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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Shriketastic on March 13, 2012, 05:52:48 PM

Title: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: Shriketastic on March 13, 2012, 05:52:48 PM
Working out a new rote for a Sorceror character.

Was thinking of it being a Spirit Evoc spell, damage dealing, single target, but *only to a disembodied spirit/ghost, or to the spirit/ghost that is possessing/inhabiting a body*, not to the Host's body, or to any non-disembodied supernatural.

For example:

Sorc A uses this rote on a visible ghost. It deals damage.

Sorc A uses this rote on a person being possessed by a ghost. The spell deals damage to the possessing spirit, but NOT to the host body.

Sorc A uses this rote on a Sidhe warrior. It does nothing.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 13, 2012, 06:02:39 PM
Okay.

Are you looking for help?

I wouldn't let Evocation do this in one of my games, but it's kind of a matter of taste.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: Orladdin on March 13, 2012, 07:18:41 PM
I don't know, Sanctaphrax... making a spell that only effects certain kinds of beings seems fairly reasonable.  Especially targetting ghosts with the spirit element.

The question is: how to handle it mechanically...?
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: Haru on March 13, 2012, 07:27:10 PM
I'd say "depends on the wizard". If you come from Morty's end and see spirit as the ghostly element, then I'd allow it, absolutely. If he is coming from Harry's spirit is pure force angle, then no, I would not allow it. Basically invoking the wizards blind spot as suggested in box in YS.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: Shriketastic on March 13, 2012, 08:05:00 PM
My character (as a Shaman) views Spirit as "Raw Magical/Spiritual energy/manipulation". If you've played or read the White Wolf mage games, something like Prime.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: sinker on March 14, 2012, 02:07:32 AM
Quote from: Orladdin on March 13, 2012, 07:18:41 PM
The question is: how to handle it mechanically...?

It's not actually tough. You're still dealing stress (perhaps mental to represent an attack at the core of their being). I would probably deal with it in the take out result.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: Orladdin on March 14, 2012, 12:10:59 PM
Quote from: sinker on March 14, 2012, 02:07:32 AM
It's not actually tough. You're still dealing stress (perhaps mental to represent an attack at the core of their being). I would probably deal with it in the take out result.

So, you'd take out the human vessel and the spirit joyrider and then rule that the human is unconscious but unharmed, the spirit is dead or shunted to the NN?  Simple solution.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: sinker on March 14, 2012, 04:24:13 PM
Quote from: Orladdin on March 14, 2012, 12:10:59 PM
So, you'd take out the human vessel and the spirit joyrider and then rule that the human is unconscious but unharmed, the spirit is dead or shunted to the NN?  Simple solution.

I don't really see them as two distinct beings. Or at least I don't see the human vessel as important. You're fighting the possessing entity, not the vessel. It's the spirit that has a stake in the conflict, whose goals you are opposing. Unless the vessel is willing and working with the possessor, then it gets interesting. Then I would think that there would be two distinct stress tracks and you would have to take them out individually.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: devonapple on March 14, 2012, 04:42:51 PM
I feel that the majority of the dissent against such a concept has to do with the following:

Dealing with a possessing spirit in an innocent human host faces three key complications:
1) how to do expel or destroy the spirit without hurting the host (we hope); and
2) how to make sure that the spirit is gone for good, and doesn't just find someone else to possess;
3) how to do it without risk to oneself (spoiler alert: didn't work too well in "The Exorcist).

When something magically (ha ha!) deals with all of these complications at the same time, it feels like a shortcut, or a cheat. The drama we've come to expect from movies like "The Exorcist" gets changed to a magical duck hunt with no consequences for poor target choice. Maybe I speak for myself on this.

But maybe that's the game a table wants to play. Individual games are free to shortcut or handwave any element of a game that they feel is dragging the pace without a return on entertainment. In a post-zombie-apocalypse game in which the zombie flavor is "possessed by demons," having a gut-wrenching exorcism for each member of 99.99% of the shambling hordes of humanity would be completely unfeasible, and likely futile. In this case, an "exorcism gun" becomes a prop or tool, not a magical plot shortcut.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: sinker on March 14, 2012, 07:05:04 PM
Except we don't have a magical exorcism gun here. It's still a conflict. One still has to wear the entity down by inflicting stress over several rounds. One may take damage as the entity fights back. I just don't think that it matters which stress track, or how they're taken out, so long as the table approves.

If the table feels that the final result is weak (and of course the GM is part of the table) then they can say so and work towards a better option. If the player takes a spirit out and says "The spirit dissipates, never to be seen again." The GM can still say "Hmm, I don't think that's ideal. How about it just leaves the host?" Or any number of other things.

Just because we allow a narrative option, doesn't mean that the drama is any less.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 14, 2012, 10:44:12 PM
I dislike this for three reasons:

1. Evocation is generally supposed to be really simple. This isn't.
2. You're totally negating Physical Immunity for free.
3. Selective targeting for Evocation is really dangerous ground.

Anyway...what exactly are you looking for here? I'm providing opinions on whether it ought to be possible, but for all I know you just want advice on how to do it.

So, please, tell us the purpose of this thread.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: ConquerYourWorld on March 15, 2012, 03:54:53 AM
Shriketastic's GM here.

He came to me last night with the idea for making a rote for this purpose, and I just wasn't sure of how to adjudicate it, so I asked him to post a thread about it here, to get your input.  Perhaps I should have just posted the thread myself.

After reading the input, I'm definitely coming to the conclusion that targeting just the spirit would be outside the realm of Evocation, which is kinda where I was leaning to begin with.  Thank you for the input.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: crusher_bob on March 16, 2012, 06:15:27 AM
I think that in a not all wizard game, the GM has to clamp down pretty hard on magic being the omni tool to short cut through all problems.

One way to do this is to say that magic is capable of doing X, but most wizards haven't practiced it enough to do it well.  If you want to be one of the people who has practiced enough, take a stunt or power expansion (or spend a fate point for a temporary power expansion).

So, for example, can you fly with magic?  Harry indicates that it's not really a matter of having enough power to fly around, but much more a matter of having and keeping enough control to avoid becoming ground pizza that's the problem.  So, want to be a wizard character to flys around with magic?  Take the wings power, and say you are flying around with evocation instead.  Or spend a fate point for temporary access to 'wings' and use 'evocation' to fly around for a little while, then embarrassingly fall out of the sky at the end, to show it's not really something you can do all the time.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: RevengeofTim on March 26, 2012, 03:27:19 AM
I might allow it with;

1) A penalty to targeting
2) A special focus, infused with ghost dust.
3) Only useable against free spirits, not people who are possessed.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: Anher on March 28, 2012, 12:22:44 AM
This would seem to me to be a case where Thaumaturgy would work well for the application in mind over Evocation. It would require more footwork and would certainly make for more interesting game play as the player hunts down pieces for the ritual which could be anything from ghost dust to a bone from the corpse of the ghost (assuming that's available, or said spirit had a human body at some point).
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: Orladdin on March 28, 2012, 01:46:35 PM
Having just re-read Grave Peril, I am now in agreement that this should be Thaumaturgy.  Only Evocable with ThamAtEvoSpeed from sponsored or something similar.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: sinker on March 28, 2012, 03:49:27 PM
What specifically are you referring to Orladdin?
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: Orladdin on March 28, 2012, 05:27:39 PM
Quote from: sinker on March 28, 2012, 03:49:27 PM
What specifically are you referring to Orladdin?

How difficult Dresden finds it to
(click to show/hide)

He still has to draw the circle with salt and use candles (additional focus items).  It also takes him more than one exchange.

This is essentially the exact situation the OP gives.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: Tedronai on March 28, 2012, 05:35:09 PM
Problem 1: Kravos' ghost wasn't a mook.  The fact that 'it took more than one exhange' to exorcise him is thus moot.  It would take more than one exchange to burn through his stress and consequence tracks with effective attacks.
Problem 2: Harry's 'Not So Subtle...' aspect makes it incredibly difficult for him to use any but the most blunt applications of Spirit, the element proposed for this effect.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: Orladdin on March 28, 2012, 09:06:20 PM
Quote from: Tedronai on March 28, 2012, 05:35:09 PM
Problem 1: Kravos' ghost wasn't a mook.  The fact that 'it took more than one exhange' to exorcise him is thus moot.  It would take more than one exchange to burn through his stress and consequence tracks with effective attacks.
Problem 2: Harry's 'Not So Subtle...' aspect makes it incredibly difficult for him to use any but the most blunt applications of Spirit, the element proposed for this effect.

Both good points.  I guess we should be discussing whether or not it makes sense for Morty to just flick a wrist and pop a posessing ghost out of the posessee... and if he can, did he take an extra ability (worth refresh) to do so?
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 28, 2012, 09:30:24 PM
Could care less about novel examples. The game is not an extension of the stories. What works mechanics-wise should trump what simulates the books.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: GryMor on March 30, 2012, 12:37:10 AM
There are three parts to this:
1. Is it something that reasonably shouldn't harm your unintended victims?
2. Does it satisfy the catch of your intended victim?
3. Does it fit cleanly into one of your evocation elements?

A Dawn attack likely satisfies 1 and 2 but will often fail on 3 if you don't have SM: Summer Court or something equivalent.

That said, there are a few examples in the book, Ghost Dust and Sunburst pg 304. If you can fit their effects into your evocation elements, then go ahead, otherwise you are stuck doing Thaum (either directly or with potions).
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: sinker on March 30, 2012, 03:11:19 AM
I think that there's one thing that bugs me about not allowing this kind of thing. Because it penalizes a player for a specific thematic choice. The player is still attacking, they are still dealing stress. How that stress is dealt is fairly irrelevant.

Quote from: GryMor on March 30, 2012, 12:37:10 AM
3. Does it fit cleanly into one of your evocation elements?

Fire is supposed to have a purifying aspect (just like water is entropy, and air is movement, etc).
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: Mr. Death on March 30, 2012, 03:18:21 AM
Quote from: sinker on March 30, 2012, 03:11:19 AM
Fire is supposed to have a purifying aspect (just like water is entropy, and air is movement, etc).
It'd be tricky to bathe a target body in fire and not harm the body itself, though.
Title: Re: Working out a new Spirit Rote for attacking discorporate beings
Post by: sinker on March 30, 2012, 04:33:27 AM
Except it seems that one can use water's entropy aspect without directly using water. It follows that one can purify without directly using fire.

Additionally that was really a tangential point. My main point (that you're penalizing someone for a thematic choice) is the more important.