weird stuff like copper, large amounts of downtime like sleeping for a week straight
-1 Diamonds, people singing about you, other stuff that's impractical but not really difficult
0 Blood, rare radioactive materials, other difficult stuff, massive downtime like spending months in prayer
+1 Vampire blood, other difficult and dangerous stuff
+2 Human sacrifices, other stuff that's a big deal, ridiculous downtime like meditating for a decade
+3 Angel feathers, other stuff that pretty much requires a quest
+4 Planets, other nearly impossible stuff
Feedback wanted quite badly.
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I'm still of a mind that adjusting the rate of scaling is a better approach than adjusting the effective total attached refresh, particularly as the latter could cause the rebate to exceed, let alone match, the investment.
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I don't think it's possible for the rebate to exceed the investment. If I attach 1 Refresh worth of power to my planet-eating dependency, I get to calculate the rebate as though I had invested 5 Refresh. That's how the power is supposed to work, though in retrospect I'm not sure that's clear.
That being said, you have a point. I'm loath to make the power even more complicated, but it might be necessary.
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Tried to adjust the rate of scaling, couldn't come up with anything good.
Made a tiny clarifying edit instead.
I'm planning to toss this onto the list, unless someone convinces me otherwise. Which wouldn't be very hard. I encourage you all to do it if you feel this version could be improved somehow.
"New" version:
FEEDING DEPENDENCY [+varies]
Description: Some or all of your powers come from eating something. Probably something weird.
Skills Affected: Discipline.
Effects:
Restricted Powers. When you take this power, you must select at least one other power that you possess. You must also choose a thing and an amount of that thing that you must consume in order to use those powers. Which powers and foods may be selected with this power is a matter of the GM's discretion. This power provides a variable Refresh rebate depending on how much power is selected with it. If 2 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +1. If 6 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +2. If 10 Refresh is selected, the rebate is +3. And so on. The above values assume that the food is rare or morally objectionable, like significant amounts of human blood or huge piles of cash. If the food is acquired easily and without guilt, or only with extreme measures, add or subtract an appropriate amount from the Refresh total used to calculate the rebate. If more Refresh is attached to this power than is required for the rebate received, this power provides a free mild hunger consequence for each additional Refresh.
Feeding. You are capable of consuming whatever your food is. Furthermore, when you do so, you may remove any hunger consequences that you possess and recover any powers that you lost to your hunger. If you consume an insufficient amount of your food, you may receive partial benefits at the GM's discretion.
Limited Reserves. At the end of any scene in which you use one or more of your restricted powers, you must roll your Discipline skill against a number equal to the combined Refresh value of the restricted powers that you used. If you fail this roll, you must take consequences or sacrifice restricted powers with a total Refresh value and/or stress value equal to the amount that you failed by. If you do not or can not, you are taken out. This usually means that you die, get incapacitated, or go mad with hunger, but other fates are also possible depending on the character and the situation.
Adjustments for easy or difficult foods:
-4 A few hours of sunlight, other small downtime requirements
-3 Normal food in unusually large amounts, other stuff that's no real effort
-2 Weird stuff like copper, large amounts of downtime like sleeping for a week straight
-1 Diamonds, people singing about you, other stuff that's impractical but not really difficult
0 Blood, rare radioactive materials, other difficult stuff, massive downtime like spending months in prayer
+1 Vampire blood, other difficult and dangerous stuff
+2 Human sacrifices, other stuff that's a big deal, ridiculous downtime like meditating for a decade
+3 Angel feathers, other stuff that pretty much requires a quest
+4 Planets, other nearly impossible stuff
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In 'Limited Reserves' I would amend 'or stress value equal to' with 'or greater than' so as to eliminate the possibility of the overly-literal 'you can't make exact change on the consequences from your failed Hunger defense, so you're taken out, even though you could easily overpay'.
(my eventual commentary on this version of the rework may not be limited to the above, but it's late, I'm tired, etc. etc., and that part jumped out at me, so I felt I should point it out before I forget)
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Good point.
Will fix.
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I'm not sure I'm understanding this completely. So I'll build an example using an RCI:
My food is blood, so no modifier to the thresholds. I choose to attach 3 inhuman powers (strength, toughness, speed), which reaches the (unmodified) 6 refresh threshold. So my rebate is +2.
Do I have this right so far? So what does this get me? It looks as though I only need to drink some amount of blood, and this clears all hunger consequences and recovers any powers lost due to hunger.
This strikes me as being too easy, especially given that the rebate is stronger than the RAW version. I also note that I could have opted to use the 2 refresh level instead, which would have given me only a +1 rebate, but would have given me 4 extra hunger milds to play with in exchange for that sacrificed refresh.
A number of the other sample foods also strike me as being easy ways to gain some points. "Large amounts of food", for example. As long as it's attached to 5+ refresh worth of powers, it seems like an invitation to get a free bonus refresh.
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One of the most important elements of this rewrite is that you need to specify the amount of food that you must consume in order to heal. In the case of a Red, it should be enough blood to seriously harm someone.
My examples, in retrospect, are rather bad because they ignore that fact. Will fix.
The "large amounts of food" thing isn't as good as it sounds. You'll need to roll against a Superb attack every time you use your Powers. And you'll have no stress track to take the hit with. So you'll likely take consequences or lose Powers until you next get downtime.
Might still be too good, but it's not as good as it sounds.
You've got a point about the extra consequences. I think I'll cut the number you get in half.
Thanks for the hole-poking.
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Possible example of food abuse:
Wizard:
+1 Dependency on McDonalds attached to:
-3 Evoc
-3 Thaum
-1 Sight
-0 Soulgaze
-0 Wizard's Constitution
-2 Refinement
---
-8 TOTAL
The FD has 9 attached but needs 5, so the wizard gain 2 hunger milds (assuming you get half as many).
Most scenes will require 3-5 refresh worth of powers (evoc+ref or thaum+ref); the character should have discipline 5, which should hold up well. On average, the character will need to burn one of the spare milds every other scene, then buy a couple of bags of extra value meals (super-sized!) every four scenes or so.
The existing Feeding Dependencies deal in death, which carries potentially significant disadvantages -- for example, legal entanglements or vengeful relatives. What's the worst case for McDonalds Dependency? Same thing for a number of others. The "people singing about you" might be one of my favorites, since you can simply have the other players have their character's sing your theme song in battle and you're guaranteed golden...
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Actually that 9 Refresh counts as 6 Refresh because McDonalds is a weak need.
Nonetheless, good point.
I just realized that putting both combat and noncombat effects under the same Dependency is rather unfair.
The idea here is that McDonalds dependency, though a weakness, is a smaller weakness than blood dependency. So you get a rebate, but a smaller one.
The worst case for McDonalds dependency is that you're in the middle of nowhere and McDonalds is not available. So you die or lose Powers or otherwise get messed up.
As for singing, if the other players want to waste their actions/time singing that's enough of an inconvenience for me.
So, any suggestions for improvements?
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Actually that 9 Refresh counts as 6 Refresh because McDonalds is a weak need.
Right. I was adding to the threshold 9>(2+3) rather than subtracting from the value compared to the threshold (9-3)>2. Either way, the result is the same with a difference of 4.
The idea here is that McDonalds dependency, though a weakness, is a smaller weakness than blood dependency. So you get a rebate, but a smaller one.
The worst case for McDonalds dependency is that you're in the middle of nowhere and McDonalds is not available. So you die or lose Powers or otherwise get messed up.
I agree with the idea conceptually. But the existing RAW versions of FD basically require a death to recover from (or a great many scenes spent twiddling your thumbs). That in turn may well generate significant secondary effects -- examples including social ostracization, police manhunts, etc. By comparison, the McDonalds dependency will generally not result in evil clowns hunting you down (though if it does in your game, then I'd be willing to withdraw my complaint), and might instead result in frequent buyer discounts. Heck, given that the effect is built into the character's metabolism, it might not even result in the character gaining weight...
As for singing, if the other players want to waste their actions/time singing that's enough of an inconvenience for me.
Singing costs an action? My kids insist that:
Singin' while your swingin'
Helps you keep your rythm!
As to suggestions, I would suggest that to qualify for a rebate, the dependency should probably involve something that is to a roughly similar level as societally reprehensible as murder, or at least that carry a significant risk of stigma or secondary problems when satisfying them. Dependencies that don't meet this standard might be better modeled via aspects and compels.
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Right. I was adding to the threshold 9>(2+3) rather than subtracting from the value compared to the threshold (9-3)>2. Either way, the result is the same with a difference of 4.
Oh, I see.
I think that that gives a rebate of +2 w/no extra consequences, though.
I agree with the idea conceptually. But the existing RAW versions of FD basically require a death to recover from (or a great many scenes spent twiddling your thumbs).
RAW FD also lets you have a +1 rebate for 2 Refresh worth of Power. This one does not, unless the thing you eat is as problematic as blood is.
If the Power is still too good with easy foods, then I haven't made the effect of easiness on rebates big enough.
Singing costs an action?
As a martial artist, I can tell you that even a friendly sparring match takes way too much breath for singing to be possible.
As to suggestions, I would suggest that to qualify for a rebate, the dependency should probably involve something that is to a roughly similar level as societally reprehensible as murder, or at least that carry a significant risk of stigma or secondary problems when satisfying them. Dependencies that don't meet this standard might be better modeled via aspects and compels.
I don't think that's a good idea.
Some things have no secondary consequences, they're just hard or inconvenient. Like having to eat a million dollars. Or having to meditate for eight years.
Such things should be supported.
As should things which are actually quite easy. They should just give smaller rebates.