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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 27, 2012, 06:15:44 PM

Title: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 27, 2012, 06:15:44 PM
 Again my players bring me a question that whilst addressed in the books I want to find a way to circumvent it.
One of my Players "El calavera divino" (the heavenly Skull) A Luchadore heavily modeled after El Santo, wants to possess one of the three swords, which I have no problem with the thing is however, said character has NO weapons skill and was wondering if the blade was broken, could the nail be forged into a grip for a pair of iron/silver knuckles? I know the books says it "Always" takes the form of a sword, but I don't see why It honestly COULDN'T be forged into a weapon to suit the wielder in the event that the blade was broken
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: devonapple on February 27, 2012, 06:26:41 PM
1. One could make an analogue of the Sword, with an alternate origin and backstory: perhaps a special gauntlet.
2. The character could eventually learn to use the Sword (upgrade Weapons over a series of milestones). Make it a training montage!

My personal feeling (which I don't imagine needs to hold any weight in your game) is that the Swords are better left roughly as-is, but that you have latitude to make other holy items without the same imagery and narrative baggage of the Swords.

But if that's not going to be fun, then melt that sword down and give your Luchedor some holy knuckle dusters!

I love the holy luchador idea, by the way. And if your game is going to be a little gonzo, then reforging a Sword of the Cross probably won't be too out of place.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Mr. Death on February 27, 2012, 06:27:57 PM
I would just say not to do this to Amoracchias, since that's kind of the "big one" of the three.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: devonapple on February 27, 2012, 06:35:03 PM
I assume someone in the group has seen "Jesus Christ: Vampire Hunter"?

"Not even this can separate you from my love ::bam!::"

Brilliantly bad.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 27, 2012, 06:36:39 PM
I would just say not to do this to Amoracchias, since that's kind of the "big one" of the three.
Nope never would I dare have something happen to
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Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: devonapple on February 27, 2012, 06:41:42 PM
Nope never would I dare have something happen to
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Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 27, 2012, 06:42:14 PM
!

I love the holy luchador idea, by the way. And if your game is going to be a little gonzo, then reforging a Sword of the Cross probably won't be too out of place.
We've got steampunk iron man...
Our last session mostly ended with the group running down the street whilst pursued by Diedre and Tessa, and a bunch of their lackies, While our Steam-Punk Iron-man screamed at his robot butler named J.O.C.K to "START THE PLANE JOCK! START THE PLANE!." To get the robot to start the steam-power V.T.O.L. it...was awesome


The best part of the "Steam punk iron man" and "steam powered VTOL" is that the player went out of his way to explain how it would be less likely to be hexed than real ones. So we've got charts and blueprints and everything. Our campaign goes from completely serious to off the walls wacky at times, it feels great
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: devonapple on February 27, 2012, 06:44:43 PM
Steampunk Iron Man = awesome, but not very low-profile. How restricted is his utility? Is he reserved for remote wilderness assaults and forays into the Nevernever? Or is he stomping around downtown?
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 27, 2012, 06:46:38 PM
Steampunk Iron Man = awesome, but not very low-profile. How restricted is his utility? Is he reserved for remote wilderness assaults and forays into the Nevernever? Or is he stomping around downtown?
He stays out of his suit most of the time..especially for three nights outta the week since he's also a lycanthrope. (He's got the refresh he started as a lycanthrope made the suit later after being dragged into supernatural battles )
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Haru on February 27, 2012, 07:10:06 PM
If you want to reforge it into knuckles, it could be the one incarnation of the sword nobody knows about.

On the other hand, you could give him the sword as a sword and still have him fight with the knuckles. He could just take the sword with him as a talisman. The swords are there to level the playing field, but they don't necessarily have to do it by wielding them. He could say a quick prayer when going into battle, imbuing his regular knuckles with the power of the sword, for example. Not as an action or even a supplemental action, just as flavour. Or depending on where he is, he could ram the sword into the earth or into some wood and it will stay there, glowing in holy light and grant its powers to the knuckles.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on February 27, 2012, 07:30:40 PM
Or you could have him take a stunt that lets him use the sword with his Fists skill.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Ricky on February 27, 2012, 08:01:05 PM
Armed Arts page 152 allows you to pick two weapons to use with the fists skill.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Mr. Death on February 27, 2012, 08:06:02 PM
Or you could have him take a stunt that lets him use the sword with his Fists skill.
Heck, why not make it a trapping of the sword?
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Becq on February 27, 2012, 08:23:30 PM
I'd recommend against going with some sort of reforging, if for no other reason than you'd have to come up with a plausable means to do so.  Consider that even Warden's blades (which aren't even in the same weight class)
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.  How much more of an issue would it be to reforge a holy relic in such a way that it doesn't become a (possibly still holy) lump of steel?

* The Armed Art stunt might be an option, though my take is that that stunt is really intended for use with small weapons.
* Retraining (shifting skill points from other skills to Weapons) is a solid option.
* Adding a stunt to the Sword that allows the wielder to use an alternate skill in place of Weapons ("All Training Is Equal Before God"?) is feasible, though it would certainly make the Sword more expensive.
* Or simply create a *new* IoP that fills a similar role but fits the character's fighting style better.  Instead of using the Knight of the Cross option of the "Champion of God" template, the character would be a non-Knight Champion of God, or a True Believer with a non-sword Relic.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Mr. Death on February 27, 2012, 08:25:43 PM
You could crib from Dr. McNinja and go with nunchuks made from Mother Teresa's bones and a staff made of wood from the original Cross.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Haru on February 27, 2012, 08:34:21 PM
I'd recommend against going with some sort of reforging, if for no other reason than you'd have to come up with a plausable means to do so.  Consider that even Warden's blades (which aren't even in the same weight class)
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.  How much more of an issue would it be to reforge a holy relic in such a way that it doesn't become a (possibly still holy) lump of steel?
Considering that Sanya got his sword from THE Michael, I'd say that it should be no problem for an angelic smith to recreate it any way he wants, even if a a human reforged it into a lump of steel. Or maybe the real IoP is the nail, not the sword around it, so the nail can't be destroyed or even formed, the rest of the sword is just forged around the nail. Anyway, I don't think that should be too much of an issue.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Becq on February 27, 2012, 08:54:34 PM
Point.  Even so, the book indicates that "A Sword of the Cross always takes the form of a sword, though the precise type of sword may change through the ages."  Not that you can't change this, but why do so when you can just as easily make a new item that fits better and doesn't result in a "Knight of the Cross" that punches Denarians with holy brass knuckles?

(As an aside, note that Brass Knuckles of the Cross would cost -4 rather than -3, due to their concealability.)
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: devonapple on February 28, 2012, 12:02:25 AM
I like the idea of a pair of mail/plate gauntlets with great a great heavy ornate cross over the business portion of each fist, but that may not be in the luchedor aesthetic.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Haru on February 28, 2012, 12:10:05 AM
Point.  Even so, the book indicates that "A Sword of the Cross always takes the form of a sword, though the precise type of sword may change through the ages."
Hmm, you're right. Then again, you could take my second idea and just make it a sword shaped amulet (Hah! :P) that grants you the power of the sotc for your knuckles.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: devonapple on February 28, 2012, 12:12:02 AM
(As an aside, note that Brass Knuckles of the Cross would cost -4 rather than -3, due to their concealability.)

Would th eplayer be able to afford a -4 version, Taskill?
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 28, 2012, 01:15:12 PM
Would th eplayer be able to afford a -4 version, Taskill?
yeah he's been hoarding his refresh. He's got 7 free refresh so the four would be nothing

. Or maybe the real IoP is the nail, not the sword around it, so the nail can't be destroyed or even formed, the rest of the sword is just forged around the nail. Anyway, I don't think that should be too much of an issue.

I'm pretty sure it's the nail, since Katanas weren't really around till the 15th/16th century and the style of cavalry blade that Sanya uses wasn't around till about 1908, I would assume the blades have been reforged previously since that leaves 2000 year gap from -33BC till the Calvary saber version of Esperacchius. I'm sure they've been reforged a few times, but not to many. I'm almost positive that the nail is the more important part.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on February 28, 2012, 01:22:50 PM
If he has the refresh to spare, I'd go with either a different IoP with the same powers (made from any number of things out there) or have him take the Armed Arts stunt.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Mr. Death on February 28, 2012, 01:27:16 PM
I'm pretty sure it's the nail, since Katanas weren't really around till the 15th/16th century and the style of cavalry blade that Sanya uses wasn't around till about 1908, I would assume the blades have been reforged previously since that leaves 2000 year gap from -33BC till the Calvary saber version of Esperacchius. I'm sure they've been reforged a few times, but not to many. I'm almost positive that the nail is the more important part.
Yes, it's been confirmed that Esperacchius and Fidelacchius have each been reworked in the past. Amorachhius, however, has not. It's probable that none of them were forged right then and there after Christ was pulled off the Cross; more likely, the nails had been kept as relics, and turned into the swords somewhere in the middle ages.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 28, 2012, 01:48:22 PM
Yes, it's been confirmed that Esperacchius and Fidelacchius have each been reworked in the past. Amorachhius, however, has not. It's probable that none of them were forged right then and there after Christ was pulled off the Cross; more likely, the nails had been kept as relics, and turned into the swords somewhere in the middle ages.
Yeah He was thinking maybe a trench knife instead of just pure knuckles know. The WWI era weapon that was a sharp knife with the knuckles attached to it for use in the trenches to punch down through enemy helmets. Therefore it'd have a sword(ish) shape and be able to still have his knuckles
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on February 28, 2012, 01:55:54 PM
Yeah He was thinking maybe a trench knife instead of just pure knuckles know. The WWI era weapon that was a sharp knife with the knuckles attached to it for use in the trenches to punch down through enemy helmets. Therefore it'd have a sword(ish) shape and be able to still have his knuckles

Just remind him that it'd be Weapon 1, not 3.  Also, it'd still be 4 refresh (as it can easily be concealed).
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 28, 2012, 01:59:33 PM
Just remind him that it'd be Weapon 1, not 3.  Also, it'd still be 4 refresh (as it can easily be concealed).
Yup he's got +5 in fists anyways he'll be doing good enough. Either way, I'm not sure how it's gonna happen unless a denarian gets ahold of the swords and screw um up
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: computerking on February 28, 2012, 05:45:22 PM
Yup he's got +5 in fists anyways he'll be doing good enough. Either way, I'm not sure how it's gonna happen unless a denarian gets ahold of the swords and screw um up
Or a Fae... Or a Vampire...
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Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Mr. Death on February 28, 2012, 05:49:51 PM
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That wouldn't just break the blade, that would unmake the sword--as in, ruin it and destroy its power entirely.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 28, 2012, 06:08:25 PM
Hmm Then how do we go about breaking the blade since it is unbreakable by the standards of the book? What happens when two unbreakable weapons collide maybe, a denarian version and a Sotc clash and each breaks maybe?
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: computerking on February 28, 2012, 06:22:06 PM
What happens when two unbreakable weapons collide maybe, a denarian version and a Sotc clash and each breaks maybe?
**The idea factory starts churning**
Oooh... Sword of the Fall? A sliver of a Fallen Angel's sword, shattered during the War of Angels, reforged into a Mortal weapon... What powers could it have? Hmmm.... Oh, Thanks for the idea!
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 28, 2012, 06:26:01 PM
**The idea factory starts churning**
Oooh... Sword of the Fall? A sliver of a Fallen Angel's sword, shattered during the War of Angels, reforged into a Mortal weapon... What powers could it have? Hmmm.... Oh, Thanks for the idea!
No problem I've gotten plenty thanks to my brief tenure here. Now I want this artifact in in my campaign as well. I could just imagine a Knight of the Cross vs. A (Insert evil sounding name here)
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Orladdin on February 28, 2012, 06:56:56 PM
A (Insert evil sounding name here)
Grim Guard
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: computerking on February 28, 2012, 07:19:41 PM
A (Insert evil sounding name here)
Marauder of Dissonance?
Cavalier of Corruption?
Carnifex Angelus (Latin for Executioner of Angels)?
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Orladdin on February 28, 2012, 07:44:09 PM
Marauder of Dissonance?
Cavalier of Corruption?
Carnifex Angelus (Latin for Executioner of Angels)?
Illblade of Malcontent
Damner
Templar of Sorrow


...  this is pretty fun.  ^_^
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Orladdin on February 28, 2012, 07:46:11 PM
To drag us back on topic, there's a lot of ways to do what you want -- that's the strength of the DFRPG -- pick the one that best suits your campaign's feel.

I love your "Luchador of Leviticus" idea.  :-D
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 29, 2012, 04:38:23 PM
To drag us back on topic, there's a lot of ways to do what you want -- that's the strength of the DFRPG -- pick the one that best suits your campaign's feel.

I love your "Luchador of Leviticus" idea.  :-D
Phrased like that...i think he's only second to our Steam Punk Iron man lycanthrope
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on February 29, 2012, 04:46:16 PM
What happens when two unbreakable weapons collide?

Um, the wielders of such weapons break instead.  Duh.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on February 29, 2012, 04:48:01 PM
That could work as well Inferrum lol
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Richard_Chilton on March 02, 2012, 06:07:25 AM
There was a good "holy warrior" vs "holy warrior" clash in a Simon R Green novel - "Just Another Judgment Day".  Below are spoilers for that book (which is one Jim Butcher probably read as he's cited Simon R Green as one of his favourite authors)
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There was another good "unbeatable weapon vs unbeatable weapon" in Saberhagen's Swords books.
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My advice?
When "unbeatable, backed by a god" weapons meet, look at:
1) The legends behind the weapon, and
2) How well each character has been following their beliefs.
Then make a judgment call.

Better yet, insert strange things into the scene to keep them from meeting.  A random gook gets in one character's way, one character is called away, someone slips and when he gets up the battle has swept his foe away from him, etc.  Basically, have the powers behind the weapons decide to keep them apart.

And yes, I can cite a book for this one too.
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Richard

Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Taskill_Mckennan on March 02, 2012, 12:31:24 PM
1. Good to see another fan of Simon R. Green, his secret History's books brought me to Butchers's.
2. I'm thinking the ideas set out above are not bad, and I will probably use them as we head into my epic war that's starting up soon hopefully
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Harboe on March 03, 2012, 02:39:23 PM
Carnifex Angelus (Latin for Executioner of Angels)?
Carnifex would be better translated as "torturer," as it is the act of changing flesh. Still, an awesome name. The title is a bit ambiguous, since you've left angelus in singular nominative. Personally, I'd call it "Carnifex Angeli"

There's also something to be said for a weapon warping flesh and causing pain rather than bringing a clean death. Appropriately, it may only be destroyed by the compassionate tears of an angel :)
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: vultur on March 05, 2012, 05:48:21 AM
Carnifex would be better translated as "torturer," as it is the act of changing flesh.

Really? The way I learned it, "carnifex" means "executioner" (or "butcher", which is the literal meaning - "carni-fex" means "meat maker").
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: computerking on March 05, 2012, 07:36:51 PM
Really? The way I learned it, "carnifex" means "executioner" (or "butcher", which is the literal meaning - "carni-fex" means "meat maker").
I learned it that way, as well (The character Carnifex from the Wild Cards series was said to have a name meaning "Butcher", but in looking it up online I found Executioner to be a more expected meaning. Of course, I haven't asked anyone who actually knows latin, so YMMV).
But torturer works just as well.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: devonapple on March 05, 2012, 08:02:22 PM
carnifex or carnufex ficis, m
caro + 2 FAC-, an executioner, hangman: carnificum cruciamenta: iacens Inter carnifices, Iu.: suus, his destroyer: tuus, employed by you: O carnifex, scoundrel.—A tormentor, murderer: meus, T.: civium, butcher: ad vexandam plebem creatus, L.

Lewis, Charlton, T. An Elementary Latin Dictionary. New York, Cincinnati, and Chicago. American Book Company. 1890.
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Becq on March 06, 2012, 12:39:02 AM
Carnifex (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1050178&_requestid=3311790)?  :)
Title: Re: Sword of the cross modification
Post by: Zenjoriki on March 06, 2012, 01:56:14 AM
To stick with the blade motif you could go with a katar or a pata. These are both gauntlet type blades. As for the remaking of the blade. Well If the powers above deem it necessary I'm sure they can arrange whatever they want to. Especially if one or more of the blades are out of the fight and they are needed immediately.