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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Silverblaze on March 16, 2012, 03:58:52 PM

Title: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Silverblaze on March 16, 2012, 03:58:52 PM

See Topic. 

Pleae Note: I am not trying to stat up Ghost Rider.

I assume the PS (Penance Stare) could be used more than once on hte same individual if they commited new sins/crimes [as opposed to or in addition to if their core beliefs changed].

Should this be a modified soulgaze or an addition to it, much like enhancements to Incite Emotion.  Also if a character alrady had Soulgaze, would this new version replace it or become an option instead of soulgazing?

I also wonder if it should be a variant of Incite Emotion, since the PS does make people feel remorse for deeds/fear from the hell they'll be facing.

Another thought: the Soulgaze doesn't normally let you read minds etc.  It is not a lie detector.  however to some extent the PS is.  Their sins are laid bare before the Rider.

Continuity Spoiler about Ghost Rider ahead:

(click to show/hide)

Due to varying writers and retcons and strange origin stories Ghost Rider has been shown to see the sins of the people who got Penance Stared.  In some stories it seems he cannot.  The goal is not to stat up Ghost  Rider but a power that could be used by people with a similar line of work or ability.  Therefore, whether or not Ghost Rider sees the sins may be moot, but it may effect the costing of the power.

Other Soulgaze goodness: Should a stunt (or perhaps more appropriately a power) that allowed a player to gain a bonus to social rolls against things/people said player had soulgazed previously be allowed?  Is it balanced?  Since it is specific what would the numeric bonus be? 

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Mr. Death on March 16, 2012, 04:04:11 PM

I'd say that you could make the Penance Stare as an extra trapping to the Soulgaze, giving you a Weapon value on the mutual Conviction attack, and possibly a boost to the Conviction roll, conditional on whether or not the soulgaze determines the person deserves it.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: computerking on March 16, 2012, 06:17:03 PM

I would say the Penance Stare is a combination of an Incite (Emotion) attack and Psychometry. Perhaps with a starting cost of -2

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 16, 2012, 10:00:09 PM

So it's psychically shocking and it reveals information about someone. Sounds exactly like a Soulgaze.

Why not just use the standard Soulgaze rules for this? Is it one-sided?

A stunt could give the standard +1 to attacks/+2 to something else against someone who's been Soulgazed. It's a restriction like any other.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: devonapple on March 16, 2012, 10:34:44 PM

I get the impression that this power is more one-sided than a standard soulgaze?

This type of power is incredibly hard to model in, say, a point-based game like HERO or Mutants & Masterminds, because it conflates:
Omniscience (in this case, about the target's sins) - which blends elements of psychometry, telepathy, aura detection, divine judgement
Mental Illusions - projecting an image tailored to the information gained
Psychic Attack - sudden shame/guilt/acknowledgement of the sins/evil/etc.

In DFRPG, though, I think we can benefit from a more forgiving approach, focusing less on HOW it gets done, and reasoning from effect.

If the point of this power is to Take Out a sinner, is it something that would be modeled as an ongoing conflict? Incite Emotion, perhaps.
Is it just an automatic thing that eventually works, no matter who is the target?
Is this best done as a finishing blow? Perhaps Invoke an Aspect like "I See Your Sins" to bolster a Take Out attempt.
Is this a way to discover information to be used as leverage in a Conflict? Perhaps a more costly Soulgaze makes more sense: -1 for range, -1 or -2 for it to be one-way only.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Mr. Death on March 16, 2012, 11:08:24 PM

Judging from what I know of Ghost Rider (i.e., I saw the movie), the Penance Stare basically uses the victim's sins as fuel to break their brain--you did bad, so you feel all the pain you caused (as mental stress, in this case).

So yes, very one-sided.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Silverblaze on March 17, 2012, 07:04:03 PM

Mr. Death hit the nail on the head.

 Essentially, the Spirit of Vengeance sees all of your past misdeeds and makes you feel pain mentally (perhaps spiritually?) for each one of them.  This is done by causing feelings of guilt, despair, etc. for all your sins against others.  I've heard it described as "feeling all the pain you inflicted on others".  it is one-sided, though the user of said power likely sees it all as well.  The user likely feels little to no guilt for it however, since they did not inflict the deeds and are forcing someone else to "pay their penance".

The problem is the more "evil" or "sinful" the victim, the harsher the penance.  The ability would deal more stress to more evil people.  (Then again, true pyschopaths see it more like a highlight reel of greatest hits...Though that really isn't in the scope of the power I'm going for here.

Quote from: devonapple on March 16, 2012, 10:34:44 PM

I get the impression that this power is more one-sided than a standard soulgaze?

This type of power is incredibly hard to model in, say, a point-based game like HERO or Mutants & Masterminds, because it conflates:
Omniscience (in this case, about the target's sins) - which blends elements of psychometry, telepathy, aura detection, divine judgement
Mental Illusions - projecting an image tailored to the information gained
Psychic Attack - sudden shame/guilt/acknowledgement of the sins/evil/etc.

In DFRPG, though, I think we can benefit from a more forgiving approach, focusing less on HOW it gets done, and reasoning from effect.

If the point of this power is to Take Out a sinner, is it something that would be modeled as an ongoing conflict? Incite Emotion, perhaps.
Is it just an automatic thing that eventually works, no matter who is the target?
Is this best done as a finishing blow? Perhaps Invoke an Aspect like "I See Your Sins" to bolster a Take Out attempt.
Is this a way to discover information to be used as leverage in a Conflict? Perhaps a more costly Soulgaze makes more sense: -1 for range, -1 or -2 for it to be one-way only.

You got the right idea.  I'm trying to get hard stats hammered out for it.  I'll make an attempt soon.  Though at present I am about to start my St. Patrick's Daycelebratory reveling, so it won't be for a day or three ;D

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Silverblaze on March 17, 2012, 07:04:53 PM

Also:

"Other Soulgaze goodness: Should a stunt (or perhaps more appropriately a power) that allowed a player to gain a bonus to social rolls against things/people said player had soulgazed previously be allowed?  Is it balanced?  Since it is specific what would the numeric bonus be?" 

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: UmbraLux on March 17, 2012, 07:36:30 PM

It sounds to me as if the "penance gaze" is mental combat potentially leading to take out.  If so, I'd just stat it as a way to initiate said combat and, possibly, enter combat with a 'mental weapon'.  The result should be a contest / combat which, if the gazer wins, has the effect of causing guilt & pain appropriate to the sin.

Quote from: Silverblaze on March 17, 2012, 07:04:53 PM

"Other Soulgaze goodness: Should a stunt (or perhaps more appropriately a power) that allowed a player to gain a bonus to social rolls against things/people said player had soulgazed previously be allowed?  Is it balanced?  Since it is specific what would the numeric bonus be?"

You already gain a potential advantage against a soulgazee...you know one or more aspects.  You (probably - tables differ) even get a free tag after initial discovery. 

Information is power and soul gazes give you information.  Don't think they need more myself.  :)

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: JayTee on March 17, 2012, 09:05:30 PM

I'm not sure how you could model it as a mental attack, as a mental attack relies on the stats of the user. Penance Stare depends entirely on how many people the recipient has hurt. Likewise there isn't any real contest of wills, unless you count it as a contest between 'the target' and 'the collective agony of everyone they've ever hurt, ever'

So, if someone, say a random little girl where to have Penance Stare used on her, it wouldn't do anything. But if someone like Nicodemus were to have it used on him, it would more or less one-shot the guy.

I think the real tick is to figure out a way to model a power where the more the target has done a specific action (in this case, hurting/killing others), the more powerful it gets. Once you do that, you'll have the core aspect of Penance Stare down, and the rest is just details.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Mr. Death on March 18, 2012, 12:33:02 AM

Quote from: JayTee on March 17, 2012, 09:05:30 PM

I think the real tick is to figure out a way to model a power where the more the target has done a specific action (in this case, hurting/killing others), the more powerful it gets. Once you do that, you'll have the core aspect of Penance Stare down, and the rest is just details.

Maybe make it narrower--it works on Warlocks, and is stronger based on how much refresh they have in Lawbreakers powers?

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: UmbraLux on March 18, 2012, 12:50:37 AM

Quote from: JayTee on March 17, 2012, 09:05:30 PM

So, if someone, say a random little girl where to have Penance Stare used on her, it wouldn't do anything. But if someone like Nicodemus were to have it used on him, it would more or less one-shot the guy.

So you see it as an easy button for taking out all the bad guys without harming the nice little girls?  Meh.  Doesn't sound fun in game terms.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Mr. Death on March 18, 2012, 12:54:38 AM

Quote from: UmbraLux on March 18, 2012, 12:50:37 AM

So you see it as an easy button for taking out all the bad guys without harming the nice little girls?  Meh.  Doesn't sound fun in game terms.

Well, the way they let it keep a challenge in the movie is that it worked via the soul, and the main villain simply didn't have one. Lots of big badguys in Dresden wouldn't--Red Court, Black Court...pretty much anything you couldn't Soulgaze.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: JayTee on March 18, 2012, 03:08:10 AM

Quote from: Mr. Death on March 18, 2012, 12:33:02 AM

Maybe make it narrower--it works on Warlocks, and is stronger based on how much refresh they have in Lawbreakers powers?

I'm thinking a power that lets you make a mental attack on someone, with the shifts being based on how many 'evil' Aspects they have and how much refresh has been spent on traditionally 'evil' powers. Given how that's likely to be insanely powerful against some targets, I would probably require a Fate Point to activate it.

Quote from: UmbraLux on March 18, 2012, 12:50:37 AM

So you see it as an easy button for taking out all the bad guys without harming the nice little girls?  Meh.  Doesn't sound fun in game terms.

Anyone with a high enough Guns skill can do the same thing.

Quote from: Mr. Death on March 18, 2012, 12:54:38 AM

Well, the way they let it keep a challenge in the movie is that it worked via the soul, and the main villain simply didn't have one. Lots of big badguys in Dresden wouldn't--Red Court, Black Court...pretty much anything you couldn't Soulgaze.

I would honestly just apply it to how 'evil' they are, rather than if they have a soul or not. Otherwise you get in to cross-universe discussions and that can only lead to failure.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: crusher_bob on March 18, 2012, 03:24:24 AM

Another option to think about is what conditions are needed to use it?  Can you thematically walk down the street and use it on passers-by?  Or is it more used on the bag guy once you have beaten them down?  If it's the sort of power that's only used after you've won the fight, then it can largely just be something that effects how you narrate your victory.  I mean, if the villain is permanently mentally incapacitated because I looked him in the eye, or he is dead because I filled him full of bullets, it's not going to make too much difference.

If for example, the bad guys you use it on and are supposed to become repentant and try to fix their past sins, then that's potentially different, because they might have an ongoing effect on the story.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: UmbraLux on March 18, 2012, 04:26:33 AM

Quote from: JayTee on March 18, 2012, 03:08:10 AM

Anyone with a high enough Guns skill can do the same thing.

Not without excessive amounts of preparation.  Takeout is 26+ shifts, a very high Guns total might be 13 (Fantastic skill, Weapon:3, and +4 on the dice) and defense is subtracted from it - that leaves at least the same number of shifts to make up in preparation.  You have ~1.2% chance of making that +4 roll. 

That's why I'd model it as mental combat.  Call penance stare a Weapon:1-3 mental attack.  Base the weapon power on the staree's sin / evil related aspects.  They'll go down unless they're much tougher in mental combat than the attacker - it just won't be a one shot unless the attacker has spent significant resources on preparation.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: ways and means on March 18, 2012, 05:13:56 AM

Me I would do it as mental combat + mental assessments, the power lets you assess multiple aspect in a single turn as long as they are related to sinning and then you tag said aspects in the next go for a plus to a mental attack.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Silverblaze on March 19, 2012, 09:02:11 PM

Inclined to require purchasing Soulgaze.

Then have a high concept related to redemption of evil or vengeance or somethign else applicable.

I was thinking having it act as weapon 2 attack based on conviction (modified by intimidation?) defended with conviction.  With a potential upgrade adding 2 more weapon value (only available to purchase once of course).

I'd allow the character to choose whether or not to penance stare while soulgazing, since this is a seperate power.

This would be a one way damage power (the defender does not attack back) requiring the same situations to initiate as Soulgaze.  I would allow the user of said power to tag evil aspects of the victim for +2 to the roll.  Like any other attack the attacker could make declarations (I just saw this person steal/murder etc.), evoke their own aspects, or tag/evoke consequences of the target.

To use those evil asepcts the character would have to learn them by other means : empathy, Soulgaze etc.

Much like Soulgaze, penance Stare should only be usable once per individual until they've hurt more people sinned substantially etc.  (Much like Soulgaze only works once until a person changes at their core)

Penance Stare only works on beings capable of emotion or capable of being Soulgazed ( good idea?)

target recieves a temporary aspect scared straight which can be removed like any other aspect placed on them.

perhaps I;'d allow the custom stunt (you don't want to see my soul) add to this but it would get pretty mean as a weeapon 6 attack....

Cost: -3? (In addition to the -1 for Soulgaze) Optionally -1 for a weapon 2 bonus?

Very preliminary and in need of much revising.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Mr. Death on March 19, 2012, 09:14:39 PM

Quote from: Silverblaze on March 19, 2012, 09:02:11 PM

(Much like Soulgaze only works once until a person changes at their core)

Wait, what? Where was this ever said? Everything I've seen about a Soulgaze indicates it's only usable once ever between any two people.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Silverblaze on March 20, 2012, 01:03:16 AM

Quote from: Mr. Death on March 19, 2012, 09:14:39 PM

Wait, what? Where was this ever said? Everything I've seen about a Soulgaze indicates it's only usable once ever between any two people.

Inferrence from the novels.

Fairly certain I've read it somewhere that if a person changes their nature they cease to be the person they were before.  I may have misinterpreted the wording I suppose.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Mr. Death on March 20, 2012, 01:05:04 AM

I think you're thinking of True Names.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Mr. Death on March 20, 2012, 03:55:47 PM

An idea I had from browsing the book earlier. Make it part of The Sight as much as the Soulgaze. Have the wielder have a specialized version of The Sight, where he specifically sees the marks of a person's sins--let them roll Lore or what have you to make assessments as to what those sins are, then tag those for the Soulgaze attack.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Silverblaze on March 20, 2012, 09:18:00 PM

Quote from: Mr. Death on March 20, 2012, 03:55:47 PM

An idea I had from browsing the book earlier. Make it part of The Sight as much as the Soulgaze. Have the wielder have a specialized version of The Sight, where he specifically sees the marks of a person's sins--let them roll Lore or what have you to make assessments as to what those sins are, then tag those for the Soulgaze attack.

That's not a bad idea.  I kinda like it.  I just figure it is closer to Soulgaze than Sight.  You can have one without the other can't you?  Could require both for it.

How did you feel about the costing of it?  Too much, too little? 

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Mr. Death on March 20, 2012, 10:19:12 PM

Quote from: Silverblaze on March 20, 2012, 09:18:00 PM

That's not a bad idea.  I kinda like it.  I just figure it is closer to Soulgaze than Sight.  You can have one without the other can't you?  Could require both for it.

How did you feel about the costing of it?  Too much, too little?

Well, I figured it was a two-step process; use the Sight to assess whatever sins the guy has, then use the Soulgaze for the actual attack; hell, Ghost Rider seems to have some kind of sense of who's sinned and who hasn't, so this plays into it.

As for pricing...I admit, I'm pretty crap on that in general, honestly.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: devonapple on March 20, 2012, 10:30:58 PM

Quote from: Silverblaze on March 20, 2012, 09:18:00 PM

How did you feel about the costing of it?  Too much, too little?

Depends on what you want it to do. Now that you have a multitude of options from the thread, which elements do you want to keep? How long should this take? Is it instant, or part of a greater spiritual conflict?

Make a bunch of bullet points, and we can price this out.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Silverblaze on March 21, 2012, 01:19:09 PM

Bullet points as requested for aid in costing the power.  Bolded sections are what I deemed most important.  Upgrade not bolded since I assume I was correct in it costing -1 additional refresh.

Quote from: Silverblaze on March 19, 2012, 09:02:11 PM

- require purchasing Soulgaze.

 - high concept related to redemption of evil or vengeance or something else applicable.

- weapon 2 attack based on conviction (modified by intimidation?) defended with conviction. 

- upgrade adding 2 more weapon value (only available to purchase once of course).

- I'd allow the character to choose whether or not to penance stare while soulgazing, since this is a seperate power. Though: it could follow or precede a soulgaze - allowing two mental "attacks" one right after another...not quite as nasty as Incite Emotion, but still effective.

- This would be a one way damage power (the defender does not attack back) requiring the same situations to initiate as Soulgaze.  I would allow the user of said power to tag evil aspects of the victim for +2 to the roll.  Like any other attack the attacker could make declarations (I just saw this person steal/murder etc.), evoke their own aspects, or tag/evoke consequences of the target.

- much like Soulgaze, penance Stare should only be usable once per individual

- Penance Stare only works on beings capable of emotion or capable of being Soulgazed ( good idea?)

- target recieves a temporary aspect "scared-straight" which can be removed like any other aspect placed on them.

Title: Re: Statting up the Penance Stare and other Soulgaze Goodness
Post by: Silverblaze on March 22, 2012, 03:54:38 PM

I'm thinking -2 power.

-3 if upgraded.

Opinions?