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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Mr. Death on March 22, 2012, 08:37:36 PM
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Does the Offhand Weapon Training stunt account for strength powers? If I've got a Supernatural Strength using character who takes the stunt to wield two Weapon:3 swords, do you add 2 to the Weapon value (3/2, rounded up), or 4 (7/2, rounded up)?
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Weapon value usually calculates in Strength powers: Hence the writeup on the loup Garou having a weapon 6 attack.
My answer is: 4 (7/2, rounded up)
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Most people assume that offhand weapon only applies to the weapons base rating for the sake of balance (most stunts usually provide 2 shifts of effect maybe 3 in rare situations). I would recommend going with what ever feels balanced to you.
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Does the Offhand Weapon Training stunt account for strength powers? If I've got a Supernatural Strength using character who takes the stunt to wield two Weapon:3 swords, do you add 2 to the Weapon value (3/2, rounded up), or 4 (7/2, rounded up)?
It's basically the age old question of Stunts interacting with powers. In this case i would vote for non-interaction. Because imho stunts should not benefit powered characters more than unpowered ones. And if you go with option two, that's exactly what would happen.
So go with the first option and add +2. Otherwise you're doubling up on the Strength-Power. Not balanced.
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It's basically the age old question of Stunts interacting with powers. In this case i would vote for non-interaction. Because imho stunts should not benefit powered characters more than unpowered ones. And if you go with option two, that's exactly what would happen.
So go with the first option and add +2. Otherwise you're doubling up on the Strength-Power. Not balanced.
Agreed; further, privileging dual-wielding in this fashion would produce results different from what we expect to see. The Raiths are the only inhumanly strong characters I can think of offhand who prefer two small weapons to one large one, and that's for reasons of concealment and to maximize their inhuman speed. True bruisers carry big beat-sticks, and that's as it should be.
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Personally, I suggest treating Off-Hand Weapon Training as a simple +2 stress.
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I favour a dual-wielding stunt with a split, non-scaling benefit (such as +1 stress, +1 Weapons defense) to avoid both the OP's issue as well as that of the combined effect of two letter openers somehow being significantly more deadly than most pistols, swords, and other personal weaponry.
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I'm with Sancta on that one. If you read Supernatural (or inhuman, etc) Strength it says that it simply increases the stress dealt. Off-hand weapons training adds half of the weapon bonus. They're independent from each other because they effect two different parts (the stunt working on the weapon bonus, and the power adding to the end result).
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I'm with Sancta on that one. If you read Supernatural (or inhuman, etc) Strength it says that it simply increases the stress dealt. Off-hand weapons training adds half of the weapon bonus. They're independent from each other because they effect two different parts (the stunt working on the weapon bonus, and the power adding to the end result).
A valid point. I am inclined to agree if for no reason other than game balance.
I do wish however, when "Our World" lists weapon values for monsters they didn't include bonuses from stunts or strength in the weapon value. It should have been listed or denoted in a fashion to make it clear what was stress inflicted and what the weapon value was.
My example above used the Loup Garou statblock. In said stat block the Loup Garou attacks with a weapon:6.
This is a rresult of Claws - 2 Strength 4. If those are both considered weapon value then I can see how one could easily interpret strength to count as weapon value and therefore grant the bonus.
It will likely vary from table to table, how that stunt is used.
I intend to list varied ways two weapon fighting is executed and why players and GM's alike may be inclined to have strength work on this stunt.
D&D/AD&D- once appropriate meausres are taken or appropriate penalties to attack rolls (accuracy) an additional attack was allowed with full strength and magical bonuses.
D&D3.X/the other d20 systems of that era - same as above (caveat: half the strength bonus of the character was applied to off hand attacks [this is in my opinion what inspired this stunt in DFRPG]), in fact one could even gain an additional off hand attack.
Old World of Darkness suplements- off hand attacks gained full benefit from damage boosts, but suffered accuracy penalties. (or a dice pool penalty)
Many games do not allow multiple attacks at all. Therefore two weapon fighting is flavor rather than mechanical in nature (Mayfair/West end systems (Star Wars/DCHeroes), mechwarrior, Marvel Roleplaying game (circa the 90's).
DFRPG: no multiple attacks, but wizards are very powerful and this stunt helps min/max and attempt to bridge the gap. I could see how people would want two weapon fighters to deal more damage. (perhaps even to interpret the weapon value of stunts and strength to stack)
Game balance wise I am torn honestly. I do believe multiple attacks would work to the detriment of the game. Everyone talks about action economy and I assume this is what they mean. I do see how melee fighters or fist fighters or gunfighters may want an edge (based on character concept and style of course) to get them closer to the damage output of a spellslinger.
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@Tedronai: Not a bad idea.
@Silverblaze: Looking to Our World for rules stuff is rarely a good idea, in my experience.
Let me add something to your list of dual-wielding systems:
Exalted - Using two weapons lets you use the higher defence value of one weapon with the higher accuracy and damage of the other weapon. Furthermore, IIRC, using two weapons raises the maximum number of attacks you can make per round. But given the increasing penalties for multiple attacks, that is of questionable value. Shields count as weapons, and using either a two-handed weapon or an offensive weapon and a shield is generally optimal.
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DFRPG: no multiple attacks, but wizards are very powerful and this stunt helps min/max and attempt to bridge the gap. I could see how people would want two weapon fighters to deal more damage. (perhaps even to interpret the weapon value of stunts and strength to stack)
Game balance wise I am torn honestly. I do believe multiple attacks would work to the detriment of the game. Everyone talks about action economy and I assume this is what they mean. I do see how melee fighters or fist fighters or gunfighters may want an edge (based on character concept and style of course) to get them closer to the damage output of a spellslinger.
Keep in mind that even if we assume that supernatural strength doesn't add to your off-hand weapon damage, a character that has both is still essentially making weapon:9 attacks every exchange with no downside for 5 refresh (plus all of the other benefits of the strength powers). It seems like a decent enough comparison to a wizard's attacks (especially since a wizard's attacks deal stress to the wizard).
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Yes, if all you're after is weapon values, and not accuracy or versatility, then strength+stunt is eminently viable.