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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: MWKilduff on March 11, 2012, 05:31:05 AM
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Ok, so I have an experienced player who is doing modular abilities. We have covered the different supernatural stunts it can copy. However we have run into another snag. Toughness powers give you a catch that reduces the cost of all toughness powers. Since toughness powers are usually stationary it is not a problem. However for someone who can switch between toughness and recovery it feels like they are getting the catch points twice. I mean toughness is an in combat power and recovery is in general an out of combat power. It feels like they should not get the +3 catch applied both times when the points are moved around. Ei, in combat supernatural toughness for 1 point and out of combat supernatural recovery for 1 point seems over powered. Opinions or solutions?
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My first thought is mostly to wonder what the rest of the character concept is. What, if any, other shapeshifting powers does the character have? What is the general concept and theme of the powers? What's the Catch?
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Changeling of the rogue court. Basically the spring and autumn courts lost the last great fae war. It was the male run courts with Oberon and other male fae that have not been mentioned in the stories. He has an iop that is puck's token allowing him glamours and 8 points in modular abilities allowing for 6 moveable points. The catch is +3 cold iron as normal for fae.
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Ok, so I have an experienced player who is doing modular abilities. We have covered the different supernatural stunts it can copy. However we have run into another snag. Toughness powers give you a catch that reduces the cost of all toughness powers. Since toughness powers are usually stationary it is not a problem. However for someone who can switch between toughness and recovery it feels like they are getting the catch points twice.
One thing worth mentioning, if the doesn't always apply, (i.e. On Monday I have Toughness powers but on Tuesday I don't.) it should be reduced in value. At minimum, it's no longer consistent which removes the researching / knowledge portion of the catch.
I mean toughness is an in combat power and recovery is in general an out of combat power. It feels like they should not get the +3 catch applied both times when the points are moved around. Ei, in combat supernatural toughness for 1 point and out of combat supernatural recovery for 1 point seems over powered. Opinions or solutions?
They're not in combat and out of combat powers. They apply only to injuries taken while in effect.
If you're already injured and somehow gain Inhuman Recovery, you'll heal any new injuries faster. Old injuries may as well have met your Catch. The power was 'bypassed' (because you didn't have it up) when they were taken.
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That makes more sense... Where did you find this gem of information in the book please? I know my player is going to want to read it.
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The section on Toughness powers and the Catch. There's a sidebar (YS185) on shapechanging and toughness powers regarding the 'knowable' part of the catch - basically states if the catch isn't always the same it's not knowable. I include 'occasionally not having a catch' as 'not always the same' since shapeshifting doesn't appear to apply in this case.
As for when the powers apply, it's in the Catch text primarily. If anything "bypasses" a power, that power does not apply. If you don't have the power up, it's bypassed by default. So retroactively applying a recovery power doesn't work.
It's also worth keeping in mind that a Catch can't reduce the total cost of Toughness related powers below -1. (YS185) So, if they want the effects of both Toughness and Recovery, they need to pay for it. Can't say I'm Tough now and I'll Recover later while still expecting it to apply to the 'now' without paying for both.
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Perfect. Thanks for the help. Now I need to tack on a question I think I already know the answer. It you had inhuman toughness and recovery up during a fight and after the fight upped the recovery to supernatural, would that apply. I lean towards no, but I figured it is the next step in this conversation.
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I'd apply the same principal for the same reasons - if it wasn't up when you took the injury it doesn't apply to that injury.
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I include 'occasionally not having a catch' as 'not always the same' since shapeshifting doesn't appear to apply in this case.
I don't know about this. If the catch is always the same then when he has the powers then the catch is applicable and when he doesn't then the whole thing is irrelevant (especially with a cold iron catch). At least in this case I see it as "Someone hits you with an iron object. You have toughness? It bypasses the powers and you take full damage. You don't have toughness? You take full damage."
I could see making it more expensive to have the ability to have toughness sometimes, but there's already a 2 refresh surcharge for modular abilities.
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They're not in combat and out of combat powers. They apply only to injuries taken while in effect.
Pretty sure this is wrong. Side commentary on page 177 of YS backs me up.
I think that your friend's shenanigans are part of Modular Abilities' intended functionality. It's extremely powerful, like every other power in its price bracket.
PS: The in-combat benefits of Recovery are not to be sneezed at. Getting away from having your consequences tagged is awesome.
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Sancta's comment got me reading. The comment on the bottom of YS185 specifically states that if you shapeshift into a toughness ability the cost benefits of the catch are applicable so long as it's the same catch every time.
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So, we have a little debate. Ok, so looking at it just from a single example might help. I pay 1 refresh to get supernatural toughness in combat with the catch of cold iron. Using in this case the rest of my 5 modular points to have inhuman speed and strength for 2 each and take claws to up my damage even more. Because I am a tough sob I walk out of the fight with only a couple of consequences. During the car chase to catch the bad guys in the following scene I switch to supernatural recovery paying 1 refresh again with the cold iron catch. Now he can get rid of some of those consequences he got during the fight. Bringing him to the fight at the end of the chase sans consequences and fresh to whoop up on the bad guys once again? To me that seems like in addition to getting the ability to move his points around he is also getting the catch price reduction twice.
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I don't know about this. If the catch is always the same then when he has the powers then the catch is applicable and when he doesn't then the whole thing is irrelevant (especially with a cold iron catch). At least in this case I see it as "Someone hits you with an iron object. You have toughness? It bypasses the powers and you take full damage. You don't have toughness? You take full damage."
Sancta's comment got me reading. The comment on the bottom of YS185 specifically states that if you shapeshift into a toughness ability the cost benefits of the catch are applicable so long as it's the same catch every time.
Yep, you'll note I referred to the same sidebar. I see it as a difference of "wolf gets hurt by silver not by iron" and, in this case, "man get's hurt by iron sometimes but not others". (Remember the OP is discussing gaining these via an Item of Power, not a shapechange.) To me, that adds enough confusion to reduce the 'knowability' factor.
Pretty sure this is wrong. Side commentary on page 177 of YS backs me up.
Err, you mean the the sidebar which suggests "...if you want reliable access to healing, buy it separately."?
That sidebar may argue both sides...but it seems to lean strongly towards limiting healing by shifting powers. Yet, somehow, you're "pretty sure it's wrong"? :o
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Okay, so I was reading this post and two things leap out at me:
1. The point cost of the Toughness powers are still the same as if purchased normally (actually, slightly more expensive with the 2 point 'buy in' from Modular Abilities) and the powers work the same as if they were permanent purchases - whether a Toughness and/or a Recovery, the mechanics work the same. Even switching out, the powers cost the same, work the same and have the same limitations. The character is using (in your example) quite a few of his form points to do this instead of taking other abilities. I wouldn't say the Catch applies twice, in your example, because when the character switches, he's giving up the Toughness power. Even with both powers at the same time, the point cost/catch refund are calculated as normal. The player/character is choosing to spend the points on both powers (limiting other options) or giving up one power for another.
As a previous poster put a similar comment - You get hit with cold iron - take full damage, no Recovery benefit. You get hit with iron with out purchasing Toughness, take full damage, no Recovery benefit. You get hit with enough power to take stress/consequences, you can Recover, but it will take time. Remeber - only consequences that get reduced below mild get removed at the beginning of the next scene. That's a huge benefit, to be sure, but not the panacea some people make Recovery out to be. If you get messed up enough in the first fight, by the time the car chase ends, you could still have some significant consequences in play. All the Recovery powers (not sure about Mythic) state you still need time to fully Recover. That aspect of the power simply gives you a reason to start Recovery. It's not like casting a healing spell in D&D.
2. If you're trying to resolve how the Catch would work when not taking powers - it says in the entry that the presence of the Catch can make the character uncomfortable, even if it's not being used to directly harm. Maybe from a social arena, he's off balance from the presence of so much iron (not to mention potentially it's alloys - ie steel) or perhaps if somehow effects his Glamours (even if he's drawing them from the IoP, he still has to direct them). In short, the Catch can have some pretty far reaching effects, depending on the scene and circumstance. It would still be part of the character, it would simply be more "mechanically" pronounced when in relation to Toughness powers.
Oh, and in the interests of full disclosure - I'm the player in question. I normally wouldn't post, but I'd like to make sure all view points are taken in to account.
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Umbra, you seem to be skipping the first part of Billy's response in both sidebars.
Dresden asks if adding a toughness power via shapeshifting powers (which includes modular abilities) means adding a catch with it's rebate. Billy says yes. He goes on to qualify that statement (with the concept that the catch must be the same each time it is added, which in this case it is), but he's still saying yes.
Again, in the shapeshifting sidebar Dresden asks if you can shapeshift to add recovery powers. Billy says yes. In fact, he says yes and then qualifies it as the shapeshifter focusing their power to heal wounds (which they wouldn't need to do if they didn't have wounds). The part that you are referring to (If you want reliable access to healing, buy it separately) is in response to him saying that the GM can choose to limit shapeshifted healing in some situations.
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Umbra, you seem to be skipping the first part of Billy's response in both sidebars.
Didn't skip either. Even alluded to both of them - though in different posts. See previous posts for my thoughts.
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UmbraLux, the rules explicitly say that you can shapeshift in order to heal faster from your injuries. It doesn't get much more clear-cut than that.
Sure, it says that the GM can rule against you. But that's always true.
MWKilduff, you seem to have a problem of some kind with what your player is doing. What is that problem? Everything sounds kosher to me.
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My concern is simple. I don't want his character to outshine the other players by being overpowered. As both a player and a story teller I can see the argument from both sides and just wanted to get outside opinions so that I make the right decision.
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I'd let him do it for now. I wouldn't expect him to be noticeably more powerful than an Evoker or a Crafter or an Incite Emotion-based fighter or a physical tank.
But if it were to become a problem, I'd houserule in UmbraLux's interpretation. That's what the book tells you to do if there's a problem, it's probably worth a shot.
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In situations like this I am a fan of giving it a test run. If it becomes a problem you can always address it at that point. Just make sure that everyone at the table is aware that it is being used in a trial fashion. That way if it does end up being problematic the player doesn't feel blindsided by the issue being raised again.
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We are going to try umbralux's solution it seems most fair and balanced. If we find otherwise we will adapt.
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Personally I would have thought any advantage gained from modular abilities would be covered in the 2 refresh, considering you will need true shape shifting to get any real flexibility from those modular abilities it remains quite a high refresh build compared to any more focused one.
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I do not think the math supports it. If I have only 3 points spent in modular abilities giving me just 1 form point I can get supernatural toughness with the +3 cold iron catch and after the fight scene switch to supernatural recovery and use the recovery powers to wipe out consequences. For 3 points I got what would cost a straight buy of supernatural toughness and recovery 5 points including the +3 cold iron catch. That is directly where I am concerned. To be honest I do not expect this to come up too much because my player believes in the power of the sneaky! Most bad guys will never get through his veils.
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Having Toughness and Recovery all the time is better than swapping between the two. What if someone shoots you during the car chase? What if you need to ditch mild consequences before they get tagged during the fight?
Having one < having either < having both.
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I do not disagree with you. But I think that a point spread of 2 points is still significant.
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Eh, I think it's within the balance margin of error. It might be above the curve, but it won't make other optimized characters feel weak.
Might be a problem if the rest of the party is un-optimized, though. What do the other PCs look like?
PS: My experience here is limited because my shapeshifting PC has Recovery all the time and my shapeshifting villain has not yet appeared onscreen. I'm only about 60% confident here.
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Well, with how many people keep saying I should just let it slide I am gonna try it. You guys have more experience than me... I guess I will just have to give you guys an update once I have tried it out.